Joy Parrish

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This week we are joined by Gabriela Ulloa, a Cuban-American journalist and mental health advocate who spent the early years of her career working in Joy’s alternate-universe dream job: as the assistant to Amy Astley in NYC. Gaby and Claire discuss life changes, changing career paths, opening up about mental health, imposter syndrome, and age-based self esteem problems that never go away, no matter how old you get.

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 76: Too Young Too Old

Episode Date: May 27, 2021

Transcription Completed: June 8, 2021

Audio Length: 46:28 minutes 

Claire: You are listening to This is Joy and Claire. Today we are joined by Gaby Ulloa who is a Cuban-American journalist and mental health advocate. She’s also the cohost of the upcoming Thoughts May Vary podcast, which is launching in June 2021. That podcast illuminates story of lessons of personal development and mental health. Previously she was the assistant to the editor and chief at Architectural Digest, where she spent two years assisting Amy Astley and writing for the magazine. You can find her words in publications such as The New York Times, Architectural Digest, and more. Gaby, welcome to the podcast. So excited to have you.

Gaby: Hi. Thank you so much for having me here. It’s good to be here.

Claire: So, I just read your boiler plate bio, which is so great to catch everybody up from the basics. But tell us a little bit about who you are and your background.

Gaby: Yeah. So, like you said in my bio, I’m Cuban-American. Both my parents are Cuban immigrants. I always really start with that because I feel like it’s such a large part of my identity. I grew up in Miami, which there I didn’t even think about the fact that I was Cuban or that I was Latin because it was everywhere around me. It was really when I went off to school to college in George Washington in D.C. I was like, “Oh wow, my Latin identity is so deeply ingrained into who I am.” Yes, I always lead with that. I’m very proud to be Latina and to be a part of that community. I’m also a journalist. I think you mentioned I started my career at Architectural Digest. It’s funny when I say I started my career, that’s when I started my career post-college. But working has always been something that I’ve done since I was very young. My mom never let my sisters and I have summers off. We were always working at summer camp or volunteering or doing something. And throughout college, I was taking summer internships every summer and I was working in the fashion space and in the magazine space. I always knew I wanted to work in magazines. That was always the goal for me. Once I graduated from school in 2018, I moved directly to New York and basically started freelancing and applying to everywhere that I could find. That’s when a couple months later I ended up getting the job at Architectural Digest to assist Amy Astley. I really fell into design by accident. Because for me, the goal was Condé Nast. For those who don’t know, Condé Nast is a big publishing house that owns all the magazines that I’m sure you read, from Vogue, Teen Vogue, to Glamor, New Yorker, Vanity Fair, Architectural Digest. So that’s where I wanted to be. That’s sort of the big place to be. I basically was going to take any job that I could get. I’m definitely that mentality of I’m here to learn, I’m here to work, just throw me in and I’ll do it. When I was interviewing for jobs, I was interviewing for a bunch of closet positions. For people that don’t know, it literally is what it sounds. You’re in a closet, whether it’s a beauty closet or a fashion closet, just organizing whatever is in said closet. And I was like, yep, this is my way in. Around that time, the job to be Amy’s assistant came up, and Amy Astley – if you are not aware, she founded Teen Vogue, is a Condé Nast veteran, and she’d been at AD at the time for about 3.5 years. And I was like, you know, I don’t know anything about design. I feel like I just found my footing in fashion, but let me try this because I want to work for her. It was all about her. I wanted to learn from her. What a great opportunity to be able, at 22 years old, to learn directly from someone like that. So yeah, that’s how I got my start at AD. While I was there, I was assisting her, which was obviously a full-time job. And luckily, because she’s such a wonderful boss and really enjoys mentoring her assistants, she really made sure to have me know that she wanted me to grow. So right off the bat, she was like, “What are your interests? What do you want to do aside from being my assistant?” I told her that writing is what I wanted to do, so those opportunities then slowly began presenting themselves. Throughout those two years of assisting her, I was also writing for the publication, both for the site and for the actual print magazine, which was such a great experience. And then fast forward. October 2020, we’re in the thick of the pandemic. I decided it was time to go, and I ended up resigning and I’ve been freelance ever since. Throughout that whole process, I’ll just squeeze in, I started Should We Talk About It, which is a mental health IG TV show. That I started in May 2020. So, I was still working at AD. Like everybody else, mental health was kind of at the forefront of my mind throughout the pandemic. It’s been something that’s always been deeply important to me, but it wasn’t really until I started writing in that space. I had basically written as a favor pretty much to a friend of mind that has a blog that covers mental health. I wrote for them. I had gotten the call to do it right before the pandemic hit, but it wasn’t published until – I think it came out in March 2020, right in the beginning. That was sort of my “ah ha” career moment of this is the conversation I need to be having. I always searched for intersections in what I do, especially in the style and design fashion space. Those things can sometimes just feel really trivial. And so, I always tried to connect it, whether it’s fashion and politics or design and culture and how they all influence each other and mental health and beauty and so on. That was really when it clicked for me that this is the conversation I need to be having. And from there, everything all sort of snowballed, and that’s where the podcast was later born. But yeah, once I clicked that this is the path that I need to go on, the position to leave fell into place. That’s sort of how I’ve been freelancing for the magazines that I’ve been freelancing for now. While I still freelance for AD, a lot of the other new work that I’m doing with places like Byrdie, it’s a lot more focused on mental health and lifestyle and wellness. I could ramble about it forever.

Claire: So, as you were describing that, I was just imaging a Devil Wears Prada scene of walking in and being like, you actually have to have an interest in fashion. But I am interested in architecture.

Gaby: Yeah. I mean, it’s so funny. Whenever I talk about Condé Nast, that’s the first question I always get is how Devil Wears Prada is it. I mean, honestly, as a whole it’s pretty accurate. I got lucky. I won’t lie. But I did get very, very lucky in that my boss was I think one of the only editor in chiefs at the time there – she’s really one of a kind, and truly is such an incredible person and a great boss and really, really loves to mentor her assistants. So, I just got lucky in that.

Claire: That you did not get paired up with Meryl Streep.

Gaby: Right. But did have to interact with the other editor in chiefs, the big one that we all know. Beginning with my boss. It’s funny, all the assistants, we all just became friends with each other. Because you get it. We’re on a team here.

Claire: So, when did you relocate during the pandemic. Because I know that you spent a lot of 2020 living back at home in Miami throughout the pandemic, but did you start out March 2020 in New York City?

Gaby: Yes. So, I’d been living in New York for about 1.5 years at that time – no, about 2 years at that point. I was just in my new apartment that I was so happy to be in. I felt like I was moving in New York every – every time my lease came up, I left. And I finally felt like, okay, this is the place I’m going to spend a couple of years. And then the pandemic hit. I’d been in that space for about 6 months. Just like everybody else, thought I’d be home for about 2 weeks. I think the only reason I was going to go back too is my mom, my sister, and I were supposed to take a trip. We were going to be in London. Because every year, my vacations were planned around my boss’ vacation time. So, every year for her daughter’s spring break, they would all go as a family away for two weeks. So that was my big chunk of time off. So, I had taken two weeks off. Literally, March 14th was my first day off, and the world shut down March 13th. I was planning to go to London. Mom was like, you know what, London’s not happening. Why don’t you just come home for a little since you already took the time off? And she was like, I have a feeling this is going to get wild. Why don’t you – mother’s intuition. Why don’t you just come home. I’m like, okay, sure. So, because I’m me and I’m very organized and clean, I cleaned my whole apartment. I cleaned out my trash. I took out everything from my fridge. That’s just what I do when I travel. And thank God. But thought I’d be gone for two weeks. They’d told us March 30th to be back in the office. And it was really surreal thinking about it too because when we got the “go ahead” to go home, we were all sitting in a tiny conference room watching a video conference. They had brought a doctor in to speak to all the Condé Nast executives, and they were live streaming. It’s like my boss was in that room with all the other execs and editor in chiefs. And all of us worker bees were in one tiny little conference office listening to this. We were like, oh, maybe we should not be on top of each other right now. We all took the subway to get to work that day. 

Claire: We’ve talked about this so many times. We’re all going to have that story of here was the last thing that I did before the pandemic started that I didn’t realize was super gross at the time.

Gaby: I know. I think about getting on the subway every day and touching the poles. And even then, I wouldn’t even touch it with my hand. I would wrap my elbow around it. But still, you cough into your hand. You touch your face. 

Claire: Someone next to you, just breathing their air.

Gaby: Even just existing next to me is too much these days.

Claire: Just respirating, not into it. I know. I was in Southern California for a 90,000-person trade show that the company I work for had to cancel the night before it started. But I was across the street from Disney Land. We were like, aw, it’s cancelled. Can we go to Disney Land? Looking back, ew. 

Gaby: Ew. And the privilege that I was existing. I was reading back some of my messages with a friend of mine the other day, talking about my trip to London getting cancelled. And I remember I said to them, “Mom’s just being difficult. It’s fine. We’re going to end up going. It’s fine.” 

Claire: It’s not ideal, right. This is going to blow over.

Gaby: Like March 1st, around there. And my office was just disgusting too because fashion month had just happened. Everybody had to come back from – they were in Paris, and then they all went to Italy, and they all came back to New York. Everyone was sick. I was sick when I came home. So, to answer your question, March 13th flew back to Miami luckily. Thought I’d be there for two weeks, was there for almost 10 months. And then I moved to LA. 

Claire: So how long have you been in LA?

Gaby: I’ve been in LA since January.

Claire: When you had that realization that working for Condé Nast maybe isn’t the goal that you want to pursue anymore, you want to do your own thing, you really want to be talking about mental health, you had started this IG TV series. Talk a little bit about that and how that evolved into what you’re working on now.

Gaby: Definitely. So, I think I mentioned earlier, mental health has always been something that has been very, very important to me. I always felt growing up so deeply misunderstood, especially when I would talk about how I was feeling. I really just felt really alone in that. I couldn’t talk about it with people. And if I would talk about it, people would just think I was crazy. I always felt very misunderstood in that space. I think I mentioned, when I was able to write for my friend’s blog, they asked me to write about my personal mental health experience. I wrote about my experience at something called the Hoffman Process. Which is basically this week-long therapy retreat, which is the best way that I can say it. You basically go no phone, no books, no distractions whatsoever, and for a full 7 days you are just unpacking every single pattern that you have. Essentially rooting it back to your childhood. Did this come from mom or dad? Where did this come from? Unpacking it, then rewiring your brand sort of. A lot of guided meditations. Honesty it was the best thing I ever did. 

Claire: It sounds so intense. 

Gaby: It was a lot. It’s a lot because you’re jam-packing years of work basically into 7 days. It’s very intense. I always say I think everyone should go to Hoffman. I think everyone should do it. You learn so much about yourself. You leave there with such compassion for your parents and for yourself and so much forgiveness as well. But that said, there are a couple people in my life that have been like, oh, you think so-and-so should go? I’m like honestly no. Because they’ve never gone to therapy and they’ve never done work on themselves, and I think it would be toxic talk.

Claire: Right. Like, you don’t go to the Olympics if you have never been on a jog.

Gaby: Right. So, I definitely recommend it for people who are already – even if you haven’t gone to therapy, if you’re already aware that there’s something that you want to improve, then I think it’s for you. It’s just for those people that feel like they’re being forced into something that they –

Claire: Totally. If you’re not even open to that awareness.

Gaby: Exactly. So, I had done Hoffman right when I graduated from college in 2018. I went to New York to start working 2 weeks later. It set me up for success, honesty. I think nothing would have happened the way that it did if I hadn’t done Hoffman. So, when I wrote for this blog, I wrote about my experience. Of course, some of my friends knew that I had gone. And this was almost 2 years after I’d done Hoffman at this point. But most people just had no idea. And I was really nervous to talk about my experience. At this point, the people following me online were primarily people who knew me on a personal level. So that made me even more nervous to open up because I’m like these people can attach a name to a story. They know what I’m talking about. But it was so cathartic to write that article. And to publish that article was a whole other level. And then after that, just hearing – that would have been enough for me to say, this is what I want to be talking about. Because I feel like as a writer, we’re always searching for that excitement. It’s so funny. I talk to a lot of writers, and everyone always says once you start getting paid for writing, it’s no longer fun. I’ve always just tried to search for that spark again. I finally felt it again. Then on top of that, getting messages from people in my life that I knew and that I didn’t know just saying, either A, thank you for talking about this. Not a lot of people we know are. Or B, I went through something similar. Thanks for making me feel not so alone. I was like, okay, wait. No one’s talking about this, and on top of that I had felt such an intense stigma when I had returned from Hoffman. When I started opening up about it, the narrative was, “Gaby cracked, and her mom sent her to a mental hospital.” That was the narrative. Instead of being like, I actually went to go work on myself and this was a really cool experience. That’s something that now in 2021, no one would say, at least out loud.

Claire: Right. The stigma that was – and I think it is still there, especially among different types of groups when it comes to talking about therapy and especially intensive therapy.

Gaby: Absolutely. Especially in the Latin community. I feel like in all minority communities, and I can only speak for the Latin community, but it exists. It exists in the way that our parents were raised and in the way that they raise us. I always say that I’m very lucky that my mom is very open about these things. But a lot of people aren’t. So yeah, basically once I had written for – so to answer your question about Should We Talk About It – once the article came out in March 2020, I knew that something had to shift. I just wanted to find my footing and find my voice. I feel like my purpose on this planet is to tell stories and to help elevate other people’s stories, as well as my own. I was like, okay, I’m doing this with writing. What’s another way that I could do this? Okay, I could interview people and just record it. I’m the type of person that doesn’t just jump. I dip my toe in the pond before I jump all the way in. People are like, “Just do a podcast.” No, sorry, I’m not going to do that. I’m just going to upload it to Instagram. So, I started uploading these interviews that I was having with people in my life that I knew were in the same industry as me and particularly more influencer-type people. Because in my opinion, I had been seeing a lot of things just from the expert perspective, which of course is deeply important. And whenever people come to me with specific questions or things, I always remind them I’m a peer turned to an expert. I always direct people in the direction of an expert. But at the same time, I think that it’s so digestible and so humanizing to hear stories from “normal people,” especially these people who have made a career off of being on social media and have these facades up and to sort of break that wall down, ask them questions that they might not be asked or at least answer publicly. Really lets their viewers see them in a different light and a very helpful light, I think. So, I just started having those conversations on my personal Instagram. I just saw that there was something there. People were asking for more, and I was enjoying it more and more. And then I created its own page. It was all very new to me. It just sort of grew very organically. And yeah, I’ve sort of been searching for what the next iteration of Should We Talk About It would be. I always knew it was going to be the beginning, and I was laying the foundation for something bigger. But I just didn’t know what that was. I think that’s something that I wish I would hear more entrepreneurs talk about, especially because I am so young. Sometimes I don’t tell people how old I am because I don’t want them to think I’m not as smart as I actually am or not as capable or resourceful or whatever it is. Then I remind myself, no, embrace what you’ve been able to accomplish at – I turned 25 last week. So, embrace it. But yeah, I always knew I was laying the foundation with Should We Talk About It. Everything sort of happened organically. I’m allowing it to take that organic route. And now with this podcast, I think it’s time to bring in a different perspective. So, my cohost, she is a mental health expert and has worked in the mental health space for ten years. So, it’s interesting to have the peer and expert perspective. It’s still that same sort of conversational attitude of, if we’re here to destigmatize and normalize and ask you to talk about your mental health, we know that we need to share our vulnerabilities and our stories first, and that’s what we’re really trying to do with the podcast. 

Claire: I was going to say, with you being 25 and landing that dream job pretty early and moving to New York City and having this sort of glamorous, from the outside seemingly glamorous, get-whatever-you-want trajectory, it is always so important to hear the other side of that. And I’m doing all this work on myself. And things haven’t been easy. And we never talked about this growing up. And my community is not accepting of this conversation around mental health and having both-and. That, yes, you can be successful. You can get what you want. You can land that assistant job. You can start from scratch on a new project, whatever the case may be, while still having these really hard things that you’re working on and having these insecurities. We talk about this quite a lot. Joy is a mental health therapist. She’s been in the field for decades. We have that similar dynamic of, I just am sort of here as the voice of I don’t really like my feelings. I would prefer to not dive into them. I don’t want to dig stuff up from my childhood. If it is buried, let it stay buried. I am functioning just fine. But then you do have those moments where you realize, okay, what you were talking about of having that first piece published where people started really coming out of the woodwork and identifying with it. It’s that moment of connection of, I thought I was the only one. I think it’s so awesome when you’re having those conversations around mental health is that, at least how I’ve experienced it, it goes both ways. You know that you’re creating that feeling of validation and connection for someone else, but it also helps you to feel like, I also feel like I’m not alone. It’s great to be able to do that in service to a community. But it also can be so encouraging for yourself too to realize, okay, this is something that is really going to get m somewhere. I have experienced this talking about postpartum depression where you kind of have this feeling of I feel like I owe it to other people to be the person who they can think, “If they can talk about it, then I can start talking about it.” 

Gaby: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it’s so important to talk about, too. I’m the last person to ever be like, “Woe is me. Look at all my problems.” I’m the first person to check my privilege and understand that I had a leg up in certain situations. And it’s funny, whenever I hear people talk about when they go to where they are in their jobs and connections and this and that, it always comes from the dad’s side. For me, that was my mom. Both my parents and their families came here from Cuba with absolutely nothing, had to build what they had. My mom has worked her ass off to get to where she is and to make sure my sister and I have lived comfortable lives. I’m not shy to say my mom is the one that put me through private school and pay for my college. Because of her support, I was able to move to New York every summer and have unpaid internships. Which is also absurd, and that’s a whole separate conversation of the barrier to entry in these types of companies is ridiculous and starting salary at somewhere like Condé Nast is completely unlivable, and that just disqualifies an entire population of people. But by the same token, I think because I’ve had all of this lucky experiences, I feel like I do not give myself enough credit. That was something that I really learned at Hoffman was everything is truly relative, and that’s what I always try to talk about on my platform and Should We Talk About It. Everything is relative. To someone like me who I feel like I had a “pretty good” childhood. To be sitting in a room with people at Hoffman whose parents were addicts and abused them and passed way or whatever it was, these tragic stories that people had. No one in that room looked at me and was like, “Calm down, sweetie. Relax.” You know. Because everyone understands that I haven’t lived that experience. I’ve only lived my own experience. So, to me, this could feel like the end of the world. But to the person next to me, they gloss over it. I always try and emphasize, yes, understand how you got to where you are and check yourself when necessary. At the same time, I am going to stand up and say, no. I’m very smart, and I work my ass off. Yes, my mom helped me be able to have those unpaid internships. She didn’t know anyone in the industry that I was going into. Every single connection that I made was through a network that I built because I hustled and I stalked them on LinkedIn, and I kept in touch with all my old bosses. I worked my butt off, and I was a damn good assistant. And that’s why I have the connections that I have. I still work a ton and maintain those connections. I’m learning to give myself credit where credit is due because I think I allowed that privilege to then cancel out and negate everything else that I’ve worked for, if that makes sense. So, when I talk about mental health, I try and emphasize that too of like, everything is relative. You’re allowed to feel your feelings.

Claire: Yeah, we talk a lot about comparative suffering too. Of course, there’s always going to be someone out there that has it worse than you. Perception is reality. And where I feel like that phrase can feel a little belittling because it makes it seem like you’re just perceiving this. No, perception is reality. What I’m perceiving that I’m experiencing is what I’m experiencing. That’s my reality. And that perspective is important, yes. It’s always important to recognize other people have it harder. Things could be worse. But that doesn’t mean that what you’re going through is easy or that things aren’t hard. I think that that’s such an important perspective for us all to be reminded of. Especially women who I think really are so hard on ourselves to try to always push through that thing, not complain, not be the squeaky wheel, not be the one to speak up and say I’m having a hard time. Because you don’t want to be seen as being ungrateful or you don’t want to be seen as complaining or you don’t want to be seen as seeking attention, whatever that b.s. is. I think that what you’re describing around, hey, I know I’ve had it easier that some people, but things haven’t always been easy. And also, that doesn’t mean that it’s been a bed of roses this entire time. It doesn’t have to be either-or. It doesn’t have to be, oh my life’s been really hard and I’ve come up from the ashes. And it also doesn’t have to be, I’ve had a silver spoon this whole time. You know, everybody’s lives are a mix of those experiences. I think that it’s been really interesting to hear from your experience as somebody who – you know, I’m 33, Joy is 43. Most of our listeners are more in their 30’s and 40’s, kind of more of this like… what are we called now? Geriatric Millennials? I think that was the most recent headline. And the fact that I’m getting my social media news from LinkedIn probably tells you something about my life. And Joy I think is technically Gen X. It’s just interesting to hear that this conversation is still so relevant. Right now, especially. We’ve had this TikTok thing where we can’t part our hair on the sides anymore. It can feel very separate, this big distinction between the Gen Z. They’re just fighting tight the Millennials about all the things that we have to cancel or whatever. But to hear, no, we’re all still really going through this similar process. Not to turn this into an age thing, but it is still interesting to hear your perspective as someone who has gone through this past year really from a completely different lens than, like I have a family and was working from home. Joy is a therapist. She was still going into the office. For you to be somebody who your day-to-day life was really put on hold. You had to move back in with your mom, and now to have that big shift. But to hear the thought process and that mindset and awareness is still universal, it’s great to know that those conversations are still happening and continuing to happen at earlier and earlier ages.

Gaby: Absolutely. It’s so funny. First of all, I was born in ’96, which technically is in between Millennial and Gen Z, so I do not know how to identify. I feel like I pull from both, and that’s when I pick and choose and I get picky.

Claire: Zillennial, is that the thing? I don’t know, these are hashtags I get from LinkedIn, so don’t talk to me about being cool and knowing what’s up. 

Gaby: I love a LinkedIn influencer. I love it. Guys, don’t sleep on LinkedIn. It’s really great.

Claire: It’s pretty cool.

Gaby: But yeah, I don’t really know where to fall, but it is exciting for me to see the conversation just happening at least, in terms of mental health. Before, everything was just so stigmatized. And while these stigmas still exist, it’s why I am doing what I’m doing because they’re not gone. I think now what we’re facing aside from just stigma is everyone’s capitalizing on mental health. And that’s what we see now is brands just slapping a super tokenizing statement on a hoodie and selling it for $130. That’s not helping literally anyone. Or people not having trauma-informed people on their teams or licensed therapists on their team and they’re sending out deeply triggering messages to people. Or just posting sharable infographics that help no one and could actually be really triggering to someone. That’s something that my cohost Meadow and I always talk about. She’s not licensed, but she is trained. One of the companies that she works for, they have a hotline that the do. So, Meadow runs a hotline for them. So, she’s at least trauma-informed in that way. She still always points people in the direction of therapists and licensed professionals I should say. And now, we see, because people are talking about it, big businesses – they just see a dollar sign now. My friends and I always joke, “Self-care isn’t a face mask.” Even though the act of putting on the face mask can be your way of taking care of yourself that day. Your skin routine, you identify it as self-care. The actual $40 face mask is not healing your trauma from your childhood. Let’s not ignore it. Let’s actually unpack it and then maybe use that time to take a deep breath after you’ve done all the work and unpacked it.

Claire: So, you’re in LA now. When did you know that you were ready to leave Miami? Was it just kind of when the pandemic started slowing down? Did something push you to LA?

Gaby: So, I actually always wanted to come out here. It’s something that I’ve always wanted to do. I’ve always seen myself out here. I have family out here. My older half-brother – complex family tree over here – he has lived here for I think the past 20 years. So, I grew up being able to visit him. Something about LA always just called to me. When I was graduating from college, I actually wanted to move out here but knew that it wasn’t realistic for the career path I wanted to take. I knew New York had to be step one. It’s funny, my mentor at the time told me, getting a job in what you want to do in New York is one obstacle. Getting a job in what you want to do in LA is two. Don’t do it. That just stuck in my brain. I knew I wanted to come here. I just honestly thought it would happen in my 30’s. I thought it would happen when I was “established enough” and climbed up the Condé Nast ladder enough and I’d be able to go out on my own and do my own thing and be here. But the decision I think to leave AD and the decision to leave New York were hand in hand. Because once I made that choice and I made the choice that I didn’t want to get another full-time role at a magazine from Condé Nast, I was like, okay, there’s no point in me going back. I’ve also never been someone who’s really glamorized New York or romanticized it. I was like, I’m here to work. I love the hustle. I love the energy. I love that everybody there is working so hard, just as you are, and you all understand each other on this weird level because everyone’s stressed out all the time. But I was like, I’m living in a tiny apartment. I’m being paid no money. Everything is really expensive, and I’m really anxious every day on the subway. I’d rather not. So going back to Miami was sort of the reset that I needed. It really hit me how much I’d missed just space. Once I resigned, I was like, okay, my lease is up. I’m going to move everything out. When the time is right, once I’ve made enough money from freelancing in the beginning and saved enough – because that was another great thing and privilege that I had was I got to be home during the pandemic. I wasn’t spending any money. So, I saved all of that and was able to come out here and just start a new life I feel like.

Claire: With these new projects that you’re working on, being in LA, does that really feel like the location is going to help you get that off the ground? Does it just feel serendipitous that all of these new beginnings are coming together, or do you feel like LA is where I need to be for X, Y, Z reasons?

Gaby: I think all of the above. I think just in terms of the landscape, I think LA has always been my speed that way. You have the mountains, but you also have the ocean. You have space. I have a car here. A car brings me so much safety. Just knowing that I have my own space to get from Point A to Point B just makes me feel a lot calmer. But in terms of career, since I’ve moved here so many things have been put into motion so much quicker. I think that has to do with the type of place LA is, and I think it also has to do with my networking style where I definitely find people that I want to connect with and go for it and shoot my shot and do all those things. I talk to a lot of people who are graduating from school and are trying to get their first job, and that’s always what I tell them. LinkedIn, network. Instagram, network is the best thing to do. What I love about the energy here is that it really allows you to create your own path and pave your own road, and nobody looks at you funny when you’re doing it. You don’t have to explain it a hundred times. You tell them, “I’m a freelance writer who talks about mental health and wants to help people in that world, and I’m still figuring out if I want to start a company” and this, this, and that. “Oh great, good for you.” No one’s like, “What’s your return on that?” They trust that you can figure it out and you can pave your own road because that’s kind of what everyone else is doing too. So, it really has inspired me to work harder and to also believe in myself in a way that I didn’t because a lot of my friends here that are around my age or even younger are so successful at what they do at such a young age, it really reminds me that I can get things done very young. And that’s okay. Just because I haven’t reached a certain milestone in terms of years that I don’t know well enough to know what I’m doing and to make the right decisions now.

Claire: And honestly, not to be like, I’m so much older and wiser than you. But I’m in my 30’s. Joy’s in her 40’s. Age-based self-doubt never goes away. It just changes. You go directly from “I’m too young to do this” to “I’m too old to not have started this already.” There’s no in between. And maybe there’s some of you out there who are like, “That’s not true. I woke up one morning and was like, I have arrived at the age where I can achieve.” But I think really, you go straight from “I’m too young. No one’s going to take me seriously” to “I’m too old to know what’s going on and no one’s going to take me seriously.”

Gaby: I was talking about it with a friend of mine who’s 22, and she was telling me – she is so successful, period. And then being so successful at 22 is a whole other thing. She always tells me, “I never tell people my age because they don’t take me seriously.” I’m like, that’s so funny because before, I used to love that people knew that I was 24 when I was still 24. Because the reaction was, “Oh my God, you’re only 24 and you’ve done so much.” It was that reaction. And now that I’m 25 – and I’ve literally been 25 for about a week – what’s hit me is this feeling of –

Claire: You’re not so young anymore.

Gaby: Is it exciting? Am I still young? Do I qualify at that? Or am I just in this weird in between? I was talking about it the other day with a friend. Do you remember being in high school and being s sophomore in high school? No one cares about you when you’re a sophomore. You’re the irrelevant age. That’s how I feel right now.

Claire: That’s so funny. Maybe when you eventually get older and you become like Iris Apfel status where you’re just so iconic. When do you go from just being middle aged to being icon age? That’s the age I want to be. 

Gaby: Just doing whatever you want, and no one can say anything.

Claire: Yeah. Which maybe that’s every age and we just need to stop worrying about it.

Gaby: I think what it is, especially as women, we’re just told so many things all the time. We’re always told to calm down and relax and that we have to juggle 400 things at once and be moms and have natural birth and then also have a full-time job, obviously things that you can speak to but I cannot, but hope to one day. But yeah, I think that we need to step into our light more at any age. I talk to my guy friends.

Claire: This does not affect them at all.

Gaby: No. A friend of mine has been trying to negotiate a new role for himself at this company for about a year. He always sends me his emails to proofread, which is hilarious, and I love and I’m grateful that I’m that friend. But his emails are so wildly assertive that I get heartburn reading them. I would never send this. He’s like, “Gaby, you need to stand up for yourself.” I’m like, you never had someone knock you down 400 pegs and tell you to calm down and that you don’t deserve to be in a room. I was appalled at his emails. And he sent them and is getting that promotion.

Claire: And is getting it. Yes. One thousand percent. I have been talking about this with some coworkers. They’re like, “Do I go for this promotion? What do I do?” I’m like, “Listen. The men that I know would never think for two seconds – oh well…” I feel like there was a statistic that came out about this where women wait until they’re 90% qualified for a job listing before applying. Men will do it after like 30%. They read the first three, and they’re like, “Bachelor’s degree, 2-5 years’ experience.” You’re like, “But you’re an engineer. This is for design.” They’re like, “I don’t care. 2-5 years of experience.” Women don’t think that way, and we just need to.

Gaby: We have to. My sister is 28, and she’s in a role that she’s been told a million times she’s too young for. She told me when she was applying, she was so nervous about it. I was like, “You’re going to get the job. You’re going to get it. You’re so absurdly qualified that this is a no brainer.” Her mentor told her, “You just have to start acting like a man.” Start thinking like a man. Because no guy in your position would think, “Am I qualified enough? Are people going to take me seriously?” They just wouldn’t. It would never cross their mind because they never have heard those things before. So, they’re not conditioned to think anything else. 

Claire: Exactly. There’s no voice in the back of their head because they’ve never had that… and they’ve never heard… have you seen Mean Girls?

Gaby: yes.

Claire: Okay, thank God. I didn’t want to assume. You know when they’re standing in front of the mirror and she’s like, “I used to think there’s only fat and skinny, but now I know there’s all these things that can be wrong with you.” That’s sort of how I sometimes feel and definitely felt when I was younger when I would hear people say, “Oh yeah, and then I overcame this self-doubt about X, Y, Z.” I was like, oh my God, we’re supposed to be doubting that? Okay, I guess I’ll start self-doubting that then. Then on the flip side, you see someone out there. And we talk about this a lot when it comes to body image things. When you see someone walking around with their stretch marks, with their belly hanging out, with their pale skin, with their unibrow, whatever the case may be, and they are not walking around being like, “I don’t care, I’m doing it anyway.” They just don’t even mention it. It just doesn’t even register. And you’re like, oh. Do I have permission to not care about this? Then I guess if that person’s not even noticing it about themselves, then I guess I’m going to stop worrying about it on myself too. I feel like it’s the same way with those imposter syndrome, self-doubt feelings. If you see someone else out there who’s just going for it, it gives you permission to be like, if they’re not worried about coming across as being too outspoken in a meeting or if they’re not worried about coming across as being attention seeking by going for the promotion, then maybe that means I don’t have to worry about that either. 

Gaby: Exactly. I believe it was Ashely Graham. You know, Ashely Graham, the super model? Gosh, I want to say it was her. I know I was listening to her, but I hope that she said this and I’m not just making this up in my head. But I’m pretty sure I remember an interview of hers where she was talking about not enjoying when people call her a plus size model because she’s like, “I’m just a model. You’re pointing it out. I’m just a model. I’m a super model. I do the same thing the girl next to me is doing.” It’s exactly what you said of pointing out the “flaw,” but then we’re like, “I didn’t even notice. Let me add that to my list of insecurities. Thank you so much,” because the world hasn’t already done enough.

Claire: Yeah. Like the new conversation lately where it’s like, don’t call me “she-EO,” don’t call me a “mom-preneur.” Call me the owner and founder of this business. Call me entrepreneur. Call me the founder. Call me a CEO. I’m not a female founder. I’m a founder. Don’t call me the whatever X, Y, Z. Don’t qualify it. Don’t take me out of default. I read something recently that I loved that was like, if we could get away from centering men, then it would be the National Basketball Association and the Men’s National Basketball Association. It would the National Hockey League and the Men’s National Hockey League. Instead of the WNBA, the WNHL. If you didn’t make it so that it was the default we all understood to be the men’s league and then you also had the women’s version. What if we all understood the default to be the women’s version and then you had the men’s version. If reading this or thinking about this made you uncomfortable or blew your mind, think about why that may be. It’s so automatic for you to center men in that experience that it feels like writing with your opposite hand to think about the women’s version being the default. The thought experiments are endless.

Gaby: Yes, definitely. And then thinking about it, too, I grew up with a mom who is an entrepreneur. She was the only woman in every room that she was in. It’s very, very interesting to watch the way that she runs her company and watch what an emphasis she places on hiring other women. But also, just the reputation that she has in Miami. She’s a shark. She can be a bitch. It’s this narrative that you wouldn’t say about a man. You’d be like, he’s a beast. He’s such a baller, good for him. You would never ever deem anything else, but she feels as though she has to put on this persona because if not, she’s not taken seriously. Which is just so unfortunate.

Claire: Yeah. It’ll be interesting to see generationally how that changes, if it changes. I think there’s still so much resistance. And I also think it does come down to the women in those positions kind of owning it and saying I don’t want to be a “she-EO” or whatever the case may be. But for a lot of women, that makes it feel more comfortable. I am able to be more comfortable with my success if it’s a little bit qualified.

Gaby: Yeah, definitely.

Claire: Because that’s the role that I filled. On the flip side, why not emphasize that you’re a woman in that role? Why not lead with that? I think that’s valid too if that’s what feels true to you. But yeah, I think it will be really interesting to see how that changes. And then of course we’re going to have the whole fallout from the pandemic with so many women leaving the workforce. That’s it’s whole other podcast episode.

Gaby: Gosh, yes. I’m actually very curious to see the numbers after we’re able to really study this from a different perspective, about how many men who were unfortunately laid off ended up staying stay-at-home dads, versus women.

Claire: Right, versus women who had to leave their jobs –

Gaby: To take care of their children, so that their kid could literally continue an education.

Claire: Yeah. My husband’s a nurse. He was working on a COVID unit. I was working from home. I work in marketing. We were lucky enough to have an au pair who had moved into our house in January 2020. And that was just an amazing freak situation we found ourselves with. If we had not had that, I would have had to quit my job to watch the kids.

Gaby: Right, because what else are you supposed to do?

Claire: Right. He’s not working from home. He’s going to the hospital every day. He’s taking extra shifts. He’s working overtime. He’s working in other hospitals. And I’m here trying to be on meeting with my, half the time, one year old. It’s just, yeah. It’ll be really interesting to see in the coming years how things weave themselves back together. 

Gaby: And then you’re also in a position where your husband did actually save lives.

Claire: I mean, ours is a little bit of an extreme. He was on the frontlines doing the thing. But even if for whatever reason, I feel like women are the default for so many things.

Gaby: Absolutely.

Claire: So, I want to be respectful of your time. I know we’re coming up here on an hour. I want to hear a little bit more about your podcast that’s in development. If you want to talk a little bit more about what you’re excited about around that podcast. I know you’ve talked a little bit about your cohost, Meadow, which I love that her name is Meadow. That’s so LA. I don’t even know if she lives in LA, but I’m projecting that on her.

Gaby: San Diego, but yes.

Claire: California. What are you guys kicking off with?

Gaby: Yeah. So, we haven’t announced the actual date yet because you never know when things will be happening. But mid-June 2021 is what we’re going with as of right now. We’re both really excited about it. I’m just excited to continue to have these conversations on a regular basis. Honestly selfishly it’s so fun to get to hear other people’s experiences and meet all these incredible women and people in general. I always said that with Should We Talk About It, I just respected every single person that came on the show so much, and I’m going to feel the same with anyone who comes on the podcast. I’m going to have such a deep respect for them because they’re opening up in a way that they’re not used to, and that’s very different for them. Anyone who is taking time out of their day to talk about themselves in a different light, I’m just appreciative of. I’m very excited about that, and I’m very excited to learn from Meadow as well and become more well-versed in actually providing helpful solutions. I think that’s the number one thing that I’m always trying to do is, yeah, it’s nice to have conversations and to humanize us. And while I do think highlighting that invisible thing that connects us all that’s our mental health is deeply important, it’s also – you know, we were talking a lot about privilege in today’s conversation. That is always sort of at the forefront. Allowing mental health to become way more accessible. It’s heartbreaking that taking care of mental health is still a privilege. And while it shouldn’t be, it still is. I can’t say that me getting to go to therapy at noon on a Wednesday is common. When a single mom taking care of her kids and having to put food on the table and still going to work, a smoke break might literally be her self-care. It might be her form of taking care of her mental health. So that’s what I’m excited about with the podcast. Continuing the conversation, and continuing to hopefully provide helpful resources to people, and to continue to destigmatize this narrative and encourage people to take care of their minds. Because their mental health really does trickle into every other aspect to our lives. How are we going to be good parents, how are we going to be good partners, how are we going to perform well at work if up here mentally we’re not clicked in, we’re not doing great? So, I always just try to remind people in my personal life and now at the podcast that we’ve got to tap into that first because it trickles down into everything.

Claire: And where can people find you and eventually your podcast?

Gaby: So, people can find me on Instagram. I’m @gabyuloa_, and you can find the podcast at @thoughtsmayvarypod. It will also be linked in my bio on my personal page, should you be confused.

Claire: Awesome. And we will add your personal Instagram to the show notes. And then when your podcast is ready, let our listeners know about it. Our listeners know that if you have any questions ever about seeking out mental health, please just email us as Joy, as you all know, is a licensed mental health therapist. She is happy to help you find or navigate that system. We have a highlight on our Instagram called “Therapy,” which just highlights some very, very basics if you are looking for a new therapist, how to get started, how to look at different pricing options, how to find low-cost options if you don’t have insurance. So, check that out. Always email us. We are always more than happy to help. If you have ever emailed us in the past and we haven’t gotten back to you, as we say all the time, please feel free to reach back out. Gaby, I’m really excited to hear that you guys are starting this podcast, entering this space, and going to be encouraging people, and spreading stories of different mental health experiences. I think that’s so important. I’m really grateful that you took the time today to be on the show. Thank you so much.

Gaby: Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

Claire: And listeners, you can find us at @joyandclaire_ on Instagram. Email us at thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. We will talk to you next week. 

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 75: Mask Rules

Episode Date: May 20, 2021

Transcription Completed: June 6, 2021

Audio Length: 53:17 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: This is Joy and Claire. How’re we doing? How’s the mask wearing going? Because we just got the announcement this week from President Biden and the CDC that if you’re fully vaccinated, then you don’t have to wear a mask in “most” places.

Claire: Right.

Joy: I’m sure places can still mandate it if it’s business decision.

Claire: A lot of places are, yeah. The thing that I’m seeing is a lot of businesses that are writing on their social media, hey listen, we don’t have the ability, nor do we want to have to ask everyone who comes in here to prove that they’re vaccinated. So for now, we don’t really trust y’all.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: And so, a lot of places, like the coffee shop we go to, are saying still wear your mask because this is basically the honor system, and our employees don’t feel confident that only vaccinated people will not be wearing masks. 

Joy: Right. We don’t trust the people not getting vaccinated to abide by the mask wearing.

Claire: Yeah. I think that’s legit because I think a lot of people who are not interested in getting vaccinated… there’s a large overlap in my experience of talking to people – in the Venn diagram of people who are not interested in getting vaccinated –

Joy: Be careful. Be careful.

Claire: I know. And people who have been begrudgingly wearing masks. So, I think –

Joy: Just saying there’s a Venn diagram that is overlapping.

Claire: I think a lot of people out there would agree and have had that experience as well. I appreciate the businesses and will very much be interested to see what happens. I think that it’s great that the business still have their own ability to do that. It will also be interesting to see the businesses that are like, great, we don’t care. Maybe restaurants who are like, finally, this is going to make things so much easier for us. Like the gym I go to, which I’ve been talking about this whole time, has been so good about masks. They were the first ones to be like, “We don’t have to wear masks anymore. This is so amazing.” And I kind of was like, okay, you know, I’ll see how I feel. And everyone has said you can wear it if you want, but we all kind of know… it’s the mask thing. You wearing a mask doesn’t protect you from other people around you. It protects them from you. 

Joy: Yes.

Claire: So, it’s a little bit hard to be like, “You’ll be fine if you’re wearing a mask.” That’s not the case. And that’s been the problem this whole time is you can wear the mask as much as you want, but if the people around you aren’t wearing masks, then they’re not as effective or not effective in the same way. I’m feeling a little apprehensive about it. 

Joy: Are you? I am too. I am too. I was talking to Scott about this because he got a notification – he goes to Orange Theory, and he’s been doing masked workouts. I’ve been doing the same thing when I go to the gym. I have been wearing masks the whole time. It’s not a big deal. By the way, if you want the best workout mask if you’re going to still wear a mask when you work out, the Under Armor sport mask is the best because you can actually breathe, and it’s great. So, the message to him was like, there’s a maskless workout. And they made it a point to say you don’t have to wear a mask. I was like, again, how do we know that everyone is being honest that they have been vaccinated? Why don’t they say, follow the CDC guidelines about mask wearing, instead of being like, “It’s a maskless workout.” I think that would be a smarter way to do it. Then Scott was like, you can’t ask people if they’ve been vaccinated. Can’t they just as least say, hey, we’re trusting that you’re being honest and following the rules. You don’t have to go up to the person to be like, “Show me your CDC card.”

Claire: That’s what the CDC is doing though. They’re saying, “Come on, guys. We’re all in this together. Please only take your mask off if you’ve been vaccinated.”

Joy: I know, but we have been this whole time –

Claire: I know, that’s the concerning thing.

Joy: This is the frustrating and angry part where I get angry. There’s the anti-vaxers, there’s the anti-maskers. We’re still bumping up against that where we’re in this huge group project with the world, and there’s people who aren’t playing by the rules.

Claire: And the answer is, well, if you’re fully vaccinated, then the data show that you don’t have to worry about that anymore.

Joy: Right, the data.

Claire: I mean, truly.

Joy: I know. It’s important to read data.

Claire: It’s important to do that. And I think that the shift in mindset about the vaccine versus the mask has been hard for me to remind myself that – like I was just saying, it wasn’t enough just for your to be wearing a mask, so that’s why it very much felt like, hey guys, my wearing a mask doesn’t count for a whole lot unless everyone else is doing it. And of course, the vaccine is the same way if we’re looking from a herd immunity standpoint. But when you are looking at an individual standpoint, the vaccine is effective if it’s only you. From a public health standpoint, again, it’s a different conversation. You need to have as many people vaccinated as possible for it to be effective. But if you are the sole vaccinated person in a room of unvaccinated people and someone comes in and has COVID, you’re going to be okay, so says the data and so says the science, and we believe the science.

Joy: We believe in science, and we believe in data.

Claire: That’s the thing is, it’s sort of like, hey vaccinated people, we get it. We still really, really need to be encouraging as many people as possible. We’re doing more vaccine drives. We’re trying to get more information out there.

Joy: By the way, can I just tell you something so amazing? And of course, Scott knew about this. Oh my gosh, I feel so stupid. I don’t know this rapper, let me Google. I think it’s Duplo.

Claire: Diplo? I think that’s how you pronounce it. Dippin’ Dots?

Joy: Okay, yeah. Sorry. 

Claire: Duplo is the giant Legos. 

Joy: So not Duplo. Yeah. I was like, “Duplo.” Diplo. “Thomas Wesley Pence, known professionally as Diplo is an American DJ.” Sorry that I have to Wiki this. He had a show at Red Rocks recently. Red Rocks is our amazing venue in Colorado. If you ever have a chance to go see a concert there, we always love it. Or just go walk around, it’s beautiful. He had a concert there. And he was telling everybody, encouraging everybody, he probably spent some money on some vaccines and had a vaccine site at the top where people could go get vaccinated during the show. And you got a free t-shirt if you got vaccinated. You got a Diplo t-shirt. That is how you do it. You at the show be like, “Hey everybody, let’s be safe. There’s plenty of people who don’t have access to go to a vaccine site. Maybe they don’t have a ride.

Claire: I mean, I don’t know. If you’re at a Diplo concert at Red Rocks, you have a ride.

Joy: But no, seriously, what if you’re the biggest fan and you’re like, I gave all my money to go to this show and I don’t always have transportation. And he’s just like, “Here’s some vaccines. I’m putting it right here. Go get a shot, and then enjoy the show. Let’s work towards herd immunity.” Anyway, I just thought that was really cool.

Claire: Yeah. I saw one where they were doing it at A-Basin where you could ski up and get it.

Joy: Amazing. All of that.

Claire: Getting creative. I appreciate it. I have definitely heard from people, and not so much people in our age group, but definitely older people and maybe even some younger people who are a little less gung-ho to go get it who are like, “I just can’t find an appointment.” It’s like, well then, let us bring the vaccine to you wherever you may be.

Joy: Wherever you are. And if you look at your governor’s website, there’s probably a million vaccine websites. There’s a lot of walk-in clinics across the state wherever you are.

Claire: It’s getting easier.

Joy: Yeah, it’s getting easier and easier for sure. So, I’m just going to read a couple quick Q&A from our governor’s website if you’re worried about the vaccine. “Has this vaccine been tested enough?” We hear that a lot. “This vaccine is the result of years of research and unprecedented testing.” So, coronavirus is not the only… COVID-19 –

Claire: COVID-19 is not the only coronavirus, is what you’re trying to say.

Joy: Thank you. Yes, exactly. It’s not like they just all of the sudden decided to work from this vaccine only. So, people need to understand and do some reading around that, because this has been years and years of research that they put into this specific vaccine. “Do I have to get the vaccine if I am young and healthy? It’s important to vaccinate 70% of all” – this is Colorado – “all Coloradans so that we can protect everyone. Does the vaccine give you COVID-19? The vaccine for COVID-19 cannot give you COVID-19. Does the vaccine cause serious side effects? You may have minor side effects. With serious side effects, it’s highly unlikely. Are there long-term effects? Millions have received the vaccine, and no long-term effects have been detected.” So, again, just kind of encouraging you to read –

Claire: And that’s the tricky one, right? It’s like, yeah, this particular vaccine they’ve been studying for a year. But a year to most people doesn’t sound like long-term effects. But I was really interested to find – because that was one of my questions was what if 30 years down the road, we all develop pink eye or who knows what. But I came to find that no vaccines are tested for 30 years down the road. The only data that is collected ongoing on vaccines is if there’s something that’s – like you wouldn’t give a bunch of people the chicken pox vaccine, and then 30 years down the road when they all start getting pink eye think, “Oh, it must be caused by the chicken pox vaccine.” There aren’t any studies like that. Which to me was kind of like, oh, I kind of wish there were. But at least it’s good to know that this isn’t the only one that we don’t do this for and we’re just kind of trying to tell everyone, “Shh, it’s fine. It’s fine. Take it, take it.”

Joy: Right, right, right.

Claire: And I mean, look at the chicken pox vaccine. My kids both got the chicken pox vaccine. I got chicken pox when I was a kid. I mean, it sucked, and you’re at risk for shingles later in life. But that being said, there is not a lifetime of evidence about the chicken pox vaccine. All that to say that new vaccines come available all the time without those very long-term amounts of data. I get it. 

Joy: I absolutely get it.

Claire: There’s questions. And it’s a unique situation that most of us have not been in in our lives, to have to make a decision like this.

Joy: Sure, sure, absolutely. And everyone has the right to make their choice about their bodies. I think that this – I’ve said this before – this particular vaccine comes with a lot of politics, which I think is unfortunate because it kind of drowns out the actual data and the actual science even. Dr. Fauci can sit there and tell you all the facts, and people are going to politicize Dr. Fauci. So, I think for anyone on the fence about getting the vaccine, I would just really encourage you to do more reading from multiple sources and listen to the experts. Truly listen to the experts because at the end of the day, we’re really all in this together and it really is saving lives. 

Claire: So – 

Joy: I do want to say really quick. As far as the mask-wearing. Because I went to Costco yesterday and they still are requiring masks. And I’m just prepared to go everywhere with a mask now. Just because the mask mandate has been lifted and the CDC is saying anyone who is fully vaccinated, which I am, can go places without a mask, I still feel a responsibility to protect others. And I don’t know – I mean, even though I’m safe, I just am still wanting to protect other people. Which I’m not trying to be some martyr, and I’m not saying if you don’t do that you don’t care about other people, but I just feel like that is something… [laughing] Claire. Well, maybe. [laughing] But I feel like going into a store and wearing a mask, the other part that I think about over the past year is I haven’t been sick in over a year. Masks work apparently. And washing your hands.

Claire: I know, isn’t that interesting. And there’s other reasons that masks work. My favorite thing that masks work for are covering the giant, freaking cold sore I’ve had on my chin for the past week and a half that I otherwise –

Joy: And no one’s going to question why you’re wearing a mask.

Claire: No, no one’s going to be like, “Uh, you have a cold sore the size of a small child just hanging out on your face.” I’m like, haha, you can’t see it. I’ve seen a lot of funny tweets that are like, man, the CDC couldn’t have given us a count down? 

Joy: I look like crap. [laughing]

Claire: Exactly. But I will also say though it has felt good to go some places without masks. Like I went to a friend’s house the other day, didn’t even bring a mask with me. It was somebody’s house. I feel like we can stop doing the justification for every single scenario. 

Joy: Sure, right, right.

Claire: But it was like, I got out of the care. And even though I’ve been vaccinated for a few weeks and most of my friends have been vaccinated longer than I have even. I still at least walk into someone’s house with a mask on, and then sort of do the “Are you okay if I take this off?” thing.

Joy: Totally, I’m the same way.

Claire: Yeah. It just feels more like a curtesy to be like, hey, I want you to know my expectation. I’m fine with this. If you’re okay with me taking it off, I will. If not, I’ll leave it on.

Joy: Yep.

Claire: And in this situation, I didn’t even take one with me. I didn’t even have one in the car, and I was like, this is weird.

Joy: It feels free. Yeah. We had our first in-person puppy class with Cadet yesterday.

Claire: Yeah, I saw your Instagram story. How fun was that?

Joy: It was really cool. We have to do two puppy training classes a month, and we’ve been doing them all virtually, which has been fine, but it’s just not the same for the dogs. So, one of the trainers did it kind of in her driveway, which was great. And I showed up with a mask. And she was like, “Everybody just do what you’re comfortable doing based on the guidelines that we just heard from yesterday,” blah blah blah. So, everyone chose not to wear a mask. We were outside, and I felt fine with it. I felt like everyone else did too. But I think the going into the stores still wearing them, I’m going to respect the store.

Claire: Being in a big group of people. Yeah.

Joy: I’m going to respect the store’s policies. If the store is deciding to make a decision about something, then I’m going to respect what the store has to say.

Claire: And I think it’s interesting to have that sort of flipped now because a month ago, it was like stores can’t just decide whatever they want. You have to listen to the governor. And now we’re like, stores can do whatever they –

Joy: It’s 100% the flip flop, which I find so funny and it even feels a little hypocritical saying it. Totally hypocritical saying it, but I think what’s funny is one of my good friends texted me the other day. He’s like, you know, it’s kind of funny now that people don’t have to wear masks that don’t like the president, they don’t have anything to be pissed off about around masks. I think that was one of the big f*** you’s is “I’m not wearing a mask,” but now what he kind of alluded to earlier is the people who probably won’t get vaccinated are the ones who don’t really want to wear masks all the time. Not everybody. Don’t freak out. 

Claire: It’s not everybody.

Joy: Don’t send me hate mail.

Claire: I think it’s interesting. And I feel like this happens in every social scenario that you want to defer to the highest degree of safety. It’ll be interesting to see over the next couple of weeks – I know a lot of people are having these same feelings of like, okay, I get it, technically it’s allowed now, but am I personally ready? 

Joy: Are we ready?

Claire: And how do I personally feel? I might be vaccinated, but I still have complicated feelings about it. What about the workers? What about all these different things. And last week we talked about how quickly old experiences feel normal again. 

Joy: Traveling. Getting on a plane.

Claire: The first time you go out to eat at a restaurant. The first time you go back to a concert. The first time where you get in an Uber again where at first you’re like, “I don’t know, is it going to be weird?” and within a couple of minutes, “Oh, this is fine.”

Joy: Totally. It’s my normal again.

Claire: And so, I’ll be interested to see over the coming weeks. We’ll be like, I actually don’t think about brining masks with me anymore. That anxiety went away immediately. And I was freaked out the first time I walked into a store with a bare face, and now I can’t believe we did that for a year and a half.

Joy: I’m really excited, and I’ve been seeing some posts recently of people taking vacations and saying, “Oh my gosh, it feels so good to be back here.” I loved seeing that because I know how hard we’ve all been working to keep everybody safe. The last point I’ll make about this is just the going into the stores thing is when stores, whether or not they make their policy still, I’m going to respect whatever the store’s policies are or whatever facility I’m going to be going into. But I noticed a reaction yesterday when I went into one of our local grocery stores is when I was leaving with my groceries, I saw a woman walking in with her son and they didn’t have masks on. But the store still had this “please wear a mask” policy. All I could think was like, what’s going to happen in there. Because you know, we have these opposite rules, and I don’t know. I think it’s just interesting on a social, psychology level to be like, how are we going to be taking this information because we’re still apprehensive. And I’m still concerned for the people who aren’t vaccinated. But last night, Scott and his best friend went out to at Edgewater Public Market, and he’s like, “It was packed. It was so cool to see everyone just out and about.” You still wore masks when you walked in, but he was like, “We were able to sit at a table with people, and people weren’t freaking out.” It was crowded. People were giving these food establishments business. Another concern I have is making sure that our local businesses get money and people patronize them and people go back out into the community.

Claire: And that’s been the tension this whole time, right, is it’s about small businesses, it’s about the economy, it’s about people keeping their jobs. Anyway. 

Joy: Yeah, I think that’s a hard one. One last thing. I think that’s always been a hard thing because I never want it to come across as we don’t care about small businesses. But that was really hard of which battle do you choose because you want everybody to be alive because this pandemic was so bad, but you also want small businesses to survive. I think that was always a hard thing for me to wrap my head around. No, we have to shut down. We have to shut down so that the numbers go down and the frontline healthcare workers can survive and that people can live, but at what cost?

Claire: That I think was something that if you look at more of the government response, to me that was where that should, could have come from was, okay, let’s give the businesses what they need to pay their employees without having to turn this into a people’s health versus economy.

Joy: Exactly. The government should have, yeah, totally agree with you.

Claire: And you know, the current government and the former government, I think they both could and should have been doing a lot more to provide stimulus to businesses and individuals. And that is, you know, I lean almost to the point of socialism with a lot of my economic beliefs, so I know that that can be seen as sort of, like – I won’t even say socialism because true socialism is not what I’m talking about here. Socialist democracy. It’s so interesting, sometimes I post on my Instagram, and people who live in more social democratic countries like Sweden or Denmark or places, they’ll send me notes and be like, “Why do people in America think that it’s either capitalism or true socialism?” And this is a whole other podcast episode. It’s like a whole other podcast, but it is so interesting to realize that is where our brains go is straight into straight up socialism. But anyway, the point of the story is that I really do believe in the role of government to financially be involved in people’s lives. And then we did not see that. I think that is what created that tension and made a lot of that tension a lot worse. Okay. So, I want to talk completely different topics now. We did just spend quite a lot of time talking about some serious pandemic stuff that everyone is probably so sick of thinking about and so tired of talking about.

Joy: You know what though, we’re tired of talking about it but it’s our everyday life. I selfishly want to have this podcast be a little bit of a time capsule. I don’t ever go back and listen to episodes, but maybe I will one day and be like, wow, what was it like?

Claire: But I could, just to know that I could.

Joy: To know that I could. What was it like when we were living during the pandemic? Or even someone who’s born ten years from now that’s like, oh, I really want to know what life was like during the pandemic. We’re going to be a piece of history, Claire, is basically what I’m saying.

Claire: We’re going in the Smithsonian.

Joy: Please have a Smithsonian about podcasts and please put us in it. Thank you.

Claire: I mean, they should. They’re going to, I’m sure.

Joy: That’s really funny.

Claire: So, talk a little bit more about Cadet’s puppy training class because we get questions all the time asking, “Hey Joy, I know that the CCI thing is completely its own deal, but where do you recommend people go just for day-to-day puppy training?” I’ve been texting you with questions of like, “Hey, this has been happening. Is this normal?” You’re like, “Yeah, it’s normal.” It’s sucks – like the biting thing. 

Joy: Puppy biting stage is not –

Claire: And then I was doing some research last night because River straight up will go after me. And no one else in the family. If she sees me, she will stop what she’s doing and come over and bite me. I was doing some research about it, and it was like, this is common for the person in the house that they see as the mother figure.

Joy: Alpha.

Claire: Yeah, an alpha. It was like, completely ignore it. I was like, “Have you ever tried ignoring being bitten by a bunch of needles?”

Joy: They’re razors. Puppy teeth are razors, and they are so painful.

Claire: And she always goes for the back of my knee and the back of my triceps, and I’m like how does she know.

Joy: That that’s the most tender part of your body.

Claire: She can’t go for my bony wrist or something. She has to go for the exposed, delicate flesh. 

Joy: Oh gosh, I totally remember. And it’s very shocking.

Claire: And I love the tips that are like, “Just ignore it.” Have you ever been bitten by a puppy and tried to just ignore it?

Joy: You can’t ignore it. You can redirect, but you can’t ignore it.

Claire: But anyway. I wanted you to talk about, what do you tell people, what do you recommend? And we can sort of reference this once and for all when people send you that question.

Joy: Sure. Right, right, right. So, my first and foremost recommendation is just get your dog into some obedience training. I don’t care what it is. It could be at your local PetSmart, at your local Petco. Those are two of our pet stores in the US. Any local pet shop that offers obedience training, do it. It doesn’t matter that it’s any specific style of training, as long as you like the trainer, as long as you feel like the dog is responding, as long as the class sizes aren’t too big. Here’s the other thing. In a class size with puppies, they’re going to be distracted, so there’s a level of – sure, the training is going to be a little scattered at times because they’re just distracted around other dogs, and that is totally natural. So, you want to sign them up for success and put them in an environment where there’s enough space where they don’t have to get too distracted being closer to another dog. But obedience training or any other type of basics training for dogs is what I would recommend. So don’t get too tied up on the type of training or what kind of program they should do. Because if you don’t train your dog, you’re setting yourself up for a really horrible relationship with your dog. I’m not saying that that happens with everybody, but for the most part your dog needs training. Your dog needs structure. Your dog needs to know who’s the alpha in the house, where their place is in the pack. If you even just want to read up and watch some – I don’t always ascribe to Cesar Millan’s ways, but he does have some good kind of how to interact with a dog, so you can watch some of his shows.

Claire: Kind of like how to think about being around dogs. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: He has some pretty interesting books too that are pretty easy reads.

Joy: Yeah. He’s kind of the more popular guy in the dog training world. There’s some things that I don’t really think that are necessary, but there’s also a couple Netflix shows that I can’t say that they’re good or bad because I haven’t watched them yet. There’s mostly shows around how to train the dog from hell, and I just don’t think that that’s realistic either because not every dog is going to need that type of training. As young as you can, start training your dog. Without going into the very nitty gritty details, even if you get a puppy that’s eight weeks old, don’t stress over training the dog stuff from day one. Get the puppy comfortable in your home. Give them some time to just relax. Make sure it’s a nice environment, that they’re integrating into your family well. Start to teach them their name by just talking to them with their name. And don’t worry too much about that. And then just really stay consistent. Any type of training that you do, it doesn’t work unless you’re consistent. With dogs, the rule of thumb in training is to do 2–5-minute sessions at a time. So, our trainers always talk about breakfast, lunch, and dinner is kind of how we think about it. You always eat breakfast, you always eat lunch, and you always eat dinner. Generally speaking. Think about training your dog 2-5 minutes at a time breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Dogs don’t have the attention span to do long training sessions, and you will know pretty quickly when they stop responding. Those are the pieces of advice I like to give as far as being consistent. It doesn’t take a lot of time, but you just have to do it every single day until they really get to it. And once they get older, you can teach them other tricks if you want to. But I will give you a resource of a former CCI trainer who has an amazing Instagram account with really great dog training tips, and she also does video sessions. I love supporting her because she’s such a wonderful human. Her Instagram is @rockemdogtraining. Follow her on Instagram. Give her a DM if you want to do a private session with her on Zoom. She’s really great. I’ve done a few with her with Cadet when Cadet was really small. You would think, how do I do a Zoom training session with a dog. It is possible, and she’s so good that she knows what she’s doing. She can see behaviors even on a Zoom camera. I would highly recommend if you’re looking for an actual resource. But just the basics of getting your dog structure and getting your dog some commands and some training is going to go a long way.

Claire: Yeah. And most Humane Societies or dog shelters in your area will have classes. Especially if you have puppies, they’ll have puppy classes. Our local Humane Society, once your dog has all its shots – I think it’s funny talking about a fully vaccinated dog now. I just laugh. Once they’re fully vaccinated, they have drop-in puppy classes on Saturday for five bucks. And literally the whole point of the class is just to introduce your dog to other puppies. When we had our previous dog Luna, who we talked about, like I said we don’t know what her background had been, but based on some of her behaviors and some of her physical stuff she had going on, we think that she had just been left in the yard her whole entire life and never had been socialized at all, never had been trained at all for anything. She wasn’t even house broken, and she was two years old. It takes two weeks to house break a dog, even a puppy. River is 12 weeks old at this point.

Joy: Oh, it took us three months.

Claire: Really?

Joy: Oh yeah.

Claire: An adult dog?

Joy: Oh, an adult dog. I was thinking a puppy. Cadet was five, six months before she was fully potty trained.

Claire: No. And River is probably 80% of the way there. But if you have an adult dog, it only took us 2-3 weeks to house train Luna. All that to say, she was two years old, she wasn’t even house trained. No one had ever spent two seconds with this dog. So, we ended up using a very intense trainer with her. She actually went to go live with the trainer for a week or two. I think to your point, you just have to find something that works. It’s like a diet. I mean, a diet is a terrible example. It’s like a workout 

Joy: It’s kind of like any relationship.

Claire: It’s any habit. It doesn’t matter the specific one that you choose. What matters is that the one you choose is the one that you can stick with. 

Joy: Yep.

Claire: I obviously don’t have as much experience as you. But the reason I don’t love the Dog Whisperer stuff and those types of YouTube channels is because it is dog from hell, and you’re like – 

Joy: What I if I have a normal dog?

Claire: What if I have a normal dog, and I just need them to stop biting my triceps?

Joy: Exactly. And it’s mostly too just learning about puppies and learning about puppy behavior and learning about when it’s appropriate to socialize them more. And learning to look at signs if they’re exhausted and they need to stop training. There’s so much that goes into it of just learning about dog behavior and how dogs learn was probably the biggest piece of advice and information I learned when I trained with JT. So, I trained with him on site with professional dog trainers for two weeks, and I learned so much about dog behavior. And if you don’t understand how a dog learns, negative doesn’t really register with a dog. People who hit their dog, yell at their dog, slap their dog only makes the dog fear you. And fear can turn into aggression. So, learning all of those things about dog behavior is really important so that you don’t fall into the trap of rubbing your dog’s nose in pee or poop when it goes to the bathroom. That is the worst thing that you can do because they do not attribute their behavior – dog’s attention span is like five seconds. So, if they pee or poop –

Claire: Well yeah, the cause and effect is not –

Joy: Does not relate. So, if you do that and it was like an hour ago, they’re going to be like, “I don’t know what you’re doing now. I’m just afraid of you.” So, a lot of training things that you think might be – I don’t know where you learned it, or it’s something that you picked up from someone else – it’s not going to be effective, and your dog is actually going to regress or get fearful or scared of you.

Claire: And honestly, it can be hard when a dog comes up to you and they have a log of energy. They’ve been pushing your buttons all day. And they come up and they start nipping at you. It’s really hard to not want to be like, “Just get out of here!” And have that physical reaction. We’ve had to work on that with Miles. Particularly his reaction is, if she starts biting him, he wants to really aggressively push her away. And I think that that’s instinctive. If something is just making you crazy, it can be hard to not want to have a physical reaction. Anyway. It’s been interesting to go through this. We were like, “Oh, we can handle a puppy.” We had this super high maintenance adult dog who was truly so neglected, and it’s just so different. And I think that we are also having a lot of experiences of like – When we had our previous dog, she was such a specific high needs animal that now when the puppy does something, I’m like, oh my gosh. Is this going to be a problem forever? Or is this something that she’s going to grow out of? Or is this something that if I don’t nip this in the bud immediately, am I setting myself up for a lifetime of this? Because when we had the adult dog, this was a habit and every time you allow it, you’re going to make it worse.

Joy: Yeah. You’re going to have a different dog every time. That’s the thing that is pretty clear when you get a puppy is you think that they’re misbehaving, but the next month it’s totally different. And they all have regressions as well. But the last thing I’ll say about this – I’m happy to answer more questions if you guys have them. I’m not the expert dog trainer, but I definitely know what I’m talking about with most things. Most of the time, when a dog is misbehaving, it’s because of the trainer or the handler or the owner. And by that, I mean you’ve missed something that they’re needing and you need to regroup and maybe talk to a professional trainer. Nine times out of ten, it’s not the dog, it’s the trainer. So, for example whenever JT would have something that he did incorrectly, I’d be like, oh it’s because I’m doing this. It’s never the dog. It’s the handler not giving the right direction or not setting them up for success. So just a little tip on that too.

Claire: Just a little hit to the ego real quick.

Joy: Yeah, so just check out obedience training and go to @rockemdogtraining on Instagram. Chelsea is her name. She is awesome. Awesome, awesome, awesome.

Claire: How is Cadet doing? I know we checked in a couple weeks ago about the difference between how will you know if she’s going to pass?

Joy: Well, we don’t know. You hope. We were a little nervous to go to the in-person class just because we were worried. Like what if she isn’t doing well. 

Claire: Because you haven’t had any comparison, yeah.

Joy: Yeah. We’ve done some events with a couple other puppy raisers in the past year, but it’s been pretty few and far between. Like when we went to the Boulder Police Department, we got to see other dogs, and it kind of gave me some reassurance that, okay, she’s on the right track. Because you could kind of see where she’s at and compare her to some of the other dogs that were there. But she did great yesterday. And she was the oldest dog there. We were just a team of five. There were four other dogs there. Two were really tiny, new puppies. One was five months old, and one was six months old. So, she was the oldest dog there, and I thought she did really, really great. They learn really fast, and there were a couple of commands that I wanted the trainer to go over with me to make sure I was training correctly. And I was, so I was just like, o] “kay that gives me some good confidence. But I think I was just mostly nervous to get there and for the trainer – who’s amazing. She’s so nice, and she’s so not judgmental –

Claire: And she would never be like, “Gosh, what have you been doing this whole time?”

Joy: Totally. She’s so supportive and unconditional. I just love her so much. I just feel really comfortable with her to be like, “Hey Mitzie, what about this that’s going on? What can I do when she does this?” I just don’t ever feel scared to ask her questions, and she’s just super supportive. But it was a really good class because I felt like there definitely were times when her attention was off, which is understandable. She hasn’t been around other dogs in a training session in a long time. But the biggest piece is eye contact, meaning your dog looks at you and at you for direction. Which she has nailed. So, I think she’s doing really well.  We were kind of introducing everyone, Mitzie the trainer was like, “Okay, so you guys are turning in in August, right?” And I was like, [tearfully] “Yes.”

Claire: It’s so soon.

Joy: It’s so soon. Yeah. We don’t have a date yet, but that’s kind of the projected date, so I’m just kind of waiting to hear when we’re doing that. But Scott, it’s really funny. It’s going to be really sad, and we’re going to be devastated, but we know that this has always been her journey. But Scott was like, “Why don’t we turn the trip when we turn her in into almost a vacation afterwards?”

Claire: Yeah, you should.

Joy: I was like, “Yeah, let’s please do that.” So, I think we’re going to go to Disney Land after we turn her in.

Claire: Oh my gosh, can I come with you? Can we go to Harry Potter Land?

Joy: Yes. I was like, “I really want to go to Disney.” Scott has not been to Disney Land. That would be amazing. 

Claire: You guys would love it. You would just hang out in Star Wars Land. Oh my gosh, Scott would love Star Wars Land.

Joy: Yes, I would love it. That would be so much fun. That’s kind of our unofficial plan right now.

Claire: That’s so fun.

Joy: When we turn Cadet in.

Claire: And would you take JT, or would you leave him here?

Joy: I’d leave him here. I wouldn’t take him with us on the trip. Yeah, someone will watch him. But yeah, it’s going to be a big change, but we’re not thinking about that just yet.

Claire: No. Not at all. August is eons away.

Joy: Every moment. 

Claire: Years and years from now. Okay, so we are also in this episode going to check in a little bit about some health and fitness. It’s this weird tip to get rid of your belly fat.

Joy: We’re already tripping over the topic. We’re like, what? The reason though is I feel like by ignoring it – it’s always on my mind, and I think it’s on your mind.

Claire: At the baseline of all this is a health and fitness podcast. It’s still something –

Joy: It’s still something we think about a lot.

Claire: We do, all the time. I’m going to CrossFit four, five, six times a week right now. It’s a huge part of our lives still. And yeah, I don’t think about it as much as I once did, but I still think about it a lot.

Joy: So, I think it’s important to check in on this only because I know people are wondering at times, and I just want to put it out there.

Claire: And it’s our podcast, we can talk about what we want.

Joy: For sure. We don’t want to make it taboo, and I don’t ever want to avoid it because it’s a huge part of our lives.

Claire: I’m not worried about it.

Joy: It’s still very important to me.

Claire: So, what’s on your mind?

Joy: Well, the biggest thing that’s on my mind is just the workouts that I’ve been doing and how much it means to me to be able to move and how sometimes I feel like even just talking about on the podcast we’re perpetuating the diet culture. And I just don’t think that it has to be one or the other. I can still really like to move. I’m not hating my body at the end of the day. But I will say, there’s times where I still struggle with it. And by “it,” I just mean with my diagnosis of Graves’ in November and coming back from that, I feel like I’m really close to what my naturopath will say lifelong remission. I have had this weird relationship to gaining and losing weight, which I know a lot of people can relate to. Me, personally, I’ve just never – well I guess aside from intentionally trying to lose weight from counting macros, it’s never been something that I’ve really had to experience. I’ve just been one of those types of people that stays at the same body type and same weight my entire life. So, I think that that is something that if I wasn’t being honest, I feel like I’d be doing a disservice to myself to be like, wow, there are some days that just feel really hard. Because I was super weak, and I lost a lot of weight in the fall, and I was struggling with that. But then kind of coming back up to my weight and getting back into my workouts also feels foreign because I’ve just had this weird back and forth. I’m still kind of in the middle of it, but I just feel like I wanted so bad ack when I was feeling weak and had lost significant amount of weight to be back to this place where I’m feeling strong and can do the things that I want to do again, which is like lifting heavier weights and doing some light jogging and so forth. At the end of the day, you just have to be really careful to not fall into the weight piece. Does that make sense? It’s just what my body can do because there are times where I’m like, am I working… because back in the fall, I wanted to be back to my “normal” weight, which is normal for me, not saying normal for you.

Claire: And you were losing weight because you had severe organ problems.

Joy: Yeah, I had Graves’ Disease.

Claire: So, I think what you’re saying is something that is really important and that we’ve kind of talked about in different ways before around, for example, being postpartum or coming out of an injury or anything where it’s like you spend your whole life up until the last very small handful of years basically focusing on your weight first and then everything else after that.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: And then even within CrossFit culture, even within fitness culture, even within the “strong is the new sexy” culture, there is still such an emphasis put on weight, put on aesthetics, and there’s sort of this understanding that yeah, we’re all going to pretend to only care about what our bodies can do. But first of all, that’s still a metric that may or may not mean anything to you. Maybe you do have a chronic illness. Maybe you do have a chronic injury. Maybe you’re disabled. Maybe there are things going on in your life where maintaining a certain standard of performance as your goal is not realistic for you and doesn’t –

Joy: Nor is it a priority.

Claire: Nor is it a priority, right.

Joy: It doesn’t have to be a priority, yeah.

Claire: That’s a whole conversation in and of itself that is very ablest to say it’s all about getting stronger, getting fitter, and who cares what you look like as long as you’re hitting PRs. Well, hitting PRs all the time is also not attainable for the majority of people throughout their lives.

Joy: No. That’s the other thing is that priority has changed because I just don’t do that anymore. I say this with love in my heart and just tongue and cheek for myself. But whenever I’m talking to friends about going to my workout, I’m like, “I’m going to do my grandma workouts” because I’m not going to crush it in the gym anymore. It just doesn’t feel right for me. I don’t have the desire to kill myself in every workout type of thing. But I think what you’re saying, what I felt immediately come back is this default to weight, which that doesn’t feel right.

Claire: Right. And I think in the beginning you were kid of worried about, “Well, we just keep perpetuating diet culture.” But at the end of the day, it’s important to recognize that the vast majority – you and I for sure – I think the vast majority of women who have been into fitness for a long time, we have spent our whole lives up until very recently really with that default of, “Yeah, but am I losing weight?” That it doesn’t matter what else you’re doing because the real metric that you’re supposed to be worried about it whether or not you are the “correct” body weight. Huge giant air quotes, “correct” body weight.

Joy: Huge, giant.

Claire: We all know what we’re talking about. What’s your ideal body weight? Are you back to your ideal body weight?

Joy: Did you get your body back?

Claire: And that no matter what, that is the thing in the back of your mind, and you have to fight against that because that’s your knee jerk natural reaction, and it’s really hard to get away from that because that’s how it’s been your whole life. And it’s okay. It’s shitty that it’s like that. But you’re not perpetuating diet culture by having that be where your brain goes because diet culture did that to your brain to begin with.

Joy: It’s a lot of programming that needs to be unprogrammed.

Claire: And maybe it won’t ever go away.

Joy: Maybe not.

Claire: It will be there your whole life. You’re 43, and this is still coming up daily. And you know, it’s just more of understanding, wow, I hate that that’s there. That’s so tiring. And I’m going to acknowledge it and acknowledge that that’s not me anymore. And wow, how interning that that still comes up. Instead, I’m going to go and make it into the gym and move my body. I’m so grateful for the movement that I have. That’s been something that I’ve really been grateful for this year. I don’t have a receipt for this. It just sort of happened. Is in the evolution of me coming back to very regular fitness is completely letting go of every expectation I have of myself, other than truly just to show up.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: I used to say that. “Oh, it’s a win just to be here.” But really in the back of my mind I was thinking, “And because I’m here so much, I’m going to be getting all these PRs.” And that’s just not the case for me anymore. I’m not pushing myself in every workout. For me, the subtext used to be, “Half the battle’s just showing up.” But the other half of the battle is hating yourself if you don’t do better than you did the day before.

Joy: Well, here’s the other thing. Especially if we’re going to talk about the CrossFit world is we were looking up to people. The idols of CrossFit at the beginning were Christmas Abbott.

Claire: My idol forever.

Joy: Yes, your idol forever. 

Claire: Christmas forever.

Joy: Christmas forever. We’re looking at people with these rock-hard bodies and doing CrossFit. That’s what we were aspiring to live up to. I’m not speaking for everyone. That was kind of the face of CrossFit, so when you go in, you’re in that world of that is the epitome of body. It’s really interesting to me that we’re kind of just letting go of the fitspo world still. And just going into the gym to move. I go in some times and I’m just stretching. I say this because I used to really put pressure on myself to really kill myself with every workout and really go hard. I do feel like that was a part of the reason why I developed Graves’ Disease was because of how hard I was working out. I really do believe that contributed. So now that I’m being nice to my body and being like, I don’t really need to make my heart rate go through the roof every time I work out. I just need to feel good. I don’t have any weight in mind when I’m going to lift weights. Whatever feels good that day. And if it’s light, it’s light. And that doesn’t matter to me anymore. But it is interesting to me how especially because we started out as a CrossFit podcast and that was kind of the body type that you were – I don’t know if anyone put pressure on you to have that, but that’s kind of what CrossFit was.

Claire: Absolutely. We were very much on that train of “strong is the new skinny.” I can’t believe women want to be skinny. Why wouldn’t they want to be strong?

Joy: Remember when all the time we’d be like, “You’re going to be bulky.” We always talked about that.

Claire: To this day, I maintain that. 

Joy: For sure. But even that discussion is like –

Claire: Shaming people for wanting or not wanting certain body types.

Joy: Right.

Claire: And I think that it really does come down to an evolution of what’s that balance between wanting to truly be totally accepting of your body in whatever situation that you are in today, while still acknowledging there are things in my body that either need to be healed or that I would be happier with if they were a different way. For me, it used to be, “I don’t like being slow. I wish I was faster.” Now, I don’t give a crap if I’m slow. I’m the slowest girl in the gym. I’ve been here for nine years. I don’t care. I’m not getting faster. I’ve accepted myself slowness. But that’s not the case for everybody. People out there, they do feel that really strong drive to be like, but I want to PR, I want to attain x, y, z goal.

Joy: That stuff feels good too. Like, I lifted more weight than I had in a long time the other day, and I was like, that feels great.

Claire: Totally. And I think the difference is having those things when they happen and being able to be like, “That was awesome. I’m strong.” Versus being like, my whole life revolves around this goal. And all I think about is this goal, and all my actions pertain to this goal. Or at least a lot of my actions or a lot of my thoughts. 

Joy: A lot of identity.

Claire: Yeah, a lot of identity and just so much energy.

Joy: You used to tell me all the time, which is true, you’re like – and it is just the observation that my identity is very much wrapped in performance at the gym.

Claire: And just to any activity that you do.

Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a huge identity piece with that. I will say one thing that just kind of told me something about myself. Yesterday I was scrolling on Instagram, and I saw Busy Phillips post something about how she drinks bullet proof coffee in the morning. It was probably some ad. And she’s like, “And I love it, and it keeps me full all morning.” And I had this reaction of like, why do you need to be full all morning? Why are we perpetuating this idea that you can’t eat in the morning? It made me so angry because I’m just like, these are the things that get under my skin that make me think I shouldn’t be eating in the morning. But guess what? That also messed up my system.

Claire: Also guess what? Bullet proof coffee is like 700 calories.

Joy: Yeah. It’s like, who cares? Eat if you’re hungry. And by the way, I have to eat within an hour of waking in the morning because my naturopath is like, “Don’t ever fast. It’s horrible for women.” Things like that that just perpetuate this diet culture mentality.

Claire: If I eat right when I wake up, I feel sick. Right.

Joy: This is a celebrity.

Claire: This is a celebrity that works out on a trampoline with ankle weights. She is not you. I mean, don’t get me wrong. Those trampoline ankle workouts look very fun.

Joy: It looks fun.

Claire: So many donkey kicks.

Joy: Yeah, donkey kicks for sure. It’s very Tracy Anderson Method. I’m sorry to mention the name.

Claire: How dare you?

Joy: But I guess, when I had that reaction, it was very clear to me that I’m like, wow, this affects me. All of this affects me.

Claire: Totally. And I think it’s normal. I think it’s always going to affect you. I think it’s always going to affect most of the people listening to this podcast who found us through fitness. The entire fitness industry is built on external expectations. It takes a really long time to get to the point where you truly can release those. And a lot of times, it comes through a series of having to go through circumstances where you don’t have control over your body for one reason or another. And for some people, they are listening and thinking, I have never had control over my body. I have this diagnosis, or I’m disabled, or whatever. And it’s so privileged to even be able to think I’ve always just been chasing these external approvals. And it is. It really is. And it’s the reality for so many women. I did not arrive at the place that I’m at of truly, literally not caring what I do in the gym because I set out one day to be like, “I’m going to not care anymore.” It was more that one day I woke up and realized that, wow, I don’t care anymore. That has to be what’s going to happen. It is a lot of work on the backend, but not in the way that you think. The more that you try not to care… it doesn’t always work that way. And it sort of is like the “don’t think about an elephant.” What are you thinking about? You’re thinking about an elephant.

Joy: Right. But I think it’s kind of like, what would happen if you just don’t care? Well nothing, really. There’s really nothing negative that’s going to happen if you just stop caring.

Claire: Well, they think that. They think if I stop caring, then I’m going to get unhealthy. I’m going to lose all my giant. I’m going to lose all these things that I have held so closely to me for so long. And you kind of have to be forced to go through that, for most of us, a couple of times before you realize, oh no matter what happens my body is still going to be my body. It’s the only one I have. And I’m not going to get another one.

Joy: Yeah. This is a little bit of cognitive behavioral stuff, but whenever I have a negative thought about my body, I’m always like, I have my grandma and my mother’s body. My ancestors and my parents. It just feels kind of like an f*** you. They made me. Why would I be so hard on myself? These are the things I use to counteract the stupid stuff that comes into our heads. I have a friend, Joy, who has been on the podcast before. She’s a psychologist on the east coast. I want to have her back at some point. I’ve been taking to her about this. I sometimes have a hard time watching the diet culture, and also the culture of healthy at every size, feeling like there can never be… it’s almost like you have to be on one camp on one side. And she has an interesting perspective. I’ll let her tell her own story, but the gist is she at one point, she lost 100 lbs. She has maintained that, but I wanted her to talk more about her view of the healthy at every size and why she chose to lose 100 lbs. and maintain it and what that’s been like for her with the idea of thin privilege, which she says is a completely interesting thing to experience when you go from weight 100 lbs. more to then looking different. So, I want her to be on at some point to talk about that because I think she has some really intelligent things to say about it that it doesn’t have to be like you can’t do fitness without also appreciating healthy at every size. Fitness doesn’t mean you have to lose weight. Fitness should not ever mean the goal is to lose weight.

Claire: Full stop, end of sentence.

Joy: Full stop, yeah. Great.

Claire: That’s it for this week.

Joy: That’s that for now.

Claire: That’s it for today.

Joy: I do want to plug our two sponsors that I think we’ve been really loving is always Double Under Wonder. Can use the discount code JOY to get yourself a jump rope. It’s doubleunderwonder.com. And Eat to Evolve with delicious meals that don’t have anything to do with dieting. It’s just food. Snacks.

Claire: It’s just food and snacks.

Joy: Fueling your body.

Claire: And they are allergen friendly a lot of them if you have dietary allergies.

Joy: Like me, I can’t have dairy. 

Claire: Yeah, a lot of it is gluten free. A lot of it is dairy free. Not all of it. Some of it is nut free. All the different choices. Check them out. Eat to Evolve.

Joy: Yeah. Discount code JOYCLAIRE15. 

Claire: Go check them out. Go grab yourself some snacks. What’s your favorite one so far?

Joy: The snacks are the paleo balls.

Claire: What’s your favorite meal?

Joy: They have a really good burger.

Claire: you love a burger.

Joy: They have two burgers that I love. I do love a burger They have two really good burgers that I love, and then they also have this buffalo chicken salad.

Claire: Oh, yeah, that’ one’s good.

Joy: It’s so good.

Claire: I like their carnitas. You know how I feel about carnitas. I love them. They’re carnitas were good. They come on potatoes. And then my favorite snack are the smoked maple pecans.

Joy: Oh, that sounds delicious. I haven’t tried those yet. 

Claire: They’re a little bit smokey. They have that smokey flavor. It’s delish.

Joy: They have – and truly guys, we don’t get paid by them, so this is not a frivolous trying to push –

Claire: We don’t make money when you order.

Joy: But they do give us food to try. So, we don’t make money off of this, but we do just want to support this business because they do make great food. And I think they’ve really nailed the packaging. No food ever gets spilled. Like some of the past products, I would get food and it was spilled in the package when it would arrive. But they also have this great grab and go option where you don’t have to reheat it. So, if you’re somewhere that doesn’t have a microwave, you can bring it throughout the day. I love it. Eat to Evolve, discount code JOYCLAIRE15. Thank you guys so much for supporting us over the years. Contact us thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com with your feedback. Leave us a 5-star rating and review and tell us what you think.

Joy and Claire: And share with your friends. 

Claire: Jinx. Alright guys, we will talk to you next week. Bye.

Joy: Have a good one. Bye.