female podcasters

Claire: I know. It is jarring though when you are like so you someone’s voice – that happens with NPR hosts all the time. And then you see them in real life and you’re like, huh, that’s not what I was expecting. And then sometimes you see them in real life, and they’re exactly like who you were expecting. Like Ira Glass, for example, who you’re like, yeah,

Joy: That tracks.

Claire: Yeah, that’s correct.

Joy: But I did that with the Ronna and Beverly show. This was a podcast, I listened to way back, probably 10-12 years ago when podcasts were really new. They had a show and there were these like two amazingly hilarious Jewish mothers, comedians, and they’re so funny. They’re so funny. If you ever have a chance, go back and listen to them, they’re worth it. But they have two very distinct voices. One is like very high in chipper and one’s like, really low and gravelly. Had them mixed up the whole time. So when I saw them on a video, it completely threw me off. I was like, no, this is so weird. Anyway, I am Joy. That is Claire. Thank you for hanging with us for another week of the podcast. This is the week of August 25th. And as of the release of this episode, you will be mere moments from your trip. Have you decided? The question of the week.

Claire: I know. I am going to rent a board.

Joy: All right.

Claire: It’s like $100 to rent one. They won’t tell you online exactly how much it’s going to cost to check your oversized bag, it says it could be up to $400. And because the surf bag is within inches of the limit. Although it’s not that heavy, the size is so big. Like I think it can go up to I want to say it’s 110 inches, which is like nine feet and change and my board bag is eight and a half feet.

Joy: It’s risky. It’s risky.

Claire: Yeah. Just everything, all the considerations. It’s 100 euro, which is, you know, since the Euros down, it’s 100 bucks to rent the board for the whole freaking week and have somebody else deal with transporting it. So now all I have to worry about is I don’t think I’m going to check a bag. Although my wetsuit is really thick.

Joy: I was going to say, isn’t that thick and heavy?

C It’s thick and heavy, and it would take up a half a carry on.

Joy: What’s the weather going to be like, while you’re there?

Claire: Yeah, great question. Do you do this? And I hope that other people who are listening to this where when you know that you have a trip coming up, you add that city to your weather app?

Joy: Oh, yeah.

Claire: So I had it added to my weather app for a couple of weeks. And it’s like mid 60s to low 70s and a mix of sun and rain.

Joy: Okay.

Claire: So it’s going to be cool and probably a little bit wet. It’s funny because in Colorado, which is the only place I’ve really ever lived other than Utah, which is even more dry than this, we don’t get rain. There’s no such thing as casual rain in Colorado. Maybe at most two days a year do we get what most people would consider just like a rainstorm. Not even a storm, just some rain. We do get storms – we get thunderstorms, but they’re very short lived. And you know, they’ll go they’ll blow through and maybe it’ll rain for 10,15,20 minutes, and then it’ll be done. That’s all you get for the day. But rarely do we get just like a rainy day. We just had one this week. And it was on Tuesday, and it like kind of rained on off all day. I’m not exaggerating when I say we maybe have one or two of those days a year.

Joy: A year. Yeah.

Claire: Where it’s cloudy all day. Or a mix of cloudy all day and raining, not raining, raining, not raining. Very uncommon. And so when it was doing that, I was like, oh, I’m going to get to Ireland and get to tell everyone like we just had our one rainy day a year where I live.

Joy: You’re like, I’m acclimated.

Claire: Exactly.

Joy: I’m ready for it.

Claire: And like nobody in Colorado owns a rain jacket. Or if you do you, only wear it once a year.

Joy: Totally. I remember when we would have afternoon rainstorms in Colorado, whatever like a handful of years ago when like we actually had afternoon rainstorms and now it doesn’t do it anymore, but we’d go to Red Rocks for concerts, and it was always so like touch and go with rain. So that’s the only time I’d really use like my raincoat.

Claire: Yeah, like no one owns umbrellas. There’s just no need. If it’s raining and you have to go somewhere you just wait in your car until the rain stops. I always talk about how I wish I lived in a cooler climate, but the reality is that I can’t move anywhere else because I can’t handle anything less than like 330 days a year of sun.

Joy: So someone did write you on –

Claire: Yes. Someone from Ireland –

Joy: Not Ireland, but LA. She’s like, I am an avid surfer. She’s an LA surfer.

Claire: Oh, I was thinking about the person that emailed us from Ireland.

Joy: No, we just got this email from someone that said, she travels a lot and has never checked her own board. There’s so many things that can go wrong. They could break it in transit, gets lost, whatever, whatever. So they just say rent it and call it a day. So there you go.

Claire: I agree. And that’s the recommendation I would give anyone about skis, and skis are way easier to travel with because there’s so much lighter and smaller. I’ve never flown with my skis. So I get it. And I completely agree. It was really more just like the sunk effort that I’d already put into it. And also the fact that I previously was told that renting a board – even the woman who I first talked to who had told me to reach out to this rental place, I had emailed them, and they never emailed me back. And it’s the same rental place we’re getting them from, but they’re like arranging it locally.

Joy: Right.

Claire: Anyway, whatever. A lot of people also messaged us and were like, you need to tell the surf company what happened. And like, yeah, I will continue to express my frustration with how that went down. But at the same time, they didn’t force me to buy a surfboard, I am renting one. I will be leaving on Saturday. I am very excited. And I am nervous, because I think I’m always nervous about trips like this. But I am especially nervous because – my Mexico trip I was nervous but it’s explicitly said this is a trip for all levels. You can be a brand-new beginner and come out. This trip is specifically like, we do not want brand new beginners. You have to be able to catch your own waves.

Joy: You actually email them you’re like, hey, is my skill level good enough for this trip?

Claire: Right. And they’re like, yeah, of course. And I’m like, are you sure? And so I really am feeling worried that I’m going to get there and they’re going to be like, oh, yeah, actually, maybe you should sit this one out. But if I get there and I can’t surf – and it probably would just be more like, if I’m uncomfortable. If there’s a swell or something, if I’m uncomfortable, I’m still going to be at the beach in Ireland.

Joy: Yeah, it’s going to be a win win, no matter what,

Claire: It’s going to be a win win. And it’s similar to my Mexico trip too where there’s like a lot of other activities. I don’t get what it is with surf retreats and sound baths. Like everyone I see, it’s like we’re going to do a sound bath.

Joy: It just goes hand in hand.

Claire: I mean, everyone here knows I am very onboard for any activity that basically just requires me to lay on the floor. So in that sense, very excited.

Joy: I’ll just prepare for a nap. I’m good.

Claire: There’s also a seaweed bath. Two types of baths. Sound bath and a seaweed bath where there’s basically there’s like a seaweed spa that you go to and they just wrap you up and seaweed. So that sounds nice. Looking forward to not being the palest person there or at least being like on par with the paleness.

Joy: Really, let’s be honest, this is like a dream trip for you.

Claire: It really is.

Joy: In all aspects.

Claire: It is. And that’s like why also I am pushing myself to take it even though I know that my skill level is like right at the bottom of where it should be. Because I’m like, when am I going to have a chance to do something like this again? I’m excited. I’m excited to tell you guys about it. And we have had some questions about we had sort of said we might do a surf trip for Joy and Claire. We’re still in the process of kind of feeling that out and seeing what might be able to happen. I think the biggest restriction that we would run into would be the trip size. When I went on that trip, it was only seven people. And so I think we’re going to need to figure out if that’s something that we, you know, between Joy and I, do we really only really want to do a trip we’re only like five or six additional people can come? And on one hand that does make it really manageable and really like – I mean intimate is not really the right word. But you get to spend a lot of time with each other. Like when we did our Costa Rica trip, I want to say it was 12 people and we did Iceland, I want to say it was like 14 or 15. I can’t quite imagine a trip based on an activity like surfing with that many people, but I could be wrong. So we’ll see. So TBD. We’re still we’re talking to the potential trip organizer still and seeing what our options would be. If it does happen. I imagine that we will be looking at like sometime April, May or June of 2023.

Joy: And on that same note, are we just going to make that like our 10-year anniversary party? Because what if people can’t go on like a trip trip?

Claire: I think we’re going to have to do both. We’ll have to do like something local also, at the Alamo again.

Joy: That was so fun. I would do that again in a heartbeat. That was so great.

Claire: I was at work and some colleagues they were talking about just going to the movies and how like, oh, it’s been so long since I’ve been in the movies. And the Alamo came up and was like, oh, I did this party once where we rented out the Alamo and I was like 39 weeks pregnant.

Joy: Such a good memory. I just remember the venue was perfect like the staff was perfect. Everybody got to have some food and watch Mean Girls. The Ned guys stopped by. That was the first time we met them. I was really shocked by how handsome they were. Not that I didn’t think they were. But in person, I was like, whoa, this is too much to handle for our party. I need a moment. No, they’re, they’re great. And so maybe Ned will also show up for our 10-year anniversary party. Because that was what our 300th episode My goodness.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: Yeah. So we’re going to have to keep planning for that. And then maybe a surf trip with everybody too. We got to get back on that. I really miss our podcast trips. Truly some of the best memories ever.

Claire: Truly, I know. I actually got a text from Megan and Joelle last week. They went on a road trip and they were listening to the Iceland episode of the Camp TimeOut episode. Actually now that I’m saying that, I don’t think I ever texted her back.

Joy: [laughing] I hate when I do that, when I forget to text people. Do you ever do that? Or you write a text and you never send it? You’re like, oh, sorry.

Claire: Yeah, I do this with emails unfortunately too. A lot, where someone will write me an email like, hey, I have this question. And I’ll think to myself, oh, I need to ask someone else. Like, Oh, that reminds me, I have been needing to follow up on a similar question with someone else. And so then I’ll go follow up on that question from the other person and forget about the initial email. And then they’ll email me back like a week later and be like, hey, I’m just checking in on this. I’m like, crap, oh, well.

Joy: Just don’t write an email and say, “I’m just putting this at the top of your inbox,” because that’s a big pet peeve of mine.

Claire: Oh, I do that.

Joy: Okay. At work maybe. But we always get them for the podcast from sponsor people that want us to promote their stuff. They’re like, just throwing this at the top. I’m like, if you’re a spammy sponsor person, I don’t want you at the top of my email inbox.

Claire: I know. I get that a lot at work because I guess, maybe, I must be easy to find on LinkedIn or something. People always are emailing me. I get probably like 10 cold emails a day from salespeople. Like, first of all, why are you cold emailing me? Does that work? To be fair, I don’t have a work phone. They are always like replying, replying, replying. Like listen, if I didn’t get if I didn’t respond to your first four emails, what makes you think I’m going to respond now to this? Like, “Hey, how’s your engagement TikTok?” I’m like, guys, we don’t even have a TikTok account. Why are you emailing me? Did you even look at title look us up on TikTok first? It’s similar to when we get sponsors, and they’re like, “Hey, Joy” or they just write, “Hey guys.” Or “Hey, girls gone wild.” That’s my favorite. People constantly will be emailing us like, “Hey, girl gone wild.” If you think you’re emailing Girls Gone Wild, I am sorely disappointed to tell you that our email address is not girlsgonewild@gmail.com. Anyway, okay. So a couple weeks ago – so just to give you a little insight into our world, we are trying to pre-record a couple of episodes because I’m going to be gone. And then the following week is Labor Day. And I’m not getting back to like kind of halfway through the week. And so we’re pre-recording a couple episodes. We’re going to also have an episode come out with Laura Ligos, our favorite dietitian. So this episode, we are going to go back and answer a bunch of the questions that you guys asked on Instagram last week, just so that we don’t get too sick of talking to each other. And you don’t get too sick of us just like rambling about our lives. But first of all, I want to tell you guys that Miles’ first day of first grade was this week.

Joy: That’s so exciting.

Claire: And he is so funny already. He’s six and a half years old, and he wants nothing to do with me. We go to drop him off, Brandon and I both. Brandon got the morning off specifically so we could take him. And we got there and like, all the other kids are like taking pictures with their families. Some kids are crying. My child is running laps around the playground.

Joy: Just like at home.

Claire: Whose kid is this? And every once in a while, he’d kind of check in and be like, “Hey, is it time yet?” I’d be like, “No.” And he’d be like, “Okay,” and just go off and run another lap.

Joy: Oh my god. That’s amazing. I was really excited to start school to start first grade because I wanted homework. I felt like such – I know. I remember the first day of first grade coming home. We’re like playing with the kids in the front yard. My neighbor was like, “How was your first day?” And I was like, “I’ve got to go, I have to go do my homework.” And I felt like such an adult. I just remember saying that to her. I was like, “I have to go inside, and I have to do my homework.” Like, it was like the epitome of adult.

Claire: That clearly is like a core memory because you were six.

Joy: Totally. And no one could tell me that that happened because I was the only one there.

Claire: Maybe you just dreamed it. That’s so funny. Miles is definitely a fan of homework, which checks out. I think fewer and fewer teachers are giving a lot of homework these days, especially in elementary school. Like really is there a reason? Looking back on my adolescence, I don’t feel like I ever gained anything from homework. The only homework that I feel like you can really justify is having kids read something at home so you can come to school and talk about it the next day. A because everybody reads at very different paces. And it’s hard. I mean, it takes a long time to read. So expecting everyone to sit there for 30 minutes and then read and then talk about it would be hard to do if you only have like 40 minutes of class. But when I think about like math homework, or even research projects, I just don’t really feel like I ever got a whole lot out of doing it at home. But you know, who knows? Maybe I’m missing the point. I mean, I will say, it’s not like homework prepared me for my professional life because I do everything in my power to not work at home, or like outside of work hours. So you can be like, school is preparing you for the real world. Like, yeah, guess what? If you graduate from school and have it normalized that you have to go home and still do three more hours work? Like maybe that’s why we’re in the predicament that we are today, with people experiencing wild burnout.

Joy: Oh, that’s so funny. That’s so funny.

Claire: Yeah, But happy first day of first grade, Miles. And then he came home on the second day and he was like, “Mom, I don’t want to go to school. It’s so boring.” Like dude, it’s day two.

Joy: You got to lock it up, man. You got to lock it up.

Claire: A little bit of a better attitude here because I am not having this conversation with you for the next eight months.

Joy: Yeah, yeah, you’re like, let’s get going. Well, okay. Well, congratulations.

Claire: And then Evie starts preschool. I think already give us update. Evie starts preschool the week after Labor Day, and Maxine is going to go work for a new family, which is really sad. And also, it’s the right thing at the right time. But I really don’t know what we’re going to do without her. Keep us in your thoughts as we navigate our lives without as much childcare support as we’ve had. Okay, so we’re going to get to some questions. But first, let’s take a quick break, rave and sing the praises of our sponsor, Ned. Ned, the makers of our favorite CBD products, I love their Daily Blend. I use the 750-milligram concentration Daily Blend. And I also love their Mello Magnesium drink mix. I love the Meyer lemon. It’s really such a part of my nightly routine these days that I’m taking it with me in Ireland. That’s as much as I rely on it. I travel with it. Now that I’m thinking about it, I got to make sure that things are under three ounces.

Joy: Yeah, be careful. But I’m very excited to announce that they have a new product out. As of the release of this episode. It’s called the Brain Blend, and I got to try it out. And it’s like, one of those things again, you don’t know how you’re going to feel after you take something new. Like the second I took it that day, I already felt like, Oh, I feel like I’m really just locked into what I’m supposed to be doing. Like my focus felt really good. I’m not saying it’s going to work for everybody. But it was a little bit of a coincidence. And then day two, I was like, this is actually working. So the new Brain Blend is another one that I am a huge fan of. I feel like they can’t do anything wrong. I feel like every product of theirs is just top notch because they are.

Claire: Also I just saw that they were named on the Inc. 5000 Fastest-Growing Private Companies list. They are number 364. So that’s exciting for them. I think it also goes to show that there’s a lot of confidence in their products. And you know, you can look back and be like I remember Ned back in the day. I knew them when. Try out Ned. Try out the new Brain Blend. You can get 15% off your order with discount code JOY or go to helloned.com/JOY. That’s helloned.com/JOY or use discount code JOY. And also don’t forget that they have a 30-day money back guarantee on your first order. So if you’ve been waiting for the right product to try, try out the brain blend and let us know what you think. And if you didn’t love it, then you can return it for free and get your money back.

Joy: I’m pretty sure you’re going to love it.

Claire: Thank you guys for supporting the brands that support our podcast. Joy. You got some questions for us?

Joy: I do have some questions. Well, we had someone asked about the progress of the Joy and Claire surf trip, but we already addressed that. So that one’s done. Tips on reaching more people with a podcast? Yes.

Claire: Oh, this reminds me. Somebody sent us a DM and said their daughter wants to start a podcast and they want to know what to get started. I think I need to just make an Instagram highlight about this finally, because we’ve been getting this question for years. And I need to look into how things have changed. The number one thing that we try to promote to people or encourage people with is that starting a podcast is actually so easy. There’s very little that you actually need to have. Really all you need is a computer that can connect to the internet. That’s really it. Headphones are great. Not necessary. A microphone is great, but not necessary. You can use your Apple air…

Joy: Yeah, Apple, the plugin one. Anything that is like wireless is not great for podcasting, because you’re always going to have the shorting out thing. But the Apple earbuds that plug in are really great. If you’re a guest on a podcast, those are great. Please do not use the wireless ones.

Claire: And it’s so easy to get your feed published. So I’ll put up some Instagram stories about that for anybody who’s ever thought to themselves, man, I’d really like to try a podcast but there’s just so much work that needs to go into it. It’s just really not true. You know, based on the fact you can just demonstrate it by how Joy and I have been able to do this every week for the last almost, you know, 9.5 years.

Joy: Yeah, we don’t have a professional studio. We just have little home studio.

Claire: It’s just us. We don’t have a team.

Joy: We do not have an assistant. Tips on reaching more people, I would say that if you can, try to get on other people’s podcasts or get people on your podcast. The more that you kind of do that give and take, what you put out comes back to you. I think the people that you invite onto your podcast, as long as you have a genuine interest in what they’re doing. I think that really shows. So I would say that’s number one. And then there are some things that you can read about. Claire, you can probably talk about this more than I could but just like keywords that you put in your title. You can actually Google some things about like, what do I need to put in my podcast title that’s going to draw more people. So there’s little tricks that you can do like that. But I also think that it takes time and patience if you’re if you’re newer to just build up your audience. Staying consistent is really important. Podcasts are a dime a dozen and a lot of them fizzle out really quickly. So if you are going to do a weekly show, and you start doing it every three weeks, people are going to be like, “Yeah, well, this isn’t going to show up on my feed.” So people need to know what to expect. They need to know what they’re coming in for. If you’re just going to do a series or if you’re going to do a weekly podcast, just be very clear about what you’re going to be doing. Those will be my top tips. There’s a ton more but for the sake of time,

Claire: Definitely the number one thing to do is to go on other people’s podcasts who have a similar audience to you. And then also invite them onto your podcast and have that cross pollination. Sometimes you can even ask if you can repost the episode that you record with them on your feed and vice versa. And then you get two episodes in one bang, I would say in terms of specifically speaking to your title and your cover art, make sure that it really is something where you can look at it right away and first of all, read it. And second of all, that it’s not too niche that you can read it and kind of know what you’re getting without having to dig too much further. Like imagine that if you’re scrolling through an entire category on iTunes, what’s a title that would jump out to you. It can feel boring to name your podcast, something like “How to Trail Run for Beginners,” or “Women with Tattoos Talking About Coffee.” But if you get like too punny, then people aren’t going to understand it. You know, don’t be afraid to just name it like “Two Friends Talking About Birds.” Like it doesn’t need to be too crazy, or too cutesy. And I think the other big thing that you can do is from purely an organic search standpoint of people, you know, Googling like “women’s podcasts about birds,” is transcribe your episodes and put the transcriptions on your website. And what that does is it creates a ton of text for Google to search through on your site. So that if people are searching for certain terms, and those terms are coming up regularly in your episodes, then that makes it that much easier for Google to find your site. So that’s just like a little SEO tip.

Joy: Speaking of birds, someone messaged us and was like, “The birds aren’t real conspiracy. The guy was in on it.” And I forgot to mention that. I do know that.

Claire: I listened to that too.

Joy: Yeah, I listened to some – maybe it was The Daily or maybe it was the Rabbit Hole podcast, or whatever.

Claire: I think it was the Armchair Expert, wasn’t it?

Joy: Yes, that’s right. The Armchair Expert. There was an episode. He’s been on a few but he basically created it just to kind of make fun of all the conspiracy theories out there. So all right, next question is have either of you tried pickleball? If you haven’t heard, pickleball is the new CrossFit. Okay, so I, I had a couple of clients, oh gosh, 10 years ago that were really into pickleball. They were like senior years, and they loved pickleball, so I’ve known about it for a really long time, but apparently, it’s becoming like the coolest thing for young people to do.

Claire: It is.

Joy: And it’s really funny to see.

Claire: Like, Lululemon has a pickleball campaign.

Joy: It’s so funny that that’s becoming a thing. I mean, good for them. Great, but I mean –

Claire: It’s super fun.

Joy: I have never tried it.

Claire: I’m not like a ball sports person. I’m not a team sports person.

Joy: I don’t like balls flying at my nose.

Claire: I need to avoid situations where balls fly at my nose. But it is so hot right now. And it’s so funny because I actually just today, like in this like DM group, I guess, with a bunch of women from Longmont –

Joy: Your WhatsApp? Oh, a different one. Okay.

Claire: Yeah, a different one with a bunch of women in Longmont. And it’s a couple entrepreneurs in the area that I know added me to this group. And somebody just today was like, “Does anybody want to learn to play pickleball? I really want to learn but I need some friends to try it with.” And then a couple of people in my office, one in particular, is so obsessed with it. And any time we have any sort of team outing, she’s like, “Well, we play pickleball.” So I haven’t tried it. I am not a big ball sports person. I’ve heard it’s super, super fun. I know Brene Brown is really into it.

Joy: Oh yeah, she does that and swimming. I mean, I only know that because I listen to her podcast religiously. But yeah, I’d be open to trying it. I used to just go to do like a racquetball… what is it called back in the Rec Center when I was in college? I would just go to like the racquetball courts and just hit a ball back and forth. But that was more because I was like really obsessed with exercise and I needed more things to do. So I would just like literally go hit a racquetball. But that was just because I was like, oh, I’m already done with running for an hour and a half and then weightlifting for another hour and a half, what else can I do? So that was not a great time in my life.

Claire: It might have primed you to be great at pickleball.

Joy: I’m sure that’s the reason. Puppy raising. New puppy on its way. Crate train. Pee breaks at night. So excited. Oh, congratulations for if you’re getting a puppy that’s really fun, and also exhausting. Really quick. I’m happy to answer questions. If you email me to me too. Maybe I should do a highlight on this as well. Like the must haves for puppy raising. But really quick, maybe top five. Definitely crate train. Definitely, definitely, definitely crate train. I am a huge fan of the snuggle puppy, which is a little soft, stuffed animal toy. You can do any stuffed animals, but just make sure the dogs are not chewing it. Because that can really cause a very big vet bill. But usually puppies, their mouth is so small and their teeth aren’t really like – I mean, they’re razors but they can’t really shred up a toy yet. But they love stuffed animals because it feels like their pack. It feels like there’s another dog in the crate with them.

Claire: And the snuggle puppy has a little heartbeat.

Joy: Yeah, it has a heartbeat. It has a battery-operated little heartbeat thing that you can turn on. But again, I always caution. Just make sure the dog isn’t eating it. You don’t want them to eat the battery.

Claire: River ate it.

Joy: Yeah. So those are the things that I –

Claire: We’re not surprised.

Joy: Yeah. That we keep an eye on because so far the puppies I’ve raised have not tried that. But CCI is always like lecturing us, as they should be very careful if you use that. Like, you better be on it. Like very, very cautious. The other quick tip about crate training is if the puppy is really crying at night the first few nights, put the crate right next to your bed because they just need to know that they’re not alone. And it really helps them feel like, when they’re away from their pack for the first few nights, that’s just really upsetting to them. They’re little babies, and they just really miss their friends and their brothers and sisters. So you just put the crate right next to your bed and that really helps. And then I also play the puppy calm station when they’re babies just to kind of get them used to getting settled in their crate if they have issues with their crate. Taking them to pee every couple hours. Puppies have very small bladders. So in the middle of the night, we would just wake up when we kind of heard them rustling. And you have to physically pick them up to go outside. Because if you just open the crate, they’re going to pee everywhere. Carrying them to go outside, putting them in the grass or the yard or whatever and letting them pee gets them used to going like knowing where they’re supposed to go to the bathroom. But yeah, toilet training is just patience because you have to get them use do you. I always err on the side of like taking them out as much as possible. Because you just want to catch them going to the bathroom. You want to kind of predict when they’re going to go to the bathroom and take them out before they go in your house. But accidents do happen. I mean, Joe, pooped and peed in our house a few times because he was like, “Yeah, this is where I go.”

Claire: Yeah, when we first got River, the first like four or five nights, we set a timer to go off every three hours to let her out. And I had like a little bit of a painful flashback about doing that to breastfeed. Because it’s pretty much the exact same thing. You’re supposed to do it for the first like couple days after you have a baby where it’s like, you know, set a timer and make sure you’re offering to feed them every couple hours. But it did really set us up for success in the long run, because it also helped us get used to knowing how long is too long. Or if you can get out in front of it, then you get a better sense sooner of like, how much can you really push it.

Joy: Right. And crate training really does help with potty training. It teaches them how to go outside more quicker. The other thing I’ll say about crate training is that for puppies, if you’re if you have a large crate, something that’s like way bigger, they should just be able to kind of turn around and lay down. It shouldn’t be very, very large when they’re little babies. That will prevent them from going to the bathroom in the crate because they don’t really like to pee and poop where they sleep. So naturally they’re going to whine and cry to be let out if you have a smaller crate. So what we have is we have this adjustable crate where we can put like a barrier to where when they’re little babies, it just kind of makes the crate super small. And then we take the barrier out and it’s a bigger, larger crate when they’re older. So those are that’s nice to have. It’s like an adjustable crate where you can adjust it as they grow and then they’re less likely to go poop or pee in the crate because of that, because it’s too small for them. And then they’ll whine and cry and let you know when they need to be let out. out. We do love this toy called the bacon keys. If you just Google “bacon keys,” that’s really good for puppies because it’s soft enough on their teeth. You really want to be careful with toys on little babies because you don’t want their teeth breaking. If you give them something too hard, it can break their baby teeth. And you might think, Oh, well, it’s their baby teeth. No, it can cause like major damage to their adult teeth too if they break their baby teeth. So everything has to be pretty soft. Don’t give them anything really hard. Just be careful on anything that they could ingest. Take everything off the floor. They will eat everything. And I mean everything. So the other thing that we do when we’re training puppies is we give them really, really soft training treats, so you never give them kibble. Most of the time we train the dogs with just some kibble out of their breakfast or dinner, but puppies can choke very easily. So you want to use very soft treats and maybe soak their kibble in water. Okay, those are like the top tips, but always happy to answer more if you want to email us. Next one, you’re going to laugh. Who is on your current laminated list? Five people. This is my friend Gary. I knew he was going to ask this. This is a total Gary question. Hi Gary.

Claire: What’s a laminated list?

Joy: Like people that you could hook up with, like free passes.

Claire: Oh, that’s not what I thought that meant. Like, who’s like your hall pass?

Joy: Yeah, like Ross and Rachel. Wasn’t it on Friends when they had like their laminated lists?

Claire: I am not a Friends person.

Joy: Okay.

Claire: I mean, I like watched it, but I don’t know it that well.

Joy: So they had laminated lists.

Claire: That’s a lot.

Joy: That is a lot. Right now. I have four or maybe three. Just like off the top of my head. But it’s really hard to think of… Like my first one, because we talked about Paul Rudd last week, I was like Paul Rudd for sure would be up there.

Claire: We were just talking about Chris Pine a couple weeks ago, and he’s definitely on my list.

Joy: Yeah, I think possibly Jon Hamm. I’m a huge Jon Hamm fan.

Claire: I mostly love him in that season of 30 Rock.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: He’s like so hot and dumb.

Joy: Rob Lowe. I just want to go with like the hot dumb characters.

Claire: Hot dumb guys.

Joy: Yeah. When he’s Chris Traeger. Oh my God.

Claire: My friend Heather always calls River a hot dummy.

Joy: Yeah, hot dummy.

Claire: She is a hot dummy. Let’s see who else…

Joy: Ethan Hawke would be one of mine. I’m Googling actors, which is so funny because I’m like, why am I not looking –

Claire: You’re just Googling actors?

Joy: Yeah, I’m Googling actors around 40 because I don’t want it to get like weird.

Claire: I mean, Ryan Gosling is definitely on my list. Yeah, he’s been on there for a long time.

Joy: Yeah. Did you have like crushes when you’re a kid for movie stars?

Claire: Oh, yeah. And you know, that actually brings up a great point. Leonardo di Caprio. Definitely.

Joy: Leo.

Claire: Leo. Leo and Justin Timberlake were my first celebrity crushes. To this day, if JT walked up behind me right now. I’d be like, “This call is over.”

Joy: The podcast is over forever and ever.

Claire: We’re sorry guys.

Joy: I think one of my first crushes movie star crushes was Elliot from ET.

Claire: [laughing] He was like this sickly weird little boy.

Joy: Yeah, but I was the same age as him. And then the other thing was the boy on Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. The boyfriend.

Claire: Oh, what about the boy from Hocus Pocus?

Joy: I don’t remember him.

Claire: Old timey. What was his name? He was like supposed to be a ghost. So many people are yelling the name.

Joy: Oh, Max Dennison.

Claire: Am I thinking of Max?

Joy: Oh, oh, okay. Max Dennison was the character name. And then his name is Omri Katz.

Claire: No, no, I’m thinking of Thackery Binx.

Joy: He’s cute.

Claire: Really cute, right?

Joy: Yes. Yes. Yeah, but the Honey, I Shrunk the Kids guy was like dreamy. Because I was the same age as them when I was watching the movie. And so I just remember being like [gasp] when she was in the kitchen dancing and he was watching her. I was like, oh my God. This is like the best. It was so teen angsty.

Claire: Like what you want it to be.

Joy: Yeah, it was not too angsty. But just like teen heartthrob II. That’s like how it felt watching it.

Claire: Sexual awakening.

Joy: Totally sexual awakening. It was like, what was it, the Goblin King. Oh, I just dropped my glasses.

Claire: Joy is getting hot and bothered.

Joy: Whoever wrote and said the Goblin King was her sexual awakening makes me laugh. From the Labyrinth. Oh my god. You guys kill me. You guys are so funny. Okay, so I don’t know. I think those are my main ones. If I didn’t say Ethan Hawke, we’ll add him to the list.

Claire: You did.

Joy: I feel like there’s some athletes in there that I really am just not doing a good job.

Claire: Oh sure, yeah.

Joy: I’m not doing a good job. So maybe we’ll give it some thought.

Claire: Okay, we’ll come back.

Joy: That was just a rough draft. That was shitty first draft, as Brene would say. Joy, do you need to follow any food or lifestyle guidelines to keep your thyroid healthy? Thank you for asking. For those of you who may or may not know, I had Graves’ disease a couple years ago. I saw naturopath and we were able to kind of put that baby to bed. We put it in remission. As far as lifestyle, yes, I am keeping my exercise moderate. I’m not doing heavy, like high intensity CrossFit type stuff anymore. So I’m keeping my exercise to be like mild to moderate exercise. I get plenty of rest. I do follow the diet that she had me on which is eliminating some dairy and some other things. I still will eat dairy on occasion. Like the other day I went to Postino with my friends, and they have these fabulous cheese boards. I’m like, I’m going to have some cheese. But the reason I feel okay doing that is because overall my life is a completely different place. Like when I had Graves’ disease, I 1,000% know it was from the most intense toxic workplace ever. I know that’s what it was from. So all these other things we had to kind of put on like the high blast full speed treatment to get it to reverse. So now that I’m not as stressed, I know that that is a huge benefit to me, but I still don’t want to just kind of like do undo everything that I worked so hard to kind of balance out. And I do get my thyroid checked every six months, maybe three to six months, just to make sure the levels are fine. They’re still fine. I just had it rechecked. So as far as food or lifestyle, yeah, I do my best to keep going on what my naturopathic doctor taught me to do. And I’m super forever grateful for that. Do either of you use laundry or dishwasher detergent that is more earth friendly? I love Mrs. Meyers everything.

Claire: The biggest thing that I do to try to be earth friendly is buy refills and that’s something that you can do with a wide variety of brands. A lot of them will sell bulk options. It made me think about it when you said Mrs. Meyers. We have a few like huge gallon jugs of Mrs. Meyers hand soap that we just use to refill hands so containers in our house and that is something that is overlooked as a really accessible option. You don’t need to have biodegradable everything. You don’t have to necessarily use the like the tablets. There’s a lot of different ways of doing that out there. But that is one that is really accessible to a lot of people. If you have a bulk market in your town. Cleaning supplies are often one of the number one things that they sell because they’re super shelf stable. So look around. Longmont has one. Denver has a few. And see what types of bulk options are available for you to buy refills. And then also as a fun part of that you get to buy like cute ceramic or glass hand soap dispensers to you know make your house really cute.

Joy: Which I really appreciate. I feel like I notice that when people have cute soap dispensers at their house. Like this is really great.

Claire: Totally. However I will also say that kind of the number one tenant of going lower waste is like don’t throw out all your plastic and replace it with glass and whatever right off the bat. Use your plastic ones reuse them for as long as you can. And then once they get to the point where – you know there does come a time. They’re not designed to be reused and so you probably can only reuse them a handful of times. But don’t just like go trash all your plastic stuff. Also I will say I don’t always buy this but at like Whole Foods, Vitamin Cottage, I think you can definitely get them online. They have these dissolvable laundry detergent strips. They are often sold in biodegradable packaging. It’s basically a condensed version of laundry soap because you know a lot of what you’re doing with laundry soap is just water with laundry detergent but you’re pouring it into a vat full of water. So either use of powder which comes in a cardboard box that you can recycle the tide powder is great for that if you’re if you’re sensitive, right but if you’re a little bit a little bit more sensitive skin, or you know you’re sensitive to fragrances or whatever, there are some dissolvable laundry –

Joy: Like free of everything. Oh yeah.

Claire: They’re like these sheets. It’s almost like, imagine like a giant – gosh, what were those things called? Those breath mints strips?

Joy: Yeah. Like Listerine strips.

Claire: You guys remember the Lysol strips?

Joy: Listerine.

Claire: Listerine, Listerine. Not Lysol. Please don’t drink Lysol. Don’t put Lysol in your mouth. Listerine.

Joy: Trump is talking to you.

Claire: The QAnon van is outside. It’s basically an enormous version of that except it was made out of laundry detergent and you can put it in. I actually found them to be really effective and our laundry, I mean, we go through a lot of laundry. Our laundry loads are humongous, and our laundry is really stinky. Kids’ clothes get dirty in a way that adult clothes do not. They actually get spills and just dirt, like actual just dirt. I just look at the clothes and I’m like, what have you been doing? Were you rolling around in the ground all day long? And the answer is yes, yes, they were. So those are some good options.

Joy: Fantastic. All right. I love cleaning products and it’s like the time of year when like pretty soon the fall scents are coming out.

Claire: I know, your Trader Joe’s trip is coming up.

Joy: I’ve got to prepare. I’ve got to train for it.

Claire: You’ve got to make a reel about it. I hope you’re ready to make some content.

Joy: [singing] I’m ready to make you some content. Bo Burnham, anyone? Okay. Next vacations for each of you? Well, we know we’re Claire’s going. I don’t have vacation planned yet. But that’s not because – I was talking to you about this. We were talking about this last week about like, I don’t feel the need to take a lot of vacation right now. Because, A, puppy raising sometimes it’s just hard logistics. But I don’t feel like we need a vacation right now. Like we’re going to, we’re going to eventually go back to Hawaii, I’m sure. But we have nothing planned as of yet.

Claire: Yeah, I was going to ask if you’re going to Hawaii. This feels like this time of year you normally go you haven’t been able to go the last couple years.

Joy: We’ll probably go next year maybe. I don’t know. I think COVID just really kind of –

Claire: It’s hard with the dogs.

Joy: Yeah, it’s hard with the dogs and COVID just kind of like slowed everything down for us. And we just are like, We’re fine. We’re fine, guys. We’ll figure it out. Has there been anything positive that was a result from diet culture? Your face says it all. The fact that we paused for a long time –

Claire: I’m really trying to think about it. I mean, I don’t…

Joy: Well, here’s the thing. The positive thing from diet culture has brought all the bullshit to the surface. So sure, everything used to be kind of like, you know, we had – if you want to go listen to Maintenance Phase, they go through all the diets. It’s an amazing podcast if you want to go through the history of diets. But if you think about the 80s where everything was low fat, low calorie, fat free this, fat free that.

Claire: Right.

Joy: And so people started really following diets, I would say a little bit blindly, because I’m not sure what was really prevalent in the 60s and 70s. But I feel like at least on my radar, just because of the age that I was that I saw it on television. And then like 90s 2000s, I feel like the internet really brought to the surface that diet culture is BS. So sure, I think diet culture ran its course and now we can push against it. I know that’s a little bit of a non-answer. But that’s what I think

Claire: it’s hard to imagine reverse engineering diet culture out of our society. And so it’s hard to say like, oh, well, without diet culture, we wouldn’t have body positivity. I can’t say that for sure. Because the reality is that as long as there have been human societies, or at least that we know of, there have been preferences for different physical attributes.

Joy: Correct.

Claire: That really aren’t grounded in anything other than just the trends of the time. So it’s hard to say like, oh, well, if diet culture wasn’t around, then you know, there would be no fatphobia. We can’t necessarily say that to be true. Because who knows what would have taken the place, or who knows what other culture –

Joy: I mean, we can go down a long history of people, racism, classism.

Claire: Absolutely.

Joy: We could go down the long history.

Claire: That’s what I mean. You know, we definitely blame culture for a lot. But at the same time, diet culture was a symptom of a larger problem as well. It wasn’t necessarily the cause of all of this. And so it’s hard for me to say if diet culture was useless and we didn’t get anything out of it. Because I think in some ways it’s not bad to put a microscope over these different metabolic functions of the human body and learn what we’ve learned because of diet culture. I think the way that that information has been used has kind of like been used against us in a lot of ways. But that might be something I would say what’s positive about it is that we have a lot more information about the way that fat and carbs and protein and everything impacts our bodies that we probably wouldn’t have had without it. But I’ll have to think about that once more.

Joy: Yeah. Maybe we’ll talk about that with Sassy. That’d be a good Sassy question. PMD microdermabrasion review? So I got that tool that everyone thought was a vibrator.

Claire: Not a vibrator.

Joy: Not a vibrator. It is amazing. So it has this little – it’s the thing that sucks the dirt off your face, like when you go get a facial, Claire, and they use that little vacuum. It’s kind of like that. I will say there’s a learning curve like any tool of how to use it. So you do have to kind of like start chill, and then you can ramp it up. Because it has like levels of suckage. Feels really weird saying that. It feels great.

Claire: Still not talking about a vibrator

Joy: Definitely not, and it is great. I’m kind of obsessed with products on my face right now. So I’m using the Ordinary line, which you can get at the Ulta in Target. Which is another just dream the Ulta in Target, the Starbucks in Target. Like what else is target going to come up with? The Ordinary is a great brand for serums. I love their undereye. Caffeine produces puffy eyes. Anyway PMD. I will say I wouldn’t buy it full price. The fact that I got it like the Nordstrom sale $100 cheaper than the retail price. I would not pay $300 for it. $200? Sure, that’s like two facials worth.

Claire: Right.

Joy: But I’m going to have it for a while. I’ll get a lot of use out of it. But I wouldn’t pay $300 for it. So wait till it goes on sale again.

Claire: Black Friday or something

Joy: Exactly. Which is right around the corner.

Claire: You know I hate that phrase.

Joy: I know you do. What are Joy’s recommendations for high quality T shirts again? That is James Perse. Forever and ever favorite brand of clothing. But listen, guys and gals and people, do not buy it full price. You know my rule with anything, don’t buy it full price. You can get it on sale always a Nordstrom Rack. So I always just go the Nordstrom Rack website. And I searched James Perse. And I sort by newest. And I look through the things that have just arrived and I buy it in my size. They do have weird sizing. Their sizing is 1,2,3,4. So just look at their measurements. For reference, I’m a size three in their shirts. Large shoulders, and I like things a little bit baggier in their style. They last. I probably have shirts of theirs of that line that have been 10 plus years. They don’t fade, they don’t break apart. They last forever and ever. I wash my clothes all the time. They stand the test of time, except for white. White gets little pit stains, but you can get those out with bleach.

Claire: Yeah, that’s not their fault.

Joy: It really isn’t. All right.

Claire: Your dirty body is not their fault.

Claire: Just to weigh in on this. I really liked the Everlane boxy cut T shirts. If you’re a little bit more petite, they are a little bit cropped, but if you are a little petite then it’s kind of just like hits you right at the top of your hips, which is really a nice flattering cut with the high waisted jeans. Which also if you’re petite maybe you’re running into the problem that I’m having where like all the jeans have a 12-inch rise. And that is like to my diaphragm. I have multiple pairs of jeans right now that come up to above my ribcage.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: I was wearing a pair the other day and I like tried to take a picture. I was going to do reel. And I stood in from of the camera, and I was like, I look like half pants right now. My body is just half pants.

Joy: Just eating up half your body.

Claire: Did not make the reel. Because all I can see is this like 12-inch fly.

Joy: Oh, that’s so funny. Okay.

Claire: But Everlane.

Joy: Everlane. That’s good. I have one of their shirts too. Ideal birthday day? Do you have an ideal birthday day? You’d get up and go on a hike probably,

Claire: Um, ideal birthday day. Okay, so here’s my here’s my question. My follow up question. My birthday is at the end of November. And so my ideal day can’t really take place at the end of November. Because it’s normally like –

Joy: Well, would you fly somewhere? Where would you go?

Claire: Maybe, yeah. I mean, if we’re talking ideal ideal, I’d probably like get up go get on a private jet.

Joy: I was going to say I’m going to get on a private jet and go somewhere.

Claire: Yeah. And maybe I would at the strike of midnight, I got on our private jet, and I’d go either somewhere with like some really nice mountains or somewhere with the beach. I’m not picky. Either or. I’d eat some really good baked goods. Maybe I go to France and pick up a croissant. And then I would just like relax and hang out. And while I was gone, I would have someone like sanitize my house and clean all the things and do all the house projects that need to get done so that when I could come home, my house would be exactly the way I wanted it. Yeah, that sounds nice.

Joy: That sounds amazing. I would take a private jet to Los Angeles. And I’d drink juices all day and I’d shop you.

Claire: You would just sit in Erewhon.

Joy: I would sit in Erewhon and I would try every product. Every product is so –

Claire: Joy would just rent out Erewhon for yourself and any celebrities that want to come.

Joy: Any celebrities, you’re welcome to join. I would shop. I would go to all the stores in Hollywood and all the stores that Cupcakes and Cashmere goes to because they look adorable.

Claire: You basically like live your dream Southern California influencer birthday life. I like that.

Joy: I’d go to Mozza. You want to come with me? Come on over.

Claire: I will come back for that. I’ll come back from my birthday croissants to have some Nancy Silverton.

Joy: Alright. That’s lovely, lovely, lovely.

Claire: Alright, that really is it for today.

Joy: That’s it for today.

Claire: You can find us on Instagram at @joyandclaire_. You can find us online at joyandclaire.com. You can email us thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. Don’t forget to support our sponsor, Ned. That’s helloned.com/JOY or use discount code JOY today for 15% off your order. Try out their new Brain Blend. You’re going to love it. And we will talk to you next week.

Joy: See you later.

Claire: Bye.

Joy: Bye.

132: She Moved On

June 23, 2022 by Joy Parrish Leave a Comment

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Cadet’s graduation, Joy’s COVID experience, mid-life crisis and why we break down in airports!

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 132: She Moved On

Episode Date: June 23, 2022

Transcription Completed: August 8, 2022

Audio Length: 51:31 minutes

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: I don’t even know how to start this episode. I was really hesitant to be chipper because I had this feeling yesterday where I’m like, I think I’m in a midlife crisis, and I don’t know how to talk about it.

Claire: I don’t know what I thought you were about to say, but that is not it.

Joy: That’s not it?

Claire: Okay, let’s pause. Let’s give a little context into the last ten days of your life. When we last left our heroes, Joy and Claire, you had not even gone to Cadet’s graduation yet.

Joy: No. No.

Claire: You’ve been through a lot.

Joy: Been through a lot since the last recording. This is why I hate recording in advance when there’s a lot going on. So many reasons. Because so much happens, and when I listen to the episode, I’m like oh my gosh, so much has happened, this is old news. You can probably tell by my voice that I’m getting over something. I did have Covid, so that’s a fun news alert. Where do I begin? Where do we want to start?

Claire: Claire and Joy finally got Covid. That’s a good place to start. I wonder if this is how it feels for the Great British Baking contestants when they know how the season ends and we’re all freaking out about who goes home in week one. Old news, old news.

Joy: Yeah, that’s so true.

Claire: Pretty much the same. We’re pretty much the Baking Show.

Joy: I was over it. I was over it. Well… I don’t even know where to begin, but I will start with Cadet’s graduation. Alright. So we go to her graduation on Thursday. We leave Thursday, June 9. We get there. I’m so excited. It’s just the most amazing feeling of being able to be reunited with her. We had the agenda. They were like, get there at 9. You’re going to meet the graduate. You’ll have an hour with the graduate, and then you’ll have an hour with your dog separately. Then the graduation ceremony. So we were prepared for that. Scott wasn’t feeling great, but he tested every single day, and it was negative. We think it was allergies because we have two huge cottonwood trees in our backyard. Not to mention the neighborhood has a bunch of cottonwood trees. It’s a horrible time of year. It just looks like snow. It looks like snow is coming down from the sky because there is so much cottonwood in the air. So we’re chalking it up to allergies. Fine, fine, fine. And he’s worried because he’s like, “If this turns into Covid, I’m not going to go to graduation.” I’m willing this to not be Covid. And by the way, it was not Covid. So we thought. You can only test so many times. He tested every single day, sometimes twice a day because we were so worried about going to this graduation. We were wearing masks and clear face shields the whole time because the graduates need to lip read. So we had clear face shields. It was all protected. So he was able to go, spoiler alert. We were just worried the whole time he was sick. And I was worried, “Oh my gosh, I need to go to this wedding in two days.” So it starts out a little bit stressful. Bless Scott, but when he’s sick, he’s insufferable to be around. He’s just constantly – is Brandon like that?

Claire: You know that he is.

Joy: I mean, I know he stuffs tissues up his nose.

Claire: I mean, yeah, that’s really just indicative of the whole thing. If you’re new here and did not know this about my husband, any time he has a stuffy nose or is the least bit sick, takes wads of toilet paper, shoves them up his nostrils, and walks around the house with a blanket over his head moaning. Any time he’s sick. I’m like, if you’re going to suffer, can you go do it in the other room?

Joy: Do you have to be the ghost of whining, the ghost of illness?

Claire: Right. Do you have to be like the ghost of husbands past?

Joy: You might as well give him chains to shake around the house and be like [moaning].

Claire: Right. It was so great though. The other day, he did that. He had allergies, and he had these snot rags in. He walks out. And Evie had said she wanted to read a book, I think. Brandon was like, “Okay, hold on.” He goes into the bathroom to shove the toilet paper in his nose. And Evie goes, “Take that out.” I was like, “I agree Evie.” Brandon was like, “Come on, Evie. It’s time to read.” And she was like, “No, take that out.” He listens to her. I was like, yes. Evie is in control. She knows what’s up. Yes, he is insufferable. He tries not to be. He’s gotten better.

Joy: Okay. Scott has not. He just gets very whiny when he’s sick, I don’t know. Anyway. It started out kind of stressful because I was worried about that. But we got there, and I feel great. He was still kind of feeling so-so. We get there and our room wasn’t ready, so we had to wait a long time. The battery on my phone was dying, and I had food that I wanted to eat in the room. So the whole beginning of the day, we were just fighting and gripey with each other. I just wanted to go in the hotel room and sit and eat my meal. But it was a great hotel, by the way. The Seabird, it was wonderful. If anyone goes to Oceanside, it’s the cutest hotel. And they were really nice and gave us some upgrades because they didn’t have our room ready for like five hours later than we had checked in. So the graduation morning, we get there and we meet with the Canine Companions graduate coordinator. It’s so good to see people in person. A lot of these people remember graduated with a Canine Companions dog, so I knew a lot of the people going into this. Seeing them face-to-face – actually, it was a little bit bittersweet because flying in all I could think of was, the last time I was here we were turning Cadet in. So it was a little bit bittersweet, but it was so good to see a lot of familiar faces in person. So they gave us the rundown about the graduates and what to expect. So we walk in and we meet Amber, his graduate. Immediately – I don’t know why, but immediately she was not at all what I was expecting. I didn’t know what to expect, but she’s not at all what I expected. It was just like, oh my gosh, you’re not at all what I was expecting. She was so sweet. We immediately sat down and talked for like an hour. I was nervous. I think I had nervous energy because it was the most surreal feeling in the world to be there. I think I had a bazillion emotions going on because I was nostalgic for Canine Companions, which just has a special place in my heart from the history I have there with JT, turning in Cadet and having that memory, and then all of the sudden the overwhelm of being there. And we were with seven other teams. There were other people there that were meeting their dog. Everyone was just nervous excitement. I remember sitting down. We brought the baby book I’d made with all the photos of Cadet when she was younger. We brought Cadet’s favorite toys when we were raising her. So immediately instead of giving her the bag, I just start opening everything in the bag. I was like, “Here. Here are some things that we brought you.” So I open the baby book and just start going through the pictures and immediately start crying. It was so weird. I don’t know why I think that I’m going to be able to hold it together, but the entire time, I’m fine. Totally fine. People are talking to me about Cadet’s graduation. And I’m detached because it’s been six months since we’ve seen her. So I’m totally cool as a cucumber. “Yeah, it’s great. We’re going to see her graduate. She’s going to be a hearing dog. Wonderful.” This is the joke that I play on myself. This is where last year when I was turning her in, I kept saying “feel your feelings” because what I tend to do is stuff them down, and I’m like,” It’s going to be fine. It’s going to be great. It’s just a transaction, and no one is going to cry.” That did not happen. So immediately going through the baby book, I start bawling my eyes out. And I feel kind of dumb because you don’t want the graduate to feel bad. You don’t want the graduate to know be like, “Um, you know…”

Claire: I’m stealing your dog… sorry.

Joy: And I was not crying from that place where I was devastated and heartbroken. I was just more like, oh my gosh, just a happy…

Claire: It was more… what’s that word?

Joy: Emotionally?

Claire: Nostalgic.

Joy: Oh, super nostalgic. And then I got to the picture – anyway. I can’t talk about it. And I’m going to cry. Fuck.

Claire: I will say by the way, I don’t think you were playing it as cool as you think you were going up to it. Maybe you thought you were imagining that you were projecting this cool as a cucumber, “Oh yeah, I’m just going to meet her and hand her off.” But, uh… I mean, you didn’t get that emotional. But I feel like every time you talked about it, there was this kind of nervous energy about it a little bit.

Joy: So going through the baby book and I start crying. I’m like, “Dang it, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to start crying.” I kind of apologize because I don’t want her to feel uncomfortable. But she was just so, so sweet. We had a lovely conversation. She talked about what led her to get to CCI and match with a dog and her expectations of what she thought she wanted in a dog and when she met Cadet. It was lovely. And then [tearing up]. Ah, fuck… ugh, feel your feelings. I’m so pissed that I’m still crying over this. I have to go back to work today. [pause] They put you in a room, and they’re like, “We’re going to bring your dog out.” And then I hear her name, and she comes up to us, and she’s cute and happy and smiley. I posted the video. She recognized us, and she ran up to us, but it was so clear that she wasn’t our dog anymore. And that was like… Sandy put it this way. Because I kept saying it was like a boyfriend that you have to let go of. She’s like, “It’s actually more like when you marry someone off, a daughter or a son.” And you have this very heartbroken feeling. You’ve spent your whole life with them, and then they’re gone. I immediately thought of Father of the Bride when Steve Martin is like, “Oh, it’s not my little girl anymore” and she gets married off. I don’t know how it feels to marry off a child. And you know how I feel about comparing children to animals, but that’s the closest thing I could think of. Because everyone is like, “Oh, did she recognize you?” And even the trainers are like, “They’ll recognize you, but” – and she did. But I was like, oh, and she’s moved on.

Claire: Did they tell you that that was going to happen?

Joy: No, no, no, they don’t tell you. And I don’t think people are analyzing it as much as I innately knew. She’s playing with us and being Cadet.

Claire: Right. She’s excited to see you, but she’s not like, “Oh my gosh, you finally came back for me.”

Joy: No. Which I think would be worse.

Claire: It would be worse. I completely agree with you. It would be so much worse.

Joy: I think it would be so much worse. But I didn’t expect that. And I didn’t get all these emotions I think until after we left. But it was really hard because you’re so happy, but also you’re like, she’s gone. The finality of it was really hard because she was gone, meaning she’s moved on. And throughout the whole training, you kind of see her progress and you know she’s still in training, so you’re still kind of the point person for her. You’re not the owner per se, but you’re the point person for her.

Claire: Right. You’re the emergency contact.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: You’re still getting her reports. You’re still the person they call if something goes wrong.

Joy: Yeah. And so that’s kind of where it’s like, she’s a graduate. She’s a graduate dog. She was amazing, and she was so sweet and so loving. But that’s where I was like, she’s not ours. I want to be clear, it’s not like I was mad about it, but it just kind of breaks your heart at the same time. So we got to spend an hour with her. We took a bunch of pictures, and it was great. Then we do graduation. I think the coolest part for me – I mean, I cried through the whole graduation because it was so cool to just see how these dogs are going to change people’s lives. I think the coolest part was when – so people who watched it, you may have seen on the left side all the puppy raisers sat, and then on the right side all the graduates sat. And the puppy raisers and the graduates would meet in the middle, and the puppy raisers would turn the dog over to the graduate and pass the leash, so to speak, is the ceremony that they’ve done over the years. And they do this with every graduate. Service dog, hearing dog, whatever. The thing that I noticed is all the service dogs with the puppy raisers, when we were sitting on the left side, all the dogs were really squirrelly, and they were moving around. We noticed Cadet was walking around a lot and rubbing up against me. They kind of had this weird nervous energy. Not in a bad way, but I definitely noticed it. And the second they got turned over to their graduate, the dogs were just passed out asleep next to their person. I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, it’s perfect. Everyone has their match, and they’re comfortable and they’re settled. It was so cool. It was so cool to see. She was very in tune with Amber. The second Amber would walk by, Cadet’s head would perk up and she would watch her. It was amazing. But that was so hard to leave. And her family was so generous. They were like, “Any time you want to come stay with us, you can stay in our house.” Amber’s parents were there. They were so kind because they’re considered local. They’re only an hour away from Oceanside. So her parents were inviting us to stay with them. And they really meant it. They were so genuine. Her grandpa was giving me a hug, and her grandma was so excited and really spunky and said something funny that I can’t remember. She just made me laugh. It was all-in-all, that was so beyond perfect. It was emotionally so hard to just all of the sudden go on an airplane and fly to Arizona and then go to a wedding that weekend. I don’t think I would have done it like that ever again. Next time, don’t plan back-to-back trips. Not only that, Scott decided to stay home. For a number of reasons. Mainly managing all of our pets and the house and his work schedule. I’m like, “I’ll go to the wedding. It’s fine. I’m going to go to Arizona. You just please hold down the fort.”

Claire: So not stay home. He flew home from the graduation.

Joy: Sorry. Yeah, he flew home from the graduation, and I flew to Arizona. So we had this split up at the airport, which I could not emotionally handle either. The second he’s like, “Alright, you’ve got to go on this bus, and I…” All of the sudden being alone without him also made me cry. So I was just in the worst spot, and I just started… I think I posted about this. You have to laugh at some point when you’re just so emotional. He was flying United. I was flying Southwest. I remember talking about the San Diego airport in a recent trip we did or last year. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I love it.” No, I don’t. I take it back. I think the last time we flew, it was totally empty and not an issue. But I take back what I said. I do not love the San Diego airport. What happened was, I go through security and it is so busy. Just packed. Nobody is wearing a mask. I am wearing a mask the entire time I’m traveling, by the way. I couldn’t find a place to sit. I’m emotionally wrecked. Just so wrecked. So I can’t find a place to sit. I’m wanting to just sit in the middle of a restaurant and cry and drink myself silly because I don’t know what else to do. Oh, and my phone is dying. There’s no plugs anywhere because it’s that situation where everyone is sitting near a plug. People are sitting on the ground. Not one space to sit. I then think, I’m going to go look for some food. In my delirium, I start walking towards some other – it says, oh, you’re going to go to this gate. And part of me is like, this is closer to the gate where I’m flying out of. So I turn this corner, which basically just spit me back out into baggage claim. I am all of the sudden not near any gates or food. I’m back out near baggage claim.

Claire: Did you have to go through security again?

Joy: Oh yeah, I did. But here’s the kicker. I was in the wrong terminal. Southwest has two terminals, and I just wasn’t paying attention. The guy who was checking and saying this is B10 to whatever… I wasn’t listening. Because I was just, again, not in my right mind. I was like, screw this. I’ve got to go get some food. Got some food, sat and ate. And then I look up at the TV and it says your flight it delayed. And I cannot. It said 10 minutes. I said, 10 minutes I can do.

Claire: It’s never 10 minutes.

Joy: Never.

Claire: I feel like 10 minutes must be the default that they put in before they have the details. It’s like what shows up while it’s buffering.

Joy: Totally. Or they’re like, we’re just going to give you a heads up that this flight it cancelled. We’re going to start with 10 minutes. So I look up and I’m like, ugh, it’s delayed. I see it go from 10 minutes to 30 minutes to an hour. I’m like, this ain’t good because if I’ve learned anything from Scott Parrish, the travel pro, is that they are just trying to delay the fact that the flight is going to get cancelled. I immediately start panicking. I can’t sit in this God forsaken airport one more hour and just wait for a flight while I am emotionally breaking down. You guys, I understand that this is very drama filled. This is just the reality of where I was.

Claire: I also feel like nothing is as dramatic… how am I trying to phrase this? The most dramatic feelings are felt in an airport. I feel like if you are in an airport and you are by yourself and the world is buzzing all around you –

Joy: So many things are out of your control.

Claire: I’ve told the story before of when I broke down ugly crying in the security line at LAX because the security guard took away my snow globe when I was traveling. I was in New Zealand when the 3 ounces of liquid rule happened, and I flew home with this thing in my carry one. It stupidly counted as liquid, even though it was a snow globe. They took it away, and I was sobbing because my boyfriend had broken up with me in New Zealand. And I also have spent a lot of time sobbing in the Vancouver airport in a corner. Where else? Oh, the Seattle airport. That’s when that lady came up to me and gave me a hug. I know I’ve told that story. Because a boyfriend broke up with me again. In Vancouver, I was just having a nervous breakdown because I had just been in the woods for 30 days and then I had to go to the Vancouver airport and couldn’t cope.

Joy: Airports are where a lot of things happen.

Claire: It’s a lot. There’s a lot going on. There’s a lot of feelings.

Joy: So many feelings.

Claire: And you cannot be alone. Maybe this is just people who… flying does not make me nervous inherently. Being up in the air in a metal tube, I’m fine with. But the process of flying puts me on so much edge that I feel like I’m already right at my limit just being a part of that activity. Going to an airport, I’m already at my limit.

Joy: Yeah. This is where I was like, I will do anything to be wealthy enough to have a private jet. That’s the thought that was going through my head.

Claire: One million percent.

Joy: At this point, [UNSURE 00:21:24.07] is there a 40+ accounts for OnlyFans because I’m ready.

Claire: Who wants feet pics? You can have them. I don’t think you’re going to get there through our Joy and Claire Patreon that we never activated. But hear our plea listeners. Joy and Claire need to fly private.

Joy: We will come and pick you up, I swear.

Claire: We will come and pick you up. There will be a platinum membership you can have on our plane if you donate more than like $30. That is a steal.

Joy: That is a steal. And you get to ride with us. I don’t know what else to tell you.

Claire: The problem is that we’re going to need 100,000 of you to donate.

Joy: Oh God. But that was literally going through my mind. You know what, I will do anything. I will sell and do anything to not sit – I was in such a place, guys. Where am I? What did I leave off?

Claire: Hold on. I would just like to make a callout for anyone who has a dramatic airport story. We all have the airport horror stories of things going wrong and people being horrible logistically. I am more interested in, have you experience an emotional crisis in an airport? The thing is, people travel during very tragic times in their lives. If there is an emergency in your family or someone suddenly passes away, you have to use an airport. A lot of big transitions happen right before you fly. Whether you are moving somewhere or you are leaving for college. Tell us about an interaction that you had in an airport that should have been benign but was so emotionally charged that you just broke down in tears.

Joy: Yeah. Well I’m about to tell you mine that continues. It just keeps unraveling. So I get some food, I eat. I’m eating outside of the terminal watching the delay just continue. So I’m like, well I have to eat this food before I go back through security because can’t bring the drink. I got a beverage. Can’t bring liquid. That was a dumb choice.

Claire: At that point, if they try to take your beverage, it’s going to be over.

Joy: Oh, over. So I eat my meal and go again through security. I have to throw away my beverage because I am just not in the mood to sit here and down a soda. And I wanted to get closer to the gate to see if I could get any information about how long it was going to be. If you have not yet gotten on the website, I think it’s called Flight Tracker or flight something, you can actually see where your flight is coming from. I do that all the time, just to see is the plane that I’m actually supposed to be on even leaving from where it’s coming from.

Claire: The United app has that in their –

Joy: The United app does. Southwest does not, so I had to get on Flight Tracker or whatever. So I see that it’s not leaving – I think it was Tahoe. But anyway, doesn’t matter. It wasn’t leaving. So I go through security. I go through again to see if I can get more information. I sit at a chair for a while, and that’s when I’m doing Instagram. I’m answering questions because I have all the time in the world. Then I see the flight is pushed out another hour and a half, I think. So at this point, I’m in the airport for four hours total just sitting around. With elbow to elbow, shoulder to shoulder people. Here’s where I lose it. I then realize I’m not going make this flight tonight. This flight is very at risk of being cancelled, so I’m going to try to get on another flight that’s leaving around the same time. It doesn’t matter now. This flight is leaving at 7pm. There’s another flight that’s leaving at 6:45, so I’m going to try to make the 6:45 flight. So I get to the gate agent and talk to her. We get the flight switched. So goes, “Oh actually, you have to go through the other terminal.” This is the third time I go through security. “You have to go to the other terminal because it leaves out of B2.” I’m like, okay. So I forget that while I’m sitting in that terminal, I had filled up my water bottle. I’m having a nice little drink of water by myself. Not even thinking that I have to go through security the third time, and I have water in my water bottle. I also get checked through the third time through security. I also get checked for a random scan of my electronics because I have two laptops. I need one for work and one for the podcast. So they check my electronics. And the guy is like, “Oh, you have water in here. You can either go through security again and drink it all or throw it away.” I don’t know the other option he gave me. You can either go back, empty it, throw it away, or there was a third option I don’t remember. Maybe there wasn’t.

Claire: Throw it in my face out of pure rage.

Joy: Yeah. Part of me wanted to be like, “Is there an option C where you just turn the other way?”

Claire: Right. Is there an option C where we just know this is fountain drinking water and this is the stupidest rule?

Joy: And thank goodness for TSA. This is not a TSA thing. I know they are doing their job. That is the first thing I go through my head. Every person is a terrorist in their mind. I know that I can’t fight them on this. I did not even try to, but in my mind I’m like, please just have mercy on my soul. I just have to say, I actually did start crying behind my mask. Thank goodness I had a mask on because they probably would have been like, woah, this lady is actually at risk for doing something. He starts going through my laptops. He’s checking my laptops, and he’s giving me a lecture about not carrying water through security. I did tell him, “Oh, I am so sorry. I just came from the other terminal. Totally forgot.” Normally when I come to the airport, I’m not filling up my water bottle.

Claire: I’m not an idiot. Right. I have in fact flown since 2006. Spare me your lecture.

Joy: Yes, please spare me the lecture. I am a seasoned traveler sir. I have a husband who would probably lecture me for you.

Claire: He would die of embarrassment.

Joy: He would die of embarrassment. I’m sitting there going, I was in the other terminal. I just wasn’t thinking. My brain is not even working guys. He is giving me a lecture and then he goes, “You know, next time just put ice in there.” I’m like, “Ice is water, sir.” I didn’t say this. But, ice? He goes, “You can bring in ice and just fill it up when you get past security.” I’m thinking, so not the point. I don’t care about your lecture about water. Please give me my computers.

Claire: I am not crying out of fear of dehydration.

Joy: No, no, no. And he said it probably five times to really nail home the point.

Claire: Got it. Got it. I got the ice.

Joy: “You can put ice in there, and next time you just can’t bring water through. But you can put ice in there.”

Claire: Got it.

Joy: I’m like… mamma. The guy says, “Do you want to throw it away, or do you want to keep it?” I said, “Just toss it.” Immediately regretted my decision as I watched him carry my water bottle. It was a nice, whatever those metal ones are. Nice. It’s a small one. [sigh] But we’ve had it for ages. It had a Canine Companions sticker on it, and I just thought, I’m never going to get that back. I start crying. Not in front of them, but I start crying behind my mask. I take my bags and I go up the stairs. It was ugly cry. Not even a mask will save you.

Claire: And the more you try to resist it, the more it’s bubbling up.

Joy: Totally. It’s the word vomit of cry, and I just start sobbing and tears are squirting out my eyes. People are walking towards me, totally looking at me like, “Oh no. Is she okay?” I wish someone that saw me would have given me a hug. And then I go into the bathroom, and I sit in the stall, and I just bawl. Just get it out. This is so dumb. You’re going to laugh at this one day. But you’re just so emotionally raw that you have to get emotional over losing a water bottle that you could easily replace. So finally get to Arizona, finally get to my friend’s house. We have a good laugh over me losing the water bottle. I told her the story on the drive home. I’ve never been so happy to be out of an airport and into a house and a home. So let’s take a quick break. [laughing] My story.

Claire: Let’s take a breather. We still have to hear about your midlife crisis.

Joy: Wait, you have to hear about my what?

Claire: Your midlife crisis.

Joy: Oh my gosh.

Claire: You forgot already that you opened this whole episode with you’re going through a midlife crisis.

Joy: Yeah, I’m just leaving everybody hanging. It’s probably no surprise at this point that something is going on with me.

Claire: I was about to say, maybe we should wait another week and see how you feel.

Joy: I don’t know. It’s been lingering. Maybe Ned can save me.

Claire: I know, if anyone can. So we want to tell you guys about our favorite CBD company, Ned. Ned is the maker of our favorite CBD products and also some of our other favorite botanical products or mineral products. I love their Mellow drink blend, which I take every night. As well as the Daily Blend, which is their full-spectrum hemp tincture. The way I use it is I take the CBD right after I brush my teeth. I take the mellow probably about an hour before I go to bed. So it’s like Mellow, hang out for a minute, and then CBD right before bedtime. It does taste a little skunky, but I have come to enjoy it. It just really helps calm me down. The magnesium is actually also something that my neurologist suggested for my migraines. It also helps me. I have restless legs and restless arms. Obviously, this is not medical advice. This is just the way that I use it. But a lot of people reach out to us and say, “Hey, can you tell us exactly what it is that you’re doing with it and exactly what you use to find it effective?” So that is how I love to use it. Those are my favorite products. I just got a new batch, got delivered last week. It was so exciting. When it shows up, you’re just like –

Joy: So excited.

Claire: My little allies are here.

Joy: I know. I’ve got to over mine. I’ve said this before, but the Mellow Magnesium is so helpful when you really need to feel calm. The second I drink it, I’m like [sigh].

Claire: And it tastes good. It’s this nice little ritual. Now I feel like when I start to drink the magnesium – maybe this is a placebo effect – but it feels like my body is like, okay, it’s almost bedtime. You can sort of start to chill. And it signals not just the ingredients but also the ritual of drinking it and making it tells my body, okay, it’s time to wind down.

Joy: That’s what they say about sleep is make a routine so your body gets the signal it’s sleepy time. The other thing I love is Ned has full transparency. They share their third-party lab reports, who farms their products, and their extraction process. All right there on their site. You can support the podcast, become the best version of yourself, and get 15% off Ned products with code JOY. Go to helloned.com/JOY or enter code JOY at checkout. That’s helloned.com/JOY to get 15% off. Thank you, Ned, for sponsoring the show and offering our listeners a natural remedy for some of life’s most common health issues.

Claire: Alright. So to recap the following couple of days. You went to this great wedding. It was fantastic. And then you’re feeling a little under the weather, tested for Covid just to be sure but were pretty sure you didn’t have it, and then lo and behold it’s positive.

Joy: Mmhmm.

Claire: You found your way back to Colorado as safe as you could. You have just emerged from the Covid timeframe.

Joy: Yeah, just emerged from the Covid timeframe. Which thank goodness, this is where I’m like, for the two years I have dodged Covid somehow and who knows where I got it. I don’t think it was at the wedding. It could have been at the wedding. The numbers didn’t add up as far as when I started having symptoms. It really could have been anywhere, to be honest. At this point, everything seems to be risky. And I think what really hit home for me with this experience, I just have to say, is how important it is to still be careful and get vaccinated. I am so grateful that I have the vaccine and the booster because my symptoms were pretty darn mild. I attribute it to the vaccine and the booster, but you just never know. It hits people so different. Every single person that’s had Covid has told me a different version of what they experienced. I was just grateful that my symptoms improved pretty quickly, meaning they say after day five that you’ve tested positive that if your symptoms are improving, continue to wear a mask but you can go out. I’ve just been more on the careful side of only going out if I have to grab groceries or food or something. But it was pretty darn mild. I was just terrified because I was around my family. I made sure everyone tested to make sure they didn’t get it. It kind of ruined the trip from the standpoint of I had to cut it early to get home safely so I wasn’t around the people I was staying with. Because they have elderly people in the house. It was all around a very bad situation. So I don’t know if I’m going to be traveling any time soon. That really freaked me out. But where did I leave off? I feel like this whole episode is just me yapping and trapping.

Claire: Well, we were going to talk about your midlife crisis.

Joy: Okay. I’m going to gloss over it because here is what I want people to weigh in on. I kind of tongue and cheek say midlife crisis, but I would say in the past six months – four months, I don’t know. Four to six months. I’ve been feeling kind of chronic doom and gloom. At first, I was like, maybe this is still seasonal affective disorder. This is just the state of the world. Maybe it’s a lot of things. And it very well could be. I see a lot of people in practice in therapy where the daily drains of the pandemic and the state of the world, they kind of chip away like a death by a thousand paper cuts kind of thing is finally starting to kick in. At least for me, that’s what it feels like. I’m starting to get into that mode of, are things ever going to get better? You start kind of catastrophizing the world. I know everyone can kind of relate to this on some level. But it’s affecting my mood so much that I just can’t get into a happy place. I’m like, am I just experiencing a midlife crisis of existential “what am I doing with my life?” Or is it the weight of the world, just so freaking heavy right now, that it feels like nothing is getting better? So I kind of joke midlife crisis, but maybe there’s more to it. If anyone out there is experiencing that ongoing doom and gloom from what we’ve all collectively experienced the past few years especially, it’s just been a lot. So I didn’t want to put on this happy face that things have been going well, because they haven’t felt good. I know you mentioned that on the last episode of how you can’t even think about the current events because it’s so much. You just can only focus on dealing with what is in front of you with your family. I think what I came to realize is I was pushing so hard to get to a point of feeling okay, and I’m like, I don’t feel okay either, and I don’t really have the energy. All I can do right now is focus on raising these dogs. That’s the only thing I can focus on that gives me a little bit of joy and hope. That’s a little bit scary because that’s a whole thing that I talked about last time. Don’t get to the point where you’re almost giving up in a way. But I don’t know how to course correct. So that’s where I’m at. That’s all.

Claire: I mean, I think midlife crisis is a little bit of it. But maybe if it’s not going to get better now, when is it going to get better.

Joy: Well, let me add to this too, now that I think about it. A lot of mental health professionals are getting super burnt out. Luckily, I work for a company that is so good about taking care of mental health workers. They do a good job. But I don’t know any amount of caretaking you can do to not make it really emotionally draining on you. So I’m starting to see the effects of that, and that’s concerning to me. I hope if my current employer is listening to this, it’s absolutely nothing to do with them at all because they are amazing. But there is a part of me sometimes that wants to be like, can I just go work at Whole Foods and bag groceries? And these moments are fleeting, I get it. But sometimes you want to not have to take on so much – and I’m sure nurses are feeling this way. I’m sure teachers are feeling this way. I’m sure doctors – I mean. [sigh] So it’s a lot.

Claire: I know. As you were describing that feeling of being at a point where there is just so much going on or it feels like it’s relentless or endless, and is it every going to get better, what I was thinking of – and we don’t, again, ascribe to comparative suffering on this podcast. But I think that what you’re describing is something I have heard people, regardless of their career, regardless of their situation really describe it at varying points in the last two years. For some people, it was right away. For some people, I think especially people who had young kids at home or who were not able to keep working felt it immediately. And then maybe it was when the vaccine came out and you had to go head-to-head with people you were close to about their beliefs about the vaccine, and that’s when you started feeling like “I can’t do this anymore.” Or maybe it was when your office opened back up and you had to be back in person. You had to really question the priorities that you had to that company. Maybe that was when you thought, “I can’t do this anymore.” There has been a different breaking point for everyone. I don’t think I know a single person… I think you had a similar thing last year when you were recovering from your job situation. Part of me wonders if the fact that you had that happen sort of covered up a lot of the stuff from the pandemic because you were so focused on getting over that.

Joy: Yeah, and I was like in survival mode. I have one sole focus, which is what am I going to do next with my life. And that can be very true, for sure.

Claire: I think what you’re describing is a really shared experience. I was about to say, midlife crisis might be part of it. Maybe that adds into the factoring of just pondering your mortality, but I think that this is a really universal limit that a lot of people have reached at varying point. And maybe your breaking point was going to the store and for the fifth time they didn’t have the brand of cream cheese that you really wanted. It doesn’t have to be something monumental, but like you were saying, death by a thousand paper cuts. Whether you did have a huge moment of trying to work from home with three school-aged kids and tried to homeschool them or whatever, or whether you got to this point of I just can’t trudge through the mud anymore, I think that what you’re experiencing is so common right now. Not to minimize it at all. Instead to say –

Joy: No. I think that’s where I’m just kind of voicing it. I’m the type of person that tends to be like, “I’m going to handle it. I’m going to be the helper. I’m going to be the one that’s got the crap together.” It’s just exhausting. Will it get better? I think so. But I think I don’t do a good job of acknowledging when I’m in a bad place. Because it kind of scares me that I’m not going to get out of it.

Claire: For sure. I think that also is common – maybe not common, but it’s not like you are broken for feeling that way. There’s nothing about what you’re saying that’s like, “Wow Joy, I really don’t understand where you’re coming from.”

Joy: That’s so weird. I’m over here watching Wizard of Oz and eating popcorn.

Claire: I’m just sitting on the couch eating bonbons all day.

Joy: Which by the way, I know that I tend to do this too when I’m in this sad place – you know my favorite @cupcakesandcashmere account?

Claire: Yes.

Joy: Her Instagram is constant like living in Los Angeles. Every day she’ll go to a bakery.

Claire: She lives your dream life.

Joy: She lives my dream life.

Claire: She goes to Nordstrom like five times a week.

Joy: Shops. Wears cute clothes. Has beautiful, cute family, beautiful home. And I tend to do that cycle of idolizing where I am just like, oh man, my life just totally sucks. I don’t have this. That’s when I know I am in the danger zone. I’m like, stop idolizing someone else’s life.

Claire: She posted the other day. “I just want to be open that I’m going through something really hard right now, and I’m having a hard time.”

Joy: Yeah. She’s the first to admit. “I have panic attacks.” “I have major anxiety.” And I still will do that.

Claire: And you would hate that life. You would hate it.

Joy: Truly. But it’s a way for me to justify that I feel crappy about my life.

Claire: Because you’re not living in a mansion in LA.

Joy: You’re picking at a scab, like I just want to self-inflict this wound, this pain.

Claire: Fair.

Joy: Guys, I’m fine.

Claire: This is not a cry for help.

Joy: No, no, no. I got to air it. We’ve got to let it out. And then we’ve got to deal with it. And we will. [sigh] This was a lot of my heaviness on this episode.

Claire: I cried in last week’s episode, so I think you’re in the clear.

Joy: This is just how it’s going to be.

Claire: You know, the best thing about it is this is Joy and Claire.

Joy: It really is. And life is just the way it is. But we are here for you. We’d love to hear your stories about emotional breakdowns. How are you doing?

Claire: In airports, out of airports. I read something the other day that was talking about summer break and how we’re all so conditioned to look forward to summer and see it as this big release. It’s supposed to be really relaxing and recharging. That’s actually not the reality when you’re an adult. It’s easy to set yourself up for failure when you are imagining the way summer is going to be. And you get halfway through summer, and you’re like, wait a minute. My life is actually kind of the same no matter what I do. Except now in the summer it’s harder to put my kids to bed because it doesn’t get dark until 8:30/9 and I have to pay for my kid to go to camp.

Joy: Well that’s the other thing. I’m glad you brought that up. When I started to feel that lingering sadness continue through the spring and then summer, I’m like, wait a minute. This is supposed to be gone after the winter. Having that expectation of summer to be this magical, fun, happy time. I was like, oh no.

Claire: The only objective thing that’s different is slightly more Vitamin D availability.

Joy: Slightly more. Which I actually was so desperate the other day. I went to Target and bought – I’m sure Laura Ligos would be like, “Joy, it’s not going to work.”

Claire: You bought what?

Joy: I bought Vitamin D dummies that were like happy something. The whole title was like be happy something. I’m sure I could eat this entire thing and it’s not going to fix anything. But the placebo effect. I needed something. And every once in a while, I will do a placebo effect of something.

Claire: Because serotonin is also real. There’s something to that. There’s something to believing that whatever you’re getting going to help and you’re taking actions to fix yourself.

Joy: And they’re delicious and I love gummy vitamins.

Claire: I love a gummy vitamin.

Joy: So my friend is an ER doctor, and she is really involved in Canine Companions as well. We were texting back and forth because she had Covid recently too. She said something about an IV drip for vitamins. I go, “Do those Vitamin D bars actually help?” She’s like, “I don’t see why you can’t absorb vitamins through your mouth.” Yeah, that’s true. Basically you pee the whole thing out. And anyway, I just thought it was funny. I don’t get why you can’t absorb vitamins through your mouth.

Claire: Right. Unless you are in a medical situation where you have to have things delivered in a certain format. Like go drink a Nuun tablet.

Joy: To be fair, I’ve done an IV drop before of those vitamins, just because I wanted a placebo effect. I will do stupid crap like that just to be like, this feels like a fun toy to play with. Anyway, let’s end. Let’s just take a pause on all this so people can chime in. I need some people right now. I need people to come in and say, “This is also something I’m going through.” I need some community support. Selfishly. Maybe it is a cry for help. [laughing]

Claire: We’re just going to leave all this drama – not drama, you know what I mean. We’re going to leave all of this strife here in the episode, close the Burn Book.

Joy: Close it. I love it. This is why that exists. Close it. Put it in the Burn Book so that we can move on. I feel better already.

Claire: Great. Alright guys, well thank you so much for hanging in there with us this week. You can find us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can go to our beautiful website joyandclaire.com. You can email us thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. We know they are all different. We can’t do anything about it.

Joy: We can’t.

Claire: Choices were made long ago. Don’t forget to support the sponsors who support our podcast. Go to helloned.com, use discount code JOY for 15% off your order. Check out the Mellow if you’re not ready to try out CBD or if you’re just not into it. We love it. And it’s also tasty. It’s like Meyer lemon. It’s like a little cup of calm. And we will talk to you guys next Thursday, just like we have every Thursday for the last nine years.

Joy: And ever and ever again. We are still hanging on, even after today’s episode.

Claire: We appreciate you.

Joy: We invite you onto our private jet.

Claire: There will be a Patreon link sent out later. Alright guys. Bye.

Joy: Bye.

131: Not Our Normal

June 16, 2022 by Joy Parrish Leave a Comment

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Lessons from going viral, Cadet’s graduation date, what to do if you’re overwhelmed with the state of the world, collective grief, lime washing, and diet culture reminders.

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email: thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 131: Not Our Normal

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

Transcription Completed: August 6, 2022

Audio Length: 53:32 minutes

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: How do you like our new theme song, by the way? It’s really, really uppity. So we have to lift up our intros a little more.

Claire: Which is hard sometimes. Like right now when it’s 8am on a Sunday morning, and my voice has not quite joined us yet. We’re recording this really early, like almost two weeks early. We always release on Thursdays. Normally we record that same week on Monday or even Tuesday. So our episodes are typically not recorded all that far in advance. But when life gets busy, we do batch them a little bit more. When you’re listening to this, these time frame statements will be out of date. But I am still a little bit in Covid recovery. I had Covid. I ended up testing positive for Covid for like 12 days. It was really pretty tough. I did not enjoy it. Zero out of ten. I have a little bit of asthma. For those of you who don’t know a fun fact about me is that I was born pretty prematurely. I was born at like 30 weeks or something and lived the first month of my life in an incubator.

Joy: Do did I. I think that’s pretty common for twins.

Claire: It’s pretty common for twins. Actually my mom had gone into labor at like 23 or 24 weeks. I’m going to tell this horror story. I think I’ve told it before. They sewed her cervix shut. And then finally at 30 weeks, my water broke. So I’m a twin. I have a fraternal twin brother. Two sacks, right. So my water broke. Well, this train is rolling, so they removed the stitches, but they missed one.

Joy: Nope. Nope, nope, nope. You should have put a warning on that one. You should have put a warning on this one.

Claire: So she was in labor with a stitch in her cervix, and she was like, “Something is wrong.” And they were like, “It’s supposed to hurt.” Because medical professionals gaslight women. She was like, “You will look again.”

Joy: Go Carol.

Claire: There was one in there. Anyway. So I was a preemie.

Joy: I think we have to sing from now on anything that’s horrific. Just sing it.

Claire: Just sing it. The reason I bring this up is that when you are a fetus, one of the last things to develop are your lungs. So preemies tend to go on to have sensitive respiratory systems for the rest of their lives, and that is very much me. I’m the type of person that any time I get sick, I will have a cough for weeks. Even if it’s not really like a respiratory illness. With Covid being very much a respiratory illness, I anticipate – I almost said participate. I anticipate.

Joy: You are participating.

Claire: I am participating against my will. I anticipate having a cough all summer, so fun for me. Anyway.

Joy: All that to say is the first time that we put the new intro song, it was on the episode that you had Covid. I texted Claire and I was like, “This is a real right turn.” It goes from a real uppity song, and then Claire is like, “Hi…”

Claire: My voice is just so far down.

Joy: Anyway, whatever, we like it. We got a rebrand. We’re all happy. Things are rocking.

Claire: It’s been a couple years.

Joy: I changed my mind about going viral is the new update.

Claire: Oh, you like it now?

Joy: No. I don’t like it. I don’t hate it.

Claire: Oh, okay. You’ve half changed your mind.

Joy: I’ve half changed my mind. I don’t hate it because what it did for me was completely made me ignore the comments section. I don’t read it anymore.

Claire: Not a one.

Joy: I don’t pay attention to it anymore. If you’re commenting, great. I love you. It forced me to completely ignore the comments section. Because there were so many comments rolling in that we couldn’t keep up. At first, we were browsing, reading, and then we’d see all the awful people coming in that were just saying the stupidest crap. So I changed my mind a couple weeks later. Actually, that was the silver lining of going viral is that you just don’t pay attention.

Claire: You get desensitized. I go onto our newer posts and specifically look at the comments. I feel like the people who actually know us are still commenting and I don’t want them to feel left out. And not even left out. That’s why we’re on social media is it’s a place where we can engage with you guys in real time, unlike anywhere else. If we did not really deeply value that, we would have left social media years ago. But I agree with you. So also, just your friendly reminder that if you ever really have a question for us that you are really hoping for an answer to, please send us an email. Don’t send it in a DM. DM’s get lost super quickly because we have a lot of notifications. People just send random reaction not our Instagram stories all the time. Those quick little comments, we like to read. And we will often times see your DM with a longer question and think, oh I need to get back to that later, and then it’s gone by the time we get back to it. Send us an email if you ever have a question that you are hoping for an actual answer to. Our email address is thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. Great. This feels like a lot of housekeeping.

Joy: Sometimes we have to do it.

Claire: It’s true.

Joy: Well, when this episode airs – it’s kind of weird to… that’s another reason we don’t like recording so far in advance, just because I like to talk about the week ahead. But when this episode airs, I will be in Arizona. I’m going to visit some family for the week. So I’ll be there all week. And hopefully by then, Cadet will have graduated. I wish I could give you an update now, but we’re recording this so far in advance, it’s hard to tell. It’s hard to tell. So just keep an eye on social media. Or you already have seen it actually. It’s in the past.

Claire: There’s already a reel about it.

Joy: This is old news already.

Claire: But the update this week, as of Sunday, June 5, is that Cadet pre-matched. Which last week we talked about what that meant. So she is on her way, potentially, assuming that everything goes well during team training. And it’s very exciting.

Joy: Yeah, it’s so cool. So they called us a couple of days ago. Again, this is old news by now. But it’s still great news. I’ll celebrate it forever. But they called us and said she has a pre-match, and that just basically means when you go to team training, you are pre-matched with a person. They watch you for a week to make the trainers watch very closely to make sure it’s the right match. They want to do a really good job of making sure that everything is set up for success. And if all goes well for the remainder of that week, then you graduate. So we’ll be flying out. It’s kind of funny because a cousin is getting married on June 11. We had always planned to go out for that wedding, and then I am going to stay for the week to see family and just hang out. I was so worried that Cadet’s graduation was going to be the same day as my cousin’s wedding. Honestly for a hot minute, and my cousin Lauren, if you’re listening, don’t worry, I would never miss Garrett’s wedding. She listens to this podcast. She’s like, “Joy!” For a minute, I was like, oh man, that would be a tossup.

Claire: Right.

Joy: Do I miss Garrett’s wedding? Or do I go to Cadet’s graduation? Thankfully I don’t have to make a choice. We are just going to be jet setting and flying to Arizona right after Cadet’s graduation. But I’m so excited to see her. But this podcast will be in the past, and I have hopefully already given her a big hug and sent her off to her new journey.

Claire: Cute, cute. Okay, the other thing we wanted to open this episode with is in the past couple of months, with just the world getting more and more horrible, we get a lot of questions from you guys around what do you do to manage the stress, the fear, the hopelessness. There’s just a lot that we have all been dealing with for a long time now. At varying degrees, but at the same time, I don’t know a single person who is like, “I’m actually pretty fine.” One of the things that, Joy, you always say is don’t let it get to the point where you just don’t care anymore. You want to avoid getting there. But I think the reality is that a lot of us have actually been at that point for a while. I want to hear from your therapy hat perspective – and friendly reminder, Joy is a licensed clinical therapist with a decade plus of experience.

Joy: Two decades almost. Which is actually really scary every time I say it. But it is what it is, guys. Age happens.

Claire: Age happens. It is a privilege to grow old. What do we do if we are past the point of being so overwhelmed by the deluge that we don’t care anymore? How do you come back from that?

Joy: Well, my first question – I want to say this as a little bit of context. Where are you at? I’m curious to hear, and I’m sure a lot of listeners are curious to hear – I’m not saying people who are parents have a – I think you absolutely have a different experience. Maybe I’m projecting. I feel like you would have a more intense experience around the school shootings because obviously you have school-age children.

Claire: Yeah, no, it’s horrible.

Joy: Not to do the comparative suffering thing, but when these things happen, I think of all the parents who are dropping their kids off at school. Where are you at as a parent? Talk to all the parents out there about what that does for you and how you’re currently dealing with that stress.

Claire: It’s really, really hard. Miles will be going into first grade. Evie is 3.5 but will be entering kindergarten in two years. I just keep thinking, this problem is not going anywhere. You want to think that you are safe, and you want to tell your kids that they’re safe. I think about the shooting at the Boulder King Soopers last year. I knew people who lost people in that shooting. The illusion of convincing yourself that it can’t happen in your community is gone for me already.

Joy: Gone completely, yeah.

Claire: I think that is actually such a helpful illusion. Even if you know in the back of your head that there is nothing different about your community. If you can convince yourself that it can’t happen, I honestly think that that is kind of helpful. Because at the end of the day, there is really so little that you individually can do. So just letting yourself believe that you’re safe… I wish that I could still do that. I don’t want to say, live your life willfully ignorant. But I think we all understand at some level. We all definitely understand that we’re not safe. But the less you have to consciously think about that, I think the better. This is my very non-professional opinion of how to process this. But yeah. I would say I really can’t think about it because there is nothing I can do.

Joy: Well, it’s a protective factor. Like when you’re at that level, you’re overwhelmed. I think that’s what happens when people – so kind of parlaying that into what your question was. I talk about this a lot during therapy. You get to a point where if you imagine the bucket filling to the top, you can’t take anymore. You are tapped out. So your body just shuts down. Or your mind shuts down. And you’re like, I can’t take anymore because it’s like your mind and your body are doing its job in a way to where you’re like, I can’t take any more so I’m just going to completely ignore what’s going on. On some level, you may have to do that for a while to take care of your family or to take care of whatever you need to take care of. So I think what I’m saying is, when you get so overwhelmed to a point where you don’t care or you just get complacent, I think that’s when you want to recognize that difference. I think there’s little bit of nuance in that in the sense of, yes, it’s a protective factor of you can’t keep facing the horrible news. But at the same time, where do you feel you can contribute? So turning that energy of overwhelm and not looking at the negativity per se but turning that into something where you feel like you can take some action. I’m not saying you have to go out and do something 24/7. But instead of looking at the news and absorbing the bad news or looking at the worry and absorbing the worry, where can you donate to places? Where can you make a contribution in your community? Those types of things that put more positive back into your system and build your back up, as opposed to make you feel tapped out. So that’s what I think is the important difference. You become so stressed and overwhelmed to the point where you’re like, I just can’t pay attention anymore. Well the sad reality is we have to pay attention in order to fix it. So it’s this weird catch 22. But at the same time, we also have to realize that we have responsibilities, and we have to take care of our families, and we have to take care of our jobs, and we have to do the things that we normally do. You add onto the normal responsibilities of your life, and that’s where people are like, “I don’t have the bandwidth for that.” It’s interesting too where people will also start to do this thing of, “Well I don’t have it as bad.” People will also start to feel guilty – that was amazing. River has entered the chat.

Claire: River just came into the room. I’m sitting on the floor. She just opened the door and started licking my face. Sorry, go on. I’m sure that was very chaotic on camera.

Joy: It was very chaotic. I was like, woah, there is a dog right here. But people start to do this thing to where you start to feel guilty for tapping out. So I don’t want to say that if you’re tapping out you are doing anything wrong. Your body is doing what it is supposed to do, which is protect you from completely shutting down. It’s almost like a trip wire where your body is just like, “We’re done.” You start to do this thing too where you’re like, “Well, I have so much to be thankful for.” A lot of people do this in therapy. They come to me and are like, “I feel bad for feeling bad because I have it better than most people.” I appreciate that. That means you are a caring, compassionate person.

Claire: But your nervous system doesn’t care about that.

Joy: Right. Your nervous system is like, we are in danger. There is danger in our environment. We are in fight, flight, or freeze. What the heck do we do? I think that’s something to notice as well. Thank you so much, human, for being a caring, sensitive person that you do recognize all of your blessings. But at the same time, you can also feel overwhelmed. And there’s probably a million different answers to this question, but what I personally do and what I tell people to do when we’re talking about this in therapy is to find some sense of control where you feel like you are contributing to a solution, whatever that looks like to you. There’s a lot of talk about the problem. I think what we need to be paying more attention to is the solution. And I’m not talking about reading the news of opinions or the comment sections or people posting. That actually drains you. That’s also what I’ve been telling people. Do not read news. Be informed, but don’t read opinion pieces. Don’t watch people arguing over what the solution is, what you feel might be a solution. What is the action step, a very tangible action step that feels like a part of a solution? And that’s going to be different for everybody. But that’s why it’s important to find what that answer is for yourself. Then you feel like you are doing something to move the needle a little bit. I think what we get wrapped up in is the problem feel so big and has been going on for so long that there’s that whole, “Well, if Moms Demand Action hasn’t been able to do anything,” – well, actually they have. If you read what they’ve accomplished so far, they’ve actually done a lot. Don’t get caught up in the whole, “I’m just one person” fallacy. We can’t do anything if I’m just one person. Trust that you have a lot of power. If we all take one small step every single day or every single week or every month even, whatever you have the energy for, we can move the needle. I think that’s what battles that overwhelm.

Claire: I think that’s been a big thing for me is feeling like it doesn’t matter what I do. All I can do – I deleted Instagram for a while. It feels so intense that even if I see a post about it that I’m not ready for, I just have to walk away. I can’t take in any amount of information at this point. Hopefully that will change. It’s not always this intense when there is a shooting. I don’t want to get too far into it because I know a lot of other people are in that boat too, and describing it might not be helpful. It’s hard even for me to talk about it. I think I quickly get to that point of almost the next level of no amount of action will change anything, so I’m not even going to look for ways to feel productive. And not only that but feeling like the way for me to get out of this is to channel into action almost just feels like something else, like another box I have to check off, like something else I have to do.

Joy: I hear what you’re saying. It’s not that you have to do it. It’s that most of the time when we are feeling overwhelmed and numb, it feels like we don’t have control or we’ve lost a sense of stability in our life. And we do. There’s all of these bad things that are happening, and we live in a society where people are making decisions about the very important laws around us and we don’t have that control. But I think using your voice in some way – even something as small as telling a friend something kind that day. It doesn’t even have to be a large cause because maybe that is feeling like too much right now. Even a small act of kindness to take you out of that spin can be really helpful. I’ve been trying to do more of telling people a compliment if I’m thinking it. Or writing someone a thank you note that was something very small. Or whatever it is – picking up a piece of trash when I’m walking outside. You feel like I’m doing something so small, but I feel like the thought and the energy towards doing something positive for this world right now is the only thing I can muster. Fine. That is okay. Not every single one of us needs to be Shannon Watts on the frontline of Moms Demand Action for gun safety. She is amazing. She’s been doing it for a very long time, and I think that’s another piece of we feel like we have to be doing it to that level. I’ll get caught up in this too. You’ll see on Instagram all the people that are doing very large acts of advocacy. Then you feel like you should be doing that level of advocacy. No. And maybe your solution isn’t advocacy. You see what I’m saying? It’s just getting to a point where you feel like it’s just not constantly taking, like where the energy of the world is not taking from you. You are at a point of filling yourself up in a way that’s contributing to society.

Claire: Yeah, I think that makes sense. If you’re somebody listening to this who is also to the point of feeling really helpless and overwhelmed by it and have had a hard time getting out of that space, the biggest thing I have learned over the last couple of weeks is that it really feels like grief.

Joy: It’s absolutely collective grief. And I think that started when the pandemic started.

Claire: Sure. And I think that – oh, here comes Evie Joan.

Evie: Momma, the sun is awake.

Claire: The sun is awake? Thank you for telling me. Okay, bye.

Joy: I mean, that’s a part of joy.

Claire: It’s a headline.

Joy: It just fills you up. That just touched my heart. The sun is awake. We all needed that. Case and point.

Claire: She just needs to come and tell everybody. I just want to also, at least for me, to say out loud, I can’t. I still can’t. I just can’t do anything. And deleting social media has been really helpful. I get teary just thinking about it. I’m still at a point where there are almost no option, it feels like, available to me other than to just step away. So I am trying to honor that as much as I can and not worry about finding things I have to do.

Joy: There’s a lot of levels to this. I think that if you’re at a point where you’re like, I can’t even take an action, then maybe it is just doing nothing for a while. Because this can also be so individual. Where my suggestions come from, you guys, is not that these are the right answers. It’s just a answer. It’s just a suggestion. Everyone is so different of how you deal with it. But I think the bottom line is that it’s normal to feel like you can’t handle any more because this should not be our normal. This really should not be our normal. This should not be happening in our world. We should not be losing children to gun violence. This is the sad part of reality is that it is happening. So how do you marry that in your mind of reality, especially if you have young children? So if you are at that point, like Claire just said too, of “I just can’t.” Then that is where you start. You shouldn’t feel guilty about that either. Maybe all you can do is focus on providing love and care for your family and getting a good night’s sleep and drinking enough water and putting your own family as your main focus. If that’s all you can do, then that’s all you can do. It’s a good point to bring up too, Claire, because I’m sure a lot of people also are at that point of, “I don’t even know where to start. I have zero energy to even think about it. I have to turn it off.” Sometimes people are like, “You can’t look away. This is a problem.” But we should never be forced into… it’s fine to take a break. That doesn’t mean that you don’t care. You care so much, and that is why you have to take a break – because you care so much. Because you’re a mother of two young beautiful children. Because you’re trying to think about their safety. It’s so interesting to watch this play out on social media too of people judging how social media influencers post or the stances they take. That all of the sudden gives value to how much you care about an issue or not, or how much you’re posting about it. It’s very interesting ho that plays out. But needless to say, it is okay, listeners out there, if you are taking a break, if you are stepping away. I think it’s fine to be informed then to the extent of saying, “I do want to help move this needle” because we do feel like we need to do something. But maybe the doing something in this phase of your life right now, after a freaking pandemic that we’re still in, is to take care of yourself and your family and that is where you start. Because like we kind of started this conversation at the beginning of what do you do if you feel like you’re already at that point where you feel like you are completely tapped out? Then you start there. And you just take care of yourself and your family.

Claire: Whew. Okay We are going to move into to some more just broad life updates, but let’s take a quick breather. A moment.

Joy: Let’s take a quick breather with our favorite sponsors, Ned. I couldn’t think of a better transition because they are just all about self-care and love and products that nourish you. I think y’all saw on our stories last week – maybe not. This is so outdated. But maybe you saw a story where I posted, I’m so amped about Cadet, but I need to calm down because I need to go to bed. That’s when I took Ned. It was the perfect solution for that evening because I was so amped up. We talk so much about the ways that we use Ned, but that was an example where I’m like, this is a perfect time to show when Ned really, really world.

Claire: The other thing I want to say too is sometimes we get emails from people that are asking, hey, this is the problem that I’m trying to help through CBD use. What would you suggest? Joy and I obviously can only speak to ourselves and our experiences. You guys all know that. Ned has an awesome service that you can go online and sign up for a consultation where they have herbalists and experts on their staff who will meet with you for free and talk through what it is that you’re trying to accomplish and recommend the best regiment of products for you. It’s basically a sales consultation. So to be completely honest, they’re trying to get you to buy their products. It’s not an unbiased moment. But if you are really curious about CBD and exactly the best way for you to be using it for something specific, highly recommend signing up for that. I have a ton of friends who have done that, and it’s really, really helpful. The suggestions that they make are really, really effective. Definitely check that out because it’s a cool service that they provide.

Joy: Yeah. And just a reminder that you are supporting the podcast when you support our sponsor, Ned. They have full transparency on their website. They share their third-party lab reports, who farms their products, their extraction process. All on their website. And remember they have a full money back guarantee if you’re not satisfied. Become the best version of yourself. Get 15% off Ned products with code JOY. Go to helloned.com/JOY or enter code JOY at checkout. That’s helloned.com/JOY to get 15% off. Thank you, Ned, for sponsoring the show and giving our listeners a natural remedy for some of life’s most common health issues.

Claire: Okay. Well in other life updates, I’m still living in boxes. A fun project that we’ve been working on that I wanted to share is we’re doing lime wash paint on our living room. Which is something that I asked a question about on my Instagram, and I think people are kind of confused about what it is. You can paint brick with lime wash. That’s the application that most people know. But you also can do your walls. It ends up with this really awesome, very, very matte, very lightly textured finish that almost looks like plaster. But it’s not as gloppy as plaster. The primer was bizarre because you basically are creating a super porous surface on your wall. Let me back up. It’s basically a type of paint that’s made out of actual lime from limestone.

Joy: I’m googling images right now because I’m not familiar with it. Where did you learn about lime wash?

Claire: Instagram.

Joy: Of course you did.

Claire: I spend a lot of time on the ‘Gram.

Joy: I really want to paint my fireplace BTW.

Claire: Oh, we’re going to paint our fireplace. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Joy: Okay. With lime wash?

Claire: Probably not with lime wash. We’re probably just going to use paint. The thing that people like about the lime wash for brick is that it still leaves the natural brick look, but it just makes it look a little powdery for lack of a better word.

Joy: Yeah, because paint makes it look a little too painted.

Claire: So the lime wash is not a stain. It is actually a type of paint. But because it’s so porous on brick, it gets absorbed into the brick. It makes it just look like an old whitewashed look.

Joy: Okay, okay.

Claire: The point of the story – I won’t get into exactly the details of every single thing, in case you’re like, “I don’t want to listen to you talk about lime wash paint for 20 minutes.”

Joy: We’re watching paint dry on our podcast.

Claire: Exactly. But it’s really been fun and interesting. I’m really excited for how it’s going to make the room – we’re doing it in the front room of our house, which is this big, open room that connects to the dining room. It just creates this really nice little texture and makes the room feel really cozy. And then we’re deciding on the cabinet paint colors we want to use. Our house that we moved into was built in 1970. It’s a floor plan that – I think I already talked about this. It’s literally the exact same floor plan that Brandon grew up in. It’s also extremely similar to the house that I grew up in. The main floor is almost exactly the same, and the upstairs is just a different configuration. So this was a very popular plan, the house plan, in the 70’s. Where you walk in the front door and you’re staring at a coat closet. To the right is a sitting room that backs up to a dining room that flows into the kitchen. Then as you walk through the kitchen, you’re looking at the living room and you can turn up the hallway to go back to the front door. And then if you’re standing at the front door and you look to the left, you go up the stairs into the upstairs.

Joy: Okay.

Claire: Really common in the 70’s, and the last time it was updated was in like 1990. So we are not doing a renovation per se because that’s expensive.

Joy: Just a little pricey. Just bought a house.

Claire: And I currently still own two houses because, fun fact, the housing market has slammed on the breaks the last month and our house has not sold yet. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Joy: But you just put it up.

Claire: I mean, yes, but it should have sold. We don’t have any offers yet. It’s been up for a couple days. That has not been the norm for the past few years.

Joy: Sure.

Claire: Hopefully by the time you listen to this… I don’t have any wood around me that’s real. I have some particle board wood.

Joy: Touch wood, yeah.

Claire: Hopefully our house will be under contract. It’s a cute, cute house. But for a variety of reasons, including the fact that we don’t know for sure how long it’s going to take our other house to sell, we are not doing any big renovations. We’re painting everything, and that’s just a really fun process to go through. We’ve been using these paint stickers. This is not an ad. This company called Samplize, and they will send you this 8.5 by 11 – those aren’t the real dimensions, but it’s about that big – piece of vinyl sticker that is the paint color that you want. So you can put the sticker on your wall, and you can move it around your house to see how it looks in different lights.

Joy: That’s brilliant.

Claire: Instead of having to paint a sample and paint back over it and wait for it to dry. They are like $5 or $6 a piece. I have been going ham on these samples. Maybe if I was going less ham on the paint samples, I would have enough money to renovate our kitchen. But highly recommend if you are painting. These are so fun. So we’re kind of in that mode right now of choosing paint colors. We’re still really not unpacked. Because part of it too is we don’t want to unpack everything, only to then have to paint and move everything again. We’re still sort of in this annoying in between of having a lot of stuff in boxes, but that’s just going to be my whole summer I think with the way that the timing played out and that we couldn’t get it done – we missed our window to get it done the week before we moved. So now instead, we have to pay the price. And by get it done, I mean painting and those sorts of thing. So that’s pretty much my 24/7 project right now is trying to get this house into a livable condition so it doesn’t feel like we just moved in. Even though we did just move in. I just hate that feeling. It’s very disorganizing. I don’t know if you guys saw my reel about this, but my brain has really not recovered from Covid.

Joy: Oh man.

Claire: And I have been forgetting things. It is very unlike me to forget things. I am not the type of person who forgets appointments or anything like that. Two days ago, I forgot to take River to doggy day care. Just forgot. It wasn’t like I’m so late or I forgot to reschedule. Halfway through the day, I was just like, oh my God, I was supposed to take River to doggy day care today. Just forgot. And then Joy and I did a little content shoot where we have this really cute little photo studio that’s in Longmont called Sugar Hill Studios that we rent out just for an hour. We just take our iPhones. If you are in the Denver area and you are someone who is supposed to create content for any reason and you hate it, I would recommend trying this place out. This place is so cute. It’s really affordable on an hourly basis. I love it. And it’s run by the cutest photographer. Her name is Sarah Hill. And also, not an ad, but if you’re ever looking for family photos in the Denver area, highly recommend her.

Joy: I can’t stop looking at lime wash, by the way. [laughing]

Claire: Oh my gosh, right. It’s so soothing.

Joy: Now I want to paint my fireplace, and I’m like, what do I paint it? I’m going to stop. But it’s very soothing to look at.

Claire: It is really soothing to look at. It’s a nice texture. But I forgot about the photo shoot until I got the reminder on my phone 30 minutes before, and I was standing in line to order coffee by the grocery store. It’s a whole thing.

Joy: Yeah. Claire texted me. You’re like, “I’m going to be a few minutes late.” I was like, “Okay.” I’m pulling up, and you’re like, “I forgot.”

Claire: Thank God this place is five minutes from my house. I probably just wouldn’t have made it.

Joy: Right.

Claire: It would have been Joy only. So that’s been super fun. What are you guys doing for the summer coming up?

Joy: A lot of puppy watching. I’m going to Arizona. I’ll be in Arizona when this airs. We don’t really have trips planned yet because we have a lot of dog sitting situations coming up where we are puppy sitting for a lot of the CCI dogs. But as far as a vacation, we really want to go back to Hawaii. But I don’t know, it’s at that point still where you just don’t know what’s going on with Covid. I don’t want to plan too many things. It’s hard to tell. As of right now, we’re mostly trying to visit family because we haven’t been able to do that in the past few years. So we’ll probably go see Scott’s parents, do more trips to my parents’ house, and obviously I’ll be hanging out a lot in Arizona and having a good time seeing all those people.

Claire: So as we march directly into summer, we wanted to talk a little bit about diet, exercise stuff that really flares up this time of year. Just remind you all that your winter body and your summer body are the same. Your year-round body does not need to change in any way, shape, or form for the summer, just because it’s summer. If this is a season where you find it’s easier to fit in more activity, that you are already naturally drawn toward eating more fresh foods, let that just be what it is. Let that just be a seasonal rhythm of your body. I think it’s natural in the summer. It’s lighter way longer. Fresh foods are more readily available. They are more delicious because they are more fresh. You don’t have to assign any value or weirdness to that. It can just be what it is, and you can just not have to overthink it. If you’re finding yourself naturally wanting to move more, do it and you don’t have to start a whole program. You don’t have to sign up for a marathon. You don’t have to buy a Groupon, Joy, for a marathon.

Joy: I know. There was a half marathon this weekend that Scott was like, “Maybe we should just run this half marathon. We just ran ten miles.” I was like, maybe we should. We didn’t.

Claire: No. No.

Joy: But there’s beer at the end, and it’s put on by this beer company.

Claire: You don’t even drink beer.

Joy: We don’t even drink beer right now. Non-alcoholic beer is really my jam these days.

Claire: And guess what? It’s available to buy at the store without running a race.

Joy: Yeah, without running. So funny.

Claire: Zero running required. Probably cheaper than the race entry. People are like, “It’s free beer.” I’m like, it’s definitely not free beer. You just spent $100 to run the race. Anyway, I just wanted to say that because I know that this is the time of year – and it’s been that way now for a couple months already. But now that it really is summer break for kids. I think we’ve come a really long way in the last several years of not getting swept up in that stuff. But we used to not only get swept up in it but lead the sweep. Like, “Okay guys, time for a challenge.” It doesn’t have to be that way. You don’t have to suddenly decide you want your body to be different. It can be the same. It can be exactly the way it’s always been. A lot of people gained weight in Covid, and that’s great.

Joy: We were just soothing ourselves through a really hard time.

Claire: Your body is creating protective instincts. And again, it doesn’t mean anything about you. It could mean something about your health. If you’re worried about it, go ask your doctor about it. That’s valid. We’re not saying to just sweep unexplained, rapid weight gain under the rug. That could be a red flag.

Joy: Right. There’s so many different ways it could go. I think what we’re trying to say is a blanket whole statement of, watch out, diet culture is going to rear its ugly head if it hasn’t already. I am loving seeing a lot of ads from retailers with every shape and size in bathing suits. We’ve come a long way. It used to be I’d be flipping through J.Crew magazine, eating my cereal before I went to college class – and yes, this is an actual catalog.

Claire: It’s a real piece of paper.

Joy: And actual paper. And I’d be like, aw man, I don’t look like those girls with their very small stomachs. But it’s so funny how now we have an inclusion, an inclusivity… what’s the right word? Inclusive body types.

Claire: Yeah. A variety of representative body types. Representation.

Joy: Representation. And I love that. I think that’s been really good to see. But be careful of like, you need to take this supplement, you need to go on this diet. Claire and I are not immune from this. I think we each deal with it in different ways of course. But I have noticed, speaking of bodies and the news and media and how that affects us. Recently there’s been so much press around the bodies of the Kardashians. I don’t know if you’ve seen any of the articles, but any time I scroll on my little Apple News feed, it is weather Khloe’s body –

Claire: I think you must be in the Kardashian algorithm or whatever.

Joy: Yeah. Our phones listen to us. I’m screwing myself right now. My phone is listening. Khloe’s body is too this or too that. Or Kim’s body and her diet that she did to fit into that dress is too this and too that. And honestly, it just is distracting us and making us think what is wrong with our bodies or how we look like that. Let me just remind you, that’s not reality. I hate to project this, but I know that I’ve seen ads for them doing that cooling scoped whatever it is. Have you heard of this? There’s a machine that you can put on your body that literally will –

Claire: Freezes your fat cells or something.

Joy: That or it works out a part of your body. Kind of like one of those things that used to shake your waist. You know, like those belts from the 50’s and 60’s? It’s kind of like that where it works out a body part the equivalent to an hour workout in five minutes, so it really tones your muscles. My guess is that they’re doing that, guys. And it’s okay, it’s fine. But –

Claire: Here’s a reminder for everyone. If it seems too good to be true, it is.

Joy: It is. It is.

Claire: When it comes to diet and fitness, if it seems to be too good to be true, it is.

Joy: It’s an MLM. Run away.

Claire: This is how cults start. I have been seeing a lot more posts. I think Laura Ligos is really good about this. JK is really good about this. People who are like, hey, if you are somebody that has health and fitness goals. Again, you don’t have to have health and fitness goals. Blanket statement. I used to think that an absence of health and fitness goals meant that I was letting myself go or I didn’t care about myself or it wasn’t self-care. A lot of times, self-care means letting yourself not have those goals for a season of life because you’ve been drilling away at them for decades and you need a freaking break. But if you are someone who has health and fitness goals, it is the little consistent habits, unsexy habits – going for walks, taking the stairs, making sure you’re drinking enough water, making sure you’re getting enough freaking sleep. The things that are going to take a really long time to move the needle are still the things that are most effective. So if it sounds too good to be true, it is. If there is a challenge that promises anything in 30 days or 6 weeks or even 90 days or 75 days or whatever it is, it’s probably too good to be true. You can’t change your life and your body in a couple of months. It takes years to get to that point in a sustainable way. We all know this. We all know this. And yet we let logic fly out the window when we get an email saying, “90-day body shred,” and you’re like, oh 90 days.

Joy: They must have cracked the code.

Claire: No, they have not. What I was just talking about around feeling like you have to have a health or fitness goal. We got a great email recently, and I’m going to paraphrase it because I’m not going to pull it up right this second, but we got a great email from somebody who recently had a baby and used to be really, really active and worked out a ton, who basically said through some of the comments we’ve made on the podcast and through some of her own realizations has been embracing the fact that what you are doing or not doing in a certain season of your life is not who you are. We are so programmed to make our activities about who we are. For an example that I brought up a few weeks ago, I haven’t been baking that much lately. That doesn’t mean I don’t still love baking. That doesn’t mean that it’s not still something that is important to me from a standpoint of creativity, of sharing it with my family, of sharing it with my community. There’s so many things I still love about it. I just haven’t had much time to do it lately. Same thing for CrossFit. I think I’ll always love CrossFit. I think I’ll always love being in the gym in that environment of people, in that group, lifting weights, the high-intensity workouts, the loud music. I love the environment. There’s not a CrossFit gym that I like that’s in a convenient enough place for me that I can do that right now. It’s not that I’ve moved away from CrossFit. No, it just doesn’t fit in my life right now. Who knows if that might change. Maybe I’ll start going to a gym in Denver one day. Whatever the case may be. I think the opposite is true. We talked about this with JT a little bit on our more recent episode with him around you can still do things and it doesn’t – just because I’ve been waking up every morning to go work out doesn’t mean that I’m suddenly a morning person. Or just because I want to try going on a couple more trail runs doesn’t mean, oh, now I’m a runner. We need to move away from making the blanket statements around ourselves based on just these activities that we’re doing. I think that feeds so much into diet culture around making you feel like if this is not one of your top priorities your whole life, then that means you are not a healthy person. And that is just BS. We all know it is, right?

Joy: I feel like this has always been around, but when did we value health and fitness as this elitist, “we’re better than other people” type of mentality that used to be a thing. It used to be like that. I think that I was guilty of that for a while early in my fitness career. And when I did all the trainings to become a fitness instructor in college. I was in a different mindset. Or the way that I would talk to my friends and coworkers about how I was eating. And everyone always wanted to know what I was eating, and I would always tell them what I was eating. It was always like at thing, I remember, of what does Joy eat or not eat. Or how much I worked out and how that was this badge of honor. And now you look at it and you’re like, that was just a really unhappy part of me that people were idolizing or at least just commenting on. I think it’s more along the lines of making sure, because it’s such a sensitive thing and I don’t think it’s ever going to go away, to be aware of where our Achilles heels are in this fitness space, in the fitness/wellness/diet space, to follow people like Laura Ligos, to follow people like JK who are just doing it for the purpose of, if this feels good for you, do it. If this feels right for you, do it. It’s okay to want to eat well because if we just want to look at it objectively, I feel physically better when I eat better.

Claire: Your body thrives on nutrients and sufficient calories.

Joy: It just does. It just does. And I’m also not the person who is like, “I wish I could thrive off of cookies.” That doesn’t sound good to me either. I know that people will be annoyed by that. But I am at a point in my life where I am not restricting, so I don’t have to torture myself to eat healthy either. I just objectively feel better eating “healthier foods.” Foods that make me feel good, however you want to label it. I’ll even see influencers. I’ve unfollowed so many people over the years who every single post is about optimizing every nutrient that goes into your body, or you have to eat this every day for this mineral. It’s like, I just feel like having a liquid IV because it tastes good. Maybe it throws some extra water my way. But I don’t need to make sure I’m eating beef liver for this part of my whatever. It can go a little too far, I think.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: That’s all I’m saying is we don’t have to be perfect with it. Find what works for you. Just be careful.

Claire: Also, we try to be really transparent around the stuff that we’re doing and the fact that it can be fun to try stuff out. It’s all about allowing yourself to try stuff and not make it about anything bigger. Not make it a lifestyle statement. Not make it a statement about your personality. Right now in my health and fitness journey, right now I’m not doing anything. I love June because I love berries. Why are blackberries so expensive, but I will take out a third mortgage for blackberries.

Joy: Which reminds me, I think the farmer’s market is going on this morning. I need to run down there and get some flowers.

Claire: Yeah, you should. We went yesterday to the Longmont one. The Longmont farmer’s market is so cute, you guys. They had this little Celtic band playing yesterday. I just loved it. Yeah, so cute. All these little toddlers dancing around. I loved it. And then they had these popsicles, which my kids loved. Which are almost $4 per popsicle. This is just highway robbery, but I buy them. I am basically paying $8 to be able to stay at the farmer’s market for longer now that my kids have popsicles. But I am excited about summer and about food because I love summer produce. I love corn. I love peaches. I love berries. I love asparagus. I love fresh lettuce. Just all the things. I love tomatoes. Oh, I love tomatoes so much. Those are the main crops that we really get that are grown in Colorado. We don’t get citrus or avocado, stuff like that. You can’t grow that in Colorado because the growing season is too short.

Joy: Take me to California.

Claire: I know.

Joy: They have the best farmer’s markets.

Claire: And when it comes to fitness, I haven’t been to the gym really since my surfing trip because of the move and the whole Covid situation. But I’m still signed up for HungryFitness. I still really like that programming. I like that it’s flexible. I like the ethos around her community. I don’t follow them all on Instagram because I do feel like their accounts are pretty health and fitness culture.

Joy: It’s a little before and aftery if I can be honest.

Claire: A little before and aftery, if I can be honest. I don’t love that.

Joy: Not so much a fan of that.

Claire: Not my vibe. But I do really like the programming, for what it’s worth. So you know, all that to say, I’m not changing anything this summer.

Joy: Yeah. A couple weeks ago, whenever it was, I posted a reel of making a smoothie because I do make this smoothie every morning. It’s so basic, and I’ve said it a billion times that I don’t follow recipes. I’m like, I can throw this together. I do it because I do objectively know that I don’t go for protein in my diet. Basic facts, you kind of, sort of, should focus on a more balanced – moving towards the middle, not being perfect.

Claire: Yeah, man cannot live on carbs alone.

Joy: No, sadly. And I’m such a carb person that I’ll just move towards the carbs. I know that about myself. I’ve just been ready more Dr. Stacy Sims of women as you age and you need more protein. I’m also on the Wild AI app. If you don’t have it, it’s amazing. It has a lot of really good tips for fueling for women. Science-backed. It’s run by doctors, so I feel like that is a really good app that’s how to fuel for female performance. So I was making protein smoothie. That feels really good to me. I just need to go for more protein in my diet. But not from a diet verb perspective. And then I’m just doing my Peloton. I’m working outside. I’m doing some Peloton workouts. I do some little bootcamp workouts, trying to get some more weightlifting in there because that just feels really good to me. And then walking my dogs. That’s something I have to do to train Joe, so that’s a daily activity. I just love being outside. But I will say, I’m screwing myself. I will say this lastly, which is really funny. I feel like social media is playing a cruel trick on us because I see a Tracy Anderson ad every single day on my social media feed. She is in a mesh fishnet looking bikini. I don’t understand why I am getting this ad. Why are you catering to me in a mesh bikini. I don’t want to look like that. If you want to wear that, great. No judgement. But why is this coming to me? And why is this the ad? Most of her customers, my guess, already look like her. It’s such a weird – now I’m going to get Tracy Anderson –

Claire: The fact that ten years later we’re still complaining about Tracy Anderson on this podcast, the longevity of those ads. It’s just amazing. It’s just amazing.

Joy: Yeah. Well on that note –

Claire: As you guys know, nothing sends me into a rage spiral faster than Tracy Anderson who thinks that women shouldn’t lift more than three pounds because they don’t want to get bulky and other things that are bad.

Joy: Have you seen that ad? I texted you a photo.

Claire: Oh yeah, you texted me. And I’ve seen it. The neon green fishnet underwear is just like I don’t need to see another human wearing that. I just don’t need to see that in my feed.

Joy: I’m scrolling through Facebook right now, and I’m just waiting for – oh, another Canine Companions litter was born.

Claire: Oh, dogs. And we’re back. Alright, guys. I think that’s it for us this week. Thank you for joining us. Don’t forget to check out our sponsor, Ned, helloned.com/JOY or use discount code JOY for 15% off your order. Check them out. And don’t forget, they have a risk-free trial. You can try anything you want for 30 days on their website that you order. Their 30-day risk-free trial is available to all first-time Ned customers. So if you’re not completely satisfied with how their CBD products are impacting you or working in your toolbox, you can return it and you’ll get a refund. It’s fantastic. They’re wonderful. We really love this brand. We love working with them. We love their products. So check them out and thank you for supporting the brands that support our podcast. We will talk to you guys next week. Thank you for being here.

Joy: Bye, guys.

Claire: Bye.

130: Moving Days and Graduations

June 9, 2022 by Joy Parrish Leave a Comment

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Claire’s recovery from COVID, moving day pains, Cadet’s upcoming graduation, how to look for red flags in a toxic work culture, and listener Q&A!

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www.joyandclaire.com

Girls Gone Wod

email: thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 130: Moving Days and Graduations

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

Transcription Completed: August 6, 2022

Audio Length: 51:33 minutes

Notes: Check the name at 22 minutes, 26 seconds.

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire. I’m here. I don’t have Covid anymore.

Joy: Oh man. And pregnancy is still ten months, right?

Claire: I’m not pregnant. Not pregnant. Not pregnant. Not pregnant.

Joy: That conversation and fight is still going on in the comments.

Claire: Still getting so mad at each other.

Joy: So mad at each other. The fighting that is going on in the comments.

Claire: And here’s the thing. Part of me is like, should I go through here and delete these trolls? No. At this point, we are at over 20 million views of that stupid reel. Who knows how many thousands of comments. I have not read a comment in weeks at this point. Every once in a while, I’ll look out of the corner of my eye and be like, “Look away! Look away!”

Joy: Yeah. “Pregnancy is ten months?????”

Claire: Pregnancy time is outside of time and space. It is however long you need it to be.

Joy: Especially with pregnancy women, you guys. What? Are you questioning a pregnant woman?

Claire: Infinite pregnant years. Like we were saying – I think I said this a couple weeks ago. By the time you’re in your third trimester, you can’t remember ever not being pregnant. So it doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter. Anyway, moving on.

Joy: Yes, moving on. You got Covid. You’re better now.

Claire: I got Covid.

Joy: You had a real rough week.

Claire: Zero out of ten.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: My vacation afterglow did not last. So when we last left our hero – being me – I was recording in my basement. I had Covid, but I didn’t know it yet, and the movers were coming any minute. So since then, I tested positive for Covid. Like 30 minutes after we finished recording that podcast episode, I drove to Walgreens, put on an N-95, bought myself a Covid test, took the test in the parking lot, and it was immediately positive. So I was like, what the hell do I do? The movers are at my house.

Joy: Right. You don’t want to put them at risk, so what do you do?

Claire: And I had been with Brandon for the last couple of days, and my kids are at my mom’s house. They’ve been there for two days because we’ve been packing. So what we ended up doing is we double masked with the movers there. We told them. We were like, hey, this is what the situation is. We’ll try to stay out of your way. We will both put masks on. We have masks if you want to wear them. And they were like, “No, we’re good.” They were young guys, so whatever. They can make their choices. They’re like, “We’re 23. This shit doesn’t matter.”

Joy: Things like this don’t happen to me.

Claire: Right. When you’re a 23-year-old guy, congratulations, you’re immune to everything.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Oh. This is a fun fact. One of our movers was Brandon’s dad’s personal trainer in Wisconsin.

Joy: What?

Claire: What are the odds of that? So first of all, you guys need to know that Brandon and his dad are like body doubles.

Joy: They really are.

Claire: Brandon’s dad is like the 1980’s mustache version of Brandon. But they are body doubles. If you walked up to them from behind, you wouldn’t know which one was which.

Joy: The 1980’s mustache version of Brandon. [laughing] That’s so accurate. He has a great mustache.

Claire: He does. If you know Brandon’s dad and you meet Brandon, it’s like, “Wait a minute, you kind of look like this guy I know.” And also in our house we have a bunch of Wisconsin stuff. We have a bunch of New Glarus beer. Which if you’re from Wisconsin, you know how specific that is. New Glarus Brewing is this very locally well-known –

Joy: Or you’re Scott who is a total beer nerd.

Claire: New Glarus has a reputation, and you can only get it in Wisconsin. Every time Brandon’s family comes out, if they ever drive out, they bring us cases of New Glarus. Specifically, Spotted Cow is the more famous one, but we really like the Moon Man, which is the pale. It’s very delicious. So we have a couple boxes of that in the basement that they noticed. We have some Madison stuff around. And he was like, “Hey, how do you guys pronounce your last name again?” I was like, it’s Koch. He was talking to Brandon. He was like, “Are you from Wisconsin?” He’s like, “Oh yeah, I’m from outside a little town outside of Madison.” Over the course of the conversation, a couple of minutes go by and he’s like, “Do you know Jim Koch?” Brandon was like, “Uh, my dad is Jim Koch.”

Joy: I know him.

Claire: I know him. He raised me. Come to find that the foreman of our moving crew had been Brandon’s dad’s personal trainer at Middleton Lifetime Fitness or Anytime Fitness.

Joy: Unbelievable.

Claire: The smallest world moment ever. And was his trainer for a long time. To the point where this guy’s wife knew Brandon’s dad. I mean, this guy couldn’t have been more than 26 or 27. Anyway. It was just a very small world moment. I have Covid. Brandon is still feeling fine. He is still testing negative at this point. I ended up actually getting Covid pretty… I would say I had moderate Covid. I was not the person who had a sniffle, never would have known I was sick if I hadn’t tested. I felt like crap. I was so tired. I was so worn out. Sounded terrible. Was coughing a ton. I had a migraine. I was so worn out. Super sore throat. And I couldn’t do anything about it. My bed was in a truck. I couldn’t have sat down. My chairs were in a truck.

Joy: You can’t even be home comfortable because you don’t have a home right now.

Claire: Exactly. So I just took a crap ton of Tylenol and tried to push through it.

Joy: What did you take a shot of that morning?

Claire: Oh, the wellness shots? One of those apple cider vinegar cayenne shots. I was like, “It feels like I just drank the sun.”

Joy: You’re like, “I’m fine. I feel like I just drank the sun. I can go now.” That’s just a John Hay. Now we’re talking Jim Koch, John Hay.

Claire: Too many dads in this episode.

Joy: That’s a very John Hay thing to do.

Claire: It is. It is a very John Hay thing to do. But anyway, the moral of the story is, I got Covid. I tested positive for 12 days. I think the reason I tested positive for so long was because the first two days I took a bunch of Tylenol and just powered through it. Other people are like, “You can’t power through it. That’s how you get long Covid.” I don’t think I had true long Covid. I was worried about that for a couple of days where I was like, I am not getting better at all and it’s day 10. Yesterday was day 12. Today is day 13. I feel like day 12 I finally started to turn the corner. But that’s a long ass time to feel sick.

Joy: That’s a long time.

Claire: And we’re talking bone tired. By the time I get to the middle of the day, my brain fog is so bad I feel like I’m drunk. Today has been better. But on Tuesday, I was trying to work – because Monday was Memorial Day. Tuesday I was trying to work, and I got on a call. It was like I was watching myself from an out-of-body experience. I know I’m not making any sense.

Joy: Yeah, just like total brain fog.

Claire: Zero out of ten, don’t recommend. The kids did end up getting it, but they were sick for like a day. Brandon did end up testing positive. He probably felt sick for two or three days. My mom ended up testing positive. She’s on day four or five, but she was abs to get the antiviral, and that really helped. Somehow my grandpa has not tested positive yet. He’s the person who through all of this we’ve been the most worried about. Because he’s 95, you guys.

Joy: Oh yeah, he can’t get it.

Claire: Somehow, he has not gotten it. My mom has been isolating from him in their house. He has his own almost sort of apartment in the basement. And then the Sunday of moving weekend was my dad’s birthday, so we were supposed to go over there. Obviously, we didn’t do that, thankfully. So all things considered, and after everything we’ve been through, I got it at work. Just so annoying. So here I am saying –

Joy: Yeah, it wasn’t from the Mexico trip. It wasn’t from traveling.

Claire: No, it wasn’t from the Mexico trip. I know it was from work because I practically know who it was. A ton of people got it from this work meeting that I had been at.

Joy: Oh, did they know that they had it? Now I’m bitter.

Claire: No. They supposedly did not. I’m not positive, but I just have to –

Joy: I need to blame somebody.

Claire: I know. So after two years and change, finally happened. It was terrible. Zero out of ten.

Joy: Oh my gosh. Now I feel like I’m the last man standing.

Claire: You really are.

Joy: Now I just jinxed myself.

Claire: Yeah, you did.

Joy: I didn’t say it out loud though. But I still jinxed myself.

Claire: Hopefully not, because it’s not fun. So the thing about it that’s kind of the worst – obviously, it’s crappy. But we’re living in boxes, and I hate living in boxes so much. But I have had no energy. So I would have to unpack a box and then sit down for like an hour.

Joy: Oh yeah. Unpacking is the worst. Oh, it’s the worst.

Claire: It’s the worst.

Joy: I have a memory of when we moved into this house. Scott and I were a month away from getting married. I hate unpacking so much, and boxes were everywhere. Scott was like, “We need to unpack.” He is Mr. Do Everything Right Away. Put it all away right away. That’s just something that I tend to procrastinate. It’s kind of like what’s the plan for this came up. Because I would dilly dally and do things on my own timeline and be like, “What’s the plan for this?” And he got really mad that I wasn’t unpacking my clothes, and we got in the hugest fight. I remember just being like, “If this is what marriage is like, I don’t want any part of it.” Joke is on me because that’s what it’s like,

Claire: That is exactly what it’s like.

Joy: Still got married.

Claire: Here you are. We have been living out of boxes. We did the kitchen. That’s the most important part. We unpacked the kids’ room because they need a place to be.

Joy: They need their beds and their rooms. They need the routine.

Claire: They need the routine. Our room is still – we have some furniture. We ended up having to buy a bunch of furniture for our bedroom because our previous room was so tiny that we had one dresser that we shared and that was it. We didn’t have nightstands. So we bought some stuff and assembled that. But all of our clothes and a lot of our closet stuff is still in boxes. Most of our living room is still in boxes. Our basement is still in boxes. Our entire garage is front to back, side to side full of boxes. It just is the worst feeling in the world

Joy: Don’t you wish you could hire – well, I’m sure you could hire somebody.

Claire: You could. I looked into it. It’s like ten grand.

Joy: Oh. Oh, but I’d probably pay that if I had it.

Claire: Oh, one million percent. One million percent. At this point, I would pay that if I had that. If somebody wants to send me ten grand to hire an unpacker, my Venmo is… @clairehaykoch. Please Venmo me. I need help.

Joy: Oh my gosh. Wouldn’t that be funny if somebody did Venmo you. And while we’re at it, Venmo me so I can go meet Laird Hamilton and go on that trip.

Claire: If I had ten grand, what I actually would do is go on three more surf trips and just let Brandon unpack while I’m gone. Sorry Brandon, I love you.

Joy: Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. So you’re living in boxes. How is the new house? How is the old house?

Claire: The new house is great. So we’re recording a full week in advance on this episode, which is kind of a lot for us.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Right now, as of this date, is June 2. Our old house just went on the market today. The fact that we qualified for two houses still just blows my mind. Guys, mortgages are not real. When you see people who live in like 5-million-dollar houses, none of it’s real. They were like, “Yeah, sure, you can have a second house.” I was like, I don’t even buy the organic strawberries because they are $4.99, and you’re telling me I can just go buy another house.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Whose information are you looking at?

Joy: Money is fake. It’s all a conspiracy. QAnon everybody.

Claire: Words aren’t real. JK, JK.

Joy: JK.

Claire: JK. Except for real about the mortgages. So we’re selling our old house. We thought about keeping it because the lender said that we could. I was like, no, we can’t, we need that money. Our old house is so cute though. Now that it’s all clean and photographed, I’m like, oh, I want to live here.

Joy: I want to move back.

Claire: We were laying bed the other night and I was so overwhelmed, and I was like, “Can we just move back to our old house?” Brandon was like, “I mean, we could. Do you really want to?” I was like, “No, I guess not. But I like to think it’s a good option.” By the time you hear this, hopefully it will be under contract. Hopefully we will not be living in quite so many boxes. That’s my update.

Joy: Very good. Well because we’re recording a week in advance, it’s kind of annoying because the timeline for this is going to be real tight. So before this episode comes out, it will be very old news. Sorry if you can hear Joe and JT. Can you hear them? This is their prime play time after dinner, so they make a lot of noise out there. But Cadet is currently in team training. So yesterday, June 1, she entered into team training, which means she’s with a graduate class of seven other dogs. I think it’s eight total. They are starting training, which means all the applicants for hearing dogs that were chosen to go to this training are going through a week and a half of training with these dogs. Today, June 2, they did what’s called “pre-match” where the trainers match the applicants up with their dog, their prospective match. It’s a really special time. The whole staff comes out to the training room to see the pre-matches happen. So it’s really special. All the graduates sit in a circle –

Claire: And it’s very hush hush. I remember when you were in team training, you could not tell us who your dog was.

Joy: No, it’s super hush hush. You can’t say a word. I think I told Scott. Because I was like, “This is our dog.” I think hush hush for a lot of reasons, but mainly because within that week and a half, two weeks, a lot could change. Meaning the dog could have a reaction to this person. The person could not connect with the dog. It’s rare, but it happens. So they don’t want this person to all of the sudden be sharing on social media and then two days later something goes awry and they have to switch dogs. That’s usually why they have to keep it hush hush. They want to be able to observe the prospective graduate with the dog to make sure that it’s a good match. They are so good at matching dogs to people, but I think they just want to observe and make sure everything is going well, that the dog is comfortable, that the graduate is comfortable. And you guys, even though these dogs are so amazing, speaking as someone that went through the graduate team training, it’s really intimidating to be going through this training and be getting this amazing dog. That’s a lot of pressure to want to do a really good job. I remember feeling really scared when I first got JT. You’re sitting in the room with him and you’re trying to all of the sudden be like, now I’m a dog owner. And now I’m responsible for this amazingly trained dog. I think there’s just a lot of almost imposter syndrome. A couple of the people in my class, I remember the next day they were like, “I don’t know if I’m cut out for this.” I think it’s just this pressure that you have. You get over it pretty quickly because you realize, “I can do this. It’s fine.” But it’s a lot. I think they want to make sure everyone feels comfortable with this match. But anyway, when they do pre-match day, all the applicants are sitting in a circle and the trainers take the dog out and they bring it to the person, and they are like, “This is your dog.” I remember I was last. So everyone in my class got their dog match.

Claire: Oh no.

Joy: Well, no. Because the whole time, I was like, “I know it’s JT.” I may have told this story before on the Girls Gone WOD podcast like eight years ago, but I’ll tell it again. But when you’re going through class, they have the kennel set up at the front of the room. So the dogs are all in their kennels. And I’ll never forget JT just kept staring at me. He just kept staring at me. When I’d look away and be like, “What are you looking at, dog?” And he would always stare at me. I remember thinking, is that my dog? It was really cute because at the very end when they gave the second to last dog to their person and JT was left, I was like, “I knew it was you!” It was really sweet. I was so excited. It was so special. The whole staff that works on campus comes out to watch pre-match and watch the graduates match with their forever dog. It’s really cool to witness. Everybody kind of cries, and everybody gets excited. It’s just a really, really special time. So today is pre-match day, June 2. My hope is that we hear tomorrow, June 3, that she’s pre-matched. If she’s not – the reason I say that is most of the time, graduate classes go in with more dogs than applicants. That’s just because if something doesn’t work out, they have a backup dog to fill in and see if there’s a better match for somebody. So there’s always a chance that she won’t match, but I just have such a strong feeling that she will. So by the time this episode airs. all of this will be old news and you’ll probably hear that we’re either flying to San Diego or not. Because we booked our flights already. As of right now, that’s where we’re at as of this recording. Kind of the timeline is that we’ll get a call from Canine Companions about the pre-match and they’ll say, “We’ll let you know when it’s confirmed.” Again, that just means they have to give the trainers time to watch the teams work together, make sure it’s the best match for the dog and for the human. And then we would fly out to watch her graduate on Friday, June 10. I can’t believe it’s here.

Claire: Are you just imagining her being in the pre-match and her little cute self being trotted out?

Joy: Yeah. So June 1, they met all the dogs. Everybody rotates. You work with like five different dogs throughout the day, so they give you a bunch of different dogs. And they give you your dog you’re going to be working with. You just don’t know which one it is. So they rotate you through a bunch of different dogs. One will be obviously the dog that you’re going to be matching with, just to kind of see how you do. It’s all very deliberate and calculated how they do this. It’s pretty amazing. Soap box for one second. This is why I get annoyed with fake service dogs because I’m like, you have no idea how much time and effort goes into the work to match with the service dog. It’s an incredible amount of work and time and energy. The thing that I imagine is if she’s worked with this person, they may have already felt a connection to her. So she’s already met this person and they’re probably just meeting and she’s going to be super excited. I imagine she’s just a wiggly butt. She’s a different dog now, you know. She’s been through six months of professional training. I keep that in mind. When we’re going to meet her, it’s not the same dog that we dropped off. That picture that I posted on social media on June 1, Canine Companions posted her class, so I posted that on Instagram if you want to see it. Actually, no, it’s stories. But just pay attention today when you’re listening to this episode. Just watch social media because we’ll either be going out to California or not, depending on if she’s going to graduate with this person. So what graduation looks like is we will get to see her before graduation. We’ll get to reunite, get the wiggles out. Because she’ll see us, and she might be a little confused. They always have the dog and the puppy raisers meet before graduation. And then we’ll meet the new person, and they’ll have a ceremony where we take the leash and take Cadet over to the new person. They call it the hand off. It’s very emotional, and everybody cries.

Claire: Yeah, I bet.

Joy: I watched the most recent graduation, like the regular service dog graduation, not the hearing. They have a hearing dog training and a service dog training. I just watched the recent service dog graduation, and within five minutes I’m bawling. I’m like, oh geez, I’m not going to be able to handle this. I’m not going to be able to handle this. So yeah, it will be pretty special. But all of my puppy raiser friends are like, “It’s kind of an out of body experience” They’re like, it’s almost the same experience as when you get married or something really big in your life. You just kind of float the whole day because you can’t really wrap your head around what’s happening. It’s just so cool. This is what she wanted to do. That’s kind of how you have to think about it. I know it’s a dog, but these dogs are the ones that tell you what they want to do with their life. Amazing. So if you see a CCI dog – so dogs with Canine Companions are in blue vests. If you see a blue vest out in the world with an orange leash, that is a hearing dog. I just learned that. I didn’t know that about the orange leash. But now I have connected with a gal who I puppy sat – no, not puppy sat. I dot sat. She’s a graduate. But I connected with a girl who lives down the street from me who has a hearing dog. So I’m learning all these cool things about her dog because that is what Cadet is hopefully going to do. It’s really neat. All in all, ten out of ten recommend this experience.

Claire: Zero out of ten for Covid while moving. Ten out of ten for puppy raising. Every time I see a service dog, especially a CCI dog, I feel like I’m having a celebrity sighting.

Joy: That’s what everyone says. It very much is like a celebrity sighting. And you know what, puppy raisers love when you come up and say hi, so please don’t hesitate. I actually love meeting people when I’m with Joe or Cadet. I love meeting people who have a connection with Canine Companions. We were once at the mall with Cadet. Someone came up to us and was like, “Oh my gosh, I was a puppy raiser.” Don’t be too afraid to approach a puppy in training because honestly it’s really good practice for them too to be greeted and to not have an excitable greeting. Always ask the puppy raiser if you can pet them, but I always love it when people come up to me. I just don’t like when people walk by and try to pet your dog without asking. That’s kind of annoying.

Claire: I mean, don’t do that to an animal at all.

Joy: Don’t do that to an animal period –

Claire: Oh, I have to tell this story about Evie. So we have our kids pretty well trained, I guess you could say, to ask people if they can pet their dogs.

Joy: This is great.

Claire: So if we’re anywhere out – like if we’re on a trail. Or a lot of times it will happen when we’re walking to the park or if we’re at a restaurant or something. You have to go up and ask if you can pet the dog. Maxine sends me this text the other day. Evie was at dance class, and one of the other little girls, their mom or whoever brought their baby sibling with them. And Evie went up to the mom and said, “Can I pet your baby?” I told [UNCLEAR 22:26.10] that, and she was like, “Honestly, that’s how I feel around babies.” Like, “Hey, can I pet your baby? What do I do?” But the mom just laughed and was like, “Okay.”

Joy: That’s so cute. Most people are really good in public now. I have yet to see somebody do the drive by pet or touch them without permission. And parents are really cute. You should hear parents explain if their young kids are pretty young. “That’s a working dog.” It’s just so sweet. It’s a good teachable moment of seeing a dog in a vest. So overall, it’s super fun. I love it. And Joe is doing great, by the way.

Claire: Yay Joe. Okay, so we are going to do a little bit of Q&A. But first, let’s talk about our favorite sponsors, Ned.

Joy: Oh Ned. Oh you guys.

Claire: Those guys.

Joy: Here’s a little fun fact. I posted this on stories last night, and I truly, truly mean it. Sometimes I feel weird posting ad-related stuff because I want to be like, no, you guys, really truly. This is not something I’m just trying to be adsy about. But last night when I saw the picture of Cadet, I was so wired. I posted a bunch of stuff on social media, which makes me more wired because I want to see what people are saying. Like all of our friends responding to Cadet being in college – or team training. And I was so wired that I knew I had to wind down. I’m’ going to be so wired I’m not going to fall asleep. So I got into my medicine cabinet, pulled out the Ned, and used the Sleep Blend. Works perfectly. Totally calmed me down. That’s another real-life example of where it’s really helpful. Maybe you’re out late, you’re not a late partier. Maybe you’re in your 40’s and you don’t stay up too late, but you have a moment where you’re like, I just need to come home and calm down, Ned is a great product. So thank you, Ned, for being there for me when I needed to fall asleep last night.

Claire: And I like the Daily Blend, which is their full spectrum hemp. Obviously right now, there’s a lot of really hard stuff going on in the world. I feel like we don’t often try to provide a place where people can really disconnect because we think it’s important to not disconnect. But that’s what I’ve been really needing is a space to disconnect. So that’s what you guys are going to be getting on the podcast because I just can’t really go there. But I want to acknowledge that it’s been really, really hard for me lately. I haven’t been sleeping. The only thing that has helped to take the edge off has been being able to use my Ned CBD. Again, I know it sounds so adsy, but I am really grateful to have that as a tool. I don’t respond well to sleeping pills. I do take Ativan sometimes for true panic attacks. I haven’t gotten to that point. But I don’t respond well to stronger pharmaceutics that are sleep aids. Even over-the-counter things like Unisom really knock me out the next day. Using the CBD I feel like really takes the edge off enough for me to naturally be able to fall sleep, and I don’t feel any effects the next day. So that’s how I’m using it lately. A little bit less of a fun example, but I just want to acknowledge for anyone out there who is in that really tough mental space, I’m there with you. We love Ned as a tool in our toolbox. You can become the best version of yourself and get 15% off Ned products with code JOY. Go to helloned.com/JOY or enter code JOY at checkout. That’s helloned.com/JOY to get 15% off. Thank you, Ned, for sponsoring the show and offering our listeners a natural remedy for some of life’s most common health issues. And thank you listeners for supporting the brands that support our podcast.

Joy: Thank you, Ned. Can I start with an older question?

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: I think I posted something a couple months ago, and I keep forgetting to answer this question. But someone asked about career challenges. This question has been pushed out, kind of like in a toxic situation, much like what I went through. And their question is, what were some initial flags that I might have explained away or ignored but looking back now are signs. What did I do to get ahead of the issue that obviously didn’t work? Do I think there was a better way to handle it? Were there any warning signs? Was there someone who should have fought for you? Woah, that’s a hard one. Yes, damn it.

Claire: I have a less emotionally charged answer to this question.

Joy: Please begin. I actually am in a better place, to be honest.

Claire: I left a job a couple years ago. I was in an extreme, toxic overworking situation where the busier you were, the more glorified it was. The job was in the hospitality industry, so a lot of the employees worked in customer facing rolls. So there was not a corporate holiday policy because our busiest times were over the holidays. So if you wanted to take a holiday off, you had to take PTO. And there was this point of pride of how much work you could get done if you came in on Thanksgiving and Christmas. That should have been a huge red flag. I think the other really huge red flag that I recognize now looking back is we would have this annual department summit where people would get up and tell these stories about basically, every single one of them was like, “I hit rock bottom. I pulled myself up by my bootstraps.” Basically all the stories were about how they sacrificed everything to get back on track with their job. That was really the storyline that was glorified. This should be your number one priority. You are the only person who can help you.

Joy: You’re responsible for all your success?

Claire: Exactly. It’s you and you alone.

Joy: It sounds like an MLM.

Claire: It was toxic leadership, basically. It was toxic, conscious leadership where they tried to say, “You need to figure out how to be your own leader.” I’m a coordinator. So it was just very, very toxic.

Joy: I need guidance.

Claire: Right. If you had a struggle or a failing, it would turn around on you that you weren’t a good enough leader. You weren’t doing… it was very, very toxic. It was your fault that you had failed at this initiative, whatever it was, whether it was big or small. And looking back, they tried to use that as, “It’s up to you.” They thought it was motivational, and it actually was so toxic. I have this moment I remember – I think for me this was so much more distinctive than other people. I would go into my boss’ office every day and be like, “I’m drowning. Help me.” One day she finally looked at me and said, “Well Claire, you were the one who applied for this job.” I mean, talk about a moment where someone should have fought for me and was absolutely not willing to. She was under water. She was not getting any support. People were quitting left and right in out department, so this poor woman was working three or four jobs. I have empathy for what she was going through. But at the same time, that was a moment I will never forget of feeling like, oh wow, I am completely on my own. Not only am I completely on my own, but I am being made to think that I have done this to myself. For me, the only things I really tried – because to set the stage a little bit more, Miles was not even a year old. I was a brand new, first-time mom. This was my first job out of grad school. I really didn’t feel like I had many levers to pull, so really all I did was try to work harder. I lost hair. I developed heart palpitations. I became physically very unhealthy. But the only really solution presented to me was, “You just have to figure your way out of this, and you just have to work it out.” I think now I’m a lot more quick to set boundaries. That’s the number one thing I pride myself on in my job. I am not going to answer your email outside of work hours unless we have a pre-arranged agreement that that’s going to happen. I’m not going to put myself through Covid. I’m going to take my days off. I’m going to take my PTO. I’m not going to check my email while on vacation. All of these things that I think are so normalized. Of course you’re not going to check your email while on vacation, but it’s so normalized to do that kind of stuff. Or just answer an email real quick right as you’re getting into bed. I have come to the point of having gone through that toxic experience, it’s so hard for me to take things personally at work now. I mean that in a really positive way. Because I had to go through this gauntlet of being told everything was personal, I now realize that actually I’m doing a good job. If something is not working out, that is not a personal reflection on anything I’m doing or not doing.in a way that means something about who I am. It might mean I am not good at this thing that I’m trying to do, but it doesn’t mean that I am personally a bad leader or not trying hard enough. I think this goes back to a larger conversation we’ve been having a lot this year of me coming to this realization of I don’t want to have to try hard. I don’t have to give 110% all the time. That should not be the expectation. The expectation should not be going above and beyond for everything. That’s not sustainable. You can’t go above and beyond for everything. You can’t give 110% all the time. I don’t even think you can give 100% all of the time, if I’m being completely honest. At work. Not if you have other stuff going on in your life. I think that’s the biggest thing now that I really try to keep in perspective. I don’t want to ever get to that point again to where I was leaving it all at work and didn’t have anything else to give anyone else in my life.

Joy: And not taking things personal is a game changer.

Claire: Huge game changer. I know I’ve said this like a thousand times on the podcast. But there is a Hilary Clinton quote where she says, “Learn to take criticism seriously but not personally.” Learning that distinction is so critical. The other big one is control what you can control, which is so buzzy. But it’s really true. I think the important part about that is recognizing – I think some people here, you think “control” and they think, quick, run around and grab everything so you can control all of it. And really what it means is be okay with the stuff that you do not have control over.

Joy: Right. Let go of the stuff that you can’t control.

Claire: Right. Don’t turn that around and try to use it to control everything. Use that piece of wisdom to actually let go of control and acknowledge the things that you have to just let happen. Like supply chain issues or whatever.

Joy: Right. Well I’m going to keep mine short because I feel like I’m at a point right now I realized, as of yesterday, I don’t know if I want to talk about this anymore. I think it’s because I hit the year mark. And also just a very random fact of one of the benefits that they gave me when I left – Sandy always tells me, “Careful of what you say because the words you say is the story you tell yourself.” I try not to be bitter when I talk about it. One of the benefits in the severance package that I got is that I got a year of health insurance, which I was so grateful for. But it ended on June 1. I think when I talked about this previously too is that I had strings attached to the company still, so I was very worried about saying anything because they could be jerks and they could probably come after me. So as of June 1, I was like, oh my gosh, I’m finally free. I have no ties to them whatsoever. Not that I’m going to be lashing out, bashing. Because I’m kind of over it. I cut up the insurance cards. I put them in the trash. I was like, oh my gosh, this feels really big. I’m done. I’m done, I’m done, I’m done. So just in a quick nutshell of the red flags is that I remember trying to change a culture and trying to do it in a way where I was going to senior leadership and either expressing concerns or trying to show ways to improve and work with people who are so, so talented. And their response was very punitive and negative, and that was so devastating. A lot of it was a lot of lip service, so much lip service, zero action. That was a red flag. As far as getting ahead of the issue, I think what I tried to do a lot of times – and this was my fault is I would be a kiss ass and I would try very hard to make alliances because the culture was so messed up that you kind of had to make alliances to get by. So that was me trying to get ahead of the issue, but it would also backfire because that is not an honest and truthful way to go about it. I was not being honest with myself. And I knew that I was playing some of this game, which I think on some level, to survive in a place like that you have to do that. Not recognizing of how messed up that was is also when you’re in it and you’re spinning, it’s hard to recognize that that is what you are doing. So that didn’t work. It never worked. I also was in a middle management position, and middle managers have the pressure from the top and the pressure from the bottom. You’re constantly in this pressure sandwich where upper management would always say, “Well, it’s your responsibility, Joy. You need to take care of this with your team.” But they would never take accountability. I was always left with zero support from the top, having to execute something to my team and they’re just pissed off at the top, and the top would be pissed off at me because I didn’t handle it appropriately according to them. Which yes, I did. As far as warning signs when I was interviewing, absolutely not. Because everyone kind of presents their best self when they are interviewing, so I don’t think so. I think you should ask as an interviewee, you should ask a lot of really directed questions about the culture. I did that with my current workplace. I said, tell me about the culture. What is it like? I had three or four interviews, and I asked every single time. They all had great, glowing things to say that I felt were genuine. So I would say when you’re interviewing, ask directed questions about culture. As far as someone who should have fought for me, no. Because it was such a messed-up culture, I don’t think anyone in the top, I wouldn’t want them on my side. Looking back. Should they have fought for me? Maybe. Maybe, if they would have recognized all the great work that I did there. But no, they made that choice. And there is a part of me that is… let’s put it this way. They had to deal with the consequences of losing me. There was a lot of negative consequences of losing me. And that, to me, is a little bit of karma.

Claire: Yeah. Really validating.

Joy: Yeah, it was.

Claire: Alright, let’s do a couple shorter, fun questions. I mean, it’s just long.

Joy: Yeah. Rapid fire.

Claire: If you could dye your hair any color, what would it be? I think we’ve answered this one before, but I would go white, platinum blonde.

Joy: You want platinum. How is the wig situation? Have you had more information about that?

Claire: Oh, great question. I still am very interested in it. I have a couple accounts now that I follow. They are so expensive. And I knew this, right? They are like $1000+. The idea is a little bit on hold since we just bought a house.

Joy: Sure.

Claire: But it still very much is on my radar. What about you? Pink?

Joy: Pink.

Claire: Because your hair is curly.

Joy: Because my hair is curly pink. I just like pink. It’s more about what looks good on me. I don’t think any other color has – I like platinum, and I like pink.

Claire: Would you rather be a contestant on Love is Blind, The Ultimatum, or MAFS? What is that? Married at First Sight. Never seen any of those shows. That’s not true. I watched like one episode of Love is Blind.

Joy: I think you would be better at Love is Blind because you would sniff out any bullshit, and you’d be good at that. You wouldn’t be the person that’s falling hard for somebody behind a wall.

Claire: Definitely not.

Joy: You’d be like, “How do you feel about climate change?”

Claire: Yeah, no, I would not.

Joy: I don’t know, let me think. Probably Love is Blind. Because Married at First Sight, you’re putting your faith into these experts to pick somebody for you. I don’t know. I’d rather do Love is Blind. It’s still a blind date.

Claire: If you could create a holiday, what would it be? It would definitely be around baking or camping. But I feel like a camping holiday, then there would be no good camping spots left. Pie Day is a good one. Maybe Bread Day.

Joy: Bread Day. But that’s kind of like a lot with Donut Day.

Claire: I know. But I don’t know, is there a Bread Day? If there is a Bread Day, then I would like to expand the celebration of Bread Day. It doesn’t get enough media. I would like a bread parade. I would like to be crowned Miss Bread 2022.

Joy: I could see you doing a parade where the float is just a huge bowl of soup and you’re surrounded by –

Claire: Oh, what about a bread bowl of soup?

Joy: There you go. And then you’re surrounded by pieces of bread. You are actually bathing in the soup.

Claire: I’m in a hot tub of soup? I could see that happening. Especially because I hate hot tubs because I think it’s people soup.

Joy: You do. But if you’re in soup, is it the same?

Claire: It’s fine. That would be fine. That’s acceptable.

Joy: If you’re surrounded by soup, that is the loophole.

Claire: Then I don’t have to have the mental dissonance. Do you have one?

Joy: Well the first one that came to mind is a half birthday because I love birthdays so much. I know we joke about half birthdays. People will be like, “That’s my half birthday,” or maybe we actually do A Very Merry Unbirthday from Alice in Wonderland. I would really like to make that happen. And then the other one was probably just around a party where you can wear sequence.

Claire: There you go. Strawberry or grape jelly. Strawberry.

Joy: Strawberry.

Claire: I don’t like the texture of grape. It’s too gelatinous.

Joy: Yes. Agreed.

Claire: If you could switch lives with someone for one day, who would it be?

Joy: I really want to know what Jennifer Aniston’s house is like.

Claire: Oh, that’s a funny answer.

Joy: I just am so curious what her house is like. And she has dogs. I want to play with her dogs.

Claire: I think I would pick someone who has some amazing physical talent.

Joy: Of course you would. I pick Jennifer Aniston.

Claire: Yeah, and I’m like, I would want to do back flips or something.

Joy: Or be like Kevin Durant where you’re just one of the best basketball players.

Claire: Yeah. Or an amazing rock climber.

Joy: Oh yeah.

Claire: Or like Tia-Claire Toomey who is incredible at CrossFit. Something like that. I would want to experience a day in the life of someone who is incredibly good at some physical skill.

Joy: Yeah, that’s a really good one.

Claire: What is your favorite popsicle or frozen treat flavor? “I love orange popsicles,” says this person.

Joy: Good for you.

Claire: I do like an orange popsicle. We make popsicles for my kids with orange juice and coconut milk, and it’s like a creamsicle situation.

Joy: Alright. Well I don’t love popsicles because they hurt my teeth. So I’m going to go with an ice cream sandwich.

Claire: Oh, I love ice cream sandwiches. I would go with that too actually. A good ole fashioned ice cream sandwich where the cookie on the outside comes apart in your fingers.

Joy: Have you had one from Sweet Action yet? Did you ever go to Sweet Action?

Claire: Yes. Yes, I did. Here’s my thing.

Joy: Uh oh, too big.

Claire: Too big. How am I supposed to eat this? It’s frozen solid.

Joy: You have to leave it out for a little bit. There’s a little bit of work in preparation.

Claire: You have to unhinge your job.

Joy: Yeah, you do. It’s true. These are ones you can’t just pick it up and eat it on the street. You do have to take it home, leave it out for a little bit. There’s a little prep work.

Claire: That’s delayed gratification. I want the one that’s at the gas station that’s a little flat rectangle.

Joy: Yeah, and the paper.

Claire: The paper.

Joy: Just unwrap. Oh, those are so good. I want one right now. So good. What was the place – Sweet Cow? That we went to on 32^nd and Lowell? And they have… is it the pretzel cones?

Claire: Oh yeah, those are so good. So good.

Joy: So good.

Claire: I love Sweet Cow. Longmont is getting a Sweet Cow.

Joy: That’s great.

Claire: That’s how we know Longmont has arrived.

Joy: Yes, it has arrived.

Claire: Carrot cake with or without raisins and nuts? I would say yes nuts, no raisins.

Joy: Hmm. I’ll say go ahead and throw it all in. I don’t have a strong opinion. These questions are so funny.

Claire: I love it. This person in all caps, “WHICH BEAR IS BEST?” I also have to say most of these questions are from April, so thanks for hanging in there with us.

Joy: Oh, thank you.

Claire: Which bear is best?

Joy: I’m going to have you answer this because I don’t know enough about bears.

Claire: Yeah, I have a lot of opinions about bears. I love a grizzly bear. I love a good ole fashioned brown bear standing in the creek eating salmon. Number one. Number two, got to be pandas. Right? Has to be. Number three, I think we’ve got to go with polar bears because their cubs are so cute. And that concludes my top three bears.

Joy: Thank you. I’m going to agree.

Claire: Do you concur?

Joy: I concur.

Claire: Great. Let’s see here.

Joy: Oh, I have a question. This came up last week. Did you have a high school snack that you ate every day?

Claire: Cheetos.

Joy: Did you?

Claire: I was so obsessed with Cheetos.

Joy: Not at home, but at school?

Claire: At school. There was a vending machine. And also, we had a snack stand that was run by the PTO that was at the front of the school. It would open at 2. I think the school probably got out at 3. They made these fresh baked cookies – you made them in a toaster oven. I ate so many of those.

Joy: Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. I think back to all the junk.

Claire: Can you imagine if I live my life off of Cheetos and Tollhouse cookies, I would just have a migraine all the time.

Joy: Oh my gosh, our bodies were so young and –

Claire: Resilient.

Joy: Steel. My buns, they ain’t nothing…

Joy and Claire: They don’t feel nothing like steel.

Joy: Oh rest in peace Brittany Murphy. I in junior high used to eat – well this is because the popular girls recommended it. It was the chocolate shake. You dip your fries into the chocolate shake.

Claire: Oh, I love that. I still do that to this day.

Joy: But the cool girls were doing it, so I was like, I guess I need to do it.

Claire: Fun fact. At Wendy’s, you can order a kid’s Frosty. And it’s a Dixie cup full of Frosty that’s just enough for fry dipping.

Joy: Oh perfect. So that trend, it’s still going on? It’s still a popular trend with the kids?

Claire: It’s still a popular trend with the kids. I would know. Because I am a kid.

Joy: And then in high school, they used to sell these amazing cinnamon rolls that were just pure frosting. Oh my gosh, I’d get those after cheer practice. Great way to recover.

Claire: Yeah, you’ve got to replenish those glycogen stores.

Joy: Yeah. And then sophomore year, every day at lunch I would get a Snicker’s bar and a Diet Coke. Or Diet Coke… geez, who am I? Dr Pepper. I’m trying to think of all of the – I had many snacks to choose from. And then when we’d go after school to the gas station, I would get a raspberry lemonade with Hot Tamales and drink it. This huge, huge raspberry lemonade – no, raspberry iced tea.

Claire: I was going to say, it’s probably Arizona iced tea.

Joy: It was raspberry iced tea. I would get this huge cup and rink the whole thing and eat the Hot Tamales and wonder why I had such a bad stomachache. It was just a big sugar bomb. I’d be like, why does my stomach hurt?

Claire: It’s just a mystery. Isn’t that also amazing?

Joy: You just don’t know. You’re like, ugh, I don’t feel good.

Claire: I’m severely lactose intolerant. And my whole childhood – I once was evaluated for stomach tumors. No one thought to be like, “Hey Claire, maybe it’s because you’re dinking a half a gallon of milk every day.” It was just a huge mystery until I was in high school. I feel like we did recently talk about high school candy because I remember talking about Nerds Ropes.

Joy: Yes. Mine was circus peanuts.

Claire: Speaking of snacks, preferred road trip snacks? Salty or sweet, or do you buy one of each kind? Road trip snacks… love slaty. And then sometimes I’ll get some chocolate maybe. I’m not a big gummy person, apart from the Nerds Ropes era. But I have some salty snacks and a little bit of chocolate.

Joy: I’m probably like a pretzel person. Pretzels or peanut butter filled pretzels.

Claire: Oh, I love peanut butter filled pretzels. Those are the best road trip snack.

Joy: Yeah. Really good. Really filling, but you could eat a million of them. Which by the way, it was funny. Somebody asked when I posted a meal the other day – from Thrive Market, I ordered this Wild Planet tuna, and they have these little tuna cans that are tuna pasta or whatever. It just has these yummy mixes of flavors.

Claire: Like a tuna salad?

Joy: Yeah, but they’re tiny. And someone posted, “Is it filling?” And I wanted to be like, does it matter? We don’t need to be worried about if it’s filling. I’m not eating a 250-calorie snack to be full. [laughing]

Claire: I guess if you were the type that’s really lacking on filling snacks and you’re like, maybe this is a filling snack I could grab.

Joy: Sure, that’s true. But it was just funny because I’m like, we don’t need to… no. Are we done?

Claire: We do have one kind of bigger question, and I think we need to talk about it for a second. I know we said it during the ad that we weren’t really going to talk about this. But somebody says, “How do you stay positive with everything that’s been happening for the last 3+ years?” I think there is no easy answer, and that’s why I wanted to answer this question. There is no right or wrong way, and there’s no single thing. Trying things and seeing what moves the needle in a positive direction, verses moves the needle in the opposite direction. That’s just kind of been the way that I’ve been approaching it. Because also, sometimes something that feels positive in one season might feel really counterproductive or really exhausting. I think back to right before the 2020 election, I was hitting it super hard on Instagram with abortion – I was getting into it in the comments with people and DMs, trying to advocate for abortion rights and trying to spread information. Similarly when the vaccines first came out. I would get into it. And that felt good to me. It felt productive. It felt like I’m using my voice. And now I’m in a phase where I can truly barely be on Instagram at all. I can barely interact with people. I can barely talk about this stuff on the podcast right now. There’s a lot that goes into that ebb and flow of what you can tolerate. I think the main thing is to honor that and not let anyone else dictate expectations for how you show up.

Joy: I think what happens is you don’t want to get to a point – and I said this before – to where you’re so overwhelmed that you’re not helpful. So if you need to take a step away, take a step away from social media. Take a step away from the things that are draining your battery, so that you can be a full-functioning human and be there for your friends, your family. Where you do have an impact and then you maybe can put your energy towards a cause that you’re actually passionate about. That’s where you should focus. It’s really important that we don’t get to the point of numb, overwhelm. I never want people to say, “Oh. I just can’t read the news. I can’t look at that stuff.” We have to at some point know what’s going on so that you can take action. You also don’t need to get so overwhelmed that you short circuit and give up. That’s a scary place to be. That is my hope when I talk to people about this. Do what you need to recharge your battery, but don’t get to a point where you’re overwhelmed. I noticed that when the election was going on in 2020. I was so drained because I was fighting pointless arguments. That’s battery draining, and it does nothing. So what is productive and where you spend your energy, it’s important to look at that. It’s not necessarily that you have to be positive, because it’s a very overwhelming place to be in the world right now. And recognizing that. But we also have to take care of ourselves so that we can, just with anything else, so that we can make changes and we can put energy towards the causes that we’re passionate about.

Claire: Alright guys. On that note, I think that wraps us up for this week. Thanks so much for being here. You can follow us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can find us on our beautiful new website, joyandclaire.com. You can email us thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. Don’t forget to check out our sponsor, Ned. That’s helloned.com/JOY or use code JOY for 15% off. We love all of their products. They third-party test. They are really just a wonderful tool to have in your toolbox to help support mental health and be your best self. Thanks for supporting the brands that support our podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening. Just thank you guys for being wonderful. And we will talk to you next week.

Joy: Bye, guys.

Claire: Bye.

129: How Your Attachment Style Affects Your Relationships

June 2, 2022 by Joy Parrish Leave a Comment

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What is attachment style, and how does it show up in your relationships? Jessica Baum, LMHC talks about how to work through our attachment wounds to create better intimate relationships.

Jessica Baum

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 129: How Your Attachment Style Affects Your Relationships

Episode Date: June 2, 2022

Transcription Completed: July 31, 2022

Audio Length: 54:21 minutes

Joy: Hey guys. This is Joy and Claire. Welcome to another episode of This is Joy and Claire. This week, Claire is out. Her kiddos are sick. Claire is sick. But we wanted to provide a very special guest this week. Wrapping up Mental Health Month – actually, this episode is going to go out on June 2. But it’s okay. It’s right on the tail end of Mental Health Month. Very excited to welcome Jessica Baum to the show. Hi, Jessica.

Jessica: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Joy: Thank you so much for being here. I was very excited when you were pitched to us as a guest because my life is mental health. Has been for 20 years. And it’s rare, for whatever reason – I think it’s just a very isolated world as a therapist. You don’t just go on podcasts all the time. It’s a tricky thing to do to talk about mental health without it getting into client privilege. I’m so excited to talk to you. You have a book coming out. You have a business. You have a coaching business. Give the listeners a quick rundown of who you are and what you do.

Jessica: Okay. So I’m Jessica Baum. I’m a psychotherapist. I do have a coaching business with a team of therapists. We really specialize in trauma and relationships and helping people work through either their interpersonal problems in their relationships or how their childhood trauma or how their core wounds are showing up repeatedly in their relationship and getting really conscious with their partner or single. On repairing that and healing that so that they don’t have to keep repeating the same patterns in their life.

Joy: So what kind of prompted you to do this work? I think I heard you on another episode of a podcast talking about how you wrote the book that you kind of wish you had.

Jessica: What pulled me into psychotherapy was my own journey with depression and anxiety. But what prompted me to write the book. I thought I was a codependent. I was reading every single book in my 20’s on codependency and nothing was really explaining what was happening in my body. The sensations in my body, the nervous system. It wasn’t until I really understood attachment theory and the nervous system and how relationships activate everything for your core wounds to surface and made sense of my experiences and a lot of my behaviors. And then I was seeing it in my practice in couple’s counseling. I was seeing it in unconscious bonds being made, and I was helping people unpack these. I was just like, I’ve got to get some of this out into the world so that people understand what’s really going on inside of them and what’s happening inside their relationships.

Joy: You made me think about when I was in my 20’s how you’re trying so hard to “figure out what’s wrong with you” when there is so much more to that than just one thing that’s wrong with you. Can you explain – and I shouldn’t say “wrong.” But the things that we’re trying to work through. Can you explain a little bit to the listeners about attachment theory and what that means?

Jessica: Sure. So attachment theory is at the root of a lot of things. When you’re a baby and you are with your primary care givers, the way in which your mother relates to you – but it’s called coregulation. You’re one energetic unit with your mother, and you’re kind of in a dance. She’s attending to your needs and attuning to you. If you have a mom who is good enough and attunes to you and is there, you can develop a more secure base within. That means when your mom isn’t there one day, you feel secure. But if you have a mom who has a lot of stress in her life or doesn’t have the emotional IQ or is going through something, she’s not as available to you and doesn’t attune to you, your nervous system is primed to think that maybe you won’t get your needs met. That’s definitely where an anxious person goes. Or they’ll be inconsistent with you. You might get your needs met, and then you feel like the ball is going to drop inside your system all the time. Or an avoidant person is someone who didn’t get their needs met at all and just sort of gives up on relationships and doesn’t place a lot of value on them and has a hard time being vulnerable and coregulating. So an anxious person can struggle with self-regulating because they didn’t get a lot of co-regulation. And an avoidant person learns only to self-regulate because they didn’t get a lot of co-regulation. So the goal is to really understand where you fall and work within your individual needs and work with them and understand them so that you can build some more security with them. And that’s a process.

Joy: When people are learning about themselves to say, “I think this might be a fit for me,” is it always that they have to go to therapy to talk through this? Or what do you suggest people do to connect with what they are personally going through?

Jessica: I think that if you’re having an idea that you have some co-dependency or you have abandonment wound, you don’t have to go to therapy, but you need to build secure relationships. So that when these things come up, you have safe people to go to that can help hold them. It’s not always about fixing. Sometimes it’s just knowing that people are there for you when you’re in a more anxious state and having that support system there. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a therapist, although a therapist might help connect it to deeper things in your life and therefore integrate more of your experience and build what we call neuroplasticity and expand your window of tolerance. So therapist, a coach, someone who is nonjudgmental, warm, consistent, and reliable. You want a few of those people in your life, and your nervous system will start to recognize, okay, I have some safe people to depend on. So when I get anxious, the first thing I can do is start to depend on dependable people.

Joy: Yeah. Like, “It’s going to be okay.” I always talk to clients about soothing. Of how you just need to be soothed. I’m assuming that kind of ties into when you’re a baby or the attachment of being soothed or not soothed and how that shows up for you is people who will self-sooth or they’ll turn to alcohol or drugs or whatever kind of addiction because they are trying to self-sooth. Talk a little bit about how you see that tying into the work.

Jessica: Yeah, sure. So when you’re born, you’re not born with a parasympathetic nervous system. So you have a sympathetic nervous system intact, but your parasympathetic is not fully developed. That’s the part of your system that kind of calms you down. Your mother or primary care giver is the stand in for your self-soother. So she is not able to self-sooth you. You don’t build the circuitry for self-soothing. You can’t self-regulate. That’s essentially one of the major hallmarks of someone who struggles with anxious attachment. Because your mom wasn’t able to attune and sooth you, you didn’t build that narrow wiring inside. So you can’t just go out and self-sooth. You actually need health co-regulation to create self-regulation. That happens first. So if that’s you and you struggle, by being co-regulated or being really held and attuned by a therapist or someone who really knows how to be with you, when that happens enough, that’s when you actually build the neuroplasticity to start to self-sooth.

Joy: So when you say “co-regulating,” you’re meaning that there is another person with you to help guide you through those emotions. When you’re a baby, it’s rocking, maybe patting on the back. It’s rubbing the arm. Whatever it is that’s that very calming presence. Is that what that is?

Jessica: Yeah. I love those examples. Those are really great. But it also really comes down to the nervous system. So when you have someone whose nervous system – we call it in ventral state. It’s an open state. You can’t fake this state, right? If someone is in a safe state and is present with you, they’ll have a calmer voice. They’ll be more attentive. They will be more soothing because they’re soothed. Your system recognizes that, and their system can help your system down-regulate. Their system is helping you regulate your own system.

Joy: Yeah, kind of a mirroring of sorts.

Jessica: Yeah. Or joining.

Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s so fascinating. I have a million questions, but I’m trying to stay on track with my questions. So first question. I kind of guess what the audience is going to ask. Is this the only way to get that soothing, that regulating, that co-regulating, is it from a mother? Can it be from any caregiver?

Jessica: Anybody, yeah. Anybody who is genuinely, authentically there for you and can provide that safety in their system.

Joy: That stability, that safety. Okay. And then what would you say some examples of how it starts to show up as people get older? Does it show up as a child? Does it show up as a teenager? Does it show up as an adult? When would people start to recognize this might be lacking in their life?

Jessica: When they can’t regulate. Maybe they are reaching out for substance, when they are overdependent on their romantic partner to self-regulate. Or when they have a hard time calming themselves down. If they feel perpetually anxious or that the shoe is going to drop. Low self-esteem is a common indicator that the sense of self isn’t really very secure. So it could show up at any point in your life. A lot of children you can notice it earlier on. But it definitely shows up in your romantic relationships because the way in which you adapted or these strategies that happened when you were little get replayed in your adult life unconsciously because they are nervous system responses. So when you are in a romantic relationship, you tend to track the other person you attend to. Sometimes be a pleaser. You can abandon yourself. There is a lot of what I call selfless behaviors in order to stay in connection. Because we’re all wired to be in connection. It’s our biological imperative to stay in connection. However you adapted when you were small are going to be the same strategies that you use as an adult. The behaviors might be different, but the strategies get laid down really early.

Joy: It’s so interesting. You hear about people who are like, “I’m never going to be like my parents” or “I’m not going to do this,” “I’m not going to do that.” And I’m not saying this as all across the board it’s bad. But sometimes we do look at our caregivers and we’re like, “I’m not going to repeat this behavior.” “I’m not going to repeat this angry behavior,” whatever. And you kind of end up doing it. Is it a similar thing where you have that template, that inner workings, that connection that you can’t just automatically think your way out of it. You have to work through it a little more intensely, maybe through therapy?

Jessica: I like that question a lot. I talk about this in the book. We internalize our parents, whether we like it or not. We take them kn. Their essence becomes part of us. If it’s a secure parent, it’s a safe voice, it’s a safe feeling. If it’s an anxious parent or an absent parent, you bring that in. And that’s when you’re coregulating or you’re picking people to heal with now, you start internalizing them. You start to replace – I call it your “inner community,” but you start to internalize healthier people. So you can think, okay, maybe I don’t have the words for myself right now, but what would so-and-so say to me right now? How would it feel to be next to them. And you kind of rebuild what you didn’t get. You just build that inner security with the right people now. Think of it, you have to go back, and you have to reexperience things early on a healthier way now so you can reshape your brain essentially.

Joy: That makes a lot of sense. I think a lot about – this is going sound so silly, but it’s the only example that comes to mind – when you watch it in real time. I love reality shows. I love reality shows. I’ll watch some of these, I don’t know, Love is Blind or Married at First Sight – where if you haven’t watched it, listeners, basically they are paired up and it’s almost like you can see as a therapist, I’m watching this from a behavioral lens. Oh my gosh, I can see the attachment stuff come out right ton screen. Where at first, it’s that honeymoon phase. Everything is blissful and happy. Everyone is like, “Oh my gosh, it’s the best person in the world.” The second they start connecting on a more intimate level and the emotions go deeper, all this stuff comes out. They start arguing. “Real life” sets in. Would you say that’s kind of an example – a silly one, of course. But an example of how attachment styles will happen. Once you start mixing it up with a partner, it’s not always going to be hearts and towers. Claire and I talk about this a lot. We try to be very real about our own partnerships because we never want people to fall into the fairytale Instagram land where everything is like, “Oh my gosh, look at my best friend that I live with. We have the most blissful relationship.” That’s not how it is. One of my previous therapists said to me, which I love, is no one shows up naked to the party. We’ve all got something. We all carry something to the party. We’ve all got our crap that we have to show up to. Would you say that that is kind of an example of how people would see it maybe start to show up more intensely? I think romantic partnerships tend to present it a little more strongly, like in your face.

Jessica: No, I think you’re dead on. I think when you really study the neuroscience and the evolution of relationships, what we’re presented, what it should look like is a set up. People don’t understand that when you start in a relationship, you start as your best self. Your best self shows up. And then as you get closer to intimacy, either the fear of intimacy or the fear of abandonment can show up, and then the strategies around that show up. That’s common with the anxious avoidant dance that people may be or maybe not be familiar. One person is scared of being intimate, and the other person is scared of being abandoned. So people run closer, while the other one distances themselves, and there will be all these strategies. You don’t really know what the dance is until the fear and the core wounds start getting touched. And then you can start to see, here’s where the work is. If you can do the work and you get vulnerable and conscious about what’s really going on, there is a beautiful path to healing your own stuff and evolving as a couple. But it’s hard. It’s not easy.

Joy: It’s so hard.

Jessica: Sometimes you need help around that.

Joy: It’s so hard. I’ve talked about this for the past forever years that we’ve been doing this, how it took me a good five years to settle into being married. Meaning I was all over the place. I was probably anxiously attached. But talk about your book. I’m noticing the title, Anxiously Attached. What is that? What does that look like a little bit more? What is the book about? Can you walk us through a little bit of that piece?

Jessica: Yeah. The book is about healing anxious attachment. I go through what that really is, how you’ve adapted. I also talk a lot about avoidant attachment because it’s the other side of the same coin. I find that anxious people always want to understand that. I think if you’re anxious, you’re going to pick up on any avoidant protector. So I kind of walk the reader through really understanding how they adapted, locating their core wounds. Then I have some somatic practices. So for those that are listening, it’s kind of like going into your body, starting to release some of those sensations, starting to be more in bodied. Then the third part of the book is about how to apply that to your current or future relationships. It’s a three-park book. First, you’re kind of identifying and learning about yourself. Then you’re doing the inner work. Then you’re taking some of that and you’re learning, how do I love differently from this new perspective in the third part of the book? I’m really excited because I’m an imago therapist. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that.

Joy: I am. Talk a little bit about that for people who aren’t familiar.

Jessica: So “imago” means image. I kind of talk about this in chapter two, but we can be attracted to partners who have positive and negative qualities of our primary caregiver. This happens on an unconscious level. Sometimes the people we are attracted to have the same level of wounding as us. So we don’t even know it. We could go in a room, and maybe you grew up in an alcoholic family. There is a thousand suitors, and you pick a suitor that is definitely an alcoholic. There is a [UNSURE 00:16:27.22] telly, there is an unknowing, there is an image that we’re drawn to certain people for certain reasons. Sometimes it’s because it feels familiar. It doesn’t always have to be trauma, but there is a familiarity. So we’re going to gravitate towards people, and then we’re going to come together, and then our work is going to show up. The person who maybe was wonderful is going to now present some of our biggest fears and concerns. The question is then, can both people get more conscious about what’s going on inside. It’s kind of annoying that this information is not out there to the general public. I think so many people leave relationships without really giving it a chance or riding it out or getting the right support or truly understanding what’s going on for them. There’s a lot of fear, and it’s in our culture to go back online and date, or just try again. Your patterns stay with you.

Joy: I was just going to say that. You just repeat the same patterns over and over.

Jessica: There are perhaps safer relationships in terms of more forgiving relationships, but you’re still going to repeat them. So the hope is that you can get conscious with whomever you are, even right now before you move on to the next. Or maybe you evolve in this relationship and use it as a catalyst as your own growth, and your partner decides to grow too with you.

Joy: How important is it that the partners are on the same page? Because sometimes one partner is doing more work than the other. That can also be very confusing for people. “I’m doing my growth, and this person isn’t doing their growth.”

Jessica: It’s a tricky question. Because someone who is anxious will line up for work all day long, and sometimes that is anxiety-driven. So sometimes someone who is anxious is being with the uncertainty and being with the abandonment and letting things settle, and that’s actually where the work is. Being held in that –

Joy: I relate with that so much.

Jessica: I do too. I totally do. It’s frustrating trying to get someone who is more avoidant to go to therapy. I can say a lot about that. The hope is that there is enough space for that person to get vulnerable too. Both things are happening. Every dynamic is different. But if you do your own work, there is a system there. It’s going to shift. So the only thing you have control over is yourself and doing your own work in hopes you change the system. That’s a really important thing for an anxious person because we want to control the other person, and we think if they fix it then we’ll be okay. And the truth is, it would be nice if they were on board doing the work with us the way we want it done. But sometimes our work is to let go and realize that might not be the work for them. Or maybe they will do the work when we finally let go and deal with some of the abandonment and the energy shifts.

Joy: Yes. That’s another important piece too. I hear a lot of people asking questions to us. “How do I get my partner to do this?” “How do I get my partner to do that?” Lose weight, go to therapy, what have you. And I always say, “You can’t.” You can’t get anybody to do anything. What you can do is do the best work on yourself. I think that does give you a different lens when you’re even talking to your partner or your friends or whomever.

Jessica: It’s definitely empowering.

Joy: Yes, it’s empowering. I was recently talking to a client about this. She had a really big breakthrough last week. She’s like, “I can completely see how I’m talking to my partner differently this week just from that one thing.” And that may shift enough to where you can land on a plateau for a while and just hang out there and work on some things on your own and not just completely jump ship. So it doesn’t always have to be your partner is in the same exact place all the time.

Jessica: Yeah. An anxious attachment, another name for it is ambivalent. What that really means is, I am not comfortable in the unknown. So I have to either be running towards or running away if things get uncomfortable. I think it’s really hard for us to sit in uncertainty and to not know and to not be all in or all out. But kind of be in that space of being with ourselves and the unknown and letting the relationship unfold and not always knowing the exact outcome of everything. There’s a lot of support that’s needed in that space.

Joy: What do you tell clients when people are just afraid to get into a relationship because they want the guarantee that it’s going to work out? People who are even just afraid of starting a relationship. That beginning anxiety of, “I want it to work out so bad.”

Jessica: I hear you. You’re not alone in that. It’s scary to be vulnerable. There’s no certainty. But I hear that this person has been hurt deeply before, so I hope they are supported around that. I hope that if you’re anxious, you go slow when it comes to intimacy. I think the slower you go with support and the better it is. You should be vulnerable at a slow pace so that it’s happening on both sides, and you can just pace yourself a little. If it’s going too fast or you need to pull back or you need to have a supportive friend be a mirror for you. So just go slow. Simplify it. You’re not walking down the aisle if it’s your first date. You’re just meeting another soul. You’re finding if you even like them. I find that anxious people are trying sometimes to make it so the other person likes them. They forget to realize that they get to pick this person too. It shifts the energy when you start to think, “I’m interviewing this person too, and I can take my time with this interview.”

Joy: That is such a good point. I talk to people a lot too who are really shape shifting to be someone to make the other person like them. Whether they are aware of it or not, that’s really dangerous because you’re completely ignoring your own sense of self to get someone to like you, to validate you, whatever that may be. I’m glad you brought that up because a lot of people do that, and I don’t think they realize it.

Jessica: Yeah, and it’s actually a brilliant strategy that they probably used when they were young. The problem is, they never really are sensing into – I had a client once who was doing that a lot. I was talking about this guy that she was dating. I said to her, “If he showed up in my office door right now with a thousand roses and said he wanted to be with you, how would you feel?” She was like, “I don’t even know if I would pick him. You’re so busy about if he would pick you and the fear of rejection is so [UNSURE 00:22:59.25] basey in you that you haven’t even taken the energy yet to see if you would actually pick him. You really have to flip this around and say, would I pick this person or is the fear of rejection or the need to be chosen driving my behavior?

Joy: Oh my gosh, the fear of rejection or the need to be chosen. I feel like everyone listening hit the brakes when they were driving, like, “Oh my gosh, that’s me.” A lot of people can relate to that because we live in a culture, we want to be chosen. Would you agree, or how do you feel about, kind of how you go throughout life and whether or not you have a tolerance for rejection plays a big role in your life?

Jessica: Well, I mean, I think we go throughout our life unconsciously avoiding certain feelings. So people pleasers, feeling scared of rejection. There are feelings that come up when we feel like we are letting people down or when we are getting rejected that are awful. I think the more you can be with that and the origins of that and understand that and unpack that and build your self-esteem up around that and make sense of that, the less you care. You always hear about it. When people get into their 30’s and then their 40’s and their 50’s, they just start to not give a… you know?

Joy: Yeah.

Jessica: I think you get to a point where you just become more and more yourself and less and less concerned about what other people think. The more you can be your authentic self, the more you realize that the people who are meant for you find you and you will be with them. And the people who don’t jive with you, you won’t care so much. Just let them go. Let them go.

Joy: And it takes a lot of pausing and kind of unplugging sometimes to really evaluate those relationships and take space. I always advise people to take space. Because if you’re in it, you really can’t see what’s happening and I think it’s really important too.

Jessica: Yeah. I think there’s also a lot of projection that can go around. And remember, projection we don’t do consciously. So someone can hurt us and then we can think differently about them. But it’s really, what is the hurt that’s coming up inside of us? So kind of looking at your relationships of, what are they bringing up inside of you? What are they awakening inside of me for me to start getting curious? Because that’s where the catalyst of healing happens.

Joy: As you can tell, I’m a very emotional person. I’m having all these very visceral reactions. So talk about the wounds. Talk a little bit about wounds. And maybe that goes into the nervous system, because I do want to talk some about that, how that impacts our relationships.

Jessica: Yeah. That was an important part for me too. I talk a lot about implicit memories verses explicit. For those of you listening, we have memories that we think of as a movie, and then we have memories that are sensation. Because we are not formed with a fully developed hippocampus, so we store a lot of sensations in our body. The way in which we start to come out in the world and the way we interact, we start to get a felt sense of us. So if there is a lot going on, we can start to feel like something is wrong with us. A baby will turn inward. And then as you are developing, if your parents aren’t letting your sad part show up or your angry parts or if they’re not curious and they’re not seeing all of you, you start to develop these core wounds around, “I’m not enough” or “I’m unlovable” or “I will always be left.” And they are really sensations. They’re in your body actually. They’re not even in your head. Your head is just bringing this narrative up. They are usually a felt sense in your body. People don’t realize that they are felt in your heart brain and your belly brain. Those are very powerful places where a lot of these sensations are sending information up to your brain, and your brain is making up a story in your head. So you can have a core wound of, “I’m always going to be left,” or “My expectation is the connection is going to be broken.” And that can be so entrenched in your story and in your narrative and in your body that you almost recreate it, or you look for a sign of it and then you follow that monkey trail down because you’re so scared of it. I think of a core wound more as a felt sensation that you attach to story too. And you did that to survive. You did that as a way to make sense of your world early on. It’s just unfortunately it drives a lot of your behaviors in the here and now. It’s good to get conscious of those implicit or subconscious core wounds.

Joy: What are your thoughts around the mind-body connection and how you internalize it – I’m trained in EMDR as well. I think you’re an EMDR therapist. So how we internalize those wounds and that trauma and how it shows up, whether we are aware of it or not. The mind-body connection. Talk about that in your practice.

Jessica: 80% of the information is being sent from your body up to your brain. So something is going on and you sense danger, your body is responding before your brain is. 20% is sent back down. We’re moving in a direction where we know that you can’t think your way out of things. You have to actually tune into different centers of your body in a more somatic way. So tuning in to your heart center and tuning into your gut. Being with your body. And your body sensation is actually where the wisdom is. The language of the trauma is sensation. If you think about it, all the really hard moments of your life, there might have been thoughts attached, but the sensation is really what’s powerful. Those are the stored things that are stored in your body. They are happening in the here and now, and your brain is making sense of them or trying to make sense of them in the here and now. But usually they are thematic, and usually they are tied to a core wound or that kind of thing. When I work with clients, I don’t just work with what they are thinking about. I work on connecting that into their body. I don’t use EMDR as much anymore, but more just somatic practices. I’m more about being with the sensation versus the narrative.

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Jessica: That’s like the perfect example because that happens to us so many times and we don’t even realize it. It comes up here and there. Your body is basically saying that was scary before. That could be scary again. So I am going to warn you so we can prevent yourself from experiencing it. And that’s exactly what happens in relationships. This person is looking at their phone or they didn’t text me back. They must not care. I’m warning you. I’m already trying to protect you from abandonment. And the sensation can be really big, and that might not even be what’s going on. But you’re primed to fear that. You’re trying to protect yourself, actually. All of these are protectors. You’re trying to protect yourself from abandonment. Ironically, the protectors lead to more abandonment.

Joy: [sigh] Talk about that. Can you talk a little more about that?

Jessica: So with anxious people, they want to be close, and they want to be in connection. Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with being in connection. But if they feel left, they can get angry, which is normal. They can text excessively. They’ll think about their partners a lot. They’ll vent a lot, which is actually an obsessive quality to keep that energy close. They’ll do a lot of things to stay in connection, whether they are positive or negative, because they are scared to death of the abandonment wound. All of this happens on an unconscious level too, and there is no shame or judgement. So many people, myself included, do this all the time. I think once you start to realize I’m avoiding my biggest fear. Can I bring my biggest fear and some of my pain to someone to help me sort through it so I’m not having all these strategies to avoid it and I can be a little bit free of some of these behaviors. Or if I’m doing some of these behaviors, I can be more conscious and compassionate with myself that I’m doing these behaviors.

Joy: Right. And it’s more than a knowing. Because Lord almighty, we could read a million self-help books. But it’s the feeling yourself through it that sucks. It’s the hardest part.

Jessica: It sucks. People are like, “I want to heal.” I’m like, do you realize that healing is being with the parts of you – it’s hard work. It’s not loving life.

Joy: No, it’s not loving life. I heard someone talking the other day like, “Just choose fear or love.” I get that, that whole premise of everything you do is based out of fear or love. All of these things sound great. They sound great. But the actual work is in the feeling and in the muddiness and in the icky and in the actual going into the war of your emotions and being like, I’ve got to this with this. I’ve got to sit with the unknowing. I’ve got to face the fear of this person I’m dating never texting me back, and I just have to be okay with that. Are you kidding me? That is hard work. And I have to feel that. I want listeners to really think about that. You can listen to self-help podcasts all day. You can listen to this discussion and internalize it in your brain, but actually internalizing it in your heart is a completely different thing. And we acknowledge that. We witness this in people’s journeys every single day when they are doing the work.

Jessica: I love that. You’re so real. I can feel you, and I can tell that you’ve done the work. I’ve done the work. We’re always in the work. It is hard work. We hear you, if you’re listening. This isn’t easy stuff. It’s not like some people have it more figured out than others. If you’re doing the work, it means that you have the right support around you and you’re in it, and we get it.

Joy: I’m going to speak for you, but I’m pretty sure you would agree. We are not in this perfect enlightened state where we’ve figured it out.

Jessica: No, not at all. It’s actually being in a state where you don’t have much figured out, but you know you have the support there if things get scary.

Joy: Yes. Yes, you’ve surrounded yourself with the right people. You do have that ability to be like, this is horrible. I’m scared out of my mind, but I’m not going to run the other way.

Jessica: Right.

Joy: And I know that the ickiness is part of it. And it’s like as much as I wish that I could take all of that away, it’s just a part of life. And I like to explain it to my clients where I’m like, every emotion is part of the rainbow. We’ve got to appreciate all of it. I see your awesome rainbow bookshelf by the way. She has the best rainbow bookshelf organized. It’s helping my Virgo self sooth. It’s amazing. Every single thing, we can’t always be striving for positivity. What the heck is that? Such an aversion to the toxic positivity stuff too.

Jessica: You are music to my ear. So I wrote the book. And if it was as easy as choosing, we would only be choosing love. But I think you can be ware and start to understand your adaptations. I think in that awareness with the right support, your ability to be with more of yourself expands. In that, it’s healing. But spiritual bypassing makes me cringe. When people make you feel like they have it all figured out and they’re blissful all the time. I’m a little weary of that. Even the “high vibes only,” I’m like, what do we do on our shitty days? Aren’t we allowed somewhere on our low days? Come on. We all go through so much stuff. I think being more honest about that and about relationships, like you said. That gives people permission to be in them more, not to think that there’s something wrong with them.

Joy: And that we shouldn’t always be striving for that blissful state. That’s so unrealistic.

Jessica: No. You need to be where you’re at and have support and allow more of yourself to surface. That is the spiritual process, is to letting things surface if you can and not judging yourself, kind of learning about how you adapted. Developing self-compassion.

Joy: I am very visual. So when I describe things to clients sometimes, I’m like, “Just bear with me. This might be a really weird example.” But I envision it kind of like someone just sitting. The emotion is there in front of them, or the bad feeling or whatever it is. And they are just in a field and its space. And they’re like, “We’re just going to hang out here, okay.” There’s nothing around. Almost like safe place in EMDR. But it’s like even your bad emotion or negative emotion, the fearful thing. You have to sit there with it. It can’t touch you. You’re going to be okay. But you do have to coexist. That’s what I envision when I hear you talk about this work.

Jessica: Absolutely. That is dead on. If you can’t coexist with it alone, that’s when you pull in a resource. I talk about internal resources. So if you can’t be in that big feeling alone, that’s where someone externally can be with you, present with you, to help you. And then eventually you can pull that person in as an internal resource. So if it’s too big and it’s too scary and you know that, go to someone who can hold that with you. And then your capacity to hold it within you will expand.

Joy: Like a therapist or a trusted friend?

Jessica: Yeah. It has to be someone kind, nurturing, who is not trying to fix you.

Joy: Yes.

Jessica: We live in a society where everyone wants to fix. Do this. Do that. Blah blah blah, right. But someone who is actually just going to be with you. It’s in the being, the holding that actually is the releasing and giving you the capacity. You know those friends you call and you vent, and they’re like, “Just dump him.” Or do this or do that. That’s not the type of holding I’m saying. And maybe you can tell your friend, I’m not looking for advice. I just want you to validate that this is hard for me or just listen to me or tell me what you hear. But I don’t want to change anything. I just want to feel heard in this moment.

Joy: I want to bring it into my field. My safety field.

Jessica: Yeah.

Joy: So we can hang out here together.

Jessica: Right.

Joy: Is it the Rumi quote? There’s a field, I’ll meet you there… what is it? It’s going to drive me nuts. I’ve got to look it up here. Oh, there it is. “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there.” I feel like we need to have that quote just be with our emotions, our wounds, our everything.

Jessica: It’s so deep.

Joy: If Claire was here, she’d make fun of me so much. She’s the opposite of me in the best possible way. She keeps my feet on the ground a little bit where she’ll be like, “Joy, come back down.”

Jessica: You and I could go –

Joy: We’d be off in the clouds. She’d be like, “Hello?” But I also want to say – you touched on this, and then I want to wrap up a little bit more about your book. But you were mentioning the fixing thing. One of my pet peeves that I really hope – we never want to bash people, but we always want to educate listeners about being an educated consumer. So when I see influencers or people out there who are hanging a shingle and saying, “I can help you fix your body issues,” “I can help you fix your whatever issues,” relationship issues, it really rubs me the wrong way. Because most of the time, it’s kind of a “I’ve got the miracle cure.” And I don’t think that’s the right approach. Perhaps it’s not everybody, but when I see that, I get a little skeptical where my Spidey senses come up. This person doesn’t have a quick fix for you. Life is not a quick fix diet, crash courses in how to reach enlightenment. Nothing is a quick fix. The way to go through this is that really hard tunnel of like, “I’m going in.”

Jessica: I agree with you. I remember at one point, I was like, “I’ve got to go on a spiritual retreat,” and I’ve got to do this. And I remember one of my friends like, “Jess, you could be spiritual today right here. Why don’t you start your spiritual practice tomorrow morning?” Yeah, oh my God, you’re right. I don’t need to go to Tulum to be spiritual. This is years ago. But yeah, you can start right where you are. And right where you are is where all the work is. There’s no final destination but being where you are and allowing that support to come in. That’s the big piece of it that’s in my book for anxious people. Healing doesn’t happen alone. Healing happens in healing relationships. So pulling in the right support. It doesn’t have to be a therapist. And a lot of therapists want to fix. But it has to be someone – I’m spiritual. If you call it in, they will come. But someone who can hold that nonjudgmental space for you and be there for you and help you navigate some of this. Because you don’t have to do any of this alone. It’s not meant to be alone.

Joy: No. And I love what you said, just about how this is not something that is an easy, “do this and you get that.” You can start now. You don’t need that really expensive retreat. I was that person too. I read so many books just kind of hoping to feel okay. And the other thing is, you have to be patient. Do you agree? You have to be patient. When I was in my 20’s, even into my 30’s, now I’m 44 – I don’t think I could have gotten the answer. It does need time. We want it right now. We want to be that… I used to have that idea that I was going to reach happiness at 30 or something, whatever crap.

Jessica: Aw, man.

Joy: You never reach that. You’re constantly evolving. I think that’s just a really important reminder.

Jessica: My 20’s were hell, but you think, oh by this age I’ll have it a little more figured out. And then life throws you another curve ball. You’re like, no, it’s an evolution constantly. I don’t mean to be a downer. It’s actually been an amazing evolution. But it’s not easy. There is no fix. You’re right. There is no fix. It’s a being with, staying curious, allowing the right support to come in, and letting it evolve. I think anxious people want to fix and patience is our hardest thing. Especially when it comes to our partners. We’ll be the first one to go in and do and try and blah, blah, blah. We spend so much energy on our side. It’s actually the pulling back and being patient and allowing that another person to show up that is where our work is. I’m not saying that’s where their work is. I’m saying that’s where our work is.

Joy: I remember I read a lot of Abraham Hicks in my 20’s. One of the tools where I was like, I got to be enlightened. I’ve got to get this perfect – that’s when The Secret blew up and everyone thought that that was the answer to life. But I will never forget – and this has stuck with me. I listened to tons of their talks – was you get to be with a partner, and I love the approach of you should never say – and listeners, I’m not saying this is my true belief, but this resonated with me. I just think it’s a cute way to say it. You should never say “to death do us part, forever and ever.” Just “I like you pretty good, let’s see how this goes.” Instead of this forever and ever and ever, let’s go into relationships being like, I like you pretty good, let’s see how this goes. And also that we should never come at something and say, “You change so I can feel better.” That’s another one that has really stuck with me.

Jessica: Yeah. And I think for anxious people, it’s a hard concept because the feeling of loss and abandonment is so big in them. So the fantasy of forever is their ultimate antidote. So it’s a really hard concept to put the fantasy down that this is forever.

Joy: True, very true.

Jessica: Putting the fantasy down, that’s part of the book. But when you let go of that, you can really be with your partner even more, day to day, in the moment, and trust the unfolding of it. It’s a more intimate way to be, but it’s scarier to live in that way and really allowing yourself to not buy into any absolute and just trusting that you and your partner will evolve together or not.

Joy: Or not. I would imagine the anxious attached feels like you’re standing atop a cliff looking down and butterflies constantly. That’s probably how it feels when you’re going into those emotions of, “I’m really, really scared. This is very scary. I don’t want to fall.”

Jessica: Yeah, I think that’s how they start initially. When you build the internal and external support, your partner actually becomes a part of that. Even when they let you down, if you feel they inherently have your best interests at heart. I think you start to realize that you are more supported than you realize because you’re letting that support in and internalizing it. I think in the beginning, it is really scary. And listen, life can be scary until you learn that in the uncertainty is where the magic happens. That’s easy said, and it’s something that you have to walk in every day, and it’s not so easily done. You’re not alone. It is where the magic happens. It is where the intimacy of life happens. It’s being in the present moment and not knowing always how it is going to unfold.

Joy: Because guess what? We’re all there. We’re all there. Not one of us is exempt from that. We all have to live with the unknowing. I want to say one more thing, and then I promise we’ll wrap up. But when you were talking too about developing and really growing within yourself and how to work through the emotions, I also think about the patience piece when you’re in your 20’s or 30’s or wherever you are in life. If you think back, listeners, to your 20-year-old self. And if you’re in your 30’s or 40’s, this will probably be more applicable. But you think of your 20-year-old self and the experience you had is limited. It truly does take patience that every moment, interaction, friendship, relationship that you have expands your world and expands your ability to put this into practice in a different way. My 20-year-old self was so different, so limited on my views. And I chose to put myself in situations that really expanded. I followed that. I was brave. I did scary things that developed me in ways where I never thought I would, and that gave me that 20/20 vision where I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m so glad I grew in that way. You’re not going to ever using these tools and this growth in the same way. So you’re not going to ever be using these tools and this growth in the same way because you’re truly not the same person. That’s something else to think about is I know it’s hard. I know we want to just have those answers right away. But it does take time. So why not just set that down and live in the present. Okay.

Jessica: Yeah, you are deep.

Joy: I’m sweating.

Jessica: I normally don’t meet that many people that can go as deep as me. But yeah, I think it’s hard to set that down and be in the present. I think, again, if you can do that, the gifts are really there. It’s better than running and running and running. And again, that’s just a fear response.

Joy: Yeah. So final question and then we can wrap up and tell listeners where they can buy your book, where they can find you. How to become yourself, your full self and where can people – people love a starting point. What is something people can do today to start that process or even just explore this process? What would that look like?

Jessica: I have this exercise in my book. It’s called adopting your full self.

Joy: Oh awesome. I love exercises.

Jessica: Yeah, pulling some photos from childhood and looking at the traits of yourself that maybe you don’t like or despise. For me, I was a heavier 13-year-old or whatever. Starting to sit with those photos and starting to adopt and accept the parts of yourself that you don’t like and realize that those parts are there for a reason. It’s in the acceptance. It’s kind of like shadow work of, it’s okay. It’s okay that you were dorky. It’s okay that you were this. It’s okay that you were shy. It’s okay that you are not a good reader. All those parts of you are okay. If you can start to be more okay with what you perceived or learned from society that wasn’t okay. But if you can try to accept those parts in you. I use this example. I have this picture of myself when I was 13. Before I did a lot of my work, I would look at it and I would see so much shame. I was like, oh my God, this chunky 13-year-old. I was the last one to develop in my class, and my best friend could have been on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And I looked at the photo and I wanted to just look away. The more and more work that I did on myself, now I look at her and I just want to hug her. I love her so much. She’s allowed to be there. She’s allowed to show up. I don’t have to hide from her or shove her down anywhere. So I think if you can go to those parts and realize where did your life become contingent? Where did you have to shove yourself down? Where did you learn this wasn’t an okay part to have or an okay feeling to have? Start to embrace it and explore it. Eventually you’ll want to run and hug it, rather than shy away from. And that takes work.

Joy: Yeah. I’m just envisioning, oh man, I bet a lot of people are tearing up over that. Giving your younger self that love or examining the pain that you went through because I think that’s really, really hard. It’s hard. Okay. Well this was beyond lovely for me to have this conversation with you. We can start our own podcast. I love the work that you’re doing, not only as a therapist but just as a human in the world wanting to help people. I think that’s amazing what you’re doing. Tell our listeners where they can find your book. And if they want to follow you on social media or your website.

Jessica: I think we gave you a link for pre-order. There’s some free stuff that you might want to throw in there. But you can find my book on Amazon. Anxiously Attached: Becoming More Secure in Life and Love. Beselffull.com is my website. There’s a pre-order page, so if you put your information there, you get some meditations and a free course on dating. And then my Instagram is @jessicabaumlmhc. That’s licensed mental health counselor (LMHC). You can find me on there. Sign up for my newsletter and stay connected. I usually send a letter out once or twice a month with some valuable information on relationships.

Joy: We will link all of that in our podcast notes as well. I can’t wait for this episode to come out because I know everyone is going to be messaging us. We’ll make sure all of your links are on there. Now, you’re licensed in the state of Florida, but you also do a coaching business. Is there anything people need to know if they want to work with you specifically?

Jessica: I’m not really taking new clients at this moment. But I have five therapists on my team. We work as a team, as a system, so I’m involved in every case and sometimes I’ll take a new client on. But I work with every client that we take. But my caseload has been pretty full for a while. So I might be taking clients on over the summer. But if you do want to work with me, everyone on my team is trained in attachment theory and does similar work and is trained in imago. We work as a team, so you can come to me, and I’ll be part of that. Or maybe get me if my caseload goes down a little bit.

Joy: If they’re lucky. Okay. I understand that too, and you have to set boundaries for yourself because that’s important for therapists. So listeners, thanks again for tuning in this week to This is Joy and Claire. You can find us at thisisjoyandclaire.com. We are on social media, Instagram @joyandclaire_. Check out our new website because we just did a rebrand, and it’s really, really cute. Thank you guys again. We’ll talk to you next week.