Underrated TV characters, Joy’s love for Selling Sunset and Married at First Sight, Claire is on her way to Mexico, Miles wins a karate tournament, Joy gives a Joe update, and Joy opens up about her previous job ending.
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This is Joy & Claire Episode 124: Is It Helpful or Hurtful?
Episode Date: April 28, 2022
Transcription Completed: June 8, 2022
Audio Length: 63:09 minutes
Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.
Claire: And this is Claire.
Joy: Welcome back. It’s almost May.
Claire: It’s gonna be May.
Joy: So great.
Claire: It never gets old. Never. I will never not repost that meme. It’s my favorite.
Joy: Do you know the origin on that? Like who started it?
Claire: Are you kidding?
Joy: Oh no. Who came up with the meme of it?
Claire: Oh, no. I don’t know. They should win a prize. An internet prize. I think any time you create something on the internet that is still relevant more than five years after you created it, you should win a prize.
Joy: I agree.
Claire: Also, we’re recording this on Monday, and today is April 25, which is light jacket day.
Joy: It’s the best. I love that movie so much.
Claire: “All you need is a light jacket.” I think I might try to do a reel later about the light jacket.
Joy: That’s so great. She’s one of the best characters.
Claire: She really is. “That’s a tough one. I have to say April 25th.”
Joy: If you think about the people who have really nailed characters, she’s such a good one.
Claire: Okay, let’s have a conversation quickly about underrated non-main characters.
Joy: Oh. Don’t even get me started.
Claire: I am getting you started. That’s the purpose of the question.
Joy: I have two off the top of my head. If anybody is new to Abbott Elementary, the sitcom. It’s on ABC. It is written by Quinta Brunson. She is a comedian. I listened to an interview she did on NPR with Terry Gross. I believe the inspiration was her mom was a teacher. It’s a group of teachers, and they find themselves in this Philadelphia public school. Not a lot of money. So how they help the students succeed. But it is shot very much Office-style where you have people looking at the camera shooting their head. Really, really, really funny. The main character is Quinta Brunson’s character. She’s a teacher. But the comedian who plays the principal, her name is Janelle James. Her character is Ava Coleman. I can’t explain it. There’s no words to explain how funny she is. It is top notch, probably one of my top five hidden gem characters. If you have not watched that show, please watch it. They do air the show on Hulu if you don’t watch it on ABC. That is one.
Claire: My favorite hidden gem character – it isn’t really a hidden gem. I feel like this whole media is a hidden gem. Is Hank Azaria’s character in Birdcage.
Joy: I know you do love Birdcage.
Claire: “I do not wear shoes because they make me fall down.”
Joy: And then were we texting recently about the Father of the Bride?
Claire: Yes, we did. I was in a corporate training where somebody instead of say “advocacy” was say “ad-VOC-acy.” All it made me think of was Martin Short’s character.
Joy: Oh God. I love when he’s like, “Let’s talk about the menu.” And Steve Martin is like, “The menu… the menu…”
Claire: “Every party has a pooper. That’s why we invited you, party pooper George Banks.”
Joy: [laughing] George Banks. I love him so much. My favorite though, [high pitched sounds].
Claire: [high pitched sounds] He’s so good.
Joy: He’s so good. But let’s talk also about how he was playing a gay character back when gay characters weren’t very mainstream. It’s so interesting to look back now. I just thought that was the best character ever. Anyway, you could go down many trails.
Claire: Right. I mean, same thing with the Birdcage.
Claire: Although, it was supposed to be drag, which I think they did. I mean, that whole movie, I love it so much.
Joy: But even on Modern Family, they have straight people playing a gay character. It was in the late 80’s, early 90’s. It was a different time. And very flamboyant. And you think of My Best Friend’s Wedding where Hugh Jackman – is it Hugh Jackman that was her best friend? No, no, no, not the one who was getting married.
Claire: Was that Hugh Jackman?
Joy: No, it wasn’t Hugh Jackman. Who am I thinking of? He looks like it. He’s the British guy.
Claire: Yeah. He’s Hugh Jackman-esque.
Joy: Rupert Everett. Okay, Rupert Everett. I stand really corrected. Okay. But anyway, we could talk movies all day long. I’m going to do one more just so we can move on from this. But huge fan of the HBO Max series Barry that is co-written by Bill Hader. We all love Bill Hader. It is amazing, amazing show. Just watch it. You can immediately get into it. I don’t hang in for many shows, except for Severance. That is one show that I am glad I hung in with. The only reason I did is because Busy Philipps on her podcast, Busy Philipps is Doig Her Best, she is a big content slob. She doesn’t just watch anything. And she was like, “Severance is the best show on TV.” I was like, well damn it, I need to go back and watch Severance now. Because I really trust her judgement. Anyway. She is correct. It is the best show on TV. Barry, the character that plays NoHo Hank, Anthony Carrigan, can’t even. If you just want to laugh, it is a very dark comedy. But his character is un-freaking-believable. I get so excited when people create characters that you’re just like, oh my gosh, where did that come from? They are so likable. Even in this very dark comedy, he cracks me up. So great. So great. Alright, that got me very excited about shows.
Claire: I just love that. I’m trying to think – as you guys know, I don’t watch a lot of TV or a lot of shows or a lot of movies that aren’t like kids, just for lack of time. So also my examples are from long ago. From ten years ago or longer. I’m just trying to think. The last series I really watched from start to finish was 30 Rock, which I don’t think there’s been a new – I think the last season of 30 Rock was in 2013?
Joy: Yeah, but the page character. What’s his name?
Joy: Yeah, Kenneth. Unbelievable.
Claire: Oh, he’s like a main character.
Joy: Really? Okay.
Claire: Because it’s such a long running sitcom, there’s a lot of main characters.
Joy: That’s true. That’s very true.
Claire: But every time I rewatch it, I have a different favorite character. I think that Alec Baldwin’s mom in that one could really qualify as a solid overlooked character.
Joy: We could go off on different episodes of Arrested Development even.
Claire: Oh my gosh. And every season of Arrested Development.
Joy: The guy whose eyebrows keep falling off.
Claire: Lucille 2.
Joy: Lucille 2. [laughing]
Claire: Her vertigo, that was just the most genius stroke of character.
Joy: Remember when they fixed her kitchen and they moved it?
Claire: Yeah, she kept running into the island. Or what about Julia Louis-Dreyfus’ character who was the blind judge who just pretended to be blind.
Claire: And then her dog is actually blind. Spoiler alert, in case you haven’t seen Arrested Development. So good.
Joy: Oh my gosh, that show is so good. It’s so good. Okay, well speaking of shows, let me just do a quick preface to the next two weeks. Claire and I, we’ve got a lot going on in the month of May. We are going to do the next two weeks after this episode airs, we are doing two episodes with our friends, Tina DeGraff and JK McLeod. Next week will be Tina. The week after will be JK. And we just wanted to catch up with some friends because we can’t pre-record a batch of episodes. Even though we record every single week, for Claire and I to do multiple episodes in a week, it would just get really boring. We’re at our best with once a week. We don’t have that much content. We could probably do it if we had – anyway. So we are doing a chat with friends for the next couple of weeks. Please listen to those episodes. We do get into it with Tina around Selling Sunset. We talk about body image and body standards. It’s a really good discussion. And it really is more of a chat with us with our friends. It’s not so much an interview style. But we’re just kind of talking with another person because we think other people are interesting too. So listen to those episodes in the coming weeks because I have a lot to say about Selling Sunset.
Claire: My friend Elizabeth today was telling me that she watched the whole season of Selling Sunset this weekend because she was sick and she was like, “I don’t think I’ve ever in my life sat in bed and watched a whole season of anything on my phone.” Then she said her husband asked what she was watching and she was like, “Oh, it’s a real estate show.” And he’s like, “This is not a real estate show. You’re not learning real estate investing.”
Joy: Oh yeah. And there wasn’t as much real estate in this past season, which the love of the show is the houses are so beautiful. It really is amazing to watch these houses. But you get everything. You get drama. You get beautiful outfits. You get beautiful people. You have LA. The B-roll of LA. Any show that has a B-roll of Los Angeles, I’m in. You got me. I don’t need anything else. This season is a little less real estate and a little more Christine drama. Scott was watching this with me. I know I’ve said this before. Any time I watch a show that’s reality brainless TV, I think he gets it by now 14 years in, 15 years in of being together. But I think he used to be like, “You’re smarter than this. Why do you watch this stuff?” Because I do emotions all day long. And I cannot come home and watch something that requires a lot of emotions. Where Scott, that’s not how he operates. When I need a show, I need something I can easily tune out with. I know I’ve said that before. It’s so funny. He finally gets it. He makes fun of me less. But every once in a while, he’ll chime in. When I was watching Selling Sunset, he was like, “Is there anyone that’s really nice on this show?” I was like, no. That’s the point. Everyone is horrible.
Claire: They are all meanies.
Joy: Everyone is horrible. But the shoes. The shoes are great. Real estate is great. It’s just eye candy, and it’s so brainless. And then I got into Married at First Sight, which my friend from Montana in grad school was like, “You would love this show if you like brainless reality TV.” I did start watching it, and it’s 20 episodes long. I think it’s on Lifetime, and they just kind of need content. They could easily do that show in 5-8 episodes. But it’s actually pretty interesting. It is brainless TV. But there is this one couple that – so the premise is that they have matchmaker people evaluate hundreds and hundreds of candidates, and then they match people together, and then they get them married at first sight. Which all of their family is like, why don’t you just date? Why do you have to get married? And it’s like, because it’s reality. There’d be no fun drama if the just started dating.
Claire: Otherwise, it’s just a dating app.
Claire: Now you’re just on eHarmony.
Joy: Exactly. So there’s this couple. I think it’s Zach and Megan maybe. She’s all in, but he’s one of those guys that’s very good looking and he knows it. Way too into his looks type of thing. Washboard abs. Very tan. But seems like a down to earth guy, but he’s really not. And the whole time, he’s definitely not into it. But he keeps saying things like, he’s like, “I’m just not attracted to her yet.” Very much trying to talk himself into it. I’m like, did you not know what show you signed up for, dude?
Claire: He’s acting like he thinks he’s on The Bachelor.
Joy: Yeah. And he’s still in it. It’s almost like he’s playing it up for the cameras because he knows that he’s going to look like a total asshole because he’s like, “I’m just not attracted to her. Peace, I’m out. I’m not staying here for eight more weeks.” But you can tell he’s just trying to drag it out for eight weeks to just stay on the show, and it’s so intriguing to watch. All the matchmaker people give him the side eye where they are like, what did you just say? Do you understand what show you’re on, dude? So that’s a little entertaining.
Claire: So he’s married to her but not attracted to her?
Claire: So they are already married.
Joy: Yeah, they get married.
Claire: And everyone is like, you don’t just get to give it a couple more weeks. You’re going to stay married.
Joy: Yeah. After they get married, they live together and go through this whole thing of getting to know each other. So they are supposed to put them up in this apartment where they live together in neutral space for eight weeks. And then he chose not to live there. He’s like, no, I’m going to go live at my house. We’re like, that’s not the point of this show.
Claire: So he’s just trying to become TikTok famous?
Joy: He’s trying to be TikTok famous with his washboard abs. Oh, it’s so funny to watch. Because everything that comes out of his mouth, we’re like, buddy, we ain’t buying it. Bail. Cut your losses.
Claire: I think you did not understand what you were signing up for.
Joy: It’s way too much that we just talked about Married at First Sight. Whatever. Wherever we’re going with this, you’re going to be going to Mexico. You’re going surfing.
Claire: My surf trip is coming up not this weekend, but I leave next weekend. Which is crazy. Crazy. I’m going to be gone when you listen to our episode with Tina. I’m going to be in Mexico full of tacos and ocean water from swallowing so much water while I try not to drown.
Joy: Tina was really worried about you. She’s like, “Don’t even eat ice, Claire.”
Claire: She’s like, “Do not eat the ice. Do not open your mouth in the shower. Do not pull a Sex in the City movie.” And that could really happen to me. I have a sensitive system. Last thing you want –
Joy: Charlotte opens her mouth and then she gets diarrhea. [laughing]
Claire: The last thing you want is diarrhea instantly to hit you while you’re sitting on a surfboard in the ocean in your wet suit. What do you do in that scenario?
Joy: You just got to let it happen.
Claire: In your wet suit?
Joy: What else are you going to do? Take the wet suit off? It would take you two hours to take it off in the water.
Claire: That’s the problem. In the water, you can’t.
Joy: It’s happening. It’s happening.
Claire: Oh my gosh. I can’t imagine that. It’s not going to happen.
Joy: No, it’s not.
Claire: I’ve been to Mexico plenty of times and I’ve never gotten sick. It’s going to be fine.
Joy: I was going to say, aren’t there pills or antibiotics you can take as a precaution with you? Maybe?
Claire: I don’t know. I don’t think so. Who knows? I’m mostly worried about getting Covid while I’m down there because you don’t have to wear a mask on planes anymore, which is disgusting. I don’t think I’m ever going to travel without a mask again. Planes have always been disgusting. I don’t even care if Covid had never been invented. I wish that masks had always and would always be required on planes.
Claire: I don’t want to breathe stranger air.
Joy: People are so gross. Let’s argue that there has been articles that I can’t quote off the top of my head, but I have seen articles where they’re like, actually cabin air is really great because they have these great filters and it just circulates – I don’t care. We are in an enclosed space with strangers that are disgusting.
Claire: This is recycled air.
Claire: And the person in front of me is sneezing and farting at the same time.
Joy: So gross.
Joy: People are so gross.
Claire: So I will still be wearing an N95 on the plane. That’s what I’m more worried about. You don’t need a test to go into Mexico, but you need a test to get back into the States. And then we’re moving. So it’s just a lot in the next couple of weeks. If I get stuck in Mexico and can’t come home to move, it’s going to be a problem.
Joy: Tell Brandon to call me. Do you know that Brandon is your handler when you’re not awake to record? Do you know that?
Claire: That he texts you and is like, “Claire is still asleep. She might be late.” Yeah, I did know that.
Joy: It’s really cute. And there’s been a handful of times where he somehow sees it on our shared calendar. He’ll be texting me like, “Joy, I know you’re supposed to record in 5 minutes, but Claire is still sleeping.” Every time, you get up and you’re there.
Claire: I rally.
Joy: But it’s almost funny. How does he not know after all these years that you always are up and there? He still will text me like, “I don’t think she’s going to make it today.”
Claire: Aw, Brandon.
Joy: It’s really cute. It’s really funny. He is, he’s your handler. “I don’t think she’s going to make it, Joy.”
Claire: The calendar says 8 o’clock. It’s 7:57. She’s still in bed.
Joy: But imagine, you always make it on time.
Claire: Then whenever we were recording with Tina, I was down to the wire. And then my Zoom restarted.
Claire: This is a problem.
Joy: He used to think you had a migraine.
Claire: I did have a migraine.
Joy: So then I just waited a beat. I think I actually missed his first text because I was signing on. And then he was like, “Never mind, she’s up.”
Claire: Here she is. Have I ever just flat out missed? I think I’ve missed one. Maybe one time we were recording – I want to say we were even re wording with someone else, and I just completely missed it.
Joy: I don’t know. I can’t remember. And if it was, it was because you were out of the house gone. It wasn’t like you were at home and just forgot. You were out of the house doing something and maybe swapped calendars. But I don’t remember it.
Joy: So traveling a lot. And if you don’t come back, tell Brandon he can call me, and I can help move your stuff. But I am going on a trip in a couple weeks. I can’t say where yet because it’s a surprise for somebody.
Claire: It’s not like a secret celebrity surprise.
Joy: Definitely not that. It’s not like, “Oh guys, I have some big news for you. Just wait.” No, it’s not like that. It’s just a surprise something that I don’t even think the people that are involved listen to this. But in the event that they do, I’m not going to say anything. So I’m traveling. And then we do think bone marrow is happening in May. So that’s still there. So there’s a lot going on in May. Then I’m going to a wedding in June. I’m going to be in Arizona for a while. And then Cadet might graduate.
Claire: Oh yeah, Cadet. I had this great realization the other day that I’m firmly out of that phase of my life where I have to go to weddings. One of the gals on my team, she’s in her mid-20’s. She has like five weddings this summer. I’m like, oh, I remember that.
Joy: I remember that too. It was right around the two years that Scott and I were dating and getting married were like wedding, wedding, wedding. We went to so many weddings in one summer. But this is my cousin. My mom is the oldest of five, so it’s the youngest brother’s son. That’s why we’re so different in age. But he’s getting married. It will be fun because it’s a rare occasion now because all the cousins and kids are grown. There’s not many opportunities for people to go to weddings and have all our family together.
Claire: That is fun.
Joy: It will be really nice. We’re really excited.
Claire: Cool. Okay, so this past weekend, Miles had a karate tournament on Saturday. And I wanted to talk about it because I feel like this might be a shared experience with other parents who are listening. Or anyone really who has a kid in their life who they are in a position of caretaking or mentoring. Prior to the tournament, I had no idea what to expect. This is Miles’ first real tournament. We had done one internal tournament with just his karate school because it was still kind of in Covid. So it was really more of, here is how you run it through, and you do your thing and you do your form and then you leave. This was the first time that Miles had participated in a tournament where kids from other karate schools were there. So I had no idea what to expect. Let me paint this picture. Eight months ago before Miles started karate, we wouldn’t have been able to even get him into a karate uniform. The pants would have been too stiff. His first class, he went out on the mat and he immediately started crying because he was so embarrassed and so overwhelmed. It has taken him an incredible amount of work to get to the point that he is at. We take him to every single class that we can, so he ends up going sometimes four or five times a week. It’s billed. You can kind of go unlimited. Unlimited is a strong word because it’s also divided by your belt level. So we take him as much as we can because he has to have the exposure. It has to be part of his routine because otherwise he will overthink it and he will freak himself out. There have been days – even still, we will have days where if something goes wrong during class, he will just melt down. His range of tolerance for adversity is even smaller than most other six-year-olds that I know. To where his range of acceptable emotions is very small, and it’s been getting so much bigger, and I really that is in huge part due to him being in karate where he can have this very safe container in which to have these experiences where he messes up or he gets something wrong in front of people or he gets called out for not paying attention or doing something that he wasn’t supposed to be doing. Then can turn around and still be accepted and a part of the group. So him going to this tournament was a really big deal. And I also had no idea how he was going to react. Because I thought we are going to get into this high school gym completely full of strangers, and he is going to freak out. So I had him literally practice his form. So form is like a routine. It’s like a karate name for a routine. Every belt has one or a couple of routines that go with it. I literally had him practice his form almost 200 times.
Joy: Woah. At home?
Claire: At home. Over the past three weeks.
Claire: Because I just knew when he got there, he was going to be so freaked out that if he didn’t have this completely muscle memory memorized, it was not going to happen.
Joy: Yeah. So how did you break it up? Just out of curiosity.
Claire: Every time he practiced one, he would earn one minute of iPad time.
Joy: Oh. That’s genius.
Claire: He’s still only a high orange belt, which is pretty low in the ranks. So the form itself only takes a minute. So for every time you do your form, you get a minute of iPad time. So at night, he would do 10 or 15, and then he would get 10 or 15 minutes of iPad time.
Joy: Perfect. Oh my gosh, that’s genius.
Claire: It worked out great. Because we don’t do a lot of iPad time for him. So he gets there. And again, I don’t know what I was expecting. But I was texting Jess and Joy, and I was like, okay, what do you do when you are in a situation where your kid is so psyched, so hopped up on the tournament juice, thinks he is going to win first place, and you think there’s a chance he’s not even going to place.
Joy: You were pretty confident. I think your exact words were, “I’m pretty confident he’s not even getting close.”
Claire: I have no idea what to expect. I’m afraid he’s going to freak out. I have been watching him practice this so many times, and I know where it’s at. It’s not performance ready in my mind. He’s six. He’s doing great, but it’s not sharp, crisp.
Joy: If you’re sitting there watching these other kids and it’s a tournament, you’re like, surely there’s someone here who is a karate kid.
Claire: I mean, I’m like Monica from Cheer watching people like, that stance could have been a little deeper. But I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s how they judge six-year-olds.
Joy: You don’t know if Monica is there.
Claire: Monica could be there. Miles is not going to make mat. So I’m texting Jess and Joy and I’m like, what do we do with this situation? Because it feels very counterintuitive – and not even counterintuitive. It feels like there’s two extremes that you’re trying to communicate at the same time.
Joy: One is like, yes, you’re going to do it.
Claire: You’re doing great. You’re going to kill it. You’re going to be awesome. And the other one is like, it’s okay if you just get out there and your brain falls out.
Joy: Do your best.
Claire: Yeah, do your best. All that matters is that you do your best. But if something happens, that’s okay too. And winning is not important. Unless you win, in which case good job. Don’t get your hopes up, but it’s okay to be excited. I think a lot of us as kids really got one or the other. Either our parents really pressured us into if you don’t win, then you suck. Or the opposite, which you were saying, your parents never getting excited about anything you did because they didn’t want to get your hopes up.
Joy: Yeah, my mom did not want me to be disappointed. My whole career of sports in junior high and high school was cheer and dance. Any time there was a tryout. And it frustrated me to no end. My aunt would always be like, “You’re going to get it. You’re totally going to get it.” And my mom would always be like, “Well, you know, just don’t be disappointed.” She would always say something like, “Well, you just never know. Just don’t get your hopes up.” Because if she would have said, “You’re going to get it” and I didn’t get it, she never wanted us to be disappointed. But it’s worse. Because either way it’s overconfidence and that parent who is a pro athlete kind of parent that’s like, “You have to be the very best or nothing.” It’s such a weird thing to deal with.
Claire: I just talked to Miles beforehand the days leading up to it saying, you’ve practiced a lot, but we don’t know how much the other kids have practiced. Maybe someone else has practiced 300 times. And maybe there’s another kid out there that’s a little older than you. So I tried to prep him for it. So if you are someone out there who has a lot of experience with having kids in competitive things, especially mediocre kids. I don’t want to hear from people who are like, oh yeah –
Joy: My all-star athlete.
Claire: My all-star athlete. I just want to hear how do you prep your mediocre kid. Which is fine.
Joy: Give them the confidence.
Claire: Right. But then still make it seem like a big deal when the do win, but you don’t’ want to overly get excited when they win because you don’t want them to think that’s expected or that you wouldn’t have been excited if they didn’t win. Do you see what I mean? There’s just a lot going on here. Am I overthinking this?
Joy: No. Because there’s so many things going on here, and I don’t know which way to go.
Claire: It’s very complex. In the end, he did win.
Joy: Which is amazing. He looked so excited.
Claire: He was so excited. Here’s what I’m going to be honest about. I hope that no one else who ever goes to karate with Miles hears this. And how would they know. But it had less to do with him being totally dialed and more to do with the other kids being really less dialed.
Joy: They didn’t get the iPad equation.
Claire: They didn’t get the 200 minutes of iPad time.
Joy: They didn’t put in the 10,000 hours.
Claire: You know. Their mom’s not a crazy person. Now, not to make another Cheer reference, but am I turning into Gabi’s mom?
Joy: Yeah. You’re turning into that momager.
Claire: Right. I don’t want to be a momager.
Joy: Yeah, you’re not a momager.
Claire: Anyways, so he did win. He did so great. He was so, so excited. It was a small group of people. He won over like 10 other kids.
Joy: I love how you’re like, it’s less that he was super dialed and more that they were not as dialed.
Claire: Half the kids got out there and just stopped halfway through their form and didn’t know what to do.
Joy: They got intimidated. It’s a lot a pressure.
Claire: When you’re six, it’s a lot to memorize. And there’s a lot of turning. They all involve a lot of turning. Turn to the left. Turn to the back. Turn back to the front. So it’s really easy to get mixed up and then all of the sudden you’re facing the back when you’re supposed to be facing the front. Oh no, where do I turn?
Joy: Yeah, I think of the ballerina class when the little girls are just turning in circles and one walks off stage.
Claire: Yeah, that was these kids. And they’re supposed to at the beginning do this whole thing where they have these little things they say. “Judges. Proudly representing my karate school. This is my name. This is my instructor.” Miles just got out there and was screaming at the top of his lungs. I wish I had taken a video. But I was so nervous for him that I didn’t take a video. So anyway. It was so cute. He did a great job. He did a better job than everyone else.
Joy: That’s so cute. I love it.
Claire: Please give me your tips. Not that we don’t think Miles is going to grow up and be a champion karate person… ninja? I don’t know. What is the noun?
Joy: He’s a ninja.
Claire: Martial artist. But I also want to know what to do if he is not.
Claire: How do you support your mediocre kid? Every team needs a middle of the pack.
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Claire: Okay, so another thing I wanted to talk about today as my surfing trip approaches is feeling really nervous about going on this. If you’ve been with us since our Girls Gone WOD days, I feel like you guys will probably remember me talking about always having this deep insecurity about being the slowest one in the group. That I don’t ever want to be the person who is holding up everybody on the hike. Let alone the run. Let alone the workout. I’m starting to have this creep up about this surfing trip. Even though I know that it’s supposed to be a beginner trip. And even though I know that objectively I am in okay shape. Middle of the pack.
Joy: And you’ve been working out a lot.
Claire: I’ve been working out a lot. And I’ve been doing my little renegade rows. I’ve been doing my chest flies. And my dumbbell rows.
Joy: Getting that core stability so you can just hop up on that board.
Claire: I’ve been doing my Russian twists. I’ve been doing my toes to bar, my knee raises I should say. I have been trying hard. And I’ve been doing my 200 minutes of iPad time. I think that there can be a perception for when people do things like this. You take a big trip or you sign up for a big race that you feel completely confident about it or that the emotion you’re having is just excitement and being psyched. But I’m also so nervous. It reminds me of when I did my NOLS trip that I talk about a lot. If you guys don’t know what NOLS is, it stands for National Outdoor Leadership School. It’s like Outward Bound if you know what Outward Bound is. I did this month-long backpacking and canoeing trip in the Yukon when I was in college. It turned out to be one of the single most influential experiences of my life. But I cried on the plane on the way there because I was so freaked out. And then when I went to Argentina to study abroad, I threw up on the plane because I was so nervous.
Claire: Yeah. I had never done anything like that before. And I had to go and speak Spanish. I had never been to another country completely by myself before.
Joy: Yeah, that is scary. Sometimes I look back and when I moved to France for three months and I was 21. How the hell did I have the balls to do that?
Claire: You just didn’t know any better.
Joy: And we didn’t have phones. I couldn’t communicate with my parents, with anybody unless they called the house I was staying at. Oh my gosh, how did I get around? How did I get to Lille? I don’t know. How did I get there?
Claire: When I went to Argentina, their international airport and their regional national airport are not the same airport. You fly into one airport, you get on a bus to another complete airport on the other side of Buenos Aires, and get on another plane. How did I figure that out without a phone?
Joy: Exact same thing. How did I even get to the school? How did the person find me to take me to my host family’s house? How did I do anything? How did I figure out the train? It’s crazy to me. We’re dinosaurs.
Claire: You just gave yourself a lot more time.
Joy: Yes. But as far as emotionally, I understand why you’re nervous. That feeling jumping into something so wildly unknown is a lot.
Claire: Yeah. And that I’m going to be in a group and they all are here to do this athletic thing.
Joy: Do you know how many people?
Claire: I don’t think it’s very big. I think it’s only five or six.
Joy: That’s good. That’s good.
Claire: Except the other main activity is yoga. They’re going to make me do yoga every day.
Joy: You’ve done yoga before. We did yoga in Costa Rica.
Claire: I know, but only one time. And there were monkeys.
Joy: There were monkeys. Which looking back is so great.
Claire: So great. I do yoga occasionally. It’s not like I’ve never done yoga. I get roped into a yoga class probably 2-6 times a year. It’s fine. But I don’t know. These are the thoughts that come into my head when I start to worry about it. I bought a wetsuit. What if I get there and they laugh at my wetsuit? Because I don’t know these things. I live in Colorado. What if I get really sunburned? And I want to wear a hat when I’m surfing, and what if they laugh at me because I want to wear a hat. These are the things I’m worried about being judged for. I’m a grown-ass woman and I worry about these things. So I just wanted to say them out loud. Because not only does it make them feel silly – now, I’m like, okay Claire, you don’t need to worry about other people laughing at you for wearing a hat. You can wear a hat.
Joy: You can absolutely wear a hat.
Claire: Even if it gets washed away in the ocean. Maybe bring a couple hats.
Joy: As long as you don’t show up wearing jeans, I think you’re fine.
Claire: I mean, let’s hope so.
Joy: It’s so hot there is what I’m saying.
Claire: Wow, let’s talk about jeans. I was going to pack jeans. Should I not pack jeans? What are you saying?
Joy: I think only Colorado people get this joke. The joke around “Trump skis in jeans.” Yeah, three’s a bumper sticker. Colorado people get it, “Trump skis in jeans.” I showed it to one of my friends in Arizona and she was like, “I don’t get it.” I was like, oh, you don’t understand that you don’t ski in jeans.
Claire: Right. So do you remember a couple months ago. We did a Q&A on Instagram, and they asked a question, what do you wear your first day of skiing. I was very specific. Here’s what you wear. Pants go over the top of your boots. Your gloves go inside your coat. You don’t have to wear a hat under your helmet. You can just wear a helmet. Here are the things you need to know to not look like a dummy. Don’t carry your skis on your shoulder. Don’t try to hold it like a bundle of firewood. But those are the things that you wouldn’t know. That’s the position that I’m getting myself into of knowing that I’m going to do something that looks dumb. Which is okay. Looking dumb is fine.
Joy: Now that you say that, there’s plenty of times that we’ve gone to Hawaii over the course of our lifetime when we were going to Hawaii so much, I think that there’s been plenty of times when I have not signed up for something because I’m worried about being judged and being the tourist. Like paddle boarding with a group. I’m like, I just want to go paddle board by myself. But even then, I’ll get embarrassed going over to paddle board. I have a weird fear of looking like a tourist. I think that’s another piece of you going into something so unknown and learning something so new. Brene Brown talks about this a lot. She does not like to be a beginner at something. The learning is such a vulnerable place where you have to make mistakes and you have to be coached, all that stuff. But it’s beginner, so I’m assuming everyone in your class is in the same spot. No one is going to show up and be –
Claire: Like ripping.
Joy: Like Laird Hamilton.
Claire: If Laird Hamilton comes, I’m getting Covid and staying in Mexico.
Joy: Yeah, because he’s probably going to be with his wife Gabby Reece. Please show me your ways because they are beautiful.
Claire: In case you guys don’t know, Laird Hamilton was my very normal average high school crush. Didn’t everyone have a crush on Laird Hamilton?
Joy: It still kills me that you had posters of surfing.
Claire: This is my thing. This has been my dream. Maybe that’s why I feel nervous.
Joy: That’s fair.
Claire: This is 16-year-old Claire talking. I was obsessed. So pray for me.
Joy: Please pray.
Claire: It’s going to be great. I’m going to do great. It’s going to be wonderful, and I’m not going to eat the ice. And I’m going to wear a hat. Okay, give us a quick update on Joe.
Joy: I can’t wait to hear how it goes. Joe is doing very well. He is growing like crazy. We just had his first appointment at the vet. Puppies get a series of shots to make sure they have all their vaccines. You have to do it in certain increments, so he had his second round of shots with us. He weighed in at almost 21 pounds. When we got him, he was 11 pounds. So in three weeks he doubled his weight. And he’s so good. He’s just a very chill – nothing has really changed about his personality. He’s a very chill, sweet dog. It’s so fun to see puppies mature. I know I’ve said this before. Every week you have a different dog because they change so fast. So just this past weekend, I was taking him on a walk. And normally we go on very short walks because he’s scared and really nervous. And this time, I have a 20-minute loop I take JT on, and he did the whole loop with us. He did great, and he was so good. He was looking up at me and giving me eye contact. Normally he would do starts and stops. He would stop and look around, take in all the noises, and then he’d start again, but then he’d stop, take a look around, take in all the noises. And now he’s just going, so that’s cool to see because his confidence is building. And very selfishly it makes my life easier because then I don’t have to take two separate walks a day of taking JT and then taking Joe and then taking JT. So that’s been really fun. He did his first puppy class a couple weeks ago. He did great. People always ask me who watches your dogs when you travel. Most of the time we have people in our Canine Companions family watch because they know the commands, they know how to handle these dogs. And especially with puppies, you want to keep the training consistent. Even though we’re not going to be gone that long, it’s just easier. So people who are in the Canine Companions family watch these dogs. So yeah, he’s doing really well.
Claire: Yay Joe. And is JT still doing well?
Joy: Yeah, they’re actually getting along better. Not that they were ever not getting along. But at first, JT was avoidant. He just avoided him. He wasn’t interested. Joe would come up to him, and JT would just kind of run away. Not in a scared way. He would just be like, I don’t want anything to do with this. So he would go away. Now it’s really cute because they’ve hit their groove and they play all the time. After breakfast and dinner every day, they just play for like an hour. JT is like a little puppy again. His inner puppy is awoken and it’s just adorable.
Claire: And when do you hear about Cadet?
Joy: When this episode releases, we will probably have heard her most recent report. It will come out on April 27. So that will just mean that they’ll give us a report like, yes, she is still in the hearing dog program, she’s doing great. From what I’ve heard people in the Canine Companions family, the hearing dog program might take a little bit longer – meaning if she was in the typical service dog track, she would be graduating in May because it’s only about 5-6 months of training. But my understanding of the hearing dog track, they may be a little bit longer. So it’s probably more likely that she’ll graduate end of May or maybe June. So we’re just kind of waiting. The weird part is we just have to go on with our lives and pray that we don’t have a conflict. Please don’t have graduation the same weekend as this wedding in Arizona. Because we really want to be there and do the whole ceremony with her. But if she does graduate, in case I haven’t mentioned this, we would fly out and meet the recipient. They have this really beautiful ceremony where the puppy raisers hand the leash over to the new recipient and everyone meets and cries. It’s really, really sweet. It would be amazing to see her. Also looking back, how hard it was to even talk about letting her go. It’s been really healing to have Joe. It doesn’t hurt as much not having her, which I never thought I’d get to. We miss her a lot. There’s so much that we miss about her. But this is what I think about too. I think about when I lose JT. It’s a very weird thing to think about. Oh, you will move on from loss. It will still hurt. You’ll still miss someone. I’m not even comparing this to humans obviously. But when JT passes away, I think that was one thing that we really wanted to puppy raise because we wanted to have more dog energy in the house, and we didn’t want to have all our love poured into JT. Because honest to goodness, I don’t know if we would have survived when JT passes away. But if he would have passed away while we were raising another dog. That was our thinking in a very odd way. And also, we wanted to puppy raise. That’s not the only reason. These are the things we started to plan because we love this animal so much. In a way I laugh at that too. Brene Brown always talks about you can’t plan ahead to soften the blow of any type of pain. But what I’m saying is it really showed us that you can move on from something that hurts like that, and that was what I was so afraid of with Cadet. How much longer is this going to hurt, and how painful is this going to be? It is hard, and that’s always the number one thing that people ask when I tell them I’m a puppy raiser. I’m like, yeah, it hurts like hell. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. But I’m so excited to see her if we get to see her and go to her graduation. It will be so emotional, but I’m also at a point where this is what they mean when they say the dogs choose the path that they want. This is something that she enjoys. Canine Companions, they put the dogs in a place where the dog is going to thrive. They would never force a dog to become a service dog if it wasn’t showing the behaviors that it was enjoying it. If we get to see her, which I really hope we do, and get to say goodbye to her finally, it’s weird to think about. It’s been so long since we said goodbye to her. But I always think about that, if we get to see her again, what that will be like. I’m sure the emotions will flood back.
Claire: Oh yeah. I thought you were going to say that you weren’t sure if you wanted to see her again because now you’re at a point where it doesn’t hurt as bad.
Joy: No, I definitely want to see her. I think it’s just me thinking about this whole process in getting a new puppy was, oh, I get it now. I get how people can move on and let go of these dogs, and then you open up your heart to another one and you see what good it does for others. Anyway. It’s a lot.
Claire: Not to just talk about things that traumatized you in the past year… [laughing] How is that for a bridge into another topic? On Instagram stories you posted about how you’re coming up on the year anniversary of leaving your job last year and how you were trying to decide how to honor that day. But also trying to decide if you’re going to share more of what happened. This is not the moment. We’re not going to drop this bomb two minutes before the episode ends, but do you want to talk a little bit about how that thought process has evolved for you?
Claire: I know we get into this a little bit on the episode with Tina.
Joy: We do a tiny bit with Tina when we talk. Next week’s episode we talk a little bit about this because Tina and I had a very similar experience. Here is what I’m going to say about it for now. Right now, I’m in a really good place. I’ve been in a really good place. I’m so glad that things worked out the way they did. And there would be twinges of moments, especially because the year mark of me leaving that job is coming up at the end of May. I’ll still have dreams and moments where I’m so angry. But the funny thing is, I haven’t really been as angry. Ever since I did that post, it’s like every time I talk a little bit about it, it releases something. I think the reason why I hesitate about talking exactly about what happened is because it brings out a part of me that’s gossipy and not helpful. I think that’s where I go back and forth. If I talk about what really happened, I go to a place of anger, bitterness, and mean girls, which is what I left. That’s the reason why I’m no longer there. And do I really want to talk about a place that if I talk about exactly what happened it sucks me back into the whole drama of what happened, which was really horrible, you guys. It was a horrible situation. Someone DM’d me when I did that post. If you didn’t see it, I just posted something on stories. It’s basically like, “It’s coming up on the year. I’ve been reflecting a lot. Kind of debating on how I want to honor that day because it is a big day for me emotionally. And if I ever want to tell the full story.” And someone DM’d and said, I went through something similar. And what I came around to if I wanted to share that “full story” was if it’s helpful or if it’s hurtful. If it’s helpful, then share it. But if it feels hurtful, then don’t share it. That’s a great way to think about it because I don’t want to be what I feel like that organization did to me. And I truly feel like they were horrible to me. And by me talking about it in that way is me being horrible to them, and that doesn’t feel good to me. However, I want to at some point perhaps share the experience. And I haven’t figured that out. It’s taken this long for me to even share some details, and every time I talk about it, I feel like I’m super vague. There’s a reason behind that. There was so much pain and bitterness and anger that sharing the story turns it into this gossipy muckily muck of me just being mad at women specifically. That’s the hard part too. Women, people who I thought were my friends, that I really felt betrayed by. So if I get to a point of saying this is exactly what happened, how is that going to be helpful? But perhaps how it’s helpful is how I came around to it and healed my heart. The pain that’s there. Truly I’m in such a better place. I work for the most amazing organization. I have such a great balance in my life. I cannot overstate the thing of “things happen for a reason.” As much as I hate hearing that, it’s so true. It really is true. But there’s a part of me that also when I think about that, I think the bitterness that’s there is if I say, “I’m in such a good place now” that that gives them permission to say, “We’re glad she’s not here anymore.” The other thing I’ll be honest about if I were to talk about it, honestly – and this is how I know I’m not ready to share everything – is my hope is that they listen to it. And that’s something that tells me, you’re just in it to be mean. If I talk about it, my hope is like, yeah, I hope these bitches hear it. And I’m like, yeah, that’s hurtful. You’re not ready then, if you’re going to share that piece. But if I want to get to a spot where it’s helpful, then maybe I will. So all I can say right now is I’ve had to protect my energy and sharing with people who I feel like are going to help me through it. I kept in touch with some people who I used to work with who really wanted to talk about the drama. Every time I would meet with them, it was kind of like, oh, this makes me feel worse. I don’t want to talk about the drama. I want to talk about how much hurt I’m feeling and how this is a hard thing to go through. Not so-and-so is a jerk. I can’t believe they blah blah blah. On some level, I get that that’s a little bit healing with a certain few that are protected. But more importantly, I spend the year really, really, really backing off and really healing and really recognizing. Like oh wow, you are in a very bad place. They were not nice, and you do not need to be at a place like that anymore. Getting there took some time. And here’s the thing, guys. I’m going to say this part because I think it’s important for people to understand. I did not leave my job. I want to say that because I don’t want it to sound like it was this luxury decision. We’ve talked about that before. In some situations, if you have the luxury to leave, that’s a luxury position. Not everyone gets that privileged position to be like, I’m going to choose to leave my job because I’ve saved up all this money or am in a financial place to do it. I did not leave.
Claire: You were, more or less, not given a choice.
Joy: Yes. It was a reorganization, and I was not asked to return. We were all fired – it’s a long story. But if you’ve ever been in a reorg, basically they fire everybody and then they rehire you into new positions. I was very much believing, zero doubt, which is why it was such a shock, I had 1010% confidence that I was going to be rehired because I was one of the top performers on that team. And so when I was not rehired, that was where all of this came out of the blue. So I want to be transparent about that piece because I want people to understand that this was not a decision that I decided to leave. I’m okay saying that now because it’s almost been a year. I had some fear even talking about this on the podcast because I have fear that the company can be very… what’s the word?
Joy: Yeah. And they can be vindictive and a little bit like… they can come after you. So because it’s been so far away, I don’t worry about that anymore. That’s why I was like, “I just decided to leave” because I really wanted it to be a very vague. I didn’t want anything negative. Even Scott was like, “Don’t you dare breath a word of negativity because they will come after you.” I truly believed that with how horrible they were to me. That is one piece that I do want to be honest about because I don’t want people to get this idea that I just left because it was so negative. Yes, and there is more to it that at some point perhaps if it’s helpful I can talk about. I was really quickly kicked out within two days of notice. You can imagine me managing a team of 30 amazing people how shocking that can be to not even be able to say goodbye to your team and how traumatic that was. So more on that as I can learn to talk about it in a way that’s helpful. And perhaps what I would like the listeners to do is ask questions of what might be helpful for you. If you have gone through something similar or if you’re in a place of transition in your life. Because on a bigger scale, that’s what it was was huge transitions. Happy to talk about it in a way that’s helpful. Questions might be a great way for me to formulate how to do that.
Claire: Okay. So speaking of questions, we do have some random silly questions. So we are just going to lighten the air a little bit before we end this episode. This is a question that I want to start with because I think it’s going to be hard for you to answer.
Joy: Oh no.
Claire: Would you rather be a dog or a celebrity for a week?
Joy: [deep breath] A celebrity. And the reason –
Claire: What if you were a celebrity’s dog?
Joy: I say celebrity. I think of all the juices I can drink.
Claire: That’s true. If you were a dog, you would only get to eat one thing all week.
Joy: So that’s the reason.
Claire: Because of more varied food and beverages. I respect that logic. I definitely would pick celebrity. Favorite place you’ve ever traveled and one place on your bucket list you’ve never been?
Joy: Favorite place. I think we just talked about this. Iceland for sure is my favorite. It’s a tossup. I loved Costa Rica too. But I would say Iceland. And then on the bucket list, I know this sounds really silly, but Scott and I really want to go to New Orleans. We’ve yet to go to New Orleans.
Claire: Really? Ever in your life?
Joy: Never. Ever, ever, ever.
Claire: It’s so cute. You guys have to go. It’s so easy. Just book a trip.
Joy: It’s a very easy thing to do. So that’s one. I know I should be thinking bigger and international, but that’s truly on our bucket list.
Claire: I think one of my favorite places I’ve ever been is definitely Iceland and Argentina. A place that’s on my bucket list right now is to go to Banff. Okay, we’re just going to do a couple quick ones. Some of these are a little longer, so we’ll come back to them later. A workout class you tried but hated? For example, belly dancing. Pole dancing, I hated. I thought I would love it because it’s sort of silly and I love to dance. I hated it. It was so sticky. Everything about it was sticky.
Joy: Did you have to wear the high heels too?
Claire: No. You’ve got to bring your own high heels.
Joy: I was going to say, I can’t imagine.
Claire: My skin didn’t adapt. I don’t know. I don’t know if there was a cream we were supposed to use.
Joy: Lube. Do you bring your own lube?
Claire: I feel like that would be counterproductive. There’s got to be something in between skin on metal.
Joy: Sticky, versus slippy.
Claire: Like chalk maybe? I don’t know.
Joy: You just bring your bag of chalk. The first thing that came to my mind, it wasn’t a class that I didn’t enjoy. That didn’t come to mind for a fitness class. But there was one instructor that I took a yoga class ages ago. I’m thinking like 15 years ago where every time he would talk about doing a pose… maybe I need to release the video because there is no way for me explain this over the audio waves. But he would try to explain the move with his hands. And when he’s hit the end of the pose, he would go [clicking sound]. So almost like, “Warrior pose… [click]” He would just go, “And… [click]” It drove me crazy. [laughing]
Claire: We don’t need sound effects. This is yoga.
Joy: Every move. So he wasn’t explaining the move. He was doing the move and ending it with that sound. I was like, I can’t do this. I almost ran out of the class, yeah.
Claire: That’s annoying. Okay, first thing that comes to your mind. Ready? Don’t overthink this. Best dessert you’ve ever had?
Joy: Cheesecake at the Cheesecake Factory.
Claire: Oh wow, hot take. I think one time I accidentally ordered an entire chocolate volcano cake in Argentina. Have I told this story?
Claire: So after I graduated, I more or less did a study abroad. I didn’t study abroad when I was actually in college. So for a couple months, I lived in Argentina. I lived with a host family, and I went to an English school. One thing that I found was very difficult was that my vocabulary limitations were incredibly obvious when I was reading a menu. I had no idea what any of the words were. Not only is Argentina a very regional type of cuisine, but I just didn’t know that many food words. I hadn’t learned them. The only words – carne, okay great. I get some sort of meat thing. Which one time I accidentally ordered an entire eight person smoked meat platter. The other one that I would always recognize was hongos which means mushrooms. Okay, this is going to be something savory. One time I was at a restaurant and I had no idea. None of these items looked familiar. So I just picked the last thing on the menu. It turned out to be a full-size chocolate lava cake.
Joy: [laughing] That’s amazing.
Claire: And I ordered it with such confidence, the waiter was like, okay. The word “chocolate” I would have recognized, so it must have been called something different. It came out and it was a full-size chocolate lava cake. It was by far not the worst mistake I’ve made in Spanish.
Joy: Oh my gosh.
Claire: This person says, “Not random. But suggestions for wide toe box running shoes brands, please.”
Joy: Oh, HOKAs, no doubt.
Claire: Or Altra.
Joy: HOKAs, Altra. Or Brooks.
Claire: Great, let’s do two more. This is a quick one. When are you guys coming over to TikTok with your reels? The answer is never.
Claire: Sorry. Never going to happen.
Joy: I hate TikTok, and I refuse. But I bet you one day we will, and this is going to be like…
Claire: Never ever.
Joy: I just can’t get into it.
Claire: Favorite spring flower?
Joy: Tulips are great. I have a million tulips.
Claire: Tulips are great. Perfect. My favorite spring flower is lilacs.
Claire: Last one. What is your favorite thing about one another? That’s a cute question.
Joy: Off the top of my head, because there’s a lot. But the number one thing is how quick-witted you are with things. You always make me laugh. The things that come out of your mouth – and Brandon always says this too. I think the thing I loved the most, especially when we were traveling with Brandon and Scott, I loved when Brandon would just start laughing at you. He’d be like, “Ha ha ah,” and I’d be like, oh my God, it’s so funny how he will laugh at you. And you’re like, he thinks I’m hilarious. And how funny you are but I don’t think you realize how funny you are. The things that fly out of your mouth, you’re just like, where did that come from?
Joy and Claire: [laughing]
Joy: And your deep knowledge of water.
Claire: Deep knowledge of absolutely random topics. Thanks, that’s so nice of you.
Joy: You’re welcome. I think someone asked this before too.
Claire: Yeah, but I think you gave a different answer. My favorite thing about you is that you absolutely do not suffer fools at all. If you’re in a conversation with Joy and she doesn’t want to be there, it is so obvious.
Joy: [laughing] Is it that obvious?
Claire: Yes, Joy. It’s obvious to me because I know what to look for. But you just do not entertain any type of putting up with people’s stupidity for the sake of politeness.
Joy: Nope. [laughing] That’s pretty true.
Claire: I appreciate that about you.
Joy: At least someone does. I’ve got to tell that to my mom. She always gets mad at me for that.
Claire: Your mom is too polite.
Joy: Because she is so patient, and I’m not. I’m exactly like my dad. I am becoming my father, but my dad, he’ll talk to you on the phone. The other day, Scott was on the phone with him. He’s like, “Yeah Ron, da da da da da.” He looks at me and he’s like, “I think your dad just hung up on me.” I’m like, oh yeah, he does that. When he’s done talking, he just hangs up. That’s going to be me. I just can’t deal with anything. Small talk, energy for stupidity, can’t. That’s really funny.
Claire: Alright guys, well thank you so much for joining us for another week. Don’t forget to check out our sponsor, Ned, helloned.com. Discount code is JOY or /JOY. Check out their Dream Set. It’s dreamy. You can find us on Instagram at @joyandclaire_. You can go to our website joyandclaire.com. Which by the time you guys hear this, the new one might be up. Go check it out. It might be. It’s so cute. And we will talk to you next week.
Joy: Bye guys.