81: Takin’ Naps Walkin’ Dogs

July 1, 2021

Corrections and feedback, Joy is feeling her feelings (what does that mean?), creating rituals during tough times, getting paid what we’re worth, applying to jobs, Joy’s health update, and how Joy will continue to keep her health in check.

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 81: Takin’ Naps Walkin’ Dogs

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

Transcription Completed: July 18, 2021

Audio Length: 49:24 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire.

Claire: [singsong voice] Good morning.

Joy: [singsong voice] How’s your week going? Good morning, how’s your week going? We’re recording this on Sunday very early. Claire, I’m really impressed that you’re up and at ‘em.

Claire: This is late in Joy time, but it’s very early in Claire years.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Recently, when we got River, Miles discovered the concept of dog years.

Joy: Oh, dog years, not dog ears.

Claire: Not dog ears. Dog years. Then he started thinking that everything should have its own measurement of time. So tree years.

Joy: Oh, I love that. What does he come up with?

Claire: Oh, everything. “Mom, how old am I?” “You’re 5 1/2.” “Well, what is that in tree years?” I don’t know Miles, this is a unit of measurement you invented. It’s probably like a month actually because trees live to be… he basically has been discovering ages. So he asks everyone on the street, “How old are you? How old is your mom?”

Joy: Oh, that’s so cute. How old is your mom. 

Claire: We’re at the park, and there was some little kids. They were with their grandparents, and he went up to their grandparents. He was like, “How old are you? How old is your mom?” She was like 70, and she was like, “Uh.” I was like, “I’m sorry, he wants to know how old everyone is.”

Joy: Yeah, I’ll never forget I was at dinner with a friend last year – well no, not last year. It was before COVID. And her 3-year-old, we were sitting there at dinner. We were at a booth, so you could see behind us, and the little girl was like, “Grandpa!” really loud. The guy was older. We just started laughing so hard. We were like, “Sorry. You’re not old, but she just sees a grandpa.” 

Claire: She only has like two points of reference. 

Joy: It was so cute.

Claire: The other thing Miles is super into right now is knock knock jokes. But he doesn’t understand why knock knock jokes are funny. So he’ll just be like, “Knock knock. Who’s there. Pizza. Pizza who. We’re eating pizza.” 

Joy: [laughing]

Claire: I’m like, “We are eating pizza. Thank you.” 

Joy: That’s hilarious. 

Claire: Thank you for telling me that through a knock knock joke.

Joy: I love it. 

Claire: But he also loves the interrupting knock knock jokes. Are you familiar with these?

Joy: [gasps] Yes. Oh my gosh.

Claire: Should we do one?

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Okay, this is Miles’ favorite. 

Joy: Okay.

Claire: Knock knock.

Joy: Who’s there.

Claire: Interrupting bottom.

Joy: Interrupting –

Claire: [farting noise]

Joy: [laughing] I like the interrupting cow one personally.

Claire: I mean, they’re all good ones. But you can literally interrupt with literally anything.

Joy: Literally anything, and why not a fart.

Claire: He’ll be like, “Interrupting pizza. Interrupting pi- nom nom nom.” He’ll do anything you’re looking at or holding or interacting with. It’s so funny.

Joy: That’s so great.

Claire: Okay, so before we get too far into this episode, we wanted to make few corrections from our episode, not the one with Justin but the one prior to that. So thank you guys as always for writing in and letting us know if there is anything that we ever say that rubs you the wrong way very badly or that is inaccurate. So the first one is that the – I don’t even remember their name. What is the name of the person who we talked about being bullied by Chrissy?

Joy: Oh, Courtney Stodden. 

Claire: Right. So Courtney Stodden does not use she/her pronouns. They use they/them pronouns as of April or May of this year.

Joy: Right.

Claire: Thank you for pointing that out. We also got that wrong with Demi Lovato a couple of weeks ago not realizing that they had also changed to they/them pronouns.

Joy: Right. And I actually did know that, but I totally messed it up. I was like, well, yes. So that was completely something that I forgot to look at for Courtney Stodden, that they had changed their pronouns.

Claire: So thank you guys for telling us that. We definitely are going to be better about doing due diligence around that before we talk about celebrities.

Joy: To never assume. You just never assume, and I just failed on that part.

Claire: And then the other one was talking about master bath and master bedroom. So last summer when everybody started rushing to update the way that they talked about things and update the way that looking at different phrases and looking at different terms and the Dixie Chicks just became The Chicks. One of the other phrases that was brought up was the phrase master bath and master bedroom and how that phrase was created to refer to the bedroom and the bathroom of the master of the plantation, of the slave master. So the preferred terminology is main bedroom and main bathroom. So thank you guys for bringing it up, reminding me of that. That’s another one of those where I had known about it. The commentary I had read about it from a few Black activists was don’t change the name master bath, change housing policies. So I had sort of read that a few times and thought, “Oh, that wasn’t a big deal. I’ll just keep calling it this.” But then a few people brought it up after last week’s episode, and it made me realize this is a bigger deal. Just because you read a few people’s opinion about something and think, “Oh, I don’t have to change that” or “I should change that’ or whatever, it’s always really helpful for me to continue to hear people’s opinions and to continue to hear what stands out to people and to realize just because I’ve read one person’s opinion, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the final answer on the subject. And then there was also some feedback on the way that we were talking about celebrities and about… I can’t remember celebrities’ names ever. The Kimmy Schmidt girl.

Joy: Oh Ellen… no….

Claire: Ellie something.

Joy: Ellie Kemper.

Claire: Kemper. I was going to say Ellie Goulding.

Joy: Well I almost wanted to say Ellen Pompeo, but that’s Grey’s Anatomy

Claire: Ellie Kemper, about the debutante ball thing with her and just that we have been speaking about it very flippantly and sort of, “Oh, it’s not a big deal.” It is a big deal, and we need to be more aware of the way that we discuss issues related to gossip and that for us it is just sort of like, “Oh yeah, I heard this thing. Let’s chat about it.” We don’t really do a lot of research typically, and for issues that have that deeper significance, having this surface level commentary on them can feel very dismissive for people where those issues did really hit home. So thank you as always for bringing things like that up to us. We are always open to feedback. At the end of the day, our number one priority is to always be open to changing our point of view, updating our language, updating the things that we say, correcting ourselves. We always are really, really grateful for the opportunity to correct ourselves. So, okay. I just wanted to put that out there. And again, thank you everyone for writing in. And thank you – we have the best community. People don’t bash us typically. When people write into us and let us know, “Hey, this x, y, z thing got flagged in my brain when I was listening to this,” it’s always so respectful and very much from a place of I want you to know that this upset me or that this rubbed me the wrong way. Not like how dare you, you P.O.S.

Joy: Exactly, exactly.

Claire: So thanks for not yelling at us.

Joy: I think that throughout the years of doing this podcast, my hope is that everyone knows that we are wanting this to be a place of respect and love for one another.

Claire: And inclusion.

Joy: Everyone is welcome. If there’s any time that we are totally missing the mark, we want to know so we can correct it. 

Claire: And also, I think that any human on this earth is 100x more likely to hear feedback and correct what they are doing if it is presented in a way that is not aggressive or going to make you feel defensive. That always is just nice too, to not have to –

Joy: It’s nice.

Claire: It’s nice. It’s not owed to us by any means.

Joy: Right, I was going to say. People can be pissed off too.

Claire: Totally.

Joy: I’m a sensitive snowflake.

Claire: That’s true. We are open to feedback if you tell us ahead of time.

Joy: Just don’t throw things at me.

Claire: And that is a hard thing too.

Joy: It totally is. It totally is.

Claire: When you are on Instagram or getting an email or whatever, you’re not always in the mindset to receive corrections, and that can be tricky when something comes out and you start to get comments or you are driving and you check your inbox, and all of the sudden you have to go into this mental space that you weren’t in and you weren’t ready for, and it can kind of feel jarring and it can feel like this knee jerk reaction. You can get your hackles up.

Joy: Get your hackles up.

Claire: You know, like a dog.

Joy: Yeah, totally. And I think that is something that I will try to do –

Claire: Not you, Joy. You, humanity.

Joy: You, humanity. I think that I have been more aware, trying to set a boundary that I don’t check social media or emails at night because if I see something that makes me feel a negative feeling that I’ll be up all night. So it’s not that I don’t want to hear it. It’s just that we are in a place where we’re putting ourselves on a platform, and I think even more so it’s really important for us to be respectful and speaking of things in a respectful way. If it ever comes across that we’re not, we want people to talk about it because that’s something that’s important to us for our community. I always get so scared of hurting feelings. We never want to hurt feelings.

Claire: It’s all just a good point about boundaries around social media that all of us have entered into this phase of humanity where we’re all open to everyone else’s opinions at any moment of the day, and that’s really overwhelming.

Joy: It is, yeah.

Claire: Speaking of overwhelming, how are you, Joy?

Joy: Um… I… am… feeling my feelings. That’s my number one rule recently.

Claire: Okay, what does that mean though?

Joy: [laughing] That’s a good question too. Just in case people have missed that I left my job about a month ago. There’s probably a story that I will tell in about six months to a year from now. I’ll talk a little bit more about that. But right now, it’s just leaving it at I left my job, and the past month has been a lot of soul searching. When I say “feeling my feelings,” I have been working straight with no breaks other than a week or two vacation here or there since 2001, 2003. So I haven’t had a really significant chunk of time off in that long. So this decision and this whole situation was not something that I was really ready for. With that comes a lot of emotions. I think that throughout this whole time, I’m like, “I’m going to feel my feelings,” meaning I’m not going to jump into something right away. My inclination and my type of personality is like, alright, I’ve got to go to the next thing. I’m going to make some goals. I’ve got to get another job. I’ve got to make a plan. Lists, routines. Also just “moving on.” The first week of all of this time off, I was really sad and I was really frustrated. I was really all over the place emotionally. The second week, I was a little angry and emotional. I was kind of making this whole scenario like it was going to be linear, which I know it’s not going to be linear. But I was expecting the further I got away from the job that I was in the better that I would feel. That’s just what I made up in my head, as almost grief in a way where you’re like, more time will heal. It hasn’t. And that’s okay, but when I say “feel my feelings,” what I’m trying to say is I’m not going to drown myself in goals and plans and structure and trying to make a new routine for myself because that would be ignoring my feelings. So if I’m feeling angry, I’m just going to let myself feel angry and not judge it. That whole cliche thing of not judging your feelings. But for myself personally, what I tend to do it I try to pick myself up, move on, and also have a “I’ll show them” mentality where I make all these goals and try to accomplish, accomplish, accomplish as a big screw you. Which does nothing because nobody cares what I’m doing.

Claire: They aren’t checking up on you.

Joy: Nobody’s checking up on me. No one’s like, “What is Joy doing?” So I kind of equate it to a boyfriend that you wish would miss you.

Claire: One thousand percent, yeah. You hope that they’re sitting there being like, “If only Joy was still here to tell about how to do this.”

Joy: Totally. Totally. They don’t care. They don’t care. And so it’s just funny. I kind of joke with myself that I’m listening to all these bad breakup songs. It truly is feeling like a boyfriend who just doesn’t miss you that you’re like, “I’ll show you.”

Claire: Right. You’re going to go in the tight dress in the club and stand across from them.

Joy: Totally. Like I’m going to go in Khloe Kardashian’s revenge body. The worst show ever. It’s so funny. So anyway, that is where I’m at. I am not –

Claire: You’re in the revenge body phase.

Joy: I’m in the revenge body phase. I really am just trying to be aware of every single emotion I have and to just sit in it. Even though I’m a therapist, I’m not good at sitting in my own feelings and crap, and I tend to just be like, “Let’s move on. Let’s accomplish. Let’s go, go, go.” So that’s what I mean when I say “feel my feelings.” It’s different for everybody, but I have just been in this place of ups and downs and fear and scared. A lot of people wrote when I did a Q&A this week, “Hey, any advice for leaving a job?” Yeah, there are so many different scenarios. I’m not going to be the person to say jump and leave your job if you’re unhappy. But if you have to be in a situation where you do leave, make a plan, have a plan. I don’t have a plan. I am not in a scenario where I have a plan. I’m not doing something that I would give advice for. It just kind of happened the way that it happened. 

Claire: Right. Ask in a year for advice.

J :Ask in a year, ask in a year. I’m still too far in it to really have that clear mind of what is the right way to react to something like this, and I don’t think there is. But the other day when I was texting you, I was like, I’m having a real hard day. I am feeling so aimless when I have all the things I have to have done by 9am. What do I do with the rest of the day? Some people would be like, “I would kill to have that scenario.” It is terrifying to me.

Claire: It’s interesting when I was texting you that I was realizing this is what a lot of us went through last year during lockdown when all of our activities were taken away, and you didn’t ever experience that.

Joy: No. I had the exact same life during the pandemic.

Claire: And if anything, your job got more busy and more crazy and more hectic. Even though maybe you couldn’t go to the gym, you were doing the Peloton treadmill.

Joy: Right.

Claire: You didn’t have that same thing where all of the sudden the majority of us were like, “I can’t leave my neighborhood.” I guess my new activity is setting an alarm to remind me to go for a walk. 

Joy: Right, exactly. Where my job just kept going. And aside obviously from the social aspect of not seeing people, my job was the same. I was going to work every single day. Nothing changed except for there were no patients coming into the building. So that was a really good point where you said that. I’m like, oh, is this what you guys experienced? Because I am freaking out.

Claire: Yeah, just your routine completely being blown up.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Even though, right, the idea of having “free time” sounds like the dream, even people who don’t work still have things throughout their day that mark their day.

Joy: Right. That mark their day, yeah.

Claire: Humans are creatures of habit, and humans need structure. I’ve talked a little bit about – I’ll get into this Irish book I’m reading later – but even reading about civilizations that lived in mud huts. And we talked about this with Casper. Ceremonies, rituals, ways to start the day, ways to mark the middle of the day, ways to mark the end of the day. Intrinsically, even early humans gravitated towards and needed these routines. Just being adrift in a sea of whatever you want to do is not as relaxing as it sounds.

Joy: It’s really not. I’m definitely taking advantage of it at the same time, of going from 100 miles an hour to really going 25 miles an hour is a huge change for me, but I’m also being like, hey, this is just your life right now. Things are going to be okay. I’m trying to do as much as I can to not fall into a deep, dark depression. For me, that just has to do with making small goals throughout the day. So like you suggested, you’re like, hey, at 3 o’clock try out a new beverage. Buy a bunch of new beverages, go to Whole Foods. You love beverages, and try a new beverage at 3 o’clock every day. Do things like that that are a ritual and something to schedule. So I’m doing – it sounds very silly in the grand scheme of things, especially with my past life of doing a hundred things a day is I will do anything to run an errand. Running errands for me is, I’m going to go to the post office and mail this letter in person.

Claire: I’m going to run that errand.

Joy: I’m going to run that errand. My car is very clean, even more clean than it is normally. I washed my car. I walk the dogs a lot. I go to the neighbors every single day and we play with the dogs. We have dog dates. I’m just making these new routines my normal, which feels really good. Sitting down and having lunch and not trusting through lunch. Letting myself take naps throughout the day. Don’t hate me, but around 2 or 3 o’clock I lay down with the dogs and just take a nap. These are the times where I’m like, I just need to let myself have this time off. And also not feel guilty about it. I’ve been such a work horse my whole life, and I do like working, so having time off makes me feel like I’m not accomplishing things. And it’s also making me realize I associate a lot of my self-worth with accomplishments and blah blah blah. Just being like, hey, this is a blip in your life and you’ll get through it. I’m making it my job right now to search for jobs and job hunting is really in and of itself a job. 

Claire: It really is.

Joy: Oh my gosh. I knew this was going to happen, but I have put in so many applications and have received just as many rejection letters.

Claire: If you hear back at all.

Joy: If you hear back at all. I knew that this was a thing. I’ve been job hunting for the past few years, just off and on. So this is not a new thing for me. I’ve been planning my next step unofficially.

Claire: I feel like everyone always sort of makes disclaimers when they talk about when they’ve been looking for jobs. I honestly think that every single person out there, unless you’re in a tenured position or something, every one of us should always know what’s going on in the job market. We should be looking at jobs, at least a couple times a month. You should just be getting on LinkedIn and scrolling through.

Joy: Yep.

Claire: Not only do you never know what’s out there, but it helps you be aware of what the pay range should be.

Joy: 100%.

Claire: I love reading job descriptions of other types of positions similar to mine because I like to see what else is out there in terms of, oh, maybe I could be thinking of doing more x, y, z because I see that this similar role is more heavily geared towards that.

Joy: Yeah, exactly.

Claire: Career development. It doesn’t have to be all about looking to jump ship all the time.

Joy: Right, exactly. And it shouldn’t be a negative thing to your current employer.

Claire: It shouldn’t feel like a threat.

Joy: Definitely not. And if it is, that’s unfortunate. But I think that you should always be looking, like you said, around where you stand, if you’re paid enough. Especially as women. I recently learned that Colorado has – I don’t know if it’s a law or –

Claire: It is. So it’s a new law this year.

Joy: Oh, okay. Around pay transparency.

Claire: If you post a job posting, you are required to post the salary range, which I think every single person out there – if you are posting a job that does not include the salary range in the job post –

Joy: I don’t apply.

Claire: I don’t apply.

Joy: If there’s no pay range in the job description, I pass through it. No, I’m not going to waste my time.

Claire: “Pay is commensurate on experience.” What does that even mean?

Joy: What does that even mean? So I just completely pass by job descriptions that don’t have a pay range. But I have been really living my life on LinkedIn. I like Indeed and I like Glass Door. I use Glass Door to look for company ratings to see what people are saying about the companies, so I usually use Glass Door for that. I’ve found – and I don’t know how you feel – I’ve found that LinkedIn is much more user friendly.

Claire: It feels more approachable.

Joy: Approachable, user friendly. I feel like the searches are easier. You can communicate with the recruiters or the posting people. You can communicate with them easily, so I just feel like that is something that I’ve been learning through this whole experience. But definitely, definitely, I’m very grateful for living in the state of Colorado because it’s interesting that the job posting will say “Colorado residents, here’s the pay range.” I’m like, why aren’t you doing that for every state? But it’s because Colorado made it a law, which is another reason why I love living here.

Claire: I think it’s interesting too, I’ve been talking a lot about job transitions with a lot of my friends. I think right now the job market is kind of hot and cold. If you go and start looking for jobs, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, there’s so much out there.”

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: But then I think a lot of people are having that thought. Yeah, there’s so much out there, but also a lot of people are applying. I can’t remember if we already talked about this or not, but one of my friends who does all the hiring for the company she works for was saying that she thinks that there is this – and LinkedIn has talked about this, the “great resignation,” that everyone is quitting their jobs right now. There’s a labor shortage, and that’s its whole own thing because of minimum wage being really horrible. Even higher-level jobs, a lot of people are resigning, and on elf the concepts behind that is thinking people haven’t been able to change anything about their lives for a year and a half. And now they’re like, you know what, I’m going to get a new job.

Joy: It’s a good point. Good point.

Claire: I do think that’s interesting. And you also have the added thing that people are coming off unemployment because states are starting to reduce unemployment benefits again. So maybe they’re getting more motivated to look for a higher paying job that’s different than what they were doing before. It’s really interesting that the job market right now, when you start looking, you’re like, “This is going to be great. There’s so many jobs.” And then you start applying and you’re like, “Hello?”

Joy: Anyone out there? Yeah. Do you feel like it’s all who you know?

Claire: A thousand percent. Yeah, I’ve never gotten a job at a company where I didn’t know somebody.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Which is crappy because that has so many implications for privilege.

Joy: For sure.

Claire: Actually, the company I work for, there used to be a referral bonus. They got rid of that because they’re like, this is just keeping us from being motivated to hire people of diverse backgrounds because our hiring pipeline is just people that we know.

Joy: Exactly. I’ve been thinking a lot about that because I was a hiring manager at my previous job, so I would be going through resumes. I would take into account when people gave recommendations, but I also would interview people that we didn’t know. And usually it worked out really, really well, so I just find it interesting because I will still apply to jobs, but in my head… who knows. Who knows where this is going to go, what’s going to go into the abyss? This is duh, obvious. It only takes one person to say yes and to hire you. It’s kind of that old cliche of you just have to keep searching until you find that one.

Claire: I will also say I have gotten a job in the past where I did get the random interview, not knowing someone, did really well in the interview, ended up not getting it because they hired internally – which also makes me crazy. Although I say that having applied to internal jobs as well, being like, “But I’m internal.”

Joy: Right, right, right.

Claire: But then I stayed in touch with that manger, and they ended up helping me get another job. So it was like I didn’t get that job, but through that experience I was recommended for another position.

Joy: And you just never know. Right. You just never know. So I’ve been having this mantra play in my head recently that’s, “Just start,” which was from one of my bosses at the DA’s office who just was so inspiring and such a great manager and reminded me that you don’t have to have a perfect plan to just start something. So I’m trying to do that thing where if I’m hesitant about anything, I’m like, just start. Just do something. Just put in that application or sign up on Better Help. I actually just signed up on Better Help to be a therapist because I want to – this kind of goes against with me just kind of being and not making too many goals, but I do feel like I need to keep something churning in my brain that is professional work. Otherwise, I’m’ going to go nuts. This is something that I can just do is sign up on Better Help as a therapist and just do it. I was hesitant. I’m like, should I, should I not. No, just start. Just do something.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: So these are the things that I’m trying to tell myself instead of spinning out and being like, what’s going to happen. Because that’s going to get me nowhere. The other piece that you and I texted about briefly was cultivating joy. I talked to my naturopath about this too because she knew some of the situation. And when I told her that I was no longer there, she was like, “This is an opportunity for you to really, A, focus on your health. You’re going to be a lot healthier, and your health is going to thrive because of this. And to create joy in your life.” And not to sound too like “this is the secret,” but truly I do believe in aspects of the law of attraction. If we are in a place of joy and happiness, that is what’s going to flow into your life or you’re going to be more aware of those things, so that’s something that I’m trying to focus on every day. And I’m not used to that. I’m used to just churning through the day, getting done what I need to get done, and not thinking about what’s going to make me happy. And I realize there’s a whole host of privilege wrapped up in that. But it’s just very much like, what truly is something I can do today that’s just a simple joy, and that’s not something I’ve been focusing on at all in past years.

Claire: Yeah, I think it’s interesting, too, when you do get those opportunities to take a break from – really, I hate the phrase “the grind,” but it really is a grind. You get into a routine, and you don’t know what you’re missing. Suddenly when that goes away, if anyone has had the experience of these routines that you take for granted suddenly going away, it is amazing to realize how much you miss. In terms of miss as in “not notice,” not miss as in “long for.” It’s crazy to realize how much about your life you were not noticing.

Joy: You don’t notice.

Claire: Because you are just in this routine.

Joy: And that is a huge thing that has hit me in the face. I didn’t realize how much I was missing, as in not noticing, because of the grind that I was in. And it truly, truly was. So that’s the silver lining that I’ve been noticing. Wow, I actually don’t want that. I was listening to Brene Brown Dare to Lead podcast recently with her two sisters. She had an episode with her twin sisters. So her recent podcast with her two sisters, they talked about this inventory, and I’ll post the link in the show notes, about where your cup is full in certain areas of your life. One of them that they talked about is your fulfillment and your satisfaction with your job and what you’re doing with your life. They were all like, we’re really grateful that we’re at a ten out of ten with that. I thought for a second. I was like, wow, that’s one of my goals. I want to be at a ten out of ten with what I’m doing with my life as a profession. I didn’t really stop to think about sometimes when I’m applying to jobs, would I really want to do that or am I doing it because this is a good salary?

Claire: It makes you feel like you’re getting something done by applying.

Joy: Right. Exactly. So that’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about too. The last thing I will ask – if listeners have insight into this as well, but I want to hear what you think as far as I struggle with there’s jobs that I see and would love to do. They pay nothing. There’s jobs where I’m like I would love to be a co-responder. There’s a lot of jobs out there right now, especially with the police departments because they want mental health co-responding with incidents. That just sounds amazing. I miss working for the state. And there’s certain jobs where they just pay nothing. And I have a lot of experience and I want to be compensated for that. There’s that almost martyr selfish reason that comes into play.

Claire: You’re not being a martyr if you want to get paid. That’s not true. There’s two things you’re talking about here, and I think they are important to pull apart. The first one is that you are very qualified to be extremely instrumental in programs that are potentially underfunded. So there’s one aspect of taking a pay cut because it’s something you believe in and you know that whatever that service is cannot support paying someone more. Co-responding, working for a non-profit, these are passion jobs. I feel like non-profit salaries are its whole own episode. Then he question is not, am I going to be valued? It’s, can I financially do this? Versus applying for a job at a corporation or a really stable program or something where you know that they could pay you more but they just don’t value this position at that level. And I think those are two separate things. When you look at a job – for example, I’ll look at a marketing management job, and it’ll say here are your responsibilities, the pay is $50,000-60,000. I know for a fact that these responsibilities are worth more than $50,000-60,000 or the amount of experience I would be bringing to them. Versus is if I were to see, oh, this is a marketing consultant position for a non-profit or for a shelter or for whatever and it can pay $40,000-50,000, I would look at that and think, okay, they really need someone to do these things but they can only pay $40,000-50,000. The difference is, in my opinion, the organization that truly can’t afford to pay someone more, they’re going to have to deal with what they get. Versus the corporation is, in my mind, knowingly low balling it.

Joy: That’s a good point. That’s a good point. I think it’s just that – maybe this is a female thing. I don’t know if it’s an all genders thing. But I just feel like the martyrdom gets pretty loud with, am I being selfish by not pursuing this passion because the pay is crap?

Claire: I mean, yeah.

Joy: I want to get paid more. I have almost 20 years of experience. Come on.

Claire: Then maybe instead what you do is you reach out to that organization and say, “Can I be on your board?” You know what I mean?

Joy: Yeah, that’s true. That’s very true.

Claire: Find another way to offer your expertise and your help without being the person who is getting paid an entry level salary with a senior management level of experience.

Joy: Yeah, that’s a good point. Okay. I’d love people to weigh in on that because that’s something I struggle with often. I think it goes back to how you were raised around money and your beliefs around money.

Claire: It does. I would love to hear from people who are in a job where they know full well that their same job in another industry, maybe in the for-profit world or corporate world, would pay significantly more. And not why you do it because I think we can all imagine the fulfillment and the other side of that conversation. But just, how does that feel? When I first started out in my career out of college, I worked in a non-profit. I was an intern because I graduated in the peak of the recession. I was an unpaid intern for the first two years of my career, just doing anything I could, literally just working for free because there weren’t any jobs. I lived in group housing with a bunch of raft guides. There was a whole 6-month period where I pretty much only ate extra food from a backpacking closet. I would bring home extra food after the backpacking trips were over. I mean, we bought some groceries, but that’s honestly what we ate. I pretty much realized, if I want to make more than literally $40,000 a year ever, I can’t work for a non-profit. I was going to go into non-profit management. I was applying to grad programs, and I realized this is not sustainable. So maybe I’ll just volunteer or whatever that looks like.

Joy: Support in other ways.

Claire: Right, support in other ways. Donate. I know that Will Lanier talked about this. He runs the OUT Foundation and OUT Athletics. He decided to go to law school because finally one of his mentors told him,, “You can do good while still doing well.” You don’t have to struggle, struggle, struggle in order to change the world.

Joy: Yeah, and I think those two things don’t have to mutually exclusive, so it doesn’t mean to do good you have to take less pay. You can do good and make money, but I think there’s just that mindset of money equals bad. And that’s just not true. But I grew up in a household that was blue collar, hard working. We did not have a lot of money, and it was more of just be grateful for what you have and give where you can. Money doesn’t bring you happiness – which is true. And I shouldn’t feel guilty for having experience and asking for a salary I feel I’m worth. So that’s where I think I run up against that weird old belief system.

Claire: Yeah. And there’s that “money doesn’t buy you happiness” – yeah, true, but there is a certain point, and studies have been done on this, that show, okay, “money doesn’t buy happiness” but a certain amount of money does relieve stress to the point of benefitting your health, benefiting your life span. 

Joy: Totally, totally.

Claire: So “money doesn’t buy you happiness” doesn’t mean just be grateful that you’re not below the poverty line, be grateful for what you have. 

Joy: Absolutely.

Claire: There’s always that perspective. You want to be grateful for what you have, while also acknowledging having a little more could really help in a lot of areas of your life. I think also that phrase “just be grateful for what you have” is so dismissive and is so limiting. It really holds people back because they don’t want to ask for more. They’re like, “Oh no, I should just be grateful for what I have.” B.S. 

Joy: “You’re being difficult,” yeah.

Claire: By the way, you can be grateful for what you have and still ask for more.

Joy: And always asking for more.

Claire: You wanting more doesn’t mean you aren’t grateful for what you have. 

Joy: Or that you’re taking from other people.

Claire: I think that that is a huge dichotomy that isn’t real, that just because you want more means you must not appreciate what you have. I think so many of us believe that, whether it’s about money, whether it’s about our relationships, whether it’s about our bodies, whether it’s about… name any part of your life. There’s this underlying belief that if you want something else or something more, that must mean you don’t appreciate what you have in this moment, and that just doesn’t have to be true.

Joy: Right, it doesn’t have to be true. Yeah. 

Claire: So you can be grateful for what you have and still want more.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: If anything, it makes sense to be like, “Yeah, love this. More please.”

Joy: More please. Okay. That’s a good conversation for continuing the conversation because that’s something that I feel like I’m constantly thinking about, especially now. So I’ll keep you guys posted. Everything’s in transition. I’m taking it day by day. Feeling my feelings. And walking my dogs a lot.

Claire: Walking the dogs.

Joy: So I want to give you guys a quick update on my health and bloodwork because I recently got my updated bloodwork. So just a recap, I was diagnosed with Graves’ Disease back in the fall, and I went on a 6-month treatment plan with a naturopathic doctor, Dr. Kayla Cook who I asked to be on the show and she said “yes.” I was very excited about that, so we’ll plan a date for her to come on the show. I’m already not scared but like, oh my gosh, it’s going to be an hour and I’ll be like, “We just scratched the surface” because she is a talker and she has so much good information to talk about. But we’re going to get through like two questions. I’m going to be like, “Could we do five episodes?” Anyway. So I recently got updated bloodwork. So we’ve just been tracking my bloodwork for my thyroid. My TSH, which is the thyroid stimulating hormone, my T3, my T4, and my lipid panel, as well as my liver. So my naturopathic doctor was worried because my cholesterol was really, really low back in the fall, along with really poor liver labs and my thyroid. All over the place. So my recent bloodwork – and it’s been creeping up and getting a lot better. Recent bloodwork, the T3 and T4 are back in the normal range, which is huge you guys. It was way out of range. Now it’s normal. Totally normal range. Not close to normal, it is in the normal range. My cholesterol is back up, and this is where my naturopath will talk about this. But she talked about how low cholesterol doesn’t always mean a good thing, and mine was really, really low, which she says that was probably attributed to my liver not doing its job. So now that my liver’s back, liver’s doing great, thyroid’s doing great. My thyroid stimulating hormone is still a little bit low, but it’s creeping up pretty slowly. She says because the T3 and T4 are normal, the TSH should go back to normal. TSH apparently is really affected by stress, and because I just had 2-3 months of very stressful work situations, she’s like, “That doesn’t surprise me at all.” I recently did a Q&A, and someone asked now that you’re in what Dr. Cook says “lifelong remission,” because I was like, “Do you say cured?” Doctors like to say “lifelong remission” or “in remission.” Someone asked, “Does that mean you’re never going to get it again?” And my answer to that is absolutely not because I could potentially get it again. If I go back to what I was doing, you bet your bottom dollar I’m going to get this again or something similar. Maybe I’ll have Hashimoto’s instead of Graves’. But the pace that I was going at was unsustainable. Six months later, seven months later, eight months later, now I can see that pace was not sustainable. So if I go back to what I was doing, yes, I could get this again. But because I’m on a maintenance plan and I’m doing well with it, I’m going to continue to do that. That has a lot to do with managing my stress. Which I know is very cliche, and I feel like it’s overstated all the time, like “Manage your stress.” But for me, that meant making sure I got enough sleep, making sure that I was drinking water, making sure that I was fueling myself, making sure that I was not over-exercising – which I tend to do when I’m stressed out. I will “relieve life stress” by working out, and that actually blew up in my face because I was doing too much intense exercise, which I think we equate to “better.” And that’s just not the case. So I very closely monitor my heart rate when I work out now. I don’t do anything high intense, and if I do I get my heartrate down quickly. I’ve started doing jogs again, but I don’t run and I don’t do really hard long runs. So I’ll do little HIIT training sessions. I’ll do walk and runs on the Peloton, and that feels really good. But I watch my heart rate, and I don’t have any interest in maxing out anymore or pushing past the pain level. You know how in CrossFit, your heart rate is so high that you feel like you’re going to die? I will never do that again. Because that is what led to my body getting completely burned out.

Claire: And I think it’s maybe not ironic, but I do remember last summer us both talking about we’re working out more than we would really recommend or know is healthy because we’re using it as a coping mechanism.

Joy: Absolutely.

Claire: Even though you completely acknowledged and recognize that, that didn’t absolve you of the consequences.

Joy: Right. Yeah, you think you’re doing something good for your body, but it’s really – and I would caution everybody to listen to your body. Moving is great, but you don’t have to kill yourself in workouts. You just don’t. I am a testament of how it can go really poorly and how you can maintain a healthy lifestyle by just going on walks with your dogs and walking on the treadmill, yoga, things that aren’t pushing your heart rate to max. So that’s something that I will continue to do. There’s no going back to what I was doing before because that was what led me into this problem. Moderate exercise. I’m going to follow the diet that she put me on, which is limiting dairy and eliminating sugar and fruit combo. But please don’t come at me about that. That’s something that she and I have worked on. There’s a hold host of things that she has me doing that are really more simple throughout the day. But stress is huge on us, you guys. Just please, please, please take care of yourself around stress. Especially if you’re exercising to relive stress, just watch that because that’s, speaking from experience, that led to a whole host of problems. But the other piece that I wanted to reiterate is that working with a naturopath for Graves’ Disease does not mean that I don’t support Western medicine. I will say that until I’m blue in the face. Western medicine is amazing. Western medicine has also saved my life. I just chose to work with a naturopath for this specific diagnosis because I did not want to remove my thyroid or kill my thyroid. That is just a personal decision I made. It has nothing to do with thinking Western medicine is bad. I absolutely think Western medicine is amazing and naturopath/Eastern medicine is amazing, and both can be true at the same time.

Claire: And like we talked about at the beginning of all of this, it wasn’t that you were like, “Western medicine is crappy, and I never want to go down that road.” You were more like, “I need to pursue this other option first to know that I have exhausted all other options before I kill my thyroid.” You were always very open, like, “If that’s what it comes down to, if that ends up being the only thing that’s going to work, then so be it. But I know there are other choices out there and I’m being told that there are not.” And that is why you went and really pursued this path. It wasn’t like, “I don’t believe in this other solution.” It was more like, “This feels really extreme to me. I’m going to go see what my other less extreme choices are.”

Joy: Right, exactly. And luckily, it worked out. So right now, I’m not seeing Dr. Cook as often. She’s actually going to – she’s so amazing. She’s going to teach me how to do hydrotherapy so I can just buy a machine and do hydrotherapy at home. And do it with Scott too, so Scott can do hydrotherapy. You can do it on anybody. That is something that I truly believe also saved me. So hydrotherapy is the hot-cold therapy. There’s a lot of ways to do it. And whenever people hear me say hydrotherapy, they think it’s colonics, and it’s not. It is a hot-cold therapy, kind of similar to doing contrast showers, like hot-cold showers. It’s similar to that, but there’s a little machine involved. It feels like a TENS unit. There’s a little bit more involved in the process, but that’s really essentially what it is, is the hot-cold therapy. That has been truly amazing. I am on some supplements that help my thyroid. I’m drinking Solé water, which is this water that’s very easy to make. It’s salt water that you drink. Minerals, drinking a lot of minerals. 

Claire: Maybe put a link in the show notes.

Joy: Yeah, that’s a good point. I’ll put a link in for that. So I’m drinking Solé water. I’m watching my diet. I’m dry brushing. I’m making sure I’m sleeping, and that’s it.

Claire: Taking naps and walking dogs.

Joy: Taking naps, walking dogs. So as far as maintenance, I’m going to keep doing that. Dr. Cook was like, “I’m so glad that you’re at that point. That’s always my hope is that patients see that they can’t go back to doing what they were doing before to ‘get better.’” So that’s where I’m at with health. I will gladly take your questions if you have specific questions for Dr. Cook for when we have her on the show. Jus email us thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com if you want to go into depth about a particular topic.

Claire: Well, we’re very, very, very, very excited for you, and we can’t wait to have Dr. Cook on the podcast.

Joy: You’re going to love her. She’s the best.

Claire: I’m so excited.

Joy: I mean, not only is she an amazing physician, but she’s just such a great human to talk to too.

Claire: I’m excited.

Joy: Yep.

Claire: Well, we’ve got to wrap up this week.

Joy: We got to wrap it up.

Claire: We got to wrap it up.

Joy: We got to end at some point, you guys. We’ve got to move on with our lives. You’ve got things to do.

Claire: You have things to do.

Joy: We’ve got jobs to search for.

Claire: Sitting in your drive way right now. Time to go inside, we’re sorry.

Joy: Time to go inside.

Claire: Okay. So you can always find us Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can email us at thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. We say this every time, but still just to reiterate. If you have a question that needs an answer that’s more than just a quick yes or no or a quick, “Hey, what was that product? Oh, it was this.” If you want something that needs more than a sentence, please email us. Things that we need to think about and come back to get lost too quickly in our DM inbox on Instagram and then we lose it. Our Instagram inbox doesn’t have a comprehensive search feature, and if we can’t remember your name we’re never going to be able to find you again. So please email us if you have longer questions.

Joy: Right, we’re not ignoring you. We would love to talk to you.

Claire: We’re not ignoring you. We’ve lost your message because Instagram DMs don’t have a search function. You can support the podcast by ordering your Eat to Evolve meal. The discount code is JOYCLAIRE15. I am really becoming more and more obsessed with these every day. 

Joy: I just had one last night that was so good. I’ll look for the name of it. It was like Mongolian chicken. It was so good, with kale.

Claire: Kale, who doesn’t love kale?

Joy: Kale yeah!

Claire: Oh no. 

Joy: [laughing]

Claire: Kale no. The other day, I at the very last minute got pulled into this lunch meeting. I was like, crap. So I wake upstairs. What the heck am I going to eat? And literally in that moment the angels came down and delivered my Eat to Evolve box. The guy knocked on the door and I was like [singing heavenly sounds]. 

Joy: The best.

Claire: I went outside and grabbed it, I was so excited. I literally have never been so excited for a delivery in my life.

Joy: Thanks Eat to Evolve.

Claire: I know, it was perfect timing. They didn’t even know. Maybe they did. They were waiting.

Joy: They were, for that moment.

Claire: Go to eattoevolve.com. The discount code is JOYCLAIRE15. You also can support us by sharing us with your friends, liking our podcast, liking our social medias, liking our posts on social media and commenting on those. That always helps. Leave a review, leave a rating. Yeah, we are just so excited you’re still here. Thank you for being here. We’ll talk to you next week.

Joy: Have a good one. Bye, guys.

Claire: Bye.

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