74: Traveling Again

May 13, 2021

Covid’s effect on the workplace, traveling again and our recent trips, our personal decisions to have kids or not have kids, and products we’re loving for summer.

Adam Grant Zoom fatigue article

Lele Sadoughi masks


email: thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com

instagram: joyandclaire_

This is Joy & Claire Episode 74: Traveling Again

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Transcription Completed: May 21, 2021

Audio Length: 61:00 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. Happy Thursday. Always on a Thursday.

Claire: Always.

Joy: I don’t know why we picked Thursday.

Claire: It was just the day that our episodes were ready the first time, I think.

Joy: We’re like, “It’s done.”

Claire: We’re like, “It’s done. Should we just release it? Yeah, sure.”

Joy: This is how is works in this podcast world? I don’t know.

Claire: I’m sure at some point somebody has made strategic decisions about this type of thing. And sometimes I feel like there’s this whole science around when to release content. A lot of you guys know, my day job, I pretty much professionally send emails to tens of thousands of people at a time. It’s just my whole life. And a huge part of that is trying to decide, when’s the best time to send an email. There’s unbelievable amounts of research behind this concept, including what’s the best day. And it’s like, well, don’t send on a Friday because nobody’s going to do anything on a Friday. Don’t send on a Monday. People are out of the office. Don’t send too early on Wednesdays because Wednesdays are really big days for meetings for a lot of people. There’s all this stuff behind it. So it’s just funny to me to think that one day we were like, “We’re going to release our podcast today.”

Joy: But is there research in the podcast world? And I’m sure it’s out there. I have not taken the time to look.

Claire: I’m sure it’s out there. It has to be out there. If it’s not out there, then we should do it.

Joy: Because I think about the podcasts I listen to. I think about the days when all my really good ones come out that I really like. And it’s like every day except for Friday. Friday’s a pretty slow podcast day because everyone’s getting ready for the weekend. Not a lot of people are listening to podcasts over the weekend. But it’s interesting because I’m like – a lot of the news podcasts release heavily on Mondays that I listen to. I don’t know. As long as my podcasts come out. Because people can save them. I know some listeners out there save them for a Saturday.

Claire: Totally. But then there are other people out there who are listening to this right now, and it’s 4 o’clock on Thursday morning, and I salute you people who, first of all wake up at 4 o’clock in the morning for any reason ever. Any reason other than to fly to a beach. I can’t imagine a good enough reason.

Joy: Some people work overnight shifts, and I applaud you times a thousand for that.

Claire: So if you are the first person to hear this, I’m excited for you.

Joy: Congratulations.

Claire: Congratulations.

Joy: I wish I had a price for you. But yeah, it’s Thursday. It’s another week. I hope that you listened to last week’s episode, which I loved. It was all of the voice memos from you guys who graciously took the time to tell us your COVID experience. And I loved it. I really, really enjoyed that one, so thank you guys for taking the time to do that. You reminded me of something, Claire, when you were talking earlier about work emails and work days and when people have meetings and Friday. Is there, I guess, a work culture of people shut down at a certain time on Friday? Or I don’t know. Because I think of Scott’s place of employment where his office, the hub, is on the east coast, so everything kind of shuts down at like 2 o’clock on Friday.

Claire: That’s so nice. When we were still in person, there was at my job this official policy in the summer between Memorial Day and Labor Day, you could leave starting at 2 o’clock on Fridays. And it was like, your manager has to say it’s okay, but this is the policy. Try not to schedule meetings after 2 o’clock. Try to get your work done. We all know that it’s the summer, and you’re not being productive anyways. So that was always really nice. I feel like no one has that anymore, now that so many people are working from home. I would say that the culture now is sort of like, I don’t really – unless I have a scheduled meeting with someone, I don’t feel like I can expect them to be online at any given moment. Versus if I had been in the office with them, I would be like, oh I’m going to go stop by this person’s desk and I would expect them to be there. But now I’m like, they could be on a walk. They could be, you know, what do I know? Maybe they had a meeting starting at 7:30 this morning with somebody on the east coast or maybe they’re working with a team in Dubai and they were up really late last night. So now’s it’s just kind of a free for all I feel like, for better or worse. 

Joy: Yeah. It’s expanded, especially working from home. A lot of people who are able to work remotely. Expanding your view of the office culture and what’s acceptable, how you view hours or availability. I like it.

Claire: And it definitely goes the other way. Like, I definitely all the time am online after my kids go to bed because honestly that’s just a more convenient time for me to work a lot of the times. I get so much more done on those nights.

Joy: You have that flexibility.

C; But a lot of times I’m online at 8 o’clock. You get on your Teams portal, and you can see who all are online, and like five or six other people are also online working then. So it goes both ways, which I appreciate, and I think that that’s a big thing that we’re all taking away from COVID is we don’t need to all work at the same time.

Joy: No. I really hope that work places change that culture. I really, really hope so. Where it’s possible.

Claire: I think it will be interesting to see. Right, where it’s possible. Because I know for you, your work schedule has to be at certain times based on clinics and certain stuff. But I think it’s been interesting. You know,  pre-COVID when I was still going into the office all the time, my department still had a policy that you could work from home one day a week. And I never did it because I was like, first of all, I like getting out of my house. I still miss that. We’ve talked about that. But also, I didn’t feel as productive because I was just so used to being in the office and people being able to walk over to someone’s desk or just yell out a question to my boss who was sitting in the office on the other side of the wall. You know, really have that close connection to people. And I think there was this real mentality that people won’t be as productive if they’re not in the office because you don’t have that. And there definitely was a learning curve, for sure, and there still are moments where I’ll have something come up and it takes five emails and three different IM conversations and a phone call and three days to resolve. I’m like, man, if I could have just walked into your office and talked to you about this, it would have been so much easier and it would have been resolved in 15 minutes. But for the most part, I think we’ve really learned that people are just as effective working from home and are just as effective if they can start work at 10 and keep working until 7, even though the rest of their team is working from 8 to 5. It’s just not that big of a deal.

Joy: Yeah, I hope there’s either some hybrid model or at least incorporating some of the practices that people put in place during COVID that worked for the companies. It makes it easier and more accessible for people with families, for people who need to drop their kids off at school, all of these little things that could really contribute to stress and burnout. I feel like if this worked for people, I really hope they keep it. And if people went into the office and that’s their thing and they loved it, I have not changed at all since COVID shut everything down. I’ve been going into the office every single day, so I don’t know the world of just doing remote work. But I can see how people would really benefit from it. At the same time, be itching to go back into the office and see people.

Claire: It was fun. I posted something on my personal Instagram several weeks ago, like months ago at this point, about how I knew it was the start of an unpopular opinion but that I really missed being in the office. And a ton of people commented and they were like, “Well, I don’t miss my 2-hour commute.” I’m like, you had a 2-hour commute? So many people had these unreal commutes, and I was sitting there thinking – I know it’s not always you apply for a job, it’s a little farther away than you thought, the commute takes longer than you thought it was going to, you can’t afford to live in a downtown area, you have to live far away. It’s not always up to you. But part of me was like, maybe you should have just gotten a closer job.

Joy: Yeah, it’s crazy. I think about my brother worked in D.C. for the last three years. He lives in a small town in Maryland, and he was like, I just wasn’t willing to relocate my family to D.C. He’s like, I knew I was eventually going to come back to closer to my home. And he commuted an hour and a half each way.

Claire: That’s crazy.

Joy: And for the most part, he took a bus. The military offers transportation, so he was working on the bus. I think that’s somewhat nice where you’re not the one having the drive the whole way. But still, I think there’s just certain situations where yeah – my commute was not two hours, but when I worked at my first job when I was younger, I wanted to live in the city but I worked in the tech center. Which for those of you who are not familiar with Denver is like the hell-hole commute. Going to the tech center in the city is the worst commute, the worst commute you could absolutely have. And I did that for ten freaking years. I swear to you, traffic contributed to so much anxiety, so much anger, so much dissatisfaction over the years that I was like, finally. But I swore to myself after that, I’m not going to ever commute more than a half hour each way. Now my commute’s fifteen minutes and it’s glorious.

Claire: Very doable.

Joy: I think that commuting is huge. What a – I don’t want to say “waste of time” because it has to happen, but if you can work from home… or let’s take for instance that when we had snow days, our healthcare never shuts down but Colorado had a pretty gnarly snow day  – what was that, in March? And you know, I’m not going to be the one who sits at home when we don’t close. I as a manager, I have my laptop with me. I can work from home if I had to. I’m not going to be the manager that’s sitting at home that’s like, “Have fun guys. How are you doing? Did everyone make it in okay?” I’m going to try to make it in. I’m going to try to get there. And I did and I do. But I think if there’s instances where you can work from home and not put people’s lives at risk. Anyway, there’s so many benefits. There’s pros and cons.

Claire: Okay. But on the flip side though, I really miss my commute. And actually, I have kind of reinstated my commute by still going to the CrossFit gym every day.

Joy: Going to the gym, yeah.

Claire: I drive 25 minutes to the CrossFit gym, and that is the length – the reason I go to this gym that’s 25 minutes away is, first of all, I love it. But also because the reason I started going there is because it’s right by my office. I basically commute to not even a mile away from where I was working. So I kind of have that same commute, and whether I’m able to find time in the middle of the day during my lunch break to go or I go in the evening or very, very early in the morning, I love it because that’s kind of my time. And maybe this also just has more to do with the phase of life that I’m in with the small kids and the puppy now at home. There’s so many people in my house all the time. So when I’m in the car by myself, I’m like [sigh]. This is my “me time.” That’s when I call my mom.

Joy: That’s your alone quiet time.

Claire: That’s when I can listen to music. That’s when I can listen to audio books. I really missed that. And then I realized – Brandon’s mom was out like a month ago, and she was like, “It’s so annoying that you have to drive so far to your gym.” I was like, I actually love it.

Joy: I really like it, yeah.

Claire: I think it’s my “me time.”

Joy: Yeah, some commutes are really relaxing. I don’t mind it at all. It’s really funny though because… let’s see, I mean, we rarely had to drive anywhere, Scott and I. But even these days, when we have to go across town and we hit traffic, we’re not as annoyed because you just never have to hit traffic anymore, especially if you don’t commute. Even during COVID when it first shut down, there was no one on the road. Even now when we hit traffic, we’re like, it’s kind of annoying. I guess we can’t complain because we rarely have to do this.

Claire: Oh, I’m more annoyed now when I hit traffic. I’m like, why are you people out here?

Joy: Where is everybody coming from?

Claire: I had an appointment this morning at 8:30, and I almost missed it because I completely disregarded the fact that it was going to be rush hour while I was driving there.

Joy: Oh yeah.

Claire: Because I don’t drive during rush… it’s like, aw, dang.

Joy: So commutes and remote work. I’d be really interested to hear from people if they’re looking forward to returning to the office or doing some type of hybrid model or if your place of employment did anything super unique. Let me know. I’m just very interested in that. And I’ve been reading a lot of Adam Grant, as I always do because I love him. But he is very smart. If you don’t know his work, Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist. He has a few books. He has a podcast. Just look him up. Google him. Great Ted Talks. But either he researched or published an article that referenced this research around Zoom fatigue and how people… like Zoom fatigue is real. Have I told you about this before? There’s only so much time that you can look at a screen and interact with humans on a screen before you just get kind of weirded out. Because you’re talking to a two-dimensional human, and the way that you have to have prolonged eye contact at a camera or just looking at a screen is not natural human interaction. You don’t always just stare at someone for that long of that period of time. So I just found that really fascinating, so now when I do team meetings, I tell my teams, “You can be on camera. You don’t have to be. I don’t care. Don’t burn yourself out.” Because my team has to be on screen all day every day with patients. So it’s really informed how I manage, too, of like, “You guys, you don’t want to be on screen? I don’t care. It’s fine.” So all of these that kind of come out, I’m sure there’s going to be more, and I just kind of geek out about that kind of stuff. About how this whole pandemic changed perhaps the future of the work space.

Claire: Speaking of other pandemic changes, we both traveled for the first time.

Joy: We sure did.

Claire: In the past two weeks.

Joy: And it just kind of happened that way, yeah.

Claire: Yeah. I already talked about this. I went to California to go visit my aunt. No, I didn’t talk about this because last week we did – 

Joy: Yeah, we did the voice memos. Yeah, okay, go ahead.

Claire: I went to California. My aunt passed away at the beginning of April. They had a memorial service for her in Santa Barbra two weekends ago at this point. So I went out there. And it kind of was a little bit of an excuse for me to just get to go somewhere, honestly. I really wanted to go because I wanted to see my other aunts. My brother was going. Which by the way, this came up this week when Joy traveled. We do bring it up occasionally, but just as a reminder, Joy and I do both have twin brothers.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: It’s completely random that that happened.

Joy: We planned it 30 years ago. Before we did the podcast, I interviewed you and I was like, “Do you have a twin brother? You do? Okay good. We can podcast together.”

Claire: I know. So Joy’s twin brother’s name is Jay. My twin brother’s name is James. 

Joy: James.

Claire: James. And they’re great. Being a twin is great. And yeah, we both just happen to have twin brothers. Anyways, so my other brother Peter was going to this memorial service, so I went out. One of my best friends lives in San Luis Obispo. So flew in and out of there. I had some United credits from a flight last year that we had to cancel, which made it so much easier to make that decision also. I’m going to stay with my friend. I’m going to borrow her car. We had flight credits. This trip is already paid for. This is going to be nice.

Joy: Just selfishly because I need to know the faces from pictures, was this your dad’s side or your mom’s side of the family?

Claire: This is my dad’s side.

Joy: Okay. Because I saw your other aunts and I was like, oh my gosh, they look so much like someone in your family but I didn’t know who.

Claire: So that’s the thing. On both sides of my family, it’s just nothing but tiny Irish women. 

Joy: Yeah. And really good teeth and hair. So I was like, “Is this is your mom’s side?” Because your mom has good teeth and hair, and everyone has good teeth and hair. So I’m like, I don’t know if this is dad’s side or mom’s side. They all are pretty.

Claire: My mom only has one brother, and I’ve only met him once. They’re on good terms, they just aren’t close.

Joy: Not close, yeah.

Claire: There’s no drama there. They just aren’t close. And my dad has… so he was the oldest of six. Several of his siblings have passed away.

Joy: Oh. That’s how my mom is.

Claire: Yeah. And so he now has his two remaining siblings are his sisters who are twins also. Anyway. The twins thing just goes around and around.

Joy: A lot of twins, yeah.

Claire: Yeah. So I was pretty apprehensive about actually traveling. I just didn’t really know. I’ve heard some horror stories. But I’ve also heard from just as many people, “Yeah, it was fine.” And I got an alert the night before from my United app that I thought was really interesting. It was like, hey, just to let you know, your –

Joy: Are you travel ready?

Claire: Exactly.

Joy: Are you travel ready? That’s what it asks you.

Claire: Oh, my mine was like, hey just to let you know your flight’s really full.

Joy: Oh, that’s what mine said too.

Claire: Yeah. And it offered to let me reschedule, which obviously I didn’t do because it’s going to have the same issue. But I thought that was interesting that they let you know. And it was a very small plane. The Denver to San Luis Obispo flight is like two and two. It’s just a little plane. And so it was fine. On the way out, no one was sitting next to me. And on the way back, there was someone sitting next to me but there was only one person on the row in front and back of me. So even though I got the alert both times saying the flight was full, it wasn’t actually full either time, which I appreciated. So if you guys are apprehensive about traveling, I found the experience to be pretty low key. Here’s my theory why. I feel like we are all already so conditioned to just accept rules in the airport that when it comes to keeping your mask on. I mean, there wasn’t a lot of social distancing happening, like on the escalator and stuff. But there was in the terminal, like at the gate, for me anyway. I feel like people are just used to following the rules in an airport and just not asking questions. No one has a podcast about why we shouldn’t have to take our shoes off at the airport. You know what I mean.

Joy: Is there one? [laughing]

Claire: It’s not controversial. 

Joy: It’s just not controversial. And if it is, you get kicked out of the airport.

Claire: That’s the thing. If you think it’s controversial, you’re welcome to think it’s controversial and you may leave.

Joy: You absolutely have that right and goodbye.

Claire: And goodbye. And you will not be flying today. This is a matter of federal security. And so I think that because we all just have come to accept that about airports that people were a lot less agro about being told that, “Hey, you need to pull your mask up” because they’re always told like, “Hey, you can’t bring a full-size shampoo bottle on here.” 

Joy: Right. You can’t. “Your bag weighs over 50 lbs., ma’am. Start packing.” 

Claire: Exactly. It’s like, we are all much more ready to accept absolutely way more ridiculous things. And so I only saw one or two people who were just blatantly not wearing their masks. And only a handful of other people who had the mask over the nose. 

Joy: See, that’s interesting because you have to wear a mask in the airport. So how did they get away with that?

Claire: I just mean I saw them walking with it pulled down to their chin.

Joy: Oh, pulled down.

Claire: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn’t see anyone straight up not wearing one.

Joy: Yeah, I didn’t either.

Claire: I saw a couple of people with it pulled down under their chin and then maybe a handful more with it under their nose. But I saw a couple people get talked to and have someone come over and be like, “You have to pull that up,” and they’re like, “Yeah, yeah, whatever.” And again, I think it’s because it’s not like you’re in a Dairy Queen or something where you’re going to go off on a rampage at this person making $7 an hour because you don’t think you should have to wear a mask. You’re in an airport and you are just happy to follow the rules.

Joy: Right, right. Scott and I were watching the news last week. As we always do, Lester Holt. And there was some report. I’m going to misquote it. But it was something along the lines of how the airlines have reported – let’s just pretend. I’m making up a number. So 200 customer incidents last year compared to 2,000 this year. And it’s not even June. The reason being – and I’m really kind of inflating that number, but I will say it was just a really huge jump from last year because now that there’s all these rules and mask wearing people on the planes are saying, “You don’t have to tell me what to do.” The “You don’t have to tell me what to do” type of people, so they’re running into that piece where airlines have a lot of rules that now these rules are getting, whatever… people, rights. Their rights are infringed upon. So that really made me mad because I’m like, these poor people who have to work at the airport and deal with these idiots who are like, “Mask is my right.”

Claire: It is totally your right to not wear a mask in the airport. Please –

Joy: Then don’t fly.

Claire: Yeah, then just don’t fly.

Joy: And maybe you should go buy a private jet if you want to follow your morals.

Claire: Just drive. Just drive. So you know, I think it was interesting. I was ready for it to not be because I know that – we’ve talked about this, that particularly in Colorado, that we live in this little bubble where you go to the store. The vast majority of people are wearing masks. You go to a gas station, you go anywhere in the Denver/Boulder area and people have by and large for really the whole past year been really good about wearing masks the whole time. But that’s not the case in a lot of places. So I was ready for the airport to feel like, here are all the people who aren’t wearing their masks.

Joy: I told Claire. I was texting you and I was like, “I’m traveling next week and I’m preparing myself to be really annoyed and judging people the whole time.”

Claire: But yeah, it was fine.

Joy: It was fine.

Claire: I was surprised by how fine it was. And then the flight was fine. Everyone was really pleasant. Everything smelled really strongly like cleaner.

Joy: They hand you an alcohol wipe when you get on the plane to wipe down your seat and the tray.

Claire: The one thing that I will say, and I know that I text you about this, that made me feel so nostalgic is that on my flight out there, there was a group of girls that were clearly coming back from a trip from Mexico. First of all, they were so sunburned. They all had their little gift bags that had like Spanish writing on it. And they were all wasted.

Joy: Oh, that’s so great. That’s so great.

Claire: And at one point, the pilot came on and wished one of them a happy 40th birthday.

Joy: Oh my God, that’s amazing.

Claire: And I was like, these girls, I want to be in their friend group. I want to just be wasted on an airplane coming home from Mexico right now. 

Joy: And the pilot within you a happy birthday, how do you pull that off?

Claire: But the girl was so drunk, she didn’t even hear him, so the other girl had to go apologize to the flight attendant. 

Joy and Claire: [laughing]

Claire: She’s like, “Thank you for doing that for my friend.” And she was like, “Did she even hear it?” She was like, “No, she didn’t.”

Joy: Can you do it again?

Claire: It was so cute. And when we got there, all their husbands were waiting there, and they all had this look on their face like, “Oh my God.”

Joy: That’s so cute.

Claire: This is what I miss. I just miss these moments, these glimpses into other people’s lives. Those girls were having so much fun.

Joy: So much fun. They’re on the plane so drunk.

Claire: Just wasted. It looked like so much fun.

Joy: Yeah, I was nervous. Most of you probably saw my stories. I went to Maryland to see my twin brother and his family, my nieces, my nephew, my parents were there. They flew out a few weeks ago, so we all kind of met and had a little family reunion. I was really nervous to fly because I was just like, oh my gosh, I haven’t done this is forever. I think sometimes flying in general causes anxiety. But when I got there, it kind of is like riding a bike. Just being at the airport, you’re like, oh, this is what I do. But the only thing that I feel like was a bad thing about that is I was operating in an airport with people who operate in the airport like we used to, like there’s crowds everywhere. The lines, there’s really not any distancing when you’re standing in line to get your ticket checked, going through security, on the train, or even on the plane, or lining up to give the gate attendant your ticket to get on the plane. Those things people weren’t social distancing whatsoever.

Claire: No.

Joy: But no one seemed to mind. And actually, I didn’t really care. Because I felt like everyone has a mask on. And I didn’t pay attention to every single person, but I even feel like on the plane there wasn’t anyone coughing or sneezing. No one was sick. We’re all healthy because we’ve been wearing masks for a year. 

Claire: One of the drunk girls was sitting on the row ahead of me, and she had brought a sandwich onto the plane and she asked every single person around her – probably just because she was drunk – “Are you guys okay? I’m taking my mask off to eat my sandwich.” We’re like, you eat your sandwich girlfriend.

Joy: That’s so cute. See, I didn’t do that. I was actually the person at the gate who sat down, I made sure there was no one around me, and I ate my sandwich and I had my mask off. In those instances, I don’t care if people are eating with their mask off. We need to eat. We need to have food. And by the way, a very nice man who’s my brother’s neighbor made me the most amazing barbecue sandwich to take on the plane, and that was not about to make that go to waste. So I sat at the gate. I ate my barbecue sandwich. I didn’t eat it on the plane because I was too embarrassed and nervous to think that it would smell, and I didn’t want to offend people.

Claire: Yeah, that’s a good call.

Joy: But yeah, I was like, I’m going to take my mask off and I’m going to eat my sandwich. But the things I guess I would say I noticed was the hand wipes when you get on the plane, how they tell you that the flight is full, the little announcements about being travel ready and if you have symptoms please don’t travel. Other than that, it was pretty uneventful.

Claire: It just felt very dialed in. I felt like I was fine. If you are traveling soon, if you’re worried about it, I would say the areas to avoid are escalators. If you can take an elevator instead. You know, they always have elevator access for strollers and wheelchairs. Get yourself in an elevator. 

Joy: It’s only four people though.

Claire: Right. If you’re in Denver, there’s not a lot you can do about being on the train. They’re not regularly being like, oh sorry the train is full.

Joy: I tried to hold onto things with my elbow.

Claire: You’re right next to people, and that’s kind of the issue.

Joy: Yeah, exactly.

Claire: But those were really the only two – and then security in the line, I felt like people were distancing. But once you actually got up to go into the TSA agent, you weren’t. But it felt very few and far between and pretty quick. You moved through those closely packed areas pretty quickly. I don’t consider myself to be necessarily a seasoned traveler. Granted, I was traveling by myself. But also, I have a friend that traveled this past week with a 7-month-old baby and her husband, and she said the same thing. “I felt fine. Everyone was wearing a mask. It was really pleasant.” And people definitely give you your space by the time you’re in the terminal.

Joy: Yeah. It was really funny thought because I had to rent a car because my brother lives in a very small town far away from any airport in Maryland. I was waiting in line to get my car, and I had to pre-register to just have it be a quick pick up. You basically go and pick up the car. I don’t have to pre-check or anything like that. And they didn’t have that ready, and they just had all the lines mixed up, and people were taking for freaking ever.

Claire: That’s like your nightmare.

Joy: And I was just sitting there, and I was feeling myself getting so impatient. And I’m like, when was the last time I was in a line for a rental car getting super impatient. So I just had to laugh it off. But I was like, oh my gosh, it’s been so long since I’ve been super impatient in a line. But the other thing was I stayed in a hotel because my parents were staying at my brother’s house, and I am not about to kick out my 15-year-old nephew out of his room. I will not be the aunt who sleeps in his bed. “Sorry, you’re sleeping on the couch,” even though my sister-in-law offered that. Heck no, I’m not kicking Connor out of his bedroom. I’ll just get a hotel. So I stayed in a hotel, and the thing that they’re doing now, at least for this place that I stayed at – it was a Hilton – is they give you a piece of paper that’s like, “Tell us what you need. Attach it to the door, and by 10am we’ll have what you need to the door.” They put everything in a sealed plastic bag, so they don’t come in your room at all the entire time you’re there. And you just leave your trash outside your door, and you leave this little piece of paper to check off the things that you need. They put it all in a nice little bag and you bring it in your room, so they’re not entering your room at all throughout the entire stay.

Claire: Oh, that’s really interesting. I like that. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: I am laughing thinking about you standing in that line because I’ve been in rental car lines with you when you’re really impatient, and I can just imagine you standing there. And I don’t know if you know that you do this, but when you stand impatient in lines, you habitually refresh the home screen of your phone. So I can just imagine you standing there tapping your phone a hundred thousand times. 

Joy: And I start to pace back and forth. I’m like a child. I just start moving around.

Claire: Push your little zebra print roller bag around. It’s so funny also remembering the things that you do when you travel that are little habits that you only have when you travel.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: I’m interested to see how many more of these experiences we will have in the coming year when something feels like a big deal and then halfway into it you just kind of forget that it ever was weird

Joy: Yeah, it’s kind of like I said. It felt like it was just coming back, like riding a bike type of thing where you’re like, I haven’t done this in forever. But this is how it goes. It feels so familiar because I’ve done it so many times.

Claire: And that’s the same way I felt like the first time we ate at a restaurant or the first time that I stayed in a hotel. Where I was like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I’m doing this.” And then my brain was immediately like, “No, no, no, no, this is normal.”

Joy: But it was great. By the way, everywhere I went in Maryland, the city that I was in, everyone wore masks and it was totally fine.

Claire: Yeah, I was going to ask. So you were with your mom for Mother’s Day. What did you guys do?

Joy: Well, I left yesterday, which was Mother’s Day, but we were there the whole week and celebrated Mother’s Day. So my sister-in-law is an amazing cook. It’s so funny because every time I go to my brother’s house, I have this weird sliding doors moment where I’m like, this could have been my life. Our lives are completely different where he has three kids. His wife stays at home, takes care of the kids, cooks all day. And it’s very much like military life. If he has to move, they all move type of thing. But she’s an amazing cook, and so she made us dinner almost every night. Which she’s so funny, I’m like, “Krishna, you do not have to do this every single day.” But she loves it. Made us breakfast. So we had a really nice dinner and we went on the boat. So my brother moved last year to a house that’s on the creek that feeds into the river. So they have this awesome dock and their own little boat, and we went kayaking, and it was just amazing. So we had a really good time with my parents there. My dad is just so funny. He was playing soccer with my nephew. They all play soccer, so we watched their soccer games. We went to barbecue at the neighbor’s house. They have just very cute small-town life. We went to the base to see all the airplanes my brother works on, which is so funny because you can’t take pictures in there because everything’s very, very classified.

Claire: Right, top secret.

Joy: There was a room within a room that was all boarded up. There were signs around it that were like, “Do not have classified conversations in this room” or something where I’m like, “Jay, what are you talking about in there?” But yeah, he has a very cool job. But yeah, it was great. It was really good. We had a good time. I cried a lot when I left. I was talking to Mom Sandy about this yesterday because I was just bawling when I said goodbye to my family. That cry that you’re just like, “Damn it, I can’t stop crying.” You want to just kind of be kind of crying and kind of teary.

Claire: You want to wipe one glistening tear off your face, not –

Joy: I want to just be like, “Aw, I’m going to miss you guys.” I was just inconsolable, couldn’t even talk crying.

Claire: Aw.

Joy: I think what happened was my brother, he just said something silly. He and I have that relationship where it’s truly kind of a secret language where he and I can talk – like side conversations and no one will understand. But he said something that just made me be like, “Oh, Jay.” And right before I was leaving when I went to hug him, I just started bawling. And then my mom starting crying.

Claire: Of course she did.

Joy: And then my dad started crying. And my dad’s way of showing love is he gives love punches. So there’s this joke in my family because whenever he likes you, he just hits you in the arm. So he was giving me love punches, and I was just bawling. I was telling Sandy, “Why am I so dang emotional? I’ve said goodbye to my family plenty of times. This is not new to say bye to my brother and my family.” And she’s like, “You know, the way I’ve been thinking about this lately” – because she’s like, “I hear you” – “is I’ve just been really angry. I think it’s the anger that 2020 brought.” It took away so much from us, and I think in that moment I realized how much it took away, at least for me personally. I had planned a trip to see my family right when the shut downs happened. And just the whole year of not being able to see my nieces and nephew who grow like every single day when they’re that age. So that I think just all of it, and not being able to see their new house when they were moving.

Claire: Right, just missing out on those little things that in the moment you’re like, “Oh this is no big deal. I’ll see their house one day.” But then when you actually do, you realize, wow this was… yeah.

Joy: And I was able to spend a good five days there. Seeing everything that you’re missing out on all that time and the fact that a whole year had gone by where I hadn’t been able to see them. I think that’s just like – I feel like that’s when the floodgates opened, where I was like [sigh] I just can’t control it. This is so sad. I was just like, yeah, I’m probably pretty angry. I know I’m angry. There’s a lot of reasons I’m angry from 2020. But we’re not going to talk about that right now because I don’t need to go on a rant. It was a beautiful moment.

Claire: It was a beautiful moment.

Joy: Yeah, totally.

Claire: Yeah, I’ve had that moment a lot where I realize… I have these small – I mean, some of them are small and some of them are not so small. We had to cancel a trip last April to go see my grandparents in Arkansas, and a month later my grandma passed away. You know, I’m never going to forget about that. I had a chance to see her, and I wasn’t able to. And then she suddenly passed away. I think a lot also about my dad who has been in remission for lung cancer for a long time, and then a couple months ago had a scan that wasn’t clear and is now back in treatment. And just thinking, we miss out on a whole – he lives right down the road, but we only saw him maybe five or six times, probably not even, all of last year and really feeling that missed time. I think that it puts into the perspective the fact that we all have these little pieces of grief that especially if you’re somebody who didn’t lose a job or you didn’t lose someone to COVID, you can kind of feel – and we’ve talked about this a thousand times, this comparative suffering – but I feel like it’s been kind of easy to ignore it because it’s been like you don’t know what you have until it’s gone. But sort of in reverse. You don’t know what you’re missing until you get it back.

Joy: Yes. Totally, totally, totally. And I think that’s what hit me was that piece. Even just being able to travel and be on a plane with people and see people. There were moments where I was just driving in my rental car by myself blasting music. Looking around, it totally reminded me too of when we were in Canada. And I was just like, this feels so good to have an adventure. Even though I was just going to see my family. An adventure.

Claire: Get out of your house, get out of your zip code.

Joy: Very much so. It was super emotional. So I can see how people might have that reaction. I mean, if you’re super sensitive like me to where I’m just like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe we’re here again.”

Claire: So I want to talk a little bit more about Mother’s Day because we get this question quite a lot and we talk about it a lot, but apparently not enough because everybody –

Joy: Do we talk about it a lot?

Claire: We’ve talked about it a good handful of times. Around the decision to have kids, not to have kids. I obviously have kids. Joy obviously does not. You are childless by choice is the new way to say it, I suppose. 

Joy: Is it? That’s so funny. By the way, I hate every term for women or anyone, any person, any human with no kids. I don’t like any of it. 

Claire: You just don’t have kids.

Joy: I just don’t have kids.

Claire: I appreciate that about you because you’re like, “I’m not a dog mom.” 

Joy: Please do not ever – here’s the thing I can’t stand. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it until I die. If I say, “Happy Mother’s Day” to you, you don’t have to say, “And Happy Dog Mom to you.” I don’t need a consolation prize. I don’t feel left out. It’s your day. I don’t need to be a dog mom. I have dogs. I am not a dog mom. I don’t have fur babies. I will never –

Claire: I have dogs. I am a dog owner.

Joy: I have animals. If that’s you, that’s great. That will never be me. I just feel like I have helped so many of my friends with their children. And my family, I’ve been babysitting since I was eight. It is not the same thing. Doing motherhood, birthing a child is a completely different universe. I get it. Everyone wants to just be cute. Not trying to take your cute thing and make it serious. I’m always like, I don’t need a consolation prize of, “You’re a dog mom.” I don’t need it. I don’t need it. Okay. Done.

Claire: I follow this woman on Instagram called @cleanfoodiecravings I think is her Instagram handle. She does this hilarious thing where she’s like, “Send me your unpopular opinions” and she posts them with just this look on her face, like “uh oh.” Like literally, she’ll post them as she’s drinking her smoothie.

Joy: Right, like, unpopular opinion.

Claire: Right. One of them was like, “You are not a dog mom. You did not give birth to your pug. Please stop calling yourself a dog mom.” And she just had this look on her face.

Joy: Yeah, it’s going to be unpopular, but I agree. 

Claire: I know.

Joy: You have an animal.

Claire: Which also, you guys, we know that there are a lot of things out there like human moms who did not give birth. Just because you are a birthing person, it does not make you a mom.

Joy: Oh absolutely, yes.

Claire: We’re not saying you had to… but it’s not the same thing with a dog.

Joy: Raising a child, yes.

Claire: Is not the same thing as raising a pet. We have talked about in the past your decision not to have kids and my decision to have kids. It’s just worth revisiting every once in a while. We don’t have to get into the whole thing. My very short story is I’ve always known I wanted kids. I didn’t realize that it was unusual for someone to be so convicted of that until I got older and listened to my friends really question like, “I don’t know, do I want kids?” Have you not always just known you wanted kids? So for me it’s just never been a question in my mind. And that’s the end of that story.

Joy: Period, the end. 

Claire: Period, the end. I have kids. 

Joy: Yeah, mine’s a little more complex and a windy road. But the bottom line is, it was more… even looking back, my answer would probably be different when I was 35 versus now, which I’m 43. When Scott and I got married, we were always on the same page of ambivalent, and then we just agreed to check in every year, meaning we would check in and be like, “Hey, how are you with the kid thing? What are you thinking? Let’s check in.” And then when I was 35, I will never forget it. I think those moments when you have really high, heightened emotions are the ones that stick with you. Clearly this was one of them. Because it was my 35th birthday. We were in Los Angeles. He took me to Santa Monica. It was a work trip. But we were at dinner and he was like, “So, we’re both turning 35.” We had both turned 35 at the time. “We should probably decide now yes or no. If you’re ready, I’m ready.” And I was like, “Are you ready?” Like, “Wait a minute, did you change your mind?” I was kind of at this point of, “No. No, no, no, no, no.” It was just a strong “no” that I’m like, well that’s telling. There was no “yes” in my mind where I’m like, “Um, could we talk about this next year?” I just had this really freak out moment. And he’s like, “Okay, well if you’re totally unsure, I could go either way.” And truly, truly he meant this. Scott’s not a person who’s going to be in ten years like, “You took children away from me.” I know him. He will not do that. But he’s like, “Okay, if you’re for sure not wanting kids, then let’s do this. At least we think about it very seriously this year. Really put it in the forefront of your mind. Don’t just put it away and forget about it. Really, really, really think about it. At least we can promise each other that we’ll think about it seriously.” I was like, “Fine, I’ll totally do that.” I talked with some of my friends at the time. I talked with some of my closest friends and got their advice. Here’s the funny thing, one of my best friends – I’ll never forget – I always felt like there was some, not secret, but almost people around me had an idea about it. “I wish Joy would have kids.” 

Claire: That everyone else around you had an opinion about it.

Joy: That everyone else around me was like, “I wish you would…” I told my best friend one day, I was like, “Melanie, is there some secret that one day that you’re going to tell me, ‘Oh my God, Joy. I’m so glad you had kids.’” You know, if I was to have kids. And she was just like, “No.” Because she has two boys, and she’s like, “There’s nothing like it, but also you’re going to fine without kids.” And she totally changed my mind that day. I had just put this pressure on me that someone had this idea that I was just missing out on something that everyone was just so waiting for me to make the decision. I’m so glad we had that conversation because it just kind of relieved me of this weird made-up story in my head. But over the years, I just kept asking Scott, and we were still in that ambivalent place. We feel like our lives are full. We don’t want to go into something like this with a “I guess we’ll do this.” We weren’t super passionate about the decision, which told me a lot. I just kept thinking in my head – if you think this way – I don’t think that’s my purpose in life. So we just kept deciding not to. And every year, we would check back in. As I got older, it’s like, well, this ship is starting to sail. And I think for women who make that choice – first of all, if it’s a choice that you’re making, meaning some people don’t have children and perhaps they can’t have children. There’s a lot of nuance to this conversation, so I certainly don’t want to be myopic in the way I’m talking about it because I do acknowledge there’s so many other angles. But what I can say to women who are on the fence about it is, you’re never going to make a wrong decision. It’s just the decision that feels right for you. I felt so conflicted because I felt like there was a right answer. The thing I hear most from women about this conversation is, “I’m going to get to the end of my life and regret it.” I have a lot of friends who are older. When I was in my 30’s, one of my dearest friends was in her 50’s at the time. We’d have this conversation. She decided not to have kids, and she would always kind of say the same thing where she’s like, “I’m fine Joy. I have a happy life.” But that is to me the thing I hear the most of, what happens? Who’s going to take care of me when I’m older? Or, what if I look back at my life and regret it? I just can’t live my life that way. I could die tomorrow. I know it sounds horrible.

Claire: What if you look back and you’re like, “You wished you’d become an astronaut.” You could say that about every single decision that you’ve ever made.

Joy: Yeah, I just can’t live my life that way. And I don’t ever want to live my life of planning for when I’m 80. I just can’t. I can’t. So that is something that I don’t think a lot about. Again, not to be morbid, but I’m like, who knows if I’m going to live until I’m 80. And that’s not the reason why I would want to have children, because you’re going to take care of me when I’m older. Who knows? I just am not going to worry about that right now. I just can’t plan my life that way. Things will be figured out. You have family where you have family. That is where we came to the decision. I just want to make sure that everyone out there who’s listening who may be going through something similar, it’s just not a linear path, and it’s also not a yes-no decision. The thing that I always knew for sure was that we decided not to have kids, but I was never like a “heck no” person. I was always just like, “no.” Because I never wanted to be like the absolutely not negative vibe. I was just kind of like, “No, that’s just not something we want to do. We don’t want to have kids.”

Claire: I think it’s interesting too. I read a lot about this and I hear about it from friends who decided not to have kids, and especially from friends who have always known, “No, without a shadow of a doubt, I do not want kids” and the pushback they get from people in their lives when they say that. I feel like a lot of women who are really clear in their minds of, “No, I know for a fact I don’t want kids. I never wanted kids. It’s not that I don’t like kids.” There’s so many narratives around that. “Well, you must just not like kids.” Who doesn’t just flat out not like kids?

Joy: Yeah, very few people.

Claire: Or that you’re somehow not as nurturing or you’re not as feminine. There must be some piece missing that keeps you from wanting kids. Which is obviously not true at all. I think that we as a society are getting better about talking about that, but I think it’s still very much been this prevalent mindset that if you don’t want kids, then either, A, those women are told, “You’ll change your mind.” And I know I’ve talked about my friend who tried to get a hysterectomy. And it wasn’t like elective elective. She was having some really severe endometriosis or something. It wasn’t quite to the point where they were going to give her a hysterectomy. She was like, “Can I just get a hysterectomy?” And they were like, “Well, what if you want kids?” And she was like, “I don’t want kids.” And they were like, “Well, what if you change your mind?” And she was like, “I’m not going to change my mind. I’ve never wanted kids.” And the doctors were like, “Well, we’re not going to do that. You never know.” And she was like, “I know. Listen to me. I know I don’t want kids.” To this day, she has not gotten a hysterectomy because none of the doctors would be like, “Okay, great. I believe you, you don’t want kids.” It’s just so unbelievable to people. 

Joy: I think we’re always looking for – at least me – looking for validation. For someone to just be like, “You can make that decision.” I think what it is, is it’s such a strong sliding doors moment. That’s just not like a slight sliding door. It’s a completely different life. And I remember going to see Elizabeth Gilbert talk, I don’t know, six years ago. I remember her saying, “Being a mother’s not a job requirement for women. Just because you’re a woman doesn’t mean you have…” There’s just so many complexities to that. Because we can bear children doesn’t mean you have to bear children. So I get it, everyone out there who may be tossing that around in their mind. It’s not an easy thing to just come to. I’m not going to be the one to give you the final answer about it, but I hope that at least hearing how we kind of came to that decision helps you know that be confident in what your feelings are. It’s really easy for outside voices to get in or sway your decision or make you doubt your decision. And don’t ever doubt your decision. It’s not something I was confident in, even in my late 30’s. You kind of really struggle with it.

Claire: Yeah, I remember when Miles was born, we had a conversation about it. I definitely got the sense that it was like, oh, this is still a question in your mind.

Joy: It totally is. Yeah, yeah. It was for quite some time.

Claire: But not a question in your mind of, will I regret this. Just to reiterate that. It’s the question in your mind of like… I don’t even think it’s the question in your mind of, is this the right decision.

Joy: Here’s the thing. How can I not think about what my kids would look like? Like, I hang out with one of my other girlfriends who has a couple kids and she just had another baby, and I was at her house last weekend. We were playing with her little daughter and her little boy. She’s just such a rockstar mom. She’s so funny. But I think about that. Because that could easily be something that you manifest and create in your life, it’s hard not to think about that. It’s hard not to compare.

Claire: Absolutely.

Joy: That’s human. That’s totally human.

Claire: I think it’s good just to talk about it. Also normalize the… when I was talking about how it kind of surprised me when I got into my mid to late 20’s to hear all my friends being like, “Well I don’t know, do I want kids?” It just never occurred to me that you wouldn’t just know. Because that was just my experience. And that sounds so silly and simplified, but that was just my experience. Brandon, that was our conversation from day one. Do you want kids? Yep. Me too. Yep. Okay, great.

Joy: Yeah, done, done.

Claire: All my older siblings, they all have kids. It just, for me, it was surprising to me to learn how big of a question mark it is for so many people. So I think it’s good to talk about it because I, from firsthand experience, know that it’s not talked about very much.

Joy: Well the thing that I have also thought about quite often, and I tossed this around quite a bit when I was seriously thinking about having kids or at least considering it, the year that we were thinking about it, was a lot contributed to my really… I don’t want to say “aversion” because that’s too strong of a negative word. But really, my decision to not even think about that in my early 20’s was I was around a lot of girls who were getting married really young and having babies really young for what I wanted for my life. And I remember thinking at that age all you want to do is get far away from the things that you’re like, oh I don’t want to be anything like that. Not saying that’s bad. At that time, I was just like, I don’t want to be that and if I stay here, I’m afraid that’s the path I’ll take. That’s not the path that I wanted. So I think a lot about that, about how that contributed to my decision and then really being focused on making a career for myself. And then my career took me in to working with juveniles and families and children and adolescents and seeing all the struggles they had. I was working with families, children, and adolescents every single day with all of their problems. I remember being like, “This is really tiring. I don’t know if I want this.” And it’s not to say that that robbed me of having a family. But I’m just saying that had a lot to do with me being like, I think I’d be okay without all of this. So there’s a lot of things I think of, of oh my gosh, did that just steer me away from having kids. I don’t think that’s it either. I really don’t. It really is mostly trying to rationalize it because you think that you’re weird for not wanting kids. And you’re not weird.

Claire: You’re not weird. There are other reasons you’re weird. You are weird, but that’s not what makes you weird.

Joy: We’re all weird. Still wearing glitter, it’s fine.

Claire: It’s fine. Okay, so before we wrap up, it’s almost summer. Do you have any favorite summer products that you are bringing into the rotation right now?

Joy: Well, okay, I wouldn’t say summer products. But everyone, I know I’ve talked about New Wash. Maybe I talked about it a couple months ago. Super loving New Wash. If you’re considering it, try it. I think it’s N-E-W, just like New Wash. It’s basically a really good conditioner-shampoo for your hair, but it’s just all in one. It’s great. I don’t know how to explain it. It doesn’t strip your hair of oils and all that crap, so you don’t have to put conditioner in. It’s completely changed my hair. I had really thin hair when I first got Graves’ so I was trying not to mess it up, and it’s fantastic. I love that product. As far as summer products, I really like cream blushes because I don’t like powder on my face when it’s hot outside. I think Target has a brand – I think it’s Milani – has a really good cream blush that I’ve been using. This was funny. Target also has those nail stickers. It’s the stickers that look like nail polish. You put it on your nail, and then you file off the rest of it, and it sticks on your nail like nail polish.

Claire: Yeah, do those work?

Joy: Totally works if you take everything off your nail, like oils. So you have to rub your –

Claire: Really strip them off first.

Joy: You have to rub your fingernails with either nail polish remover or alcohol. And because I got the alcohol wipes on the plane, I brought my nail strips on the plane, so I was doing the nail strips. Because they don’t smell. It’s literally a sticker that you put on your fingernail.

Claire: That’s hilarious.

Joy: So I was doing my nails on the plane, and the stewardess was like, “Oh my gosh. Do those work really well?” She was very invested in my nail polish progress. So after I was done, she made me show her. She was like, “I’m going to get some of those.” So highly recommend. You really have to do it right. It’s all about the application, so you have to make sure that your nails are clean or else they’ll just peel right off. So those are great. And then you know what I really miss wearing is lipstick. I really miss wearing lipstick. Lip masks, there’s just no point to that.

Claire: Yeah, it just gets on the inside of your mask.

Joy: It makes me so sad, yeah. You can get stains, but still what’s the point? No one sees you.

Claire: Yeah, no one sees you. I had a meeting in the office last week. Was it last week? Time runs together. I think it was last week. It was right before I left. I was like, “I’m going to put on lipstick.” Then I was like, “Oh, I don’t have to, actually. Never mind.” Which I’m not a big makeup wearer. And right now, my chin is just so broken out. I’m like, thank God for masks.

Joy: For masks, yeah. Totally.

Claire: I don’t have to worry about this. I don’t have to wish I had learned how to wear concealer.

Joy: I really can’t wait to get my hair done again. I’m really into flip flops. 

Claire: Oh, I have one. I have one. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Okay, Birkenstock has this sandal now that’s almost made out of a harder Crocs material.

Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Claire:  I think it’s their Arizona line.

Joy: And they’re different colors.

Claire: And they’re super fun bright colors. My friend Steph had them when I went to California, and I wore them and I loved them, so I’m going to order myself some. And they’re not that expensive. They’re like $45.

Joy: Yeah, they’re like $40. You can even get them on Nordstrom Rack.

Claire: Yeah, and they come in really fun bright colors. So if you are in the market for a slip-on summer sandal. I have my Chaco’s, but those are a commitment to put on sometimes. You got to get the little strap on your toe. It’s a thing. You can just slip them on and walk out the door because your dog got out of the fence.

Joy: And lastly, I will say that I saw Busy Philipps post about her Lele Sadoughi mask. I think it was about a month ago where she had a sale.

Claire: Is that a band?

J :Yeah. Is that a band? So if you don’t follow Busy Philipps, she always has the cutest face masks. I never thought I’d say that sentence like two years ago. But she always posts herself with these cute masks. And then one day she’s like, “Oh, we’re having a sale. You should go on there. It’s not an ad, I just really like them.” And I know she does because she always wears these masks. And headbands, the headbands are so cute. I really am worried though. I don’t want to buy headbands because I feel like once you’re in, it just squeezes your head, you get a headache. Headbands are super cute, but I –

Claire: Could you just take it off?

Joy: Yeah, but what’s your cute style all day? You really want to commit to a headband. Anyway. So I got a couple of the Lele Sadoughi – I’ll just post it in the show notes/episode notes. If you just go in the episode notes of this podcast wherever you’re listening, you’ll see the link. On Instagram it’s @lele_sadoughi. Lele Sadoughi. Really great masks. I wore it on the plane the whole time. Super comfortable, and they have really cute designs. I’m a fan. Because masks start to really pull on my ears and they hurt. And then they had these really cute chains, like eye glass chains or you can attach it to your mask.

Claire: I like the mask chain concept.

Joy: Super cute. They sell those as well, and I got one. Really cute. Highly recommend for the masks because I put it on my glasses and it really pushed my face down. A little too heavy for the glasses.

Claire: I still love the Cotopaxi masks. 

Joy: Oh yeah, you do like those.

Claire: They have a nose bridge. It’s nice. I find them to be very lightweight. I’m trying to think if I have any other products other than one random Birkenstock.

Joy: Yeah, do you have any lotion or hair stuff or… clothing?

Claire: No.

Joy: Did we find any underwear recommendations?

Claire: No. No. So our washing machine died a couple of weeks ago. It’s been leaking for months, and then finally the leak was just getting worse and worse. We finally had someone come out and look at it, and he’s like, “Yeah, it’s an end-of-life diagnosis for this washing machine.” It was leaking all over the entire laundry room every time we ran it. We were just running really small loads to mitigate the problem. We were just putting towels around it. There are so many people who live here, we can’t not do laundry. And we ended up getting a new washing machine. It got delivered a week ago on Wednesday, and it leaked when we ran it. It’s not the hook up. It’s the machine. They can’t come back out to fix it until this Friday, so ten days after it was delivered. So my mom just moved into a new house that’s like a mile away from here. For the last week, I went over to her house.

Joy: Oh, she did?

Claire: Yeah. You didn’t know that?

Joy: A mile away?

Claire: I thought I told you that. Yeah, they just moved this weekend.

Joy: No. That’s so exciting.

Claire: It’s awesome. So last weekend I went over there and did all of our laundry. And this week, I was like, I’m sending your laundry out. I can’t. I can’t even.

Joy: Oh my gosh, you do like four loads of laundry a day. My sister-in-law is doing laundry constantly.

Claire: It’s unreal. The amount of laundry we go through is unreal. So all that to say, if I thought my underwear shortage before was bad, it has reached –

Joy: New levels. Peak levels.

Claire: I was literally hand washing one pair of underwear at a time in the bathroom sink for the next day. Like, a pair of leggings and a pair of underwear, I would hand wash in the sink the night before for the past week.

Joy: Having no laundry for that long makes me nervous, and I only have two people in my household who are adults and don’t change five times a day.

Claire: And you guys have a lot of clothes. Actually the kids have been fine because they have unreal amounts of clothes. And Brandon wears scrubs at work, so he’s fine. And he also has a thousand pairs of underwear. I’m really the one who’s suffering here because I only own like four pairs of leggings and five pairs of underwear. And I’m like, why am I doing this to myself? I just need to go buy some more clothes. Anyway.

Joy: So I do remember something that someone sent, a recommendation. The brand Boody from Australia. They said that that’s really good.

Claire: I’ll check it out.

Joy: Check that out. Haven’t tested it. I just want to get a bunch of things and test it out. And I noticed Target is selling Thinx underwear.

Claire: Oh yeah.

Joy: Last one from Target I will say is I love JoyLab’s tank tops. They have this really cute tank top that is super breathable material, fits really well. It’s kind of a crop top but not super crop. Let’s be real, I’m 43. I’m not going to be wearing a crop top. But it’s short enough and it’s the most breathable. I bought three.

Claire: Is this the one that you had on that was like fluorescent?

Joy: Yes. Florescent… no. Those were the bike shorts. Actually those were JoyLab bike shorts, which I also bought. But they have these tank tops that match with that line, and they are amazing. I bought one a few months ago. Then I went and got another one because I was like, oh I like this color. Now I have three because they are super comfortable. And I don’t spend a ton of money on workout clothes. Every once in a while, I’ll do Lulu. Or Outdoor Voices, I haven’t purchased anything in a while because we’ve just been working out at home. Yeah, those are my latest products. Check them out. Okay. Last plug – not a plug, but just update. For all my Handmaid’s Tale people out there, I really hope this season ends. I will only give this one very brief not at all detailed reaction is if you did not scream multiple times in Episode 3 and have to walk out of the room –

Claire: Are you even watching?

Joy: Are you even watching? And I am very envious of your courage and strength because I’ve never seen an episode where I got so emotional and where I got so freaked out. I had to get up, leave the room, and yelled in the other room while Scott was in the other room.

Claire: And Scott’s probably just laughing hysterically in the other room.

Joy: So my little review though is Elisabeth Moss did a fantastic job. She directed that episode, and it was fantastic. But this season I think is moving in a good direction. I’m really emotionally invested in that show because once you’re in – they have put me through so much torture, I’m getting out of this show. I’m not going to just give up now. Okay, then on a light note Shrill season three just dropped, and it’s fantastic so far. I’m three episodes in. I can’t wait to finish. Really, really good. Anything else?

Claire: That’s it for today. No, that is it.

Joy: That’s it for this Thursday.

Claire: We’ll talk to you guys next week. If you are interested in supporting the podcast, you may do so in a variety of ways. One way is by going to Double Under Wonder and getting yourself a fancy new jump rope. You can customize it. Guys, these are so cute. We have the most amazing stories. 

Joy: They’re the best. The best.

Claire: Somebody sent me a DM on my personal Instagram and was like, “Hey, just to let you know, I ordered a jump rope from them with your code. And I don’t know if I didn’t understand the sizing correctly or what, but when it showed up it was completely the wrong size. And I emailed them, and they immediately refunded me, immediately got me the right size rope. They were just so wonderful to work with.” They’re so cute. It’s just this really small little brand. So go to doubleunderwonder.com. The discount code is JOY. Get yourself a new jump rope. You can also check out Eat to Evolve. That is the prepared meals company that we have been testing out lately. They send us meals.

Joy: Oh, I love them.

Claire: I love them. They are so good. Their snacks, I just ate a whole bag of their smoked maple pecans earlier today. So good.

Joy: I had the paleo balls on the plane. I ate the whole bag because I was like, “I need snacks.”

Claire: Yes. I love that they have snacks. Why don’t more meal prep companies have snacks?

Joy: Yeah, they have sacks. Snacks. 

Claire: Sacks.

Joy: Sacks. And snacks.

Claire: So check them out. Eat to Evolve. The discount code is JOYCLAIRE15. 

Joy: Support the podcast.

Claire: Support the podcast. Leave a review. Subscribe. Tell your friend.

Joy: A five-star review.

Claire: A five-star review.

Joy: Say nice things.

Claire: Be nice to us.

Joy: If you’re mad and not want to listen anymore, don’t announce the exit. Just go to show some love. Five stars would be great. That’s all my heart can handle.

Claire: [laughing] Thank you for helping Joy’s emotional stability by only being nice –

Joy: I read some recent ones where I’m like, “I’m just going to turn this off.”

Claire: I’m going to leave this here. So go and balance out the haters for Joy. Leave us positive reviews. We love you guys, and we’ll talk to you next week.

Joy: Bye guys.

Claire: Bye.

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