Meghan Markle and Oprah interview, Claire’s advice on becoming a parent, Netflix-watching, and which cult we would join.
Noelle Tarr and Claire Koch episode
Pearl Jam and Miscarriages GGW Episode
This is Joy & Claire Episode 65: Curtain Excitement
Episode Date: March 11, 2021
Audio Length: 51:37 minutes
Note: Page 6: Delete the highlighted banter if desired.
Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.
Claire: And this is Claire.
Joy: And this is [singing] Joy and Claire. Hello.
Claire: [singing] Welcome.
Joy: This is the new intro song.
Claire: Da da dada, da da dada. It’s Joy and Claire!
Joy: Jazz hands.
Claire: Jazz hands. So many jazz hands.
Joy: Oh my gosh.
Claire: We’re feeling a little loopy.
Joy: We are feeling very loopy, like right out of the gate I just threw in a little “we shall record,” and then we started having British accents and I started laughing and saying how much I miss seeing people. So that’s where I am today. How about you? You’re sunburnt.
Claire: Yeah, Joy was like, “You look tan.” No. I am not tan. I am sunburned. This happens to me every year at around this time when we have fool’s spring. If you live in a state that has fool’s spring, then you know what I’m talking about.
Joy: Yeah, not “full,” “fool.” Like April Fool’s Day.
Claire: Like fool’s gold. Fool’s spring. Does everyone know the phrase fool’s gold, right?
Joy: I hope so. I mean, growing up in Arizona, we loved to pan for fool’s gold.
Claire: Yes. In Colorado, same. If you live in a gold rush state, chances are you know what fool’s gold is.
Joy: And then when you’re a kid panning for gold, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I got gold.”
Claire: And then you’re like, “Eh, it’s Formica.” It’s not even Formica. Formica’s the countertops. It’s just mica. We’re in the middle of fool’s spring right now where it’s high-50’s to mid-high-60’s. But then we’re supposed to have a significant snow storm this weekend. So this is what March is like in Colorado.
Joy: This is March in Colorado where last weekend was so nice.
Claire: So nice, and then the high today is 68, high tomorrow is 66. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, no.
Joy: This is your weather report.
Claire: So excited.
Joy: I mean, as we get older though, I talk about the weather to my friends all the time. It’s a unifier. Everyone loves to talk about the weather.
Claire: What else do we have to talk about right now?
Joy: Nothing, nothing at all.
Claire: Did I already tell this story about how one of the people –
Joy: Tell it again because I need to hear someone talking.
Claire: We need connections.
Joy: Tell me another story again.
Claire: Somebody I work with, they got new curtains. I made a comment about it in a meeting, and he sent me an IM and he was like, “Are they too much? People keep asking about them.” I was like, “No, Eric. It’s just that no one literally has anything else to talk about besides your new curtains.”
Joy: Yeah, it’s very true. It’s very true. Anything is… weather… I don’t know what else we talk about, really.
Claire: I got this new background in my office. People commented on it for weeks. “Oh my gosh, are you at home? That’s amazing.” I was like, hmm, yes. I’m a WFH influencer now.
Joy: Oh my gosh, WFH.
Joy: Oh my goodness, yeah. So speaking of British accents, I watched half of the Oprah interview with Meghan and Harry.
Claire: Oh, I was like, “Where is she going with this?”
Joy: Yeah, so many ways. Did she finally read Harry Potter? What’s going on?
Claire: Are we talking about British Baking Show? Okay, Meghan Markle, Oprah, bomb shell interview, go. As you guys probably know, I have only interacted with this through other people’s Instagram posts.
Joy: Other people’s Instagram posts. And so being my celebrity obsession, I was very excited about this interview. I knew that the slam dunk contest was on the same night, the All-Star Game that Scott watches every year. Ever since I’ve known him, it’s a tradition for us. So I’m just watching because he loves it so much and because he loves it, and it is really fun to watch. So we DVR’d it, and out of the gate Scott’s like, “Really?” He’s very skeptical about this interview. Scott doesn’t get skeptical about many things.
Claire: Right, he’s not like a skeptical guy.
Joy: He doesn’t have strong opinions about celebrities. So he kind of starts rolling his eyes. I always call it hot breath. I’m like, “Don’t give me hot breath,” because whenever he’s watching something, I can hear him in the background either making fun of it or being like [heavy exhale].
Claire: He like starts panting.
Claire: It’s weird, but okay, go on.
Joy: So he starts giving this attitude. I’m like, “What’s wrong?” He’s like, “They’re the royals. What are you complaining about?” I’m like, “Excuse me?” So I start listing all the things that Meg has been through, and obviously he doesn’t follow celebrity culture. So he’s kind of giving me crap about it. So I watched the first half because first of all, it was two hours long. Yeah, I’m not kidding. And there were so many darn commercials because CBS had the capital on this whole thing. There were many, many commercials. I’m sure they made a ton of money because of it, but I made it through the first half because it was late and I wanted to go to bed. I watched on my watch watch how long the interview actually was, and for an hour –
Claire: Your watch watch?
Joy: My wrist watch. My actual watch.
Claire: Got it.
Joy: Not the DVR clock.
Claire: Watch watch.
Joy: An hour of DVR was like 25 minutes of an interview.
Claire: Got it.
Joy: So I was like, okay, I got to go to bed. I haven’t watched the second half as of this recording. I’m only the first half in. This is Monday that we’re recording this. And the first half of it really – I mean, everyone needs to watch it. I’m guessing Oprah might – I don’t know because it was on CBS, but I’m wondering if Oprah will release it on her podcast channel as an audio version. I’m like, oh my gosh, sitting through so many commercials. It didn’t surprise me because I think we all knew just through tabloids or in the news that things were not going well for Meghan. I didn’t follow the story very closely. I’m not super into the royals. I wonder people in the UK if they have more of a view about it.
Joy: Yeah. There’s been a lot of social media posts recently after that interview comparing side-by-side the media posts after Kate had a baby or after Kate got married to William and the posts comparing it with Meghan getting married to Harry and how horribly she’s been treated. And you can tell, there’s just no arguing that she was treated very poorly based on what she’s saying. And why would she lie to Oprah? Who’s going to lie to Oprah?
Claire: Who’s going to lie to Oprah?
Joy: You don’t lie to Oprah. Everybody knows what happened to James Frey. You do not lie to Oprah.
Claire: Oh my gosh, I forgot about that.
Joy: You remember that?
Claire: See, that’s what happens. You forgot about those guys that lie to Oprah.
Joy: You forget about those guys.
Claire: You lie to Oprah, you get forgotten.
Joy: It’s kind of like a confessional. You go to hell if you lie to Oprah, and you are banished from the earth.
Claire: You go straight to hell.
Joy: Banished, banished, banished.
Claire: Nothing left.
Joy: Nothing left. You’re ashes in the earth. I have to take a really quick side bar right now. I want to know if anyone out there has watched The Great Race. If you ever watched The Great Race, it’s… I don’t know, I want to say 1960’s maybe, early 70’s, probably 1960’s. I grew up watching it. My brother and I love it. And if anyone out there knows that movie when I just said, “Banished, banished, banished,” I will be so excited. I just need a friend who’s seen that movie. Okay. So I feel like everything that she said is the truth, but I also feel like she’s so guarded. Everything that she was saying, you can tell she was saying very thoughtfully. She was trying not to speak ill of anybody, but she was just speaking about her experience, the facts about her experience. It’s loaded with racism. She talks about how – and if anyone wants to skip ahead 30 seconds or a minute, I’m about to give a minor spoiler. It’s not really a spoiler, but – that when she was about to have their first baby Archie, they were talking about not giving him security. They were like, “We’re not going to give you security.” And she was like, “Well, why?” Because they were not going to be doing… whatever. They didn’t want to give Archie security. Everyone gets security. Because they weren’t going to give him a title. So that started a slew of things. But then she said something along the lines of, and I’m paraphrasing, one or two people, maybe a few people, said to Harry, made a comment about the color of their baby’s skin and that he may come out too dark.
Claire: Because they were worried.
Joy: And you should have seen Oprah’s face when she said that. She was like, “What?” So just if that in an interview, even the first hour – and again I’ve only watched the first half, so that’s what I’m speaking about – just that glimpse of what she’s dealing with in her life, my heart goes out to her and to her mom and to her side of the family for everything that they’ve dealt with. We will never know, that’s not ours to know their own personal life. And even the fact that she has to do this interview and tell people her personal business, it’s kind of like, again, she’s in the spotlight because she married a royal. But I just… ugh, that just I think everyone walked away feeling like, “Yeah, this is what happens. This is what happens to black women.” Someone put a post up about how – I remember saying this too, back when she got married, when they got married. I remember saying, “It was such a beautiful event, I felt the unity. It was so cool to see a black priest. It was so cool to see a black choir.” All of this felt like, oh there’s unity, or there’s a changing of the tides to bring more culture into the royals. That’s very white of me to think that. That was a white thing to think. Someone posted about that too, of how we all kind of thought the fairy tale wedding was very much like, “Oh, look at this bringing color into the royals.” I just thought a lot about that too. I was like, yeah, I totally thought that too, and then all of the crap that she’s been dealing with. So I’m going to watch the second half tonight, and I will report back.
Claire: Please do.
Joy: Go Meghan Markle.
Claire: It always just comes back to Oprah.
Joy: It does, it really does. Is there a greater human?
Claire: I mean, I’m so glad that we haven’t had to endure an Oprah scandal. Can you imagine?
Joy: I’m curious. If we were to be scandalized for something, what would it be?
Claire: Like how everybody came to find that Ellen DeGeneres was terrible to all of her employees.
Joy: So, is that true?
Claire: Right. I don’t know. But that type of a scandal. Like what if we came to find that Oprah hated all of her staff and everybody on her staff felt super toxic.
Joy: Oh my gosh, yeah.
Claire: And that she didn’t smell great. What if we found out that she smelled like patchouli.
Joy: I actually love the smell of patchouli.
Claire: I do too, actually.
Joy: I love it, I really do. That would kind of flip my world upside down where all of the sudden if Oprah had a scandal, I would probably start to think the world was flat. That’s how much of an upset that would be.
Claire: Right. Oh my goodness.
Joy: I’d be like, okay fine, QAnon exists and Trump is great.
Claire: Oh no.
Joy: Please do not take that as a sound bite.
Claire: We’re not going to put that in the transcript.
Joy: Never again, never again. Our transcriber, please take that out.
Claire: You’re hearing this is real time. Edit, edit, edit. Delete, delete, delete. [00:10:50.10]
Joy: Oh my gosh. Can I say one quick thing too? I’ve been really, really thinking more – okay, because I listen to Amy Poehler on – okay, and we have to talk about Moxie. But I listened to Amy Poehler’s interview on Willie Geist. He does this called the Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist. I think he’s NBC, ABC, anyway. He’s a news reporter on one of the major national networks. And he does a weekly podcast with a celebrity. It has to be NBC because he’s in the same building as SNL. So he did this interview with Amy. She talked about Moxie. She talked about how she’s not on social media, and she just made this post of never being on social media, never signing up for Facebook, never being on Instagram. And I was like, “That sounds so nice.” That just sounds so nice to just be gone from the existence of social media. In the same breath, I’m like, I don’t know if I could do it. And that also made me very sad about myself. But there’s something to that where she’s like, “I’ve never once felt like I was missing out. I’ve never felt like I’m getting one good thing from it.”
Claire: I know.
Joy: I’m tossing it around.
Claire: We talk about it all the time.
Joy: I know, we talk about it all the time, but maybe we just all need to –
Claire: Peace out, Instagram.
Joy: Peace out, Instagram. Peace out, Facebook.
Claire: Definitely peace out, Facebook. I mean, we haven’t posted on Facebook as a podcast in months. And I don’t use my personal Facebook for anything. I can’t think of a single thing that I do on Facebook. I really like Instagram.
Joy: I really like Instagram. The only reason I use Facebook is seeing what my family members are up to. That’s it.
Claire: None of my family is on Facebook.
Joy: Like, my cousin and their kids, I like to see. Sometimes my sister-in-law will post pictures of my nieces and nephew, those types of things. But I’m like, I can text them, and they can send me pictures.
Claire: Totally. And then, we got a DM the other day that was like, “Hey, do you guys have any other invites to Clubhouse?” Just FYI guys, Clubhouse never went anywhere.
Joy: It was a bust, don’t do it. I was on it for a week. It was kind of cool to just learn what the new app was, but then I was like, this is not worth my time.
Claire: I don’t have time to consume real-time stuff like that.
Joy: Anything that’s really worth having a conversation, I’m like, put it on the podcast so I can listen to it later.
Claire: That’s the thing.
Joy: I get the thing of live conversations is kind of cool and an audio version.
Claire: I don’t have time for that.
Joy: I just don’t have time for it.
Claire: I just don’t. So if you’re on Clubhouse and you’re enjoying it, loving it, let us know.
Joy: Let us know what you’re listening to, which clubhouse you’re in.
Claire: That’s making it feel worthwhile because every time I got on there, I was like I don’t have time for this.
Joy: Yeah, you’re not missing out.
Claire: No. At least, from us.
Joy: I feel like at this point there’s not many apps that I feel like I’m going to be missing out on. There’s not going to be one great new one.
Claire: I mean, I don’t know. I felt that way about TikTok though when it came out. I was like, “What the hell is TikTok?” and now it’s a huge thing.
Joy: That’s true. Whatever. I’m so old.
Claire: I know. I don’t even have a Twitter. I mean, I have one, but I haven’t tweeted in years.
Joy: Yeah, I’m debating on shutting down our podcast one. I always do that, but then I’m like, “But, what if…”
Claire: I know, but it’s like, but what if what?
Joy: What if what? We open a new account and we just make a new handle.
Claire: I’m pretty sure that at any given time, you can revive your accounts that you’ve, you know. Just sign out of it.
Joy: That’s a good point. I’m still salty about the person who owns @joyandclaire.
Joy: Please, whoever you are, give us that account.
Claire: Give us that account. I’m going to check it right now. Maybe they’ve given it up. [searching on Instagram] Joy and Claire…
Joy: It’s @joyandclaire on Instagram. That’s the reason why we have @joyandclaire_.
Claire: Yeah. They have no followers, and they’re not following anyone, and they only have one post. And so many times, we’ve been like –
Joy: We’ve messaged them, and no one responds. So someone is sitting on it, and they’re not responding. Can you tell if they’ve read the message?
Claire: No, you can’t even tell because it’s been like two years.
Joy: Who are you?
Claire: Who are you?
Joy: Show yourself.
Claire: Nope. Alright, so we wanted to answer a few of the questions that we didn’t get to last week and then also answer some more questions. This past week I went to Durango, as you guys know because our episode from last week we recorded while I was in Durango. And on my drive home, I did a little Instagram Q&A, and I got some good questions that I wanted to talk about.
Joy: I need to do that sometime. I always love when you do that, and I always worry – this is my forever fear that no one is going to show up to the party – I always worry that if I do that, no one’s going to ask me questions.
Claire: Alright guys, you’re hearing it here first. Joy is going to put out a call for questions, and you guys have to ask questions. They always do, even if they’re the same question.
Joy: I know. I always feel like I’m going to be that girl at the party that’s like, “Is anybody home?”
Claire: I’ll ask you questions, Joy.
Joy: Okay, great.
Claire: I’ll text your mom and make sure she asks some questions too.
Joy: Before I forget, did you like Moxy?
Claire: I haven’t seen it yet.
Joy: Oh, you haven’t seen it? Okay, everybody watch Moxie on Netflix. It’s great.
Claire: We’ll talk about it next week. I wanted to watch it. So it took us 2.5 weeks just to watch The Dig because that’s our life.
Joy: Oh wow.
Claire: We started watching it, and that was the night that Miles came downstairs with a mystery rash on his face. So it’s like, of course, the one night that we decide on a movie and actually turn it on, our kid walks downstairs with a rash on his face.
Claire: So then we tried to watch it again the next night and still only got another third of the way through. Yeah, it took forever. I liked it though. Did you watch The Dig?
Joy: I haven’t watched The Dig.
Claire: I liked it.
Joy: Is it slow? I feel like it’s going to be a slow movie.
Claire: Here’s the thing. It’s now slow, but the pacing of it is weird. It’s based on a book.
Claire: But let me tell you what I mean by that.
Joy: Okay, okay.
Claire: It feels like it was originally written to be sort of like a Queen’s Gambit-esque series, that size of a series. And then for whatever reason, halfway through they were like, “Never mind, we finally got Ralph Fiennes to sign on. It has to just be a movie.” Because there’re all of these little tiny subplots that are just mentioned and then gone. You’re like, why even bring that up.
Joy: Oh, yeah.
Claire: There’s one part where there’s some voice over, and you’re like, “Why is there a voice over here? There’s no voice overs in any other part of the movie.” So just parts like that where you’re like, this feels like it was part of a different project and then was consolidated all into a movie weirdly.
Joy: And they were like, “Oh, let’s change the plan.”
Claire: Actually instead of a four-part series with hour-long episodes, it’s just going to be a two-hour long movie. So in that sense, the pacing is weird. But the story is nice. Obviously, it didn’t grab me so much that I couldn’t watch it in three sittings, but I really love Ralph Fiennes so much.
Joy: I do too.
Claire: I’m really coming around to Lily James. Do you know who I’m talking about?
Joy: Yes, I do.
Claire: I didn’t like her that much in Downton Abbey because I was like, why are you even here, you’re so frantic. But I’m getting to like her more. And she’s in so many things right now.
Joy: She’s in so many things.
Claire: Like I feel like whoever her agent is is BFF’s with the Netflix guys. And then I watched the trailer with Brandon for Moxie, to feel it out.
Joy: To get hyped up, yeah.
Claire: And he looked at me like, “You don’t really want to watch that, do you?” And I was like, “Okay fine, I won’t watch it with you.” So yeah, no, we didn’t watch it.
Joy: So if people don’t know, it’s on Netflix. It is a –
Claire: Amy Poehler’s new movie.
Joy: Yeah, it’s directed by Amy Poehler. It’s based on a book.
Claire: It seems like it’s kind of the Mean Girls for Gen Z.
Joy: It is. It’s very much that, and it’s just really well done. And the cast is kind of new actors and actresses, so I feel like they’re – I don’t know, I just feel like they’re fun. I love seeing new people on the screen. Good feel good. I’m really needing a new show. I’ve watched one episode of five shows, and I can’t get into any of them, so I’m starting to rewatch things. So I’m like, oh the new Shrill season is coming up in April. I’m going to rewatch the last season so I know what’s going on. Because you know sometimes we just forget what the last season was about. And Handmaid’s Tale I think is coming out soon again. I don’t know if I can handle watching the last season of that. Last season was rough. They just need to end it.
Claire: That sounds intense.
Joy: They need to end it.
Claire: Just pull the plug.
Joy: Just pull the plug. Just end it all. So sorry, next question that you had from your poll.
Claire: Okay, I wanted to just pivot for a minute and talk about parenting for a few minutes because I get a lot of questions about – obviously I’m a mom and have two kids. I get a lot of questions about a lot of things around parenting and around pregnancy and postpartum because I went through three miscarriages between having Miles and having Evie. And also having Miles I had severe postpartum depression. Which most of you guys know that, but I’m saying that in case you weren’t a Girls Gone WOD listener. If you want to go back and listen. If this is something that you’re going through and want dedicated episodes for those things, first of all I recorded an episode with Noelle Tarr, at this point, probably two years ago. She had really bad postpartum anxiety. So the two of us recorded an episode together that you can literally just Google “Claire Koch Noelle Tarr postpartum” and it will come up. Where we really go into a lot of detail about our experiences with those different issues and what we did to get out of that hole and resources. But more than anything, just our personal experiences because both of us found that hearing other people talk about it made it easier for us to recognize what we were going through. So definitely recommend going back and listening to that episode, and we’ll link to it in the show notes as well. Then we had an episode that came out in August or September of 2018, and it’s called “Pearl Jam and Miscarriages” I want to say.
Joy: Yeah, that was the week I went to see Pearl Jam in concert, yeah, and then you talked about it.
Claire: Right. That’s on our Girls Gone WOD feed, and we’ll link to that episode in the show notes as well. That’s where I go into a lot of detail about the detailed specifics – not the details of having miscarriages, but really what I went through and more specifically the actions that I took coming out of it just to help me feel like I had some control. Not to say by any means that it solved the problem that was causing the miscarriages because we never figured out what was going on. But for me to mentally and emotionally feel like I had some control over it, there were a lot of things that I did, and so I talk a lot about that. All that to say that I get a lot of questions, and I don’t always want to be just talking about it over and over. But I do think that it’s helpful for people to hear. So I got a couple questions last week, and we also got a question that I wanted to go back to in our Q&A that was, “When you become a parent, does your identity just completely change?” I’m paraphrasing the question, but I wanted to start there. I think that honestly the biggest thing for me with becoming a mom the first time with having Miles was that it came with an identity crisis that I really wasn’t ready for. That being said, I say “identity crisis” because it really rocks your priorities and you really can’t know what it’s going to feel like to truly no longer be the most important person in your life. That sounds kind of dramatic, but unless you have kids or are a caretaker for dependents, you can’t really know what it’s like to literally overnight go from you being the main character in your life to someone else being the main character in your life. And that’s really jarring. So that process felt to me like an identity crisis. What have I done? It can feel very suffocating, at least for me it did. But once I was able to process through it – and that took therapy for me. It doesn’t for everybody. But a lot of therapy for me to process through that. It doesn’t feel permanent. So, yes, it was a moment in time where I really felt like, what the heck just happened and what the heck have I done. But now that I have two kids – first of all, if you’re thinking about having a second kid and that process the first time scared the heck out of you, in my experience you only have to go through that once. You don’t go through it again with the second kid because that shift only happens once.
Joy: Yeah, and you’re like, we’re in this so bring them all on.
Claire: You only become a mom for the first time once. Thank God. Just so you know, you don’t have to go through it twice. But the other thing is that it definitely becomes less intense pretty quickly. I was talking to one of my good friends who’s about to have their second kid and I was trying to say that both times that I had kids, the “oh shit” curve was steep but resolved pretty quickly. So I would say that if that’s something that you’re freaked out about, know that that’s a very valid thing to be freaked out about, but also know that you’re not walking around for the rest of your life feeling uncomfortable in your skin. I think when we hear the phrase “identity crisis” or we think about a huge shift in your identity, you really dwell on the discomfort of that first moment. But eventually you really do get used to it. Yeah, of course, every major experience in your life is going to change you in ways that you can’t undo. Parenting is a really unique one of those. But I think about this, and I don’t want to compare getting tattoos with having kids, but people all the time are like, “Tattoos are permanent.” Pretty much anything you do to your body – you make decisions every day that are permanent. Why dwell on these certain ones? I think just putting that into perspective. But then, to go from that question into another question that I got about where I feel like I kind of give the opposite advice, which somebody asked me, “What advice would you give to somebody in their 20’s?” And what I said was, your 20’s is just such a time of transition. Anybody going through a transition, the advice I always give is to just remember that there are very, very few decisions in your life that are truly permanent. Having kids is really the only one I can think of that literally can’t be undone. You can get divorced, you can change cities, you can cut your hair, you can change your body, you can change your name. There are so few things that you can’t undo, and I think that when you are faced with a lot of seemingly very formative decisions all in a row, you can lose track of the fact that at any time in your life you can start over. Yeah, that is not always easy. It’s not always financially whatever. It’s not like you can just flip the switch and start over with no consequences. But that option is available to you. And I think we really forget that, especially in our 20’s and the first phases of any new transition. We feel like the decisions we are about to make are so permanent and so intense and so like, you have to get it right the first time. And that’s really just not the case.
Joy: It’s very much like what we’ve been fed to believe, the narrative of you go to college, you graduate, you get married, you have kids, you get a job, maybe you don’t get a job. All of those things are the narrative of what you’ve been fed success looks like. And I think that’s really – how can that not be anxiety provoking for somebody in their 20’s? I mean, that was anxiety provoking for me, having a hard time not comparing where someone else was in their career journey or some of my peers going on to get their PhD and I didn’t go on to get my PhD. All of those things, I think you start to think this is going to mess up the trajectory of the rest of my life, and that’s just simply not true. It’s just simply not true.
Claire: Right. And to completely, like I was saying, diverge from the advice I give to new moms or if you’re thinking about having kids and around that transition, I think that the thing to say to people in a transitional period is that kind of yellow brick road that you think you’re supposed to follow, no one follows it. Most of us don’t realize that until well into our 30’s and 40’s and all of the sudden it’s like, “Oh my gosh, wait a minute. I didn’t have to make all these permanent decisions in my 20’s? I can reinvent myself as many times as I want? I can try things out without them being my passion? I can dabble? I can try things and decide I don’t like them?” You know. And what’s that concept – what’s it called where – like “sunk costs.” I feel like there’s another way to say that where it’s like, “Well, I’ve already invested so much time and money into this, I can’t give up now.” It’s like, well, if you hate it then give up. Not give up, but if you hate it you’re not giving up. You tried it, you hated it. Don’t keep going just because you’ve already spent time on it. I get it because I’ve been there.
Joy: I mean, that’s kind of like cults again. Circling back to cults. When you’ve been in it so long, you’re like, “Well, surely I’ve put so much time into this.”
Claire: Yeah, not even to go as dramatic as that. It’s just so common.
Joy: I know, but where you’re like, “I can’t change my mind. I put so much time into this.”
Claire: Even when it comes to college majors and stuff. How many people do you know, like Brandon, so many people I know –
Joy: Yes. Or even relationships where you’re just like, I’ve been with this person for 20 years. There’s so much history there, I just can’t imagine starting over. It’s like, no, you’re just changing your mind. Maybe it’s a new beginning. Life is not this linear trajectory. It’s just not. It’s not this you do things and you just keep going until you die. You can change your mind and do whatever the heck you want.
Claire: Right. And I think that in the moment, it’s so hard to see that.
Joy: It’s very hard to see that.
Claire: Maybe it’s easy to tell yourself that, but it’s not going to be easy to tell your mom that or your boss that or your, you know, mentor or your PhD mentor or whatever. So if you need to hear right now that it’s okay to make a different decision –
Joy: Change your mind and pivot.
Claire: And/or if you are facing a decision to be made and are feeling like, “Well, I have to get this right because I’m not going to get another chance,” that’s just not true.
Joy: That’s just not true. You can change your life. You can change careers. You can break up with that person. You can do whatever you want.
Claire: You can change your name and move to France. Maybe not right now.
Joy: We will support you.
Claire: Okay, and then the one other question that I wanted to talk about was back to pregnancy was dealing with pregnancy anxiety after you’ve had a pregnancy loss. Like I was saying, as you guys know, I had three miscarriages between Miles and Evie. After all of them, I had this thought that all I needed to do was have a “successful” pregnancy, and that would just erase. The miscarriages were failures, and I just needed to succeed, and that would erase the failures. That was how I viewed it, and I don’t obviously see miscarriage as a failure anymore. I think that is a horrible way to view it, but that was how I viewed it. Then when I was pregnant with Evie and I got through the first trimester, I expected to have a ton of anxiety in the first trimester and so I kind of just road it out. And then I got through the first trimester and I was still having horrible flashbacks, true PTSD, waking up in the middle of the night, horrible. So I had been seeing a therapist, and the reason I had been seeing this therapist because I don’t want to go through postpartum depression again. Or I don’t believe there’s a lack of something – no lack of preparation or taking the wrong vitamins or not having the right support. Nothing causes postpartum depression, but I wanted to be more prepared for it in the event I was going to have to go through it again. So I was seeing a therapist. During that time, I was finally like, “Listen, this is what’s going on.” She was like, “Okay, you’re describing PTSD.” She happened to be trained in EMDR, and so I ended up doing quite a few EMDR sessions with her, and that really, really helped. But I just wanted to put out there that if you’re going through pregnancy following a pregnancy loss, for many, many people, going through a pregnancy loss is literal trauma. Not everyone experiences it that way, of course. Everybody experiences different things differently in their own bodies, but for so many people it is a truly traumatic experience and you are going to have that with you until you process it in some way. And if it doesn’t come up now, it’s going to come up eventually. It is something that you might benefit from professional help with dealing with. So for me, I did EMDR. When my therapist first was like, “You should try EMDR. I’m trained in EMDR if you want to give it a shot.” It sounded so dramatic to me.
Joy: Yeah, whenever I explain it to patients, I always feel like I’m telling them about witchcraft.
Claire: It sounds so intense.
Joy: I’m always like, “Okay, this is going to sound crazy, but just hear me out.”
Claire: And guys, I don’t love therapy. I don’t love talking about my feelings. As far as I’m concerned, if there’s stuff buried in my subconscious –
Joy: It needs to be there.
Claire: Just stay there.
Joy: Let is just sit.
Claire: Just let it remain undisturbed at the bottom of the pond. So I was kind of skeptical, but my therapist was great. She started it so incrementally that by the time we actually did it, it felt very anticlimactic. We literally would start with five minutes at a time. It was like, “Hey, we’re just going to talk about this one sort of inconsequential topic while doing these EMDR techniques and then we’re going to go back to regular talk therapy for the rest of the session.” For me, that’s the way I really needed to do it. She knew that had we just dove straight in, it would have completely overwhelmed me because I get emotionally overwhelmed very easily and I would have just shut down.
Joy: Sure. EMDR is really intense. I can explain that, what type of therapy it is in a second because people are probably like, what is that.
Claire: Yeah, go ahead.
Joy: In very short, it’s a therapy intervention that was originally used for PTSD and veterans, but now you can use it for any type of trauma. It stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. It uses a bilateral stimulation of your brain using your right-left brain to process trauma. There’s a very strict protocol that you use. You’re not using talk therapy. The therapist is walking you through the protocol, and it works very, very well for trauma. It’s not appropriate for everybody, so I will say if you’re interested in that type of therapy please talk to your therapist or a professional to discuss whether you are appropriate. Someone who’s trained in EMDR can discuss whether or not you are appropriate. Your regular therapist, if they don’t know about EMDR, they’re not going to know whether or not you’re a good candidate. But that’s just something to know that it isn’t something for everyone, but it is very effective for candidates for processing trauma.
Claire: I should also clarify that it we weren’t just like, “Okay, you want to try EMDR now? Okay.” It was very much a specific portion of the therapy session. But it wasn’t like I just walked in one day and did an hour of EMDR cold. That would have probably made things worse for me. So I was grateful to have a therapist that knew that about me.
Joy: Which is great, which is great. And it’s really good to have a therapist who’s trained in EMDR because then they can do sessions that are kind of mixed that way. There’s a lot of sessions – we call it resource development – there’s a lot of sessions before you even start to do what we call the “bilateral stimulation.” And that just means you are stimulating the brain by holding onto these little buzzers or you can do eye movements. You can tap your legs by yourself if you want to. It all has to do with the right-left movement of the brain. Really fascinating. If you’re interested, just Google it. The creator is pretty amazing of what she did to actually develop this type of therapy.
Claire: I use the little –
Joy: The buzzers.
Claire: The little buzzers, and they look like little computer mice kind of.
Joy: Yes. They’re teeny tiny, and they fit in the palm of your hand. We call them buzzers in the therapy world, but they don’t buzz you. We all describe it like they’re little kittens purring in your hands.
Claire: Yeah, they will gently vibrate.
Joy: Very gentle.
Claire: And they hand them to you, and you’re like, “This is it? I just hold these things?”
Claire: You’re like, “I thought there was going to be electrodes on my brain”
Joy: Right, it’s not that complicated. And you can put headphones on. Some people can do both. You can do headphones and the beeping will go in tandem with your buzzers in your hands. You can turn up the frequency. You can make the buzzers buzz heavier or more intense, but they never shock you. When we say buzzers, they’re little kittens purring in your hands.
Claire: It’s like a little massage.
Claire: Anyway. Okay, so that kind of covers the quick few things that I had thought of from our last Instagram Q&A that I wanted to share on the podcast. That brings us to a couple of questions from last week that we didn’t get to. The one I’m sure you guys have all been waiting for is to know what type of cult would Joy join.
Joy: Oh my gosh. You know what, I would probably join – this is not a cult, really. Where did we go when we saw the Burning Man poster? Where were we when we saw Burning Man poster? Remember? Was that with you? I swear that was with you. It was the airport where we flew into Sandy’s, and there was some big poster of Burning Man.
Claire: Oh, yes, no, no, no, it was when we went to Tahoe.
Joy: Oh, that’s right. That’s right.
Claire: Because Reno is where you fly in to go to Burning Man a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joy: So I feel like I would join in some hippy dippy cult – not to say Burning Man’s a cult.
Claire: You would become a Burning Man.
Joy: Okay, that’s true, that’s true.
Claire: Some people take it to the degree that it has some cult characteristics for sure.
Joy: For sure. So I would dip my toe in the Burning Man world, for sure.
Joy: Because you get to wear really cool outfits.
Claire: I know, there’s a lot of glitter involved.
Joy: Wear glitter on your face, and just anything goes. Anything goes.
Claire: Just fur bikinis and glitter eyeliner for days.
Claire: I would like to join a baking cult. I don’t know what that means. I’m open to ideas, if anyone out there would like to set some ground rules and join a commune with me where we bake. Ideally somewhere that I somehow both warm but also mossy.
Joy: Not the baker’s tent because that’s way too hot.
Claire: I romanticize the idea of living in Scotland or Ireland where it’s very – but it’s so cold and rainy and windy.
Joy: No, wind is the worst, yeah.
Claire: Wind is the worst.
Joy: The worst. So Nadiya Bakes is a new Netflix show. Have you watched it yet?
Joy: Okay. Here’s Scott Parrish’s take because Scott watched it with me. He gets very stressed out that she does three recipes in one episode. He’s like, “This is way too fast. How is she moving onto these cupcakes already? What happened to the cake and the pie?” He gets very nervous.
Claire: Has Scott ever had to cook a meal for a family?
Joy: No, but he gets very nervous about how – he wants more information about –
Claire: He wants to linger.
Joy: He wants to linger on the recipe. He wants to see more details. It goes very, very fast. I think it’s great because I think she’s the cutest. So that’s another Netflix show.
Claire: The whole thing is that she’s like… no, I’m thinking of Time to Eat where she’s like, here’s how you have to actually put – I have seen Nadiya Bakes, but Nadiya’s Time to Eat – I mean, I get it though. I love her. She’s so cute. She has the best eyebrow makeup.
Joy: She really does. She’s just great. I love her. And I love how she feeds the crew at the end of every episode. It’s so cute.
Claire: I mean, she’s so cute. Did you ever listen to the Home Cooking episode with her on it?
Joy: No. No, no, no, no.
Claire: You should. That’s the only podcast I ever listened to. She was on it, and she was so cute. And it’s so cute because they all bond over having Indian parents who don’t think anything they do is good enough.
Joy: So cute.
Claire: It’s so funny.
Joy: Oh my gosh, that’s adorable. By the way, speaking of shows, you watched Barb and Star, right?
Claire: Yeah, it was so weird. Did you watch it?
Joy: I haven’t watched it yet because now I’m scared because you’re like it’s the weirdest thing.
Claire: It’s the weirdest thing. But okay, here’s why it was weird. I think it I –
Joy: This is the new Kristen Wiig movie.
Claire: So it’s Kristen Wiig and the same cowriter she had with Bridesmaids. So I was like, high expectations.
Claire: And if you watch the trailer, it just looks very sort like, oh two midwestern middle-aged best friends go on vacation. Hilarity ensures.
Claire: However, what it doesn’t say in the trailer –
Claire: Yeah, I mean, spoiler, but you’re going to want this spoiler.
Joy: You’re going to want this.
Claire: It’s like airplane style humor.
Joy: Oh my gosh, yes.
Claire: Almost Mike Myers style humor where you’re like, this is so weird. Or like Mel Gipson –
Joy: Top Secret.
Claire: Or like… not Star Wars, but the Star Wars spoof that they did. What was it called? Come on.
Joy: Oh, Space Balls.
Claire: Space Balls, gah, it was right there. I was like, “Space Wars? No, what is it?” Space Wars is a different movie. Space Balls. It’s like that type of humor where you’re like, am I laughing?
Joy: But you weren’t expecting it. You were like, I wish I knew.
Claire: I had no idea.
Claire: So had I gone into it knowing that it was going to be really bizarre and just weird humor. Like at one point, there’s a blue crab that’s voiced by Morgan Freeman. Gosh, what’s her name?
Joy: A blue crab?
Claire: Yeah. There’s so many cameos, like Kristen’s sitting on the beach and she’s like, “Blue crab, what should I do?” And he’s like, “Well, let me tell you” and goes on and on about life.
Joy: Didn’t she fall down a waterfall? You said something about, anyway…
Claire: Yeah, she falls into the ocean and – oh gosh, I can’t remember anybody’s name right now.
Joy: She turns into something.
Claire: A famous country star who has a cameo as a mermaid and saves them from drowning. And at one point, they have an ecstasy trip. Kristen Wiig also plays this villain who the whole premise of the movie is that she hates this town in Florida and she wants to release these killer mosquitos.
Joy: Oh my gosh, what? That’s not at all what I would have –
Claire: Not at all. None, zero.
Joy: Killer mosquitos?
Claire: So it’s so weird, and you don’t have any idea going into it that it’s going to be weird. You just think it’s going to be this quirky comedy.
Joy: Bridesmaids. You’re like Bridesmaids middle-aged.
Claire: Right. Had I been ready for this super weird comedy, I think I would have liked it. But because I didn’t know that’s what it was going to be, the whole time I was just like, “What’s going on?”
Joy: What’s going on, yeah. Okay, you heard it here first. You’ve been warned. You’ve been warned.
Claire: Yeah, get high before you watch Barb and Star.
Joy: Yeah, seriously.
Claire: I did get high before I watched it, and it still made no sense, to be clear. And actually, that made it worse because I was looking at Brandon like, “Are you seeing this?” Or, “Is that Morgan Freeman?”
Joy: [laughing] Things you say when you’re stoned watching a regular movie, except it wasn’t.
Claire: Except it wasn’t a regular movie, and I didn’t know.
Joy: That is so freaking funny.
Claire: Not recommend. Alright guys, do we want to do a few more questions?
Joy: Yeah, I have a good one. “When will you have Jessie Gubbins on?”
Claire: Oh my gosh. Hi, Jessie.
Joy: Jessie, please come on our show. Let’s just talk. Let’s just talk about life in Dubai. Every time I watch your stories – those of you who aren’t familiar with Jess, she’s our CrossFit friend from the first days of the podcast. She came to Colorado the first year we were doing the podcast, and we met her in real life at a bar. She’s just the best. She posts these amazing photos of her dog every day and the amazing meals she makes. She often posts her workouts with the most precise details. She’s very organized and organizes her –
Claire: She has color-coded rainbow kettlebells.
Joy: Yes, color-coded rainbow kettlebells.
Claire: Her shoes always match her outfit.
Joy: Yeah, so everything she does, I’m always like, you are the grounding that I needed in the pandemic. Every time she posts, I’m like, “You are my grounding person.” And then I love seeing the weather every day because it’s so hot in Dubai all the time. So just follow her. Her Instagram is @jessgubb. She’s the best.
Claire: She’s so cute.
Joy: So Jessie, please come on our show. Let’s just talk.
Claire: Except that if she’s in Dubai, that’s like 11 hours ahead of us. It’s the hardest thing to schedule.
Joy: I know, it’s so hard.
Claire: Remember when we talked to the Dubai fitness challenge guy? And it was like 4 in the morning at his house.
Claire: And he was such a good sport about it.
Joy: So good.
Claire: One rumor that I want to squash right off the bat is somebody said something about if we are taking distance from Juli Bauer.
Claire: No, we’re not taking distance from Juli.
Joy: Somebody asked that?
Claire: “Have you chosen to take some distance from Paleo OMG?” No.
Claire: We love Juli.
Joy: We love Juli. We don’t see anybody because it’s a pandemic,
Claire: Right, we’ve been in a pandemic.
Joy: We don’t see anybody.
Claire: We’re just hanging out, not talking to – haven’t really been chatting with her lately, but love her. Alright, let’s do a few quick random ones and then we will wrap it up. “What is your favorite time of day?”
Joy: Morning. I love mornings.
Joy: I love the mornings. I am up and at ’em and starting the day. I’m one of those annoying people, but I love, love the mornings. Love them so much.
Claire: If you guys could see my face right now. I’m shaking my head in disgust. I want to have a six habits of highly effective non-morning people.
Claire: Every freaking LinkedIn headline I see is like how all these CEO’s spend their mornings. I want to wake up at 8. I mean, I don’t get to because I have small kids, but that would be my dream.
Joy: Not everyone who’s successful has to wake up early. I think that’s silly.
Claire: My dream sleep schedule would be to go to bed between 12 and 1 and wake up between 7:30 and 8:30. I would love that. Me and Jess Keys, we’re just going to chill at midnight together. Hi, Jess. Okay, “Any makeup or skincare products that you’ve been loving lately?”
Joy: Okay, so I am still a fan of the New Wash, you guys. This the Hairstory product that I tried a few months ago. I was turned onto it by my naturopath. I went to my hairdresser, and I got my haircut maybe a month ago or so. I got my hair done, and I told her – because here’s the thing. With Graves’ Disease, my hair was getting kind of thin, so I was getting really worried about it, so I started using New Wash. If you go to hairstory.com – this is not an ad, I just really, really like the product. It’s a little pricey, but you don’t use any shampoo or conditioner. You just use this product on your hair, and you can kind of go through the week without having to wash your hair. Anyway, just read about it. If it fits for you, great. I have no investment in it. But I asked my hairdresser because last time I saw her – so, this was maybe two, three months after I saw here when I was first diagnosed with Graves’ Disease and I was not doing well. And the last time, she was like, “Hey, your hair feels so soft. What are you using?” I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I’m using Hairstory.” She’s like, “Oh, I love that product.” So I got the stamp of approval from her, and she’s been doing my hair for years and I really, really value her opinion. And so when she gave me the stamp of approval, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I love Hairstory.” She was like, “It’s a great product. We would sell it in the salon, but they don’t have a great whole sale model.” But she’s like, “Yeah, I love it. I think it’s a great product.” So, Hairstory. And then the other products that I’ve been loving is Dazzle Dry, you guys. It’s a little pricey – again, these are a little more pricey products. But Dazzle Dry, I watched Fed and Fit Cassy use this for years and years, and she always raved about it.
Claire: She’s the cutest. Why is Cassy the cutest?
Joy: Cutest human. She’s up there with Oprah for me. She’s just the cutest person.
Claire: Oh my gosh, someone please tag her in this episode and tell her that Joy thinks she’s like Oprah.
Joy: She’s just the cutest, like most –
Claire: I know, she’s so cute.
Joy: The most genuine human.
Claire: She is.
Joy: She’s a genuine human. I don’t think there’s a bad bone in her body.
Claire: I remember talking to Julie about her once, and she was like, “The thing about Cassy is that she’s actually even better in person.”
Joy: I can believe that. She’s even better in person, yeah, just love her. Anyway, I saw Dazzle Dry through Cassy years ago. And then I was in quarantine, I just really, I miss trying new products. So one day I ordered it, and I love it. It’s a nail polish that stays on for a really long time. You do have to follow the directions for it to stay on as long as they say it stays on. It’s this female-owned business in Arizona. I’m all about the Arizona people, so I ordered it and I’ve been doing my nails with Dazzle Dry. Those are my two favorite products right now. Try them out.
Claire: Alright, I don’t have any new products, and I don’t use any products. Brandon’s sister was getting Curology, that face stuff, and she left it here like a year ago. So I finally opened it, which you know the expiration date only takes effect after you open it. Right?
Joy: Yes, right.
Claire: That’s what I tell myself.
Joy: Once the lid is off.
Claire: Right. Hence the icon. And I’ve been using it. It’s fine. It’s supposed to be formulated for you, but I just used the face wash and moisturizer. It’s fine. It’s a face wash and moisturizer, I don’t know.
Joy: Have you ever had your world rocked by a face wash or moisturizer? I have not.
Claire: I loved – obsessed with – the FATCO oil cleanser. Do you remember when I found that and I was like, “Why didn’t anyone tell me about oil cleanser?” Why don’t I just buy more of that? I don’t know. It’s so dry here, but I simultaneously hate the feeling of moisturizer. I hate it. I just have this sensory thing.
Joy: I can’t deal with oils either, like putting oils on my face. I want something soapy and sudsy.
Claire: So you put the oil cleanser on, but then you do wipe it off. So you don’t just let it sit there forever.
Joy: Well, I know, but I think any oily products, I don’t know why that weirds me out. I need a soapy product.
Claire: I really liked it. Yeah, I need to go back to it. And then when I got my hair cut whenever it was, my stylist always influences me to buy the really expensive shampoos. So I’m using this – what’s the spray I told you about?
Joy: Oh my gosh… Paul – no, not Paul Mitchell. Kevin Murphy?
Claire: Kevin Murphy. Thank you for knowing that. I have this really expensive Kevin Murphy salon shampoo and conditioner right now. It’s fine. It smells very nice, but I’m not going to buy it again when I’m done with it.
Joy: Yeah. I also kind of cycle through dry shampoos every once in a while.
Claire: I love still the Kristin Ess dry shampoo.
Joy: Yeah, Kristin Ess dry shampoo. Right now, I’m using a Garnier dry shampoo because the Streicher Sisters had it on their Instagram, and they influenced me. What is the product you said you can put in your hair after you work out? It’s a specific workout to… workout to life? Workout back to work? Is that a Kevin Murphy?
Claire: It wasn’t specifically for working out. It’s just that that’s how I use it.
Joy: Oh. I was getting all excited.
Claire: It’s the R+Co –
Joy: Oh, it’s the R+Co, okay.
Claire: It’s the R+Co hair shoot spray.
Joy: Hair shoot spray, okay.
Claire: You know when you’re sweaty, you don’t necessarily want to put dry shampoo on because then it just turns into paste in your hair – gross. So this is a volumizing spray. A texturizing, volumizing spray. It kind of gives your hair lift so it doesn’t just look like you have greasy hair plastered to your head. But it’s not a dry shampoo, so it doesn’t turn into a paste.
Joy: Okay, great.
Claire: You heard it here first.
Joy: Heard it here first.
Claire: My only tip. That’s my only beauty tip.
Joy: You’re just going to give us the same product for the next five years.
Claire: Yeah, that’s kind of how I roll. I just find one thing that I like, and I’m like, “Oh, but have you guys tried the Ned Hemp Chapstick yet? Because it’s still my favorite Chapstick.”
Joy: Oh my gosh. Alright, what else? Are we done? Are we done yet?
Claire: So ceremonial… ceremonious? That’s it. That was our last question. So you can find us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can find us on the internet. We are at joyandclaire.com.
Joy: Not for long. Just kidding. We’re going to go off social media. [laughing]
Claire: You can always find us at joyandclaire.com.
Claire: If you want to find us on Facebook for some reason, even though we haven’t posted on Facebook in 100 years, you can find us at This is Joy and Claire.
Joy: Maybe I’ll refresh it and put something up.
Claire: No, we won’t. Just email us. At the end of the day, guys, just email us. email@example.com. Subscribe, like our podcast, leave a review.
Joy: Leave a review, let us know.
Claire: Tell a friend about us.
Joy: Please spread the word. We’re still doing it.
Claire: Spread the word. We’re still here. Every week. And we’re loving it. We hope you’re still loving it. Just enjoy it. The CrossFit Open starts this week.
Claire: Remember when that used to be our major focus of our lives?
Joy: Yes. Speaking of, if you want to support one of our favorite sponsors Double Under Wonder, you can order a jump rope through them and use the discount code JOY.
Claire: They’re so cute. They’re custom, it’s so cute.
Joy: And I love the business.
Claire: So if you’re doing the CrossFit Open, good luck. You can reminisce with us about when that used to be our whole life.
Joy: Yeah. And please tag us in your workout so we can vicariously live through you because I won’t be doing anything like that this year.
Claire: I will be forced to do them – I mean, not forced. I’ll end up doing them because the gym I go to is doing it, and they do this big intramural open, which is super fun and I appreciate that they do that. And also, I did not sign up.
Joy: You didn’t succumb to the guy being like, “Claire, sign up for the open.”
Claire: Conner, I’m not going to sign up. But now I’m feeling FOMO.
Joy: Conner, stop. She’s not going to do it.
Claire: Cut it out Conner. But now I’m feeling FOMO because all their posts and emails are like, “Alright, intramural.” I’m like, “Dang it.”
Joy: That’s how they get you. The FOMO is real.
Claire: The FOMO is real. But speaking of FOMO, do you remember in 2016 when after Miles was born, that was the first year that they did those open announcements where they had a regular person also doing them. And do you remember the very first workout, it was lunges and Bob Harper judged it?
Claire: And I signed up at the end of that workout because I was like, if that girl can do it –
Joy: I can do it, yeah.
Claire: We redid that workout last week, and my bottom is still sore.
Joy: Oh my gosh. Those lunges. I remember that one. That was so tough.
Claire: So bad. So bad.
Joy: I do kind of miss the announcement excitement, I’ve got to say.
Claire: I do too. It’s still going to happen. They’re doing live announcements again, and I hope – I don’t think we follow Dave Castro on Instagram anymore, but we might need to follow him just the next – and the Open this year is only three weeks long.
Joy: Oh, really? I think we stopped following. I think I made a comment that made him mad, and so I’m sure we’re on their crap list, but whatever.
Claire: Oh, whatever. Okay, for example, he already posted it. 21.1 It’s like a wolf carcass head.
Joy: Okay, he’s at his shenanigans.
Claire: It’s a partially decomposed wolf skull is what that looks like.
Claire: So I appreciate that deeply. Thank you for giving the instant gratification that I needed of your cryptic Open clues. Alright guys, we’ll talk to you guys next week.
Joy: Have a good day.
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