What on earth is a pain terrarium? You’ll have to listen to find out. We get personal with the therapy hat and also discuss the Crossfit Games FOMO. Finally, what happened with Joe and the recent dog attack? There is lots to catch up on, don’t miss this episode!
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This is Joy & Claire Episode 138: Uncorking the Pain Terrarium
Episode Date: August 4, 2022
Transcription Completed: October 30, 2022
Audio Length: 58:53 minutes
Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.
Claire: And this is Claire.
Claire: Happy Thursday.
Joy: Happy Thursday forever and ever. You know, would we ever switch the days? Probably not. That would just be too much change.
Claire: Of all the things we want to change up, we cannot mess with the schedule.
Joy: People do not like when we change the songs.
Claire: I think about our schedule all the time. I always think back to what we say every time, which is that if you told us we would find time for this every week for nine years, we never would have started.
Joy: Oh, heck no.
Claire: I compare this to the other habits in my life that I’m trying to create. I’m like, how do we always make this work every single week? It just happens.
Joy: It’s in the DNA.
Claire: Yeah, you’ve just got to set aside an hour every single week.
Joy: I think about the Gretchen Rubin Four Tendencies.
Joy: How a lot of it also is for other people that are kind of counting on us. And then every once in a while, I’ll be like, “Is anyone out there?” And then we’ll get a great email and be like, yes, there are still people out there.
Claire: Wait, which tendency do you have?
Joy: I believe that I am part… four tendencies… let me look it up.
Claire: Okay, there’s the upholder, the obliger, the rebel, and the questioner.
Joy: I think I came out with the upholder and the obliger.
Joy: I have a crossover between the two. I’m really big on outer expectations. Like if somebody is counting on me, I’ll be like, “Yes, I will do that.” And then I also have a big piece of inner expectations. However, I’ll talk myself out of it. I’ll easily be like, “I don’t want to do that” if I have some type of goal.
Joy: Like recently I had to take this exam – so if you’re in any type of field where you have to do continuing education credits or get a license in the state of wherever you’re practicing in. Because now I work for a telehealth company, it really is beneficial to get licensed in multiple states so you can see more people. So recently they were like, “We have a need in Utah. Would you like to get licensed in Utah?” I’m like, sure. These days, it’s very easy to get cross-licensed. Meaning, there’s this great platform website called Medallion that does a lot of the heavy lifting for you. It’s awesome. I was like, sure, let’s try Utah. They were like, “You need to have this extra exam,” which is basically the same exam I took 20 years ago. It’s a narrative version. So it’s more like you read case studies and reply or you respond to these case studies and talk through what you would do. So I studied for this exam. I was like, I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I want to meet this goal. I stopped studying for a while because I’m so exhausted. If you’ve taken these standardized tests before, you understand how much of a pain they are. It’s more about how to outsmart the test than it is knowing the content. And it’s also very weird to take a test about content you’ve done for 20 years because you have to go back to the book. You can’t do something out of clinical practice. You have to do something by the book. Which is two totally different ways of practicing. So I get it. And I was kind of getting into that framework again of the by the book stuff. Went to take the test. And I was actually really enjoying the test. I think I was more fearful of, “Will I be able to take this test?” I have not done a standardized test in so long. And I missed it by three points. Like so close. So close. That lit a fire in me where I was like, oh my gosh, I’m so mad. I didn’t meet that expectation for myself, and then I also didn’t meet it for my work. Which it matters, but they’re not going to fire me for it.
Claire: It just would have been nice to have.
Joy: It’s a nice to have, not a must have. And so that’s not the issue. It was more of, I was so close, and the inner expectation was pretty fiery. And also, I didn’t realize how fiery it was until I failed.
Claire: So on the day that Joy took the test, she was texting me. She was like, “I have this test. I’m probably going to fail. I don’t even care. I’m just taking it to see how it goes.”
Joy: I was trying to be super cas. Not be nervous. Total chill girl.
Claire: And then she texted me and was like, “I missed it by three points!” I was like, it almost would have been better if you had bombed it. Because then you would have known, aw man, not for me, not happening. To miss it by only three points is I think a worst-case scenario.
Joy: I agree. It was pretty painful. I can’t decide if I’m happy that I was so close because I’ve still got it in a way. But it also really hurt that I was so freaking – and I knew the last question. It was the last question. It was so frustrating because I knew exactly the question that screwed me. And this test is written to where it will give you feedback based on your answers of when you go on to the next question of how you are doing. It’s hard to explain. But basically –
Claire: It’s a dynamic test.
Joy: Yeah. So I was responding, and it would be like, “Pick another answer.” Basically, you got it wrong. So if you pick an answer and it says, “Pick another answer,” it means you got it wrong and they start deducting points. But the case study was so – I mean, I ran it by almost every therapist I know. And they are like, “I cannot believe that was the answer that they picked.” I almost wanted to dispute it. I even told my boss. She was like, “I would write and dispute it.” I get it. You could argue that this question was very much giving a stigma to a person who was pregnant. Like a diagnosis to someone who was pregnant. The question was alluding to someone who was pregnant. And I would never diagnose this person with bipolar – which is what they wanted you to answer. Anyway. Not worth going into. But I was running it by all my friends. They’re like, “That’s sexist. That’s totally discriminatory.” Basically I would never diagnose someone with bipolar because they accidentally got pregnant. Bipolar can come along with risky behaviors and unprotected sex. But then I’m also like, but that’s judgmental. I wasn’t thinking that way. So this question was just like, deducting, deducting points, deducting points. The last answer I picked was “bipolar,” and I was like, oh shit, I just lost so many points. It tricked me. And the fact that it was the last question made me so mad because I was feeling so confident, and then the last question just screwed me. So clearly because I just spent the last five minutes talking about a stupid test, the upholder is that inner expectation where I got so mad that I didn’t pass it. I want to go back. Get me back in right now. I want to pass it right now. Even though I don’t need it. I don’t need it. Back to our original point of would we have those outer-inner expectations going into this podcast? Probably not. Do you still have a good handle on what you do? Has it changed at all?
Claire: I never have read the whole book, but I remember taking the quiz the last time this came up. I was in between an upholder and a questioner. I’m more likely to resist outer expectations. Inner and outer expectations are important to me, but if I have to choose, I am more likely to follow my inner expectations than outer expectations. I also think it’s interesting for you that rebel doesn’t come up. It feels like you also have this streak in you that won’t do something if you think that someone else expects you to do it.
Joy: I wouldn’t say expectation. I would say –
Claire: Sorry. Not expects. But if someone expects, but not in a – like you don’t want to do something if it’s predictable.
Joy: That is correct. I think expectations are different. If it’s like I’m relying on you, it’s very likely that I’ll stick to that because that’s important to me. But if someone is like, this is the newest trend. I’m like, no it’s not. That’s where I get rebellious. The newest reel trend, or the newest Instagram trend, or the newest social media trend. I’ll be like, no, I don’t want to do that. Because that sameness freaks me out. It’s always been that way. I’ve been that way as long as I can remember. If the group was doing one thing, I did the complete opposite. So it’s different from, “Joy, I’m expecting you to meet this goal.” And I’m like, “I’m on it. I got it.”
Claire: Right. It’s more like a societal expectation.
Joy: A societal expectation, exactly.
Claire: Maybe that’s another category. Or maybe the book goes into this, or maybe her podcast goes into this. I’ve not really consumed that much content around this topic, but maybe there’s another distinction between personal expectations that you feel that an individual has for you, that you may have a personal relationship versus society’s expectations that you don’t feel connected to in the same way. I don’t know. I feel like of all the different personality types – Myers-Briggs, Enneagram, all that that we occasionally reference – that particular grouping, the four types is the one that I resonate with the least. I don’t really think about my life in terms of expectations being met or being questioned.
Joy: But you’re pretty good about just independently thinking, not being too much – you’re definitely not this rebel of, “No, I’m not going to do that.” It’s like a healthy questioning.
Claire: I think that I just have a very logical approach – logical in the real sense of the word in that I take things very subjectively. I look at things very subjectively. Expectations tend to not really come into it. It’s just like, hey, fi this then that, if that then this. If I can’t do that, then this will happen. If I do do it, then that will happen. Let me choose which outcome that I want. And you know, it’s more complicated than that.
Joy: Isn’t it interesting if you think about how this really isn’t something that is biological, I don’t think. Because I don’t think that this was passed down, the expectation piece. This wasn’t passed down from my family dynamics.
Joy: My mom is a complete upholder. She might be a little bit of an obliger. Actually, that’s exactly the same as mine.
Claire: Wait a minute. The call is coming from inside the house.
Joy: That’s so funny.
Claire: I mean, genetic maybe not, but I definitely think that it has to do with how you were raised. I think most of those tendencies probably come from the way that you were raised as a child to meet others’ expectations and how other people’s expectations were communicated to you, and the importance that other people’s expectations were put on you as a child and an adolescent.
Claire: I think about a lot of people who so many of their goals and achievements as children and teenagers and young adults even are just directly related to something that their parents wanted them to do. Or their teachers, whatever.
Joy: That’s fair. Have I talked about my little theory about templates? Of how you’re raised?
Claire: No, go on.
Joy: I repeat this so much in therapy that I forget where I’m saying this. I always say that it feels like you’re raised and you have a template. This is the vision and the lens that you have from the world from how you were brought up. And so many people have this struggle because they’re trying to fit their more mature, grown-up, adult life from an old template. I’m like, “It’s like an iPhone update. You just need to update your template.” And you need to get rid of the old way of thinking. Sure, it had benefits. And sure, it taught you a lot of great things. But there’s so much from that lens that you look at life with that’s really dysfunctional now, that’s not serving you anymore. But it’s so hard to change. It’s not just like an overnight thing. Anyway, I find that really interesting. I think of my dad. I think he’d be more rebel. He is straight up rebel. If he had it his way, I think he would just build airplanes in a garage his whole life and not work for “the man,” but he had to provide for a family. And now he gets to do that in his retired life.
Claire: I think about this a lot when I’m doing therapy. Again, Joy is a therapist. I am a receiver of the therapy.
Joy: Hey look, we’re all receivers of the therapy in life.
Claire: It’s so true.
Joy: It just so happens that I’m –
Claire: Not from Joy. Joy is not my therapist. That would be wild. That would be a fun podcast though.
Joy: That would be unethical and a dual relationship.
Joy: However, I would be reported to the board immediately and lose my license.
Claire: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joy: It’s okay. Let’s just do it on a podcast.
Claire: What I’m trying to say is in my own therapy, I think I’ll always resist digging too much into, “Where did this come from? What are your childhood patterns that are showing up here?” I’m just like, “Listen” – like, have you seen that tweet that’s going around that’s like, “Therapist: Can we unpack that together? Me: Um, no. I spent years packing it nicely away.” That’s pretty much how I feel. Excuse me, if things are in my subconscious, they’re doing fine there. I don’t need to take them out. They’re there for a reason. Let’s just let sleeping dogs lie. Maybe that’s why therapy is so hard for me because therapy is to uncover things from my past. I mean, “hard time” is not the right way to say it. I sort of resist thinking too much about, oh, this pattern comes from X, Y, Z. Like communication style in my childhood or the types of expectations my parents had for me, this dynamic with my siblings. I don’t know. For me, I think if I look back and I can say, “Oh yeah, I’m sure this probably came from” – whatever. But I also feel like sometimes that feels distracting. I’m like, yeah, yeah, fine, I don’t need to know what this has to do with, whatever my childhood issues. What do I do with it now?
Joy: What do I do about it now? I mean, everybody is different in therapy, and I definitely don’t subscribe to we all have to unpack the childhood stuff. However, we would be doing a disservice if we didn’t look at how we are doing now as a direct result of how we were and how we were raised. It’s more about I don’t think we have to pick apart every single thing, but it’s more of drawing the correlation of there’s parts of us that just weren’t healed as a kid that we carry through with us now. That these patterns just no longer service. It’s that template thing. I’m operating from this because it’s automatic. It’s a default setting. To update this default setting, it takes a lot of work, it takes a lot of awareness. And sometimes that awareness comes from a lot of pain, and we don’t like to deal with pain. So it turns into, let’s just put that back.
Claire: Yeah, but is there something wrong with that? Can I just be like, “Hey, that looks painful. I’m just going to keep it behind the glass.”
Joy: But why would you want to look at it? Why not just explore it just to see what comes up? Why not?
Claire: What you just said. It’s painful, and you don’t want to deal with pain. So can’t you just look at it like in a tank, and it can be a terrarium of your childhood pain.
Joy: You sure can, but it’s not going to benefit you in the way that it could. No one is forcing you to take out the stuff and look at it.
Claire: To uncork my pain terrarium.
Joy: There’s really no way around it. The only way out is through.
Claire: This is going to come up in therapy this week.
Joy: It really does suck.
Claire: I’m going to use the phrase “uncork my pain terrarium,” and my therapist is going to be like, “I’m sorry, what?”
Joy: Uncork my pain terrarium. Is that what you called it? That’s the name of this episode. [laughing]
Claire: Uncorking the pain terrarium.
Joy: It’s going to be the weirdest title. No one will ever listen to this podcast. “I just don’t know where these girls are going.” But I think about when we had Zac Anderson on the show.
Claire: Man, two weeks in a row talking about that.
Joy: Which he put a reel together of when we were like, “I’m talking to you Zac Anderson.” When he said there’s so much that you can put on the shelf before the shelf breaks. It’s very true. But here’s the thing that people are very afraid of in therapy. Once I uncork that pain terrarium – which I really wish that I could use in therapy – I’ll never be able to recover from that. That’s the biggest fear. That’s when I talk about increasing your tolerance to uncomfortable feelings, that’s what I’m talking about. You just kind of got to dig in a little bit. It’s not going to come crashing down. You’re a strong person. You can tolerate it. You can handle it. It’s just that looking at it is like, “I just don’t want to.” So you can start to look at it and just consider it and then be like, “It’s uncomfortable, but I can deal with that level of uncomfort.” No one is asking you to dive in and go into the deep end with weights on you and try to swim. You know?
Claire: Okay. Just to play devil’s advocate here –
Claire: This is like a meta therapy session. You’re not giving me therapy. We’re just –
Claire: But in my experience, there is no middle ground. It’s terrarium of pain stays corked, or you are in the deep end with concrete shoes on. There is no experience in the pain terrarium that does not feel like being in the deep end with concrete shoes on.
Joy: To you?
Claire: It feels very all or nothing.
Joy: It feels very all or nothing. So if you were to open that, you would be like, “It’s too much. I’m shutting down.”
Claire: It would be like when the Ghost Busters tank of containment got shut down and all the ghosts were released back into the city immediately. That’s probably a better analogy.
Joy: That’s a great analogy. That’s a great analogy.
Claire: The containment field does not need to be breached. It’s all or nothing. Once the containment field is shut down by the EPA guy with the bad hair, all of the ghosts are going to be released into the city –
Joy: “Shut this down. Shut this all down. Everybody, shut this down.”
Claire: I’m going to have to go through an enormous Michelin Man moment and have to cross the strings to get them back in.
Claire: And that just feels like a lot of work.
Joy: I hear you. I hear you. And I think that so much of it really is in our mind of how painful it’s going to be. I think if you were to decide to go there and talk about some of those things, that’s what a therapist is for, to walk you through it. To be like, “You’re okay. You’re sitting here. You’re fine. There’s nothing scary. What’s the worst thing that could happen.” What’s the worst thing that could happen if you open the Ghost Busters gate?
Claire: I don’t know, I feel like a lot of bad things could happen.
Joy: What’s going to happen? What is the worst thing that’s going to happen if the Ghost Busters gate opens?
Claire: I don’t know. It feels like a mental health spiral would be a pretty bad thing to go through.
Joy: Have you ever gone through a major mental health spiral?
Claire: Well yeah, when I had postpartum depression, I did.
Joy: That was definitely related to a significant event.
Claire: A significant event.
Joy: Every significant.
Claire: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I think that there is – again, I think looking at patterns and saying, “Oh, this pattern exists” is one thing. Versus being like, “This comes from this moment or this thing in my childhood.” I am more curious about – I have this problem now. What do I do with it? So do you feel like there’s no way to get to that point of “Okay, I have this problem, what do I do with it?” Without being like, okay, really, let’s dig this problem up. What does it really look like?
Joy: It depends. It totally depends. And that again is what a therapist would tell you. I definitely have some people who are like, “This is what’s going on with me.” I’ll be like, alright, let’s talk about why you interact this way with this type of person or this partner, whatever. I’m just throwing out very vague examples. But it inevitably ends up with, how did you get to this pattern of behavior? Or it’s always about a belief system about yourself. Belief systems are huge. Your template. What do you think about yourself? How do you navigate throughout the world and what your inner talk is and what your inner confidence level is. I’m always asking people, where do you get your confidence? So I feel like, to answer your question without all the information – because of course I would never have that – just knowing you as a friend, I could objectively be like, I don’t see you as someone who – first of all, you survived a very difficult and tumultuous, I don’t want to say “childhood” per se, but situations were not great all the time with your stepparents. With the stepmothers in your life. But you found ways to survive that by overachieving. That was a survival technique because you were like, “Get me out of here. Bye.” So you have survival mode in you. There is nothing you could talk about your past, in my opinion. And I don’t know what’s in there. I don’t know what’s in the Ghost Busters box, the terrarium. But it would shock me if that took you down now.
Claire: Okay. Okay.
Joy: It would surprise me if all of the sudden I never hear from Claire again because she had a complete mental breakdown and shut off her phone and we never heard from her again. That to me is very unlikely. I think that’s probably how it feels. Remember when I talked about the more you put it in the closet, you think it’s the scariest monster, but it’s just the cute Monsters, Inc. cuddly bear?
Joy: Not always cuddly. But it’s not always as bad as it seems. That’s what I’m saying. I’m not discounting people’s pain. But I’m just saying, most of the time, the thought around it –
Claire: You built it up in your head –
Joy: Built it up in your head.
Claire: About like, “This is going to be horrible.” And then you actually do it and you’re like, “Oh, that wasn’t so bad.”
Claire: Yeah, fair enough.
Joy: But it’s also not to say that – acknowledging it can be painful, sure. Releasing that, it would be interesting/possibly healing to see what’s on the other side of that. If I finally was just like, “Let’s clear the cobwebs,” so to speak.
Claire: Turn the light on in the scary closet.
Claire: A lot of analogies here.
Joy: Terrarium is my favorite one though. And the Ghost Busters one.
Claire: That one feels more.
Joy: It really does.
Claire: The containment field. Well, all that to say.
Joy: All that to say. I mean, really, initially I opened this discussion with Claire when she signed on talking about how I’m turning 45 soon and my doctor says when you turn 45, you have to start getting colonoscopies. So just so you know, that’s what we were planning to open with.
Claire: And somehow we got into Claire’s past trauma. Yes. But we were planning on talking about getting older, getting colonoscopies.
Joy: Which is not as fun as going into the cave of wisdom.
Claire: Pain terrarium.
Joy: You remember the pain of wisdom.
Claire: How could I not.
Joy: Why did you just gloss over that?
Claire: If you guys are not familiar with the cave of wisdom, probably this was back in 2014 probably.
Claire: I went to Madison – which we’re going to talk about Madison here in a couple minutes too. I went to Madison, not for the CrossFit Games because this was before the CrossFit Games were there. But Brandon’s family lives in Madison, and Brandon convinced me to do a Tarot reading. Which as you guys know, Tarot, I do not begrudge people – who am I to say that stuff is not real? I don’t really take a whole lot of stock in it. So I got this Tarot reading, and it was so awful. It was like, “You’re entering into a cave of wisdom.” I was like, hmm, that doesn’t check out at all.
Joy: And Brandon was super into it.
Claire: He’s like, “Yeah, that’s exactly right.” And I was like, “No.”
Joy: That tracks.
Claire: Does not track. So that’s what that reference is from. As a follow up to the colonoscopy comment.
Claire: Please send us your recommendations for Joy.
Joy: Tips and tricks.
Claire: I have heard that you have to drink a bunch of stuff the day before.
Claire: But I’ve heard it sort of compared to the pregnancy gestational diabetes test where it’s like horror stories, and then when you actually do it it’s like, that wasn’t as big of a deal. And I’ve heard to get the liquid and make sure that it’s cold. Because drinking a bunch of lukewarm liquid, that seems to always be at the root of the problem of these tests. People are like, “Yeah, it was room temperature.” Well, there’s your problem. Who wants to drink a gallon of room temperature anything?
Joy: I just want to know what to expect. No one has really told me. Actually, I should just ask my mom. My mom and my dad have had this multiple times. Plenty of people in my life. I am not taking this lightly whatsoever because my aunt passed away from colon cancer. I am not joking around, like, “Oh, I have to get a colonoscopy.” I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying, I’m 45, this is now on my radar officially. I know it can be on your radar for other reasons. But when I went to my checkup recently with my new primary care physician, she was like, “Oh, you’re turning 45. You get to get colonoscopies now.” I was like, yay. And I’m getting a mammogram on Saturday. I’m getting it all done. So anyway, tips, tricks, advice, mental preparation, please send it my way. Would greatly appreciate it.
Claire: I had a mammogram two years ago. I think it was before Covid.
Joy: Mine was last year, and I have to get them annually now.
Claire: I had one because I had a cyst. I’ve heard horror stories. And again, my boobs are so small, the amount of breast tissue involved is minor, so maybe that was part of it.
Joy: I wonder if that’s worse?
Claire: Right. You really have to get in there. They really just squeeze. I wish you guys could see what we’re doing.
Joy: I know. We’re both grabbing our boobs and shoving our boobs into the camera. I think I’m going to put that on reels actually.
Claire: As you should.
Joy: The tech is usually trying to grab every morsel to get it into that plastic thing. Yeah, super fun. Super fun. But anyway, get it done, get it done. No joking, no joking. It is really something serious to get checked out.
Claire: Also in another genre of “get it done,” I donated blood on Saturday. I’ve never done it before. Turns out, it’s really not a big deal. I feel like because I had always seen blood drives as these big productions, I had assumed that donating blood was this huge deal. And it really wasn’t that big of a deal. There is a huge national blood shortage right now. It would be great if ten people who are listening to this episode would go right not and schedule a blood donation in your area. Just Google “blood donation your city.” I was surprised, it was really easy to find an appointment. There were a lot of weekend appointments. I was in and out in 20 minutes.
Joy: That’s amazing.
Claire: I had never gone before. That included the whole intake, everything.
Joy: That’s awesome.
Claire: The actual blood donation, literally I was hooked up for seven minutes.
Joy: Really? That’s so good to know. By the way, thank you to everybody who wrote in a couple months ago when I was talking about drawing blood. So many people were like, it’s a very specific technique. I really appreciate the nurses who wrote in, or whatever profession you were in the medical field, and informed me of that. It’s really good to know. They’re like, “It’s a very specific skill.” And if you’re not doing a lot, that’s why it’s harder for some people. But anyway, did you have a good prick situation?
Claire: Yeah, I mean think about it. If you are the phlebotomist of a blood donation center –
Joy: It’s all you do all day.
Claire: It’s all you do all day. So you are very good at it. It was borderline pain free. I don’t have a single mark or bruise. Yeah. But I will say, I was not prepared for being tired the next day. They were like, “Take it easy for the rest of the day. No strenuous activity.” I donated blood at like three in the afternoon. The next morning at 5am, I wake up to go on a hike with my friend Amanda. We were going to hike Royal Arch, which is a fairly strenuous hike, but it’s not long and I’ve done it a hundred times. It’s in the Chautauqua trail system. We didn’t even get to the real start of the trail. I was in such bad shape. We sat down for probably a good five minutes. I was breathing super hard, having a hard time. Like, man, Claire, I thought you were working out. We’ve got to up the cardio. This is really not going well. Sat down, caught my breath, kept hiking. Within five minutes, I had one of those moment where you feel like you’re going to pass out where all of the sudden, my guts started hurting, I felt super nauseous. I could feel the blood pounding in my ears, and I just sat down exactly where I was in the middle of the trail and was like, I’m going to pass out. I’m going to throw up. I was like, okay, this is well beyond, “Wow, this hike is hard.” This is, “I donated a pint of blood ten hours ago, maybe I should have thought of that.” It did not occur to me that it would have that much of an impact. I’m not a very big person. Maybe a pint of blood is a lot for me. So now I know. The next day, just don’t go on a 5am hike up a mountain. Checkmark. Got it.
Joy: Checkmark, got it.
Claire: Probably a lot of people are like, “Claire, you’re a dummy.” But I didn’t know, guys. To me, that type of a hike is a very standard operating procedure type of hike. Maybe I’m getting a little bit out of breath. I would not consider it a strenuous exercise. Let’s keep in mind here, I’m from Boulder. Strenuous exercise is training in an altitude chamber with a VO2 max on. Not going for a little hike with friends.
Joy: No. That’s really good to know about the blood donation.
Claire: It was so easy.
Joy: And know that if you’re going to a place like that, if people are afraid of needles, it’s really –
Claire: Yeah, they are super on it. It was very, very easy.
Joy: Great, great.
Claire: I will also say that when I walked in, there was this guy hooked up to, now looking back he must have been donating plasma or something. He was getting his blood cycled through this little machine. I was like, oh my gosh, you’re going to be here forever. So there’s all different types of blood donation. I just donated “whole blood” they call it. So straight forward. Anyway, ten out of ten. Huge blood shortage. You taking action about this matters. Just throwing it out there.
Joy: And you can go to Red Cross website?
Claire: Doesn’t matter. Just Google. Actually in Colorado, it’s not Red Cross. It’s Vitalant.
Joy: Oh, okay.
Claire: Or Bonfils is another one. It’s not always Red Cross. If you Google it, it will come up. They have great SEO people. They’re very on the ball for getting me signed up. But if you’re in the Denver area, look up Vitalant or Bonfils I think are the two main ones in the front range.
Joy: Great to know.
Claire: They have centers. You don’t have to wait for a blood drive. I used to think you have to wait until the blood drive mobile pulls up in front of your office. Not the case.
Joy: I really want to donate blood, but I want a listener, someone who maybe does this for a living, to reassure me. I tried to donate blood once, and they were like, I’m not going to do this. Because my veins, they look great. But they roll, they move, they collapse. So the people at the blood donation center were like – this was back when I worked at the DA’s office and they had a blood drive at our office, so we were all going in. And they wouldn’t do it. So now I’m really afraid to go there because someone is going to be like, “No, I’m not going to do it.” And they make it feel like blood is going to start shooting out of my arm because they are so afraid of drawing blood.
Claire: But you get blood drawn at the doctor’s all the time?
Joy: I know. But it’s not for seven minutes.
Claire: No, no, that feels like user error on the part of the donor people.
Joy: So now I’m scared. I mean, I had a ton of blood drawn for when I was potentially going to be –
Claire: Is that Graves’?
Joy: Yeah, and Be the Match. They had a ton of blood draws.
Claire: You’re fine. I feel like maybe they had too many people coming through.
Claire: One nice thing about doing it at the center, it was just me and that other plasma guy.
Joy: Oh, you and just plasma guy?
Claire: Me and plasma guy avoiding eye contact.
Claire: It was great.
Joy: Okay, let’s take a quick break and talk about our favorite people that we do not avoid eye contact with because they’re so good looking. [laughing]
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Joy: Everything. I need to do some Mello tonight. I had a very stressful day, which I’ll briefly mention.
Claire: You did.
Joy: But Ned is the best for upping your stress game if you need those tools. Put it in your toolbox. Ned is a great sponsor. Please support the sponsors that support our podcast. You can get a discount by going to helloned.com/JOY. That’s helloned.com/JOY for 15% off any order. That’s any order. And you do get a moneyback guarantee for your first order if you do not like the products, no questions asked. So please support us. We’ve been doing this a long time, and we love sponsors that stick with us for the long haul, and that is Ned. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Ned.
Claire: Okay, so tomorrow – actually today by the time you guys are hearing this. Or even yesterday. The CrossFit Games are starting.
Joy: What? What just happened?
Claire: I forgot what day it was. Today is Tuesday. The CrossFit Games start tomorrow. When you guys hear this on Thursday, it will have been yesterday. We’re going to time travel with you to Thursday. Okay so yesterday, the CrossFit Games are happening in Madison this week, and I’m having a lot of FOMO. This is only the second year since 2013 that I haven’t gone. The only other time I didn’t go was in 2020 for obvious reasons. We went last summer.
Joy: Well because they didn’t have it in 2020, right?
Claire: They had a little something at the ranch.
Claire: We’re not going obviously. Joy and I were kind of reflecting. I have FOMO, but it’s more that I have nostalgia.
Joy: I have nostalgia FOMO, yeah. I just have to take a trip down memory lane. The people who aren’t CrossFitters or didn’t really follow us during our CrossFit days, just go on this journey with us because it’s really full of love.
Claire: Let’s just enjoy this.
Joy: But I think that back in the day when the CrossFit Games were in Carson, I think the first time I went, Mom Sandy met me there. Scott got this amazing hotel room at the Hilton, and Sandy stayed with me for the night. I just remember, you and Brandon drove, and didn’t you have a horrible hotel room? Were you pregnant that first year that we went?
Joy: I just remember that one year you had this horrible room that was so hot.
Claire: The first time that Brandon and I went was in 2013 when we had just started the podcast.
Joy: Okay. I wasn’t there.
Claire: But you weren’t there.
Claire: Next year was 2014 when we all went. And then the following year in 2015 was the year I was pregnant and I had this horrible hotel room. My feet were so swollen the whole time, and I had horrible calf cramps. We stayed in this hotel room that was like – because the thing about Carson you guys, it is not a nice town. We stayed in this really crappy, cheap hotel room. The entire hotel smelled like somebody had been heating up broccoli in the microwave. We had a double bed. Which sharing a double bed with Brandon, the entire lower half of his legs hang off the bed. And I was six months pregnant, so I was really big. It was horrible. And then we came to your hotel room for something, and you had this suite. I was like, this is fine…
Joy: You’re like, can I just sleep on the floor and sit here in the AC?
Claire: Exactly. In 2013 and 2014, we stayed at my mom’s house in San Diego and would drive up every morning.
Joy: I remember that.
Claire: We were commuting between San Diego.
Claire: Which is almost like a two-hour drive, I want to say.
Joy: Oh my God. I just have memories of the first Carson Games being so much fun because everything was really coming to life. I feel like that was CrossFit’s sweet spot. Don’t you agree? It was kind of the sweet spot where things were super exciting –
Claire: For us, it was. It was getting really popular, but it wasn’t so crazy that you had to get reservations in the stadium yet. The tickets weren’t selling like hot cakes. You could still go to the tent and meet all the athletes you really wanted to meet. And 2013 was the year that I did that car tire thing with Christmas Abbott.
Joy: That’s so great.
Claire: I have this nostalgia for feeling like this is Disney Land. All of my hobbies right now are completely focused on CrossFit, and I’m going to this place where everyone else is focused on CrossFit. And CrossFit at the time was still kind of subversive, so you would see somebody with their nanos on, and you’d be like, “Do they know?” Everyone was walking around with their Tupperwares full of sweet potatoes. It just felt very like, “Oh my gosh, these are my people.” And I think over the years as we have become less and less those people and as CrossFit got bigger and bigger, it felt a little bit less like going to the meetup of the secret club. Versus now you’re at this convention. We’ve talked about this a thousand times. I loved Madison. I loved being in Madison. It’s so convenient for us because Brandon’s family is in Madison, but nothing will ever compare to the early days at Carson.
Claire: I’m seeing all the athlete check ins right now. But I don’t even know most of the athletes anymore.
Joy: Yeah, I don’t know most of the athletes.
Claire: We aren’t in that world.
Joy: Yeah, we aren’t in that world. I think the place we were in when the CrossFit Games were really kind of ramping up and the CrossFit stars were – again, it’s the equivalent to me of the rise of a star. Where you think of Billie Eilish, her sophomore album that just kind of blew up. She was all the sudden riding – everything was top, top, top. I feel like on that smaller scale for CrossFit, that’s what it was. Instagram was there. Instagram was this new thing that was blowing up and giving them this platform. For us, it was the mysteriousness, the mystery, the mystique of Dave Castro and us really wanting to break into that scene. So we were in a completely different place too. We were in that place where we were idolizing all these people.
Claire: We were going to CrossFit every day at home.
Joy: Yeah, we wanted in. We just wanted in. And when Reebok would send us a ton of clothes and shoes, we’d be like, “We made it.” That felt really special. And we did meet such great friends and such great people that were in CrossFit HQ. The first time we got invited to CrossFit HQ, and I think Claire and I have talked about this privately of just now that we have our podcast focused on our lives and this journal/diary-type of podcast is we don’t have something to hang our hat on in terms of a goal. Like meeting Greg Glassman or meeting Dave Castro or getting connected with Reebok and getting in on the club, so to speak. There is a reason behind that, but I think that’s what we miss a little about that. We don’t have that connection. The podcast had a main purpose. And now it is a little out there floating of where are we going to attach to?
Claire: Right. It’s a good thing and a bad thing. We don’t feel so tied to that content. But at the same time, we don’t have a tie to really anything than just ourselves. Which is fun.
Joy: Which is fun.
Claire: You know, it’s great. I think it is crazy to realize I recognize some of these athletes, but I don’t really know them. And I really only recognize the ones that have been around for a couple years. Most of those athletes who were in that first wave of Instagram famous CrossFit athletes are pretty much retired or they’ve moved on to do team. I even look at Lauren Fisher who was the youngest athlete ever, and now even she went team and is on that wave of athletes who are not at the cutting edge anymore. It’s interesting to watch it. I think we made the analogy that it’s like trying to keep in touch with somebody who you knew really well at one point in your life but now have kind of lost touch with, you just see their Facebook posts.
Joy: Yeah, totally.
Claire: So anyway, if you are going to Madison this week, sorry we’re not there. Maybe next year.
Joy: Yeah. I do miss that feeling of walking around meeting people. I do really miss that. It was so fun. It just felt like Disney Land.
Claire: Last year, Brandon and I went. Joy didn’t go because she was still in the bad breakup job transition.
Joy: I was in a bad breakup phase, yeah.
Claire: This year, it just kind of was not meant to be with all the other stuff that’s been going on this summer. But maybe next year, we’ll make it happen. I still do like making it happen because I know a lot of our longtime listeners do still go. And if nothing else, it’s still fun to have a time to see people and say hi. Like last year, I got to see Kelly, I got to see [UNSURE 40:56] We, a ton of people. Of course I’ll never forget spending time with David and his family. That was so great.
Joy: I’ll never forget seeing David for the first time in Carson and taking a picture with his family. Truly, we have made so many good friends through this podcast. Like salt of the earth people. In case people are listening like, “What kind of community do you have?” We have the best salt of the earth people.
Claire: So good.
Joy: I think of Mira. I think of Kelly. I think of Meagan. I think of Donna. I think of Sandy. I think of Zach.
Claire: I mean, Sandy is like her own little – Jessie.
Joy: Tina. Sassy. Laura Ligos.
Claire: I mean, I feel like we are going to exclude people if we don’t name them.
Joy: I know. Will. All of you. I feel like I’m at the Oscars. This is what’s going to happen at the Oscars. Who did I forget to thank? I forgot to thank my husband. I would like to thank my co-host, Claire. I would not be here without you.
Claire: Oh Lord. So all that to say, we’re clearly feeling a little nostalgic.
Joy: Just inner feelings today.
Claire: Just reminiscent. I mean, even remember when we were walking around like, “Look at that weight belt. That’s such a good weight belt.”
Joy: Totally, oh my gosh.
Claire: Remember when we used to get that excited about bootie shorts with lemons on them or something.
Joy: Seriously. If anyone needs a weight belt by the way, I have a small one that I don’t wear anymore. I’d love to donate to someone who needs it. Just let me know.
Claire: Hand it down.
Joy: Yeah. It’s a really nice one too. It’s one of those really thick ones with the buckle buckle, not Velcro. Anyway, if anyone wants it. Seriously.
Claire: Send us a DM.
Joy: I can hook you up.
Claire: Actually, don’t send us a DM. Send us an email.
Joy: Yeah, email. It will get lost.
Joy: Thank you.
Claire: So let’s talk a little bit about what happened today. Then we can process for a moment and then move on.
Joy: And then move on, yeah. So I woke up this morning. You know those morning where you just start like, ugh, I’m just in my head. Maybe I’m in a weird mood. Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed or whatever. So I already kind of felt like it was a weird day. I take the dogs on a walk this morning. I usually take them on a short walk in the morning when it’s cooler out. It’s been really hot. So I’m walking to this park that we always go to. Whenever I see dogs on our walk – I usually recognize people in our neighborhood, and I usually know most of the dogs. But even if I know people, I just go to the other side of the street. Because I don’t want dogs tangled together. They always want to say hi. I’m not in the mood for that. There is a time and place for it. Most of the time on morning walks, people just have that etiquette to go on the other side and avoid each other. But we would wave and say hi. But you just kind of etiquette know that if you get dogs close to each other, they’re going to try and sniff and play or whatever. It’s just annoying, okay. So we go to this park, and it’s a pretty small park. It’s by this senior center. It has a little walkway in it, so it’s really cute. One of those kind of parks that has a sidewalk so that every so often there is a little exercise station so that you can do little pull-ups. They have a twisty wheel. Or you have, I don’t know, something where you can twist your waist or do a backbend. It’s one of those kind of parks. So we go around, and we’re walking towards this park, and I see this huge Great Dane. Do not recognize this couple. Granted, it’s not like I know everyone in my neighborhood, but for the most part I know people in my neighborhood. Never seen this dog before. So we’re approaching him, and I’m kind of keeping an eye on it. I’m cutting through to go to the other side of the park because I don’t want to pass this dog. He’s huge. I don’t know this couple. But I’m trying to do the nice etiquette thing where I’m also waiting to say hello. So as we’re cutting – and we’re not cutting in front of them. I’m cutting to the side of them. Veering the opposite direction if you will. They look at us, and the woman of the couple – it was a man and a woman. And the woman says, “Oh, what a cute puppy.” I said, “Oh, thanks.” And we’re starting to walk away, but the dog just starts lunging, lunging towards us. I kind of stop and freeze because I’m trying to get the dogs to go with me, but the dogs are stopping because they are clearly aware of this dog lunging at them. So Joe and JT are just kind of staring. I’m trying to pull them away. Next thing I know, this dog just charges towards us and breaks away from the owners. Completely pummels Joe. When I’m saying this dog is a huge Great Dane, he is probably up to my boobs. That’s how tall. And I’m 5’8”, so he was so tall. Just completely tackles Joe. Joe is freaking out and whining and screaming. I drop the leash. In Canine Companions training, they always say if a dog attacks your dog, you can do your best to push the dog off of your dog but drop the leash because you do not want to get bit. And it also can cause more aggression if you’re trying to pull your dog away. So they always say drop the leash. So I drop the leash because I’m in a panic, and that’s one of those things that you don’t know what to do – you don’t know what you’re going to do until you’re in the moment. The dog is attacking Joe. I can see him literally biting on Joe. The owners – and I start yelling. I’m like, “No, no, no, no!” And so I let go of JT as well. JT was just standing there observing. JT is not a fighter.
Claire: He’s just being an old man.
Joy: He’s being an old man. And I knew that if I drop JT’s leash, he wouldn’t go anywhere. He was just going to stay there. So the couple finally gets this dog off of Joe. Joe takes off sprinting the other way. It’s a neighborhood. It’s a very quiet neighborhood. So it’s not like a main road, but he starts taking off towards the street. Holy… apples. So I start running toward the street calling him, “Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe.” And I’m like yelling and yelling. I have my treat bag and the treats are flying everywhere. Finally he stops. Like a good boy. Like a good, sweet boy, he finally stops and turns around because he has the best recall and he’s so good at keeping eye contact with me that he doesn’t bolt and try to run away across the street. He just stops and turns and looks at me. So I run up to him. I grab his leash, and I’m petting him. I’m checking out his body. The guy of the couple has JT on the leash, and the girl kind of took the dog a little bit farther way. So I take Joe, and I tell the guy. “Hey, you can just drop his leash. He’ll come to me.” But the guy was really nice. He starts walking towards me. He’s like, “I am so sorry.” He just apologizes profusely. Profusely. Which was so kind. And it was a weird accident. It’s not something that I was mad at them for. I was just so, so shaken. I take JT from him, and he’s like, “I am so sorry.” I’m looking at Joe to make sure there’s no blood, there’s no puncture wounds. Thankfully there’s not. I’m said, “It’s okay.” Which I hate saying it’s okay because it wasn’t okay. But in the moment, I was like, “It’s okay. It was just a really big dog, and Joe is very small.” I think that’s what I said. I didn’t want to get mad because this guy felt horrible.
Claire: You didn’t want to be like, “What the hell was that? Take control of your giant dog.”
Joy: Yeah. I was in shock, and I just wanted to get out of there. I literally just wanted to time travel to a different moment because I was so mad. But also, I don’t want to get into it with this guy. I don’t know these people. They were like our age. They were young and looked really cute and hip.
Claire: 30’s, 40’s.
Joy: Yeah. Cute and hip and fun. And I didn’t want to be a jerk. Which whatever. I didn’t need to be a jerk in that moment. It was just more, let me get out of here and get my dog away from this situation. JT was unphased, which is hilarious. So we start walking away, and Joe is just clearly shaken. He is jumping up on me. Which is a sign with him that he is trying to get into my arms kind of thing. So it wasn’t like he’s jumping like excited. He was jumping like, “Get me out of here. I’m trying to get into your arms so you can hold me” type of thing. So we finally get home, and he’s fine. I think we’re all just freaked out. I tell Scott, and I’m like, “I am just so exhausted.” I was like that feeling when you just go through something, and it’s like the biggest adrenaline jump, and all day you feel like you’re kind of floating out of your body. That’s where I’m at today.
Claire: That’s the feeling that I associate with if you get rear ended on your way to work or something.
Joy: Totally. Exactly.
Claire: Start the day with just what flood of adrenaline.
Joy: Totally. Something like that. Luckily, I have a great community here. People in the CCI community are just so helpful on our little Facebook group. And we have a puppy program manager. She’s like our liaison any time you have a question about the dog. You can reach out to her, ask questions, ask any concerns if something like this comes up. So I just said hey, this is what happened. Is there anything I can do to build his confidence? Because really what you don’t want – and I don’t want this to happen to any dog. Sadly when I posted this on Instagram, so many people have been through something like this. It is just devastating to me, and I’m so sorry that you’ve had to go through it. It’s terrifying. It’s my worst nightmare. This is the thing that I’ve always worried about when I’m walking my dogs is some random dog coming up to us. But the piece that’s really worrisome for me is that Joe will develop a fear. He’s young. He’s only 6 months old. That he will now develop a fear of other dogs. And that’s a concern because he won’t be able to work if he can’t get through that. So what we’re going to focus on is having really positive experiences with dogs. We usually only take him places where he knows dogs anyway. I think we’re going to be super mindful of taking him places and having positive dog interactions. I’ve had a couple local people reach out. They’re like, “I have a really, really sweet dog that’s a big dog.” I do too. I have friends with really huge dogs that are so sweet. I think that’s what he needs right now.
Claire: Yeah. Positive reinforcement.
Joy: I’m going to keep an eye on it. My hope is that it didn’t make it worse. Just by nature, Joe is a very sensitive, sweet little dog. He’s got a sensitive heart. Cadet was like – I’ve said this before – fiery, determined, headstrong. She could get pummeled by five dogs and roll around and get right back up and start playing again. Whereas Joe kind of cowers when big dogs come up to him. He’s kind of a little skittish, and he runs between my legs and tries to get a little more passive. We will keep you posted on him, but that just happened this morning, so I’m still king of in that headspace.
Claire: I think also for some context, you’re not friends with this person, but you know of another service dog who went through something like this and was attacked by a dog in their puppy raising years, and then it went on and was not able to graduate because they developed a fear of other dogs.
Claire: This is not an abstract, random fear of, “Oh, this could happen.”
Claire: This happens.
Joy: This happens. Sadly when I posted in our private Facebook group today for Canine Companions, because I was like, “I’ve already reached out to our puppy program manager, but I want to hear if anyone else has gone through this what they’ve done to help their dog.” It’s so sad how common this is. Because so many people have responded like, “Yep, happened to me,” “Yep, happened to me.” It’s like half and half. It’s 50/50 of my dog developed a fear and aversion to dogs, and they didn’t pass, and they got released from the program or they were able to work through it. So it is totally 50/50 at this point. So I’m a little worried about that piece because you go into this raising a dog hoping that they’re going to be confident and graduate. I think he’s got plenty of time to work through this. It’s just a matter of me being really mindful to work extra hard to build his confidence back up. I think on some level, I am probably more freaked out than he is, so I have to keep that in check too.
Claire: And that’s so hard too because you know that animals and dogs especially pick up your subconscious feelings.
Joy: On your energy, yeah.
Claire: So you’re like, how do I act like I’m cool without acting like I’m cool.
Claire: Like I need to act like I’m acting.
Joy: Just be chill.
Joy: So I think going on walks, I’m just going to be super confident. Normal walks with him. The normal routine that we do. And just stay away from that area. Just go the other routes that we go. But yeah, one of our acquaintances – actually she is now a trainer at Canine Companions. If you follow @fosteringpuppies on Instagram, she’s a great follow. She’s such a love. We met her at Oceanside because now she’s a trainer for Canine Companions. So she actually raised a dog named Phil a few years ago. Phil was attacked in her school. She studied animal interventions, like animal-assisted therapy. And a dog in that program just walked by Phil and completely attacked him. Phil did exhibit some fear and aggression towards other dogs when he went to advanced training, and that’s just devastating. You know that accidents like this happen. You try so much to prevent it. But when it does, you never know how it’s going to affect their psyche and their confidence. That’s why I get on my high horse and soap box about do not take untrained dogs, especially into public places, where service dogs might be present. Because it can really change their career path. It can ruin their career path.
Claire: It sounds like these people were obviously very upset that it happened as well.
Joy: Oh, so upset, yeah.
Claire: Also, we got a lot of comments today on our stories. We hear a lot of stories about people not worrying about their poorly-behaved dog, like, “Oh, they’re fine.” No, put your dog on a leash. This is why you get so fired up about pet dogs trying to pass as service animals in public places. If they don’t have this level of training from when they’re literally born, then you can’t rely on them in the same way that you can rely –
Joy: And predictability is the thing that you need when you’re going out in public. These are animals. These are animals. You have no idea how they are going to react if they’re in a setting that they’ve never been in before. It’s very unethical for the dog. It’s totally stressful for the dog, which is why they react. But this couple was so – at least, the guy. The girl I didn’t really see because I think she took this dog far away. But the guy could not have been nicer. I felt for him of how he was apologizing. I think that’s why I just wanted to get out of there. I was like, I know that you feel really bad, but I don’t want to take this on from you right now. I need to get out of here. I don’t need to take on your sorry right now. I need to go.
Claire: And also, that’s an appropriate reaction. You don’t have to fix that. His reaction in that is very appropriate. He’s not feeling remorseful for something that he should not be feeling remorseful for.
Claire: That was my reaction when you texted me this morning, “They were so sorry.” I hope they were sorry. Don’t take your enormous, horse-sized, aggressive, out of control dog on a walk if you can’t control it on a leash. I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t know what your other options are. I can’t help you with that. Put a muzzle on her or something. I think there are a lot of humane ways to muzzle dogs.
Joy: Oh, absolutely.
Claire: If that’s something that you need to do. But you can’t pretend that that’s not the issue and just take your dog out and hope for the best because you’re setting yourself up for a situation like this. Our previous dog before River, who is just too stupid to be reactive, Luna was so reactive. We had to very, very cautious and very explicit with what we did with her and how we managed her and where we were when we were in different situations with her. Other dogs she could be around, other people, other kids. It was never something that was far from our minds of how are we going to manage Luna, or let’s just not take her. Especially around other dogs. I mean, we spent hundreds upon hundreds, practically thousands of dollars on training for her to try and get her over that. She still never fully became non-reactive. Anyway, I think it’s just important to be honest with yourself about the type of personality that your dog has because in the end – I saw Marie @shelter_mom_ on Instagram also.
Joy: Oh @shelter_mom_, fantastic follow.
Claire: She posted something of, “Reactive dogs are still good dogs.” And I think that that’s true.
Claire: But I think that you have to be honest with yourself about the situation that you’re in with your dog and what they can handle.
Joy: What they can handle.
Claire: That’s all we’re saying.
Joy: Yep. This has been dog talk 101.
Claire: Dog talk, CrossFit talk, therapy talk.
Joy: It’s been a day. Like I said, I’m still kind of in that aftershock mode. I think I’m going to sleep really well tonight because I was just like, adrenaline dump. So yeah, we’re going to schedule some good, fun, light play dates with some very sweet dogs and get Joe Joe back to his confident level self.
Claire: Oh Joe Joe.
Joy: Oh Joe Joe.
Claire: Alright guys, well that is it for this week. Thank you for joining us. Don’t forget to check out our sponsor, Ned. That’s helloned.com/JOY or use discount code JOY for 15% off all your orders, 30-day money back guarantee on your first order. Check out their Daily Blend, their Mello Magnesium are some of our favorites. The Sleep Blend, the Stress Blend. We just love all their products, and we love the company, and we love what they stand for. So thank you for supporting the brands that support our podcast. You can find us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. We are online at joyandclaire.com. You can email us email@example.com. We love getting your messages. We love reading them. We just love interacting with you guys, so please feel free to reach out. But just a reminder that if you do have something really important that you want us to read, put it in an email, not in a DM. Because DM’s get lost so easily. Thank you, guys, for being here. We’ll talk to you next week.
Joy: Bye, guys.