60: Open to Rethinking

February 4, 2021

Claire’s recent migraine scare, dreaming of Camp Timeout, Joy’s current favorite podcasts, the Paris Hilton documentary, Adam Grant’s new book Think Again, and how to make friends as an adult.

Adam Grant article

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 60: Open to Rethinking

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

Audio Length: 50:51 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: This is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. Thank you for tuning in to yet another episode of us talking to you.

Claire: [laughing] Aren’t you so glad we’re here again?

Joy: Really? I think you are. How’s it going? How’s your week been so far, Claire? This is Tuesday. What happened yesterday? Do you want to talk about what happened to your eyeballs/

Claire: Sure, I can talk about what happened with my eyeballs. So I think it was a migraine. I was driving in the middle of the day, and I started getting blurry kind of weird floaters. And then it kind of just turned into this super weird peripheral vision bottom of the pool type of waviness. And my mom had her retina detach sporadically – spontaneously, I should say, not sporadically. I hope not 

Joy and Claire: Sporadically.

Claire: Spontaneously. Probably like about maybe eight or nine or more years ago at this point. So she’s completely blind in one eye. And so I’m obviously heightened sensitivity about that. I kind of freaked out. It didn’t go away right away. It just felt kind of similar to if I had maybe just looked right into a bright light and had to try and blink it away, but I couldn’t blink it away. And it came on really suddenly. It really freaked me out. So I called my eye doctor and got in for a same-day eye doctor appointment, which I was really impressed that I could even do that, just to make sure my retina wasn’t detaching. And my retina was fine. So we think that it was a migraine or a migraine aura. I do get migraines. I have gotten migraines since Miles was born. I had never had a migraine in my life, and then I had my first one when he was maybe three or four months old, and ever since then I’ve had them fairly regularly, maybe once a month or so. But I’ve never had an aura before. Normally when I have a migraine, I start to feel it coming on. If I don’t some Excedrin within twenty minutes, it’s going to hit and I’m going to be down for the count for the rest of the day.

Joy:  Yeah, it’s not like a headache. It’s a migraine.

Claire: No, it’s super intense. I’ve gone to the emergency room for migraines before. They’re very intense. But I can manage them with Excedrin and whatever.

Joy: The headache medicine.

Claire: The headache medicine. The Excedrin migraine or whatever, which apparently – anyway. 

Joy: You wanted to go down that rabbit hole, did you?

Claire: Well, the reason I take it instead of migraine med is because one of my friends who’s a nurse told me that it did just as well as prescription migraine medication in double blind studies. So I’ve never even been to a neurologist about my migraines. I just manage it with over-the-counter stuff. So point of the story is I’ve never had an ocular migraine, nor have I had a migraine aura before. So I called Brandon. He was at work. He works with a bunch of doctors. He was sort of like, hey, is Claire having a stroke, does she need to come in?

Joy: Right, right, right.

Claire: And that’s where your brain goes, right?

Joy: Totally, of course.

Claire: It’s like, oh my God, am I having a stroke, is my brain tumor taking over, what’s going on.

Joy: We’ve done too many Google searches about our health to know anything about what’s really going on.

Claire: Yeah. And this is something where – when I was a backpacking instructor, I had to take Wilderness First Responder, and pretty much –

Joy: “Woofa?”

Claire: “Woofer.”

Joy: I just remember some friends, I had some friends at the other job that would call it a “woofer.”

Claire: Yeah, my WFR. So Wilderness First Responder. And basically what they teach you, it’s a week-long course and what they teach you is more or less the skills you need to decide whether or not something is an emergency that requires evacuation. You aren’t taught how to treat anything, but they really drill in here’s what you’re looking for when you need to call a helicopter. And one of the things that they tell you with neurologic symptoms is the big red flag for neurologic symptoms is super sudden onset. You know, if you’re getting a headache over the course of the day, it’s building up, there’s some things going on. But if you’re totally fine and then crack of thunder massive headache, that’s a huge red flag. So that’s why I was so freaked out because I was driving, I was fine. Split second, now my vision has changed. So that freaked me out. Anyway, so after Brandon having gotten some unofficial medical advice, me having talked to a few other people, I am fairly sure it was related to a migraine. Though I never developed a headache.

Joy: Oh interesting.

Claire: So that was the other weird thing. Had I had this and then gotten a migraine, it would have been like, oh this is a new weird migraine symptom. But it didn’t’ follow any of the patterns of a normal migraine. So I’ve decided what I’m going to do is see if it happens again. Then I will make an appointment specifically for this problem. If it doesn’t happen again, then the next time I’m in for a physical I’ll bring it up. Because even though I started having migraines five years ago, I’ve never been to a neurologist. I did go to a neurologist once because I have a tremor.

Joy: Hand, right? Yeah.

Claire: But he basically was like, “Yeah, this happens sometimes, goodbye.” And so I don’t like have a neurologist.

Joy: Yep. You’re normal.

Claire: He was like, “Yeah, sometimes healthy people just randomly start tremoring for the rest of their life. Enjoy life.” And I was like, okay, guess I’ll just revisit this every few years.

Joy: I’m laughing, but it’s not funny. I’ve had doctors tell me that too where they’re like, “Yeah, that just happens.”

Claire: This just happens now. It’s like that Jim Gaffigan bit where he’s like, “Okay, so you got to do these exercises on your ankle.” “Oh, how long do I have to do those for?” “No, you just do that now.” Was it Jim Gaffigan? It might have been Louis C.K. Anyway. So if you have had ocular migraines and this sound like an ocular migraine, I’d be curious just to have that validation.

Joy: Please chime in. Yeah, let’s validate symptoms.

Claire: If you have had a brain tumor and this sounds like a brain tumor, I don’t think I want to hear about it.

Joy: Yeah, this is similar to people… what are the things people tell you about? Oh yeah. 

Claire: Moths in your ears. When my biggest fear is, I have this irrational fear of moths in my ears, and everyone’s like, “No, that’s not irrational. My brother’s sister’s friend -“ and I’m like, why would you tell me that?

Joy: Yeah, people will DM us actual stories and I delete them because I’m like, Claire does not need to see this.

Claire: Why? Why would you be like, “Hey Claire, you know that super random fear you’ve convinced yourself is irrational so that you can get through the day? It’s not irrational.” 

Joy: I will never forget though. I’ve been reminiscing so much about Camp Timeout lately, just because I really want to travel. I’ve been reminiscing about every trip I’ve ever been on in my entire life, and recently Camp Timeout is on the forefront of my mind. And I just will never forget, A, how amazing that amphitheater was where we did an episode. But, B, how a moth almost flew in your ear.

Claire: A moth almost flew into my ear in real time.

Joy: [laughing]

Claire: Guys, so intense.

Joy: Okay, let’s move on. Can we talk about your nail polish? 

Claire: Oh okay.

Joy: It looks great. Let’s talk about your nail polish.

Claire: Yeah, right. This is like day… I think –

Joy: I think it was this weekend.

Claire: It was on Thursday maybe, even.

Joy: Oh wow.

Claire: So I’m going on day five, and this is me living my life. I don’t do a base coat or a top coat because I’m not a fancy human who has time for three separate coats of things to dry.

Joy: No, nobody does. I never do that. 

Claire: No, 0% of the time.

Joy: I do those drops that – Seche Vite. But I’ve been hearing that the Olive & June drier drops are fantastic, and I’ll get to where I heard that from in just a moment, but yet.

Claire: Well I just do my nails while the kids are in the bath and hope to God that they dry before I have to get them out of the bath.

Joy: Yeah, it’s just a gamble.

Claire: So that’s why I literally have my nails painted. So the brand is called Suite Eleven. Suite like a bougie apartment. It’s vegan. The top ten allergen free. I believe it’s a black-owned business as well. And I really love the colors. One of them is called Saturn and Jupiter or Jupiter and –

Joy: It’s very pretty. Its’ very you. It’s kind of this cool, purple color.

Claire: Yeah, it’s kind of this dark, dusty purple.

Joy: Plum, yeah.

Claire: And the other one is called Tea Time, which is sort of this –

Joy: Mint green, which is so on brand for you.

Claire: Yeah, it’s like almost a very, very, very, very pale green tea sort of color.

Joy: Yes, perfectly described. 

Claire: I was really impressed. They dried really quickly. They were affordable. I want to say they were right around $10 or $12 a piece, which feels pretty good for a boutique nail polish. Definitely would recommend. And their colors are all very not rend right now.

Joy: I love that. You know what, there’s only so many pinks and reds that you can buy. Any time I look at a nail polish display, I’m just kind of like, I’m not inspired. I need something. But really, how many colors of the rainbow can we do.

Claire: I mean, I usually like Essie. I like their colors.

Joy: Yeah, Essie’s good too.

Claire: I also don’t browse like I used to. I used to just go to Target and stand there for five minutes and pick out a slightly different shade of dusty purple. And now I can just do that on the internet.

Joy: Right, yeah, exactly.

Claire: Yeah. So I’m really excited to have a beauty product.

Joy: I can’t believe you don’t use drying drops.

Claire: I have never –

Joy: I need to send some to you. So I am, no surprise, obsessed with this new-to-me – thank you, listener, for introducing me to my new favorite podcast called Gloss Angeles. Gloss Angeles is my favorite podcast. It’s by these two amazing women. They’re both beauty editors. They know what they’re talking about. They’re super relatable. They give great advice about products. You have to listen to it. Please support them. They’re awesome. So I heard about the Olive & June dry drops for your nails, and one of the hosts just had a baby, so she was like, “I need my nails do dry in like a second. I can’t waste time.” So I’m going to try the Olive & June drier drops. Because they were both like, “I like the Seche Vite” – and I’m probably saying it wrong, but whatever, you guys know what I’m talking about. It’s that clear gel that literally dries your nails in like a minute. And they said it was better than that, so I’m like, do tell. But the thing with the Seche Vite is it does get a little goopy if you don’t use it pretty quickly. It’s not a product that you can use over the year, so I found it gets kind of solid and then your nails get really clumpy. But anyway, Gloss Angeles. Hopefully we can go met them in Los Angeles.

Claire: I know, for real. You got to start doing an Instagram stalking, and we can have them on our podcast.

Joy: I already stalk them and tag them, and they reposted our sosh.

Claire: Great, come on our podcast.

Joy: Yes, I’m like, please.

Claire: Please.

Joy: And they’re just really relatable. I like hosts that you obviously can feel like, I want to sit down and talk with these girls.

Claire: Yeah, like this podcast for example.

Joy: [laughing] Yeah, okay. Thank you, Gloss Angeles ladies. Do we want to talk about our new social media platform that we really don’t –

Claire: Oh my gosh, that we have no idea what it is.

Joy: Well we do, but we don’t. And we also are like [sigh] this is just like the gold rush where everybody tries to get on this social platform and then it kind of goes away.

Claire: Do you remember that other one that was kind of like this a couple of years ago? What was it even called? I can’t even remember.

Joy: It starts with a “P.” What was the one that you can livestream? Everyone’s yelling it, everyone’s yelling it. It starts with a “P.” Blah blah blah… Platypus.

Claire: Just start saying “P” words, and eventually it will come up.

Joy: Pumaria. 

Claire: Pumaria. [laughing] Uh, social platforms.

Joy: Pinwheels.

Claire: Pinwheels. I feel like there was one a couple years ago. I’m thinking of a different one than you.

Joy: Oh, okay.

Claire: And it started with an E I think actually. 

Joy: Okay.

Claire: I don’t know. Anyway. And it was a similar type of thing where it was like, there’s no advertising, you have to get an invite or we’re going to crash the servers.

Joy: Oh, yes, yes, yes. There was an email for that too. There was this cool email thing that nothing ever happened with it.

Claire: Nothing ever happened with it. So we’re on Clubhouse. That’s what we’re talking about. It’s called Clubhouse. It’s only so far for iPhone people, so we know that’s a problem. And you have to have an invite, so whatever that means. We’re on it. We haven’t figured out how to use it. We’re not doing anything on there that’s groundbreaking. So if you’re not on it, don’t have FOMO.

Joy: Don’t have FOMO.

Claire: But if you are on it, you can follow us if you want and eventually we might have a group for Joy and Claire.

Joy: So I think the thing I’ve noticed people using it the most for is connection, networking, if you want to just kind of chime into someone that is a piece of content that you’re interested in or a topic that you’re interested in, then you can chime – or listen. You could chime in if you wanted to, but you can listen to someone having a talk about running, having a talk about how to create a blog, how to create a podcast. But it’s not a live video. You can listen to it while you’re walking if you want. But it’s not recorded. So it’s this unique, exclusive, you have to catch it or it goes away. A little bit of a Snap Chat for audio in a way.

Claire: Yeah, right. It’s basically like a public Marco Polo.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: So we’re trying to figure that out, but don’t feel left out if you’re not on Clubhouse because I also can’t even, I don’t know…

Joy: Periscope! Periscope.

Claire: Oh, Periscope. And the one I was thinking of was Ello.

Joy: Ello. 

Claire: [British accent] Ello.

Joy: [British accent] Ello. Totally remember that. What apps do you think, -let’s listen to this in a year from now – what apps do you think are going to stay forever?

Claire: Okay, so here’s what I always think. Remember when we were friends with Lisa Bilyeu?

Joy: Yes.

Claire: Yeah, okay. So as you guys know, Lisa and Tom Bilyeu, who now have this booming YouTube channel, Joy and I were friends with Lisa for a little while and we went to her house, her beautiful house.

Joy: Which we could still call her up and go see her.

Claire: I mean, I’m being sort of sarcastic. I’m sure she would still love to see us, and we would still love to see her.

Joy: She is so kind, she’s so kind.

Claire: She’s so kind. And her house is just full of Quest bars.

Joy: Full of Quest bars. It’s for real. And cute dogs, yeah.

Claire: But the point of the story is I remember her telling us that you never know when something is going to pick up and so you might as well dip your toe in and be ready in case it does pick up, and that’s how you become an early adopter and stay ahead of the trends. She was like, you know, right now we’re experimenting with this thing where Alexa gives you your daily news every morning and it’s native to Alexa, but if you are an early adopter you can be a content creator for Alexa and get in on that. I don’t have an Alexa, but I don’t feel like that ever took off, this native to Alexa news debrief.

Joy: No, I don’t either.

Claire: But I just remember her using that as an example of, we are working on that now because if it does take off we want to be ready. And I feel like Clubhouse has been around for several months now but I feel like it’s just in the last month started to get –

Joy: Somehow the momentum picked up, and I don’t know who –

Claire: Yeah, and kind of reached critical mass and now –

Joy: It was probably some celebrity that got on and told all their celebrity friends, and then everyone wants to be where celebrities are. You know, like us.

Claire: Yeah, and then Elon Musk did a live on it last night or whatever. And so whatever, maybe it will turn into something, maybe it won’t. I don’t know. I also didn’t think TikTok was going to turn into anything, and here we are.

Joy: That’s so true.

Claire: I also at one point in my life, I didn’t think that iPods were going to make it. So. I am not the one to ask.

Joy: I will never forget the first time Scott got the first iPhone. Was in 2008. I think that was the year it came out, obviously, because Scott will get things the second they are released. And I will never forget being like, “What is that?” and being so jealous of how much time he was on it. I was like, “Why are you always on your phone?” This is the first iPhone. I was very jealous of a phone.

Claire: For iPods, I was like you can’t replace the battery, this isn’t sustainable. What happens when the battery dies? These are the things that we worry about guys back in the late 90’s. It was like, you know, what’s that famous quote, I think it’s Gerald Ford or someone, I don’t know. “If I asked my clients what they wanted, they would have said a bigger horse.” Or a faster horse. Or then there’s this other famous climate change anecdote where it’s like, we might be creating solutions to yesterdays’ problems that at the turn of the century everyone was freaked out because if the population keeps growing at this rate there’s no way we’ll be able to keep up with all the horse poop for everybody’s horses. That was the concern. You always have to have this perspective that we might be stressing over a problem that the problem will sort of solve itself.

Joy: Speaking of problems, I was just thinking about people who have created a thing. So I watched the Paris Hilton documentary, which is so good by the way, you guys. I know you could feel like why is the Paris Hilton documentary good. It’s so good, and I finished one of my Lego sets watching this documentary. I was like, I can’t just sit on the couch and watch the Paris Hilton documentary.  I will feel really, I don’t know –

Claire: You got to have for of a little stimulation.

Joy: I had to have something, also doing something productive. But actually it was really, really good. She is interviewed about how, I didn’t know she had so much trauma as a kid. I won’t do spoilers, but man, she had a rough childhood. So you learn about that and how she came to be who she is, which I really admire her for her drive. She kind of had this, instead of people who get knocked down being like, “I’m going to turn to drugs and alcohol,” she was like, “I’m going to prove y’all wrong, and I’m going to make so much money,” Look what she’s doing. So she kind of turned her really bad situations into a big f*** you to her haters. But she talks a little bit about how she created the selfie, which is really true. She has so much to do with how social media is today. She kind of birthed that. They ask her, do you have any regret of how people use that now and how they kind of judge themselves on social media and doing filters and having to look beautiful or whatever it is. And she was like, “Yeah, I feel guilty for that and I feel a lot of responsibility for that.” So it’s kind of like that thing of the monster that you created but you had no idea that that would become a thing. Anyway, if anyone wants a good, it’s just good eye candy to watch a good mindless documentary. And it’s really well done, and just how they interview her family and her sister. Her sister’s so smart. These are smart people, but just the lives that they lived, it’s pretty fascinating.

Claire: I mean, yeah, Paris Hilton is not somebody that I look at and thing, you must live an interesting life.

Joy: Yeah. I mean, it’s really, really fascinating. 

Claire: I think of her as like Alexis.

Joy: Yes, totally. And it’s on YouTube only. It’s on her YouTube channel is the place that she released it. She made Kim Kardashian. Without Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian would not have been doing what she’s doing.

Claire: I, like, invented her.

Joy: She 100% invented Kim Kardashian. It’s just crazy.

Claire: I wonder if she gets royalties on that.

Joy: Seriously. I just really, really enjoyed it. And I think it took me back to the days when I was really – I think I was in grad school or right out of grad school and Simple Life came out, so I wasn’t super like – I was out having fun. I wasn’t sitting at home watching television, but I don’t remember watching the Simple Life. I just remember she full-on created a character that’s not who she is, just to kind of sell. I love stories like that. And here’s another podcast recommendation. Even the Rich is one of my favorite podcasts as well. Two fabulous hosts. They’re so funny, so put together, and they recently did a 6-7-episode series on Paris Hilton. They’ve done Britney Spears. They talked about the royals. They just kind of go through a 7-episode series on a rich person and tell their story. It’s really cute.

Claire: I’m surprised we haven’t had a segment – the problem is that I wouldn’t know, you would be like you with a master’s degree in celebrity culture explaining it to me, like a preschooler. What is going on. 

Joy: There’s this girl names Paris, and her parents really loved Paris. That’s why they named her Paris. Yeah, anyway. Listen to Even the Rich. Really great female hosts. 

Claire: Okay. So we, again as you can tell are just going for it in this episode. We are going to cover a few more of your questions and topics that you requested a couple weeks ago. So let’s start with talking about this Adam Grant article that you recently read. It sort of pertains to talking about politics and talking about difficult topics. Go for it.

Joy: Yes. So Adam Grant is obviously one of my favorite researchers, authors. He is an organizational psychologist. He’s had his own podcast, Work Life. He is pretty much everywhere, so anywhere you see the amazing Brené Brown or big researchers, Malcom Gladwell, you’re going to see Adam Grant. So he wrote a book recently, another book called Think Again.

Claire: Can I just make a comment about his book?

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: I haven’t read it, but I saw the picture of him holding it up, and my first thought was, if I have to buy another damn book with a match being blown out on the cover for leadership, I’m sick of it. He needs a new branding specialist. That’s all I have to say.

Joy: Yeah, he does.

Claire: I was mad about it.

Joy: And Claire, that’s okay. I think you’re right to be mad, and he should hire you.

Claire: Thank you for validating my anger over another match being blown out on the front of a leadership book.

Joy: Yeah, or some kind of handshake. There’s a handshake happening, making the deal.

Claire: Guys, we got to move on from the matchstick thing. We get it.

Joy: There’s a lot of schtick.

Claire: There’s a lot of metaphors to be had here, and it’s time to move on.

Joy: It’s time to move on.

Claire: We’ve had them all. Okay, go on.

Joy: Okay, so he wrote an article in the New York Times Opinion. It’s called “The Science of Reasoning with Reasonable People.” So I know he has a lot to talk about this topic with his new book, but this article really kind of encapsulates a lot of what he was writing about in Think Again. I’m not going to go through the whole article obviously, but I just want you guys to – we’ll link it in the show notes – but I want you to read it. I got so much out of it, just really thinking of how we’re talking to people. And I think we know this innately, but when we’re having conversations with “difficult people” or unreasonable people, it got me really thinking of all the conversations I’ve had, especially over the last year. And quite frankly, some in person, some in social media that have really just gotten me fired up and I react, I get angry, I kind of lead from emotions instead of leading from rational brain. So I think the thing that was probably stuck with me the most was, okay, I’m no longer going to, it’s not our place to change anyone’s mind. And I think we innately know that, but all we can do is try to understand their thinking and ask if they’re open to rethinking. So we can’t go back and forth, you’re right, you’re wrong, here’s another article to read. It’s really about, are you just open to having a discussion. He goes on for paragraphs and paragraphs. I’m not going to read the whole thing so you guys can go on and read it about how you talk to or at least understand where other people are coming from. But I think what got me a little bit stuck was someone who I may see as unreasonable may see me as unreasonable. So I guess the only way to get through that is to both be curious about where we’re coming from. The goal should never be that we are going to agree at the end. The goal should be, I just really want to find out where you’re coming from. And if I can feel that I understand where someone is coming from, I think that’s where we’ll feel a little more satisfied with the outcome. I have another example from the same friend that I mentioned a couple episodes ago where I had snoozed her for 30 days because she was posting conspiracy theories. I texted you about, yeah.

Claire: Oh yes. You said this to me.

Joy: I had snoozed her for 30 days. And this is a good friend that I have from growing up, like best friends in high school and junior high and we go on trips every year.

Claire: She’s not like this random poster person, like that other random guy where you’re like why are you even following me.

Joy: It’s not the random guy who said he was at the Capitol. 

Claire: You’re like, “Wait, I’m sorry, you were where now?”

Joy: Where, and I feel really ashamed that you are on my page. What the heck are you doing? I’m sure all my really good friends saw that in the comments and was like, “Who are you friends with, Joy? What is this guy doing?” Okay, so anyway. I had snoozed her for 30 days. This is the gal who wrote me about Trump’s conspiracy theories and how Trump’s a really good guy and this is why. I had tried to understand by asking where she got her sources from, and the conversation kind of ended. So because I had snoozed her, I wasn’t seeing any of her posts. Well recently she posted this picture of, I’m not even going to go, it was some conspiracy theory about this guy –

Claire: Someone dying from the vaccine.

Joy: Someone dying from the vaccine and how this is what Twitter is hiding from us.

Claire: Right, this is what the media doesn’t want you to know.

Joy: So I think Claire and I have both said this before. If you have someone who’s sending you things that says, “This is what the media doesn’t want you to know,” I need you to really question why are they thinking that way.

Claire: Yeah, that’s my favorite – you’re not hearing about this because the media doesn’t want you to know about it. That’s, to me, red flag.

Joy: Red flag, red flag. And it’s just not based in reality. Okay, so she posted that picture, and I’m like, “Noooo.” She’s back on my feed. And I should have ignored it, but I posted three different articles from three different news sources all across the media bias chart that were points against what she posted. And let me tell you this, too. She didn’t just post a link. She didn’t post the source. It was a screenshot.

Claire: Yeah, it was an image.

Joy: It was an image.

Claire: You couldn’t link it to anything.

Joy: Not only that, it’s like who posted this, you know. If you’re going to post shit like that, post a source. And so, [exasperated sigh] I posted three articles from three different sources. I think it’s important to review different sources. I didn’t say anything about the post. I think it might be helpful to review a number of sources when you post things like that. And she responds, “Unfortunately I don’t agree with your fact check.” Unfortunately I don’t agree with your fact check.

Claire: Unfortunately I don’t agree with the facts that you’re showing me. You don’t get to not agree with facts.

Joy: You don’t.

Claire: That’s the crazy thing about facts. It doesn’t matter if you agree with them or not. It’s like [exasperated sigh]. This is the thing.

Joy: It’s like, I just have to exercise my demons. 

Claire: I mean, you do, but at the same time this is the problem that people don’t believe facts.

Joy: I know, I know, so here’s the next. Two more things and we can move on. Someone else chimed in from my high school that probably saw me and was like, “We’re going to get Joy.” Which had me a little bit of back in high school trauma where I was kind of the outcast because I was Mormon and I was like, “Ah, they’re coming after me.” He was like, “Funny how all these articles say he died of natural causes, but they don’t list what the natural cause was.”

Claire: Natural causes. That’s the cause.

Joy: That’s what I said. So I posted the definition of natural causes. I was like, “That’s what natural causes is. It’s dadadada,” and then I post the definition. Come on, you guys.

Claire: It’s because this person was elderly and yeah.

Joy: Come on, come on.

Claire: Here’s the other thing that makes me laugh so much. This is not a thing that makes me laugh, it makes me cry on my pillow because I’m scared. Is that a lot of these are the same people who are saying, “The cause of death only says COVID, but it was really something else.” They’re just listing it as COVID because  – like somebody was saying like –

Joy: They’re excluding information.

Claire: – If they list it as COVID, they get more funding. I was like, that’s not real. That’s not real.

Joy: So not real.

Claire: It’s not listed as COVID when they’re trying to cover something up, and it is listed as COVID when they’re trying to cover something up. So nothing is real. You remember that game Whose Line is it Anyway? where the rules don’t matter and everything’s made up.

Joy: Yes, I love that show.

Claire: I love that show, but that’s what it feels like sometimes.

Joy: But that’s what we’re living.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: That’s what we’re living sometimes. So anyway, I posted the natural causes definition, and I said – I had to jab, I’m so sorry. But I was like, “I understand that you’re not interested in hearing facts, but I would just encourage you to critically think about this.” And then someone else chimed in and was like, “Yeah, this is like 1% death rate” or some shit like that, they don’t even know what they’re talking about. So I posted another couple articles. And then my friend was like, “Yeah, this vaccine, they don’t even know what’s in it. They just take it and don’t even ask questions.” And I said, “Um, so-and-so, if by ‘they’ you mean me, I have done my research” – my article reading, Claire – “I have done my due diligence of finding out about the vaccine, I work in healthcare, I got the first vaccine.” So I kind of explained this thing of – 

Claire: Right, you’re like I haven’t turned into an Antifa zombie yet.

Joy: They just do the vaccine and they don’t even know what’s in it really got me pissed. Because I’m like, if by “they” you might be talking about me because guess what, I got the vaccine. And I kind of was like, I get the flu shot every year for other people. I’m not doing this for myself. I’m doing this for other people. Because guess what? I am young. I’m healthy. Well, relatively speaking, whatever. This is just –

Claire: Also, I don’t want to get the flu. The flu sucks. I’m not worried about dying from the flu, that doesn’t mean I want to get it.

Joy: Again, when you’re around people who are – yeah, we could go down that rabbit hole on a soap box. But I just had to, I was telling one of my other friends, I have to confess my sins. I just got into it with one of my friends on Facebook. And then it made me think of the Adam Grant thing where I’m like, I can’t change their mind. All I can think is can we at least try to rethink this? Think again. Can we rethink this? That’s all we’re asking. I think the thing that bothers me too. What do you think about this? The thing that bothers me too is it seems, and please be a devil’s advocate here –

Claire: You know me, I have no problem calling you out.

Joy: I know, please do. It seems to me that we are focused too much on the extremists, the extreme thinking, the extreme left, the extreme right. So that’s all we see right now. And to me, extremists don’t really want to listen to other options, do they? Or do they?

Claire: I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know if it’s even a want or a – like I think if you were to ask someone, “Do you even want to know,” there’s this point where people who have extreme beliefs are so convinced that they’re right that it doesn’t even matter. Like you were saying, I don’t agree with your facts.

Joy: Unfortunately I don’t agree with your fact check. [laughing] I can’t, I just can’t.

Claire: But that’s the thing. You can explain using data all you want, but what it comes down to is you’re talking to someone who has made decisions about what they believe based on –

Joy: Alternative facts, a lot.

Claire: Based on information that’s not fact-based.

Joy: Yeah, right.

Claire: And based on morals and values and feelings. And you know, the thing that I always try to tell myself is perception is reality. People are scared. People don’t know who to trust. And that’s really what we’re seeing is people don’t know who to trust so they go for the theory that backs up their fears because then it makes them feel more rational about being afraid. That’s what I have seen. Okay, well, if these people are saying that yeah the vaccine is untested, nobody even knows what’s in it, then that validates my fear about the vaccine and makes me feel like I’m rational for having this fear as opposed to me having to confront that I might be afraid of the unknown or of whatever. I don’t have to confront that. I can just be validated in what I’m worried about. I think that that’s the case for antiracism and for Black Lives Matter. People are like, “Well I don’t agree with the Black Lives Matter movement.” You don’t get to not agree with racism.

Joy: Yeah, oh God, don’t get me started.

Claire: You don’t get to not agree with that, but you’re pointing at that because it makes you uncomfortable to have to confront your privilege and how you have benefited from white supremacy.

Joy: 100%.

Claire: But rather than do that hard work, they would rather turn around and be like, “I know that racism is a problem, but I don’t agree with the Black Lives Matter movement.” 

Joy: The thing that bugs me about that is just because you’re recognizing. Like, if they just had to recognize Black Lives Matter movement somehow takes away from their experience is just infuriating to me because it’s like no, no, no. I’m not going to explain that.

Claire: I think that’s really where it comes from is from a place of an entire generation of people which started with the boomers and goes down through millennials who were never really taught how to deal with tough emotions and were just kind of taught let it blow over. And just ignore it and it will go away. Or not even ignore it and it will go away, but if you don’t acknowledge it, it’s like how people think that if you don’t acknowledge homosexuality, that it will just go, oh it’s just a phase. I think just as a group, this generation of, I can speak for upper-middle-class white Americans, were really not taught very many coping skills about how to deal with difficult situations, let alone difficult situations that reflect poorly on decisions that we have made with blissful ignorance. Nobody wants to sit down and be like, “I was super freaking ignorant for most of my life about this,” and you would rather think, “Oh, I’m still doing the right thing. These people are the ones who are wrong.” So I think that’s really what it comes down to is you are dealing with cognitive dissonance, and that is not a rational brain experience.

Joy: No, it’s not. And I think a lot about how if you are so steeped, and I’m just using my friend as an example, so steeped in a belief that you won’t hear that you’re defensive for anything you try to come back as, they’re like expecting it. And “they” as anyone who’s really stuck in beliefs is like. “We are armored.” It’s kind of like scientology where they have – I’m not comparing this, but here’s an example. Scientology has a book step by step of what people will do to counteract your belief, to try and come against your belief. They prepared that. So it’s easier to brainwash people when they’re like, “Oh, see he’s right. This is what people do.” It’s like that to a “T.” They have a whole book of, when someone comes at you for this reason, here’s exactly what you say. So I think people who have steeped beliefs also have that kind of playbook in their head where they’re like, people are going to come back. Here they are. Here they go. They’re going to send me articles.

Claire: I knew this was coming.

Joy: Fake news.

Claire: And then it just validates, I knew, I was told that you were going to say this.

Joy: Exactly, validates everything.

Claire: I think also though, I want to point out – a listener sent us an email about two weeks ago. Because you talk a lot about the Mormons and your pastor from Arizona. And she did bring up that even within the Mormon religion, those people are a lot of outliers. The church has made a statement, particularly about the Capitol, condemning the attacks on the Capitol. And that I just want to make sure that we’re not grouping and saying every Mormon doesn’t believe in racism. Because I also always want us to be aware that what we dislike about other people making sweeping generalizations is also easy enough for us to turn around and do.

Joy: For sure. And I 100% still do that. Because I was in that world, so it’s very hard for me to not catch my language when I do that because I have a lot of crap from that. And I own it, and I will admit that. But I also know there’s plenty of people who are open-minded, so yes, thank you for pointing that out. Thank you for bringing my bias to the forefront. I need to rethink that, Claire. I need to rethink that.

Claire: We’re working on it guys.

Joy: But one more thing though. At some point, I think that that in and of itself is something I hope anyone who holds that belief so strong that you are waiting for people to come back. It’s almost like anything people say, “I’m rubber, you’re glue” type of thing, but they won’t even hear it. And that I think is the dangerous thing. No matter what you believe, I think if you’re not open to rethinking and not open to reconsidering, I think that that’s what I’m worried about. Thank you, Adam Grant.

Claire: Okay. So we have a couple more minutes. Let’s do a few more quick questions.

Joy: Great.

Claire: Actually let’s do this one and it will probably take up the rest of our time, so just kidding about the quick question. A lot of people asked for this, “making and keeping friends as an adult.” 

Joy: That is difficult. It’s difficult.

Claire: It’s really difficult. It’s been nearly impossible during the time of COVID.

Joy: Nearly impossible. And for my experience, I’m going to speak from my experience is the way that I have made adult friends is when I am going to a gym or I’m going somewhere that other adults are regularly and I see the same people, the same adults regularly. So I think that’s really hard right now especially. And I think it just kind of depends too on your personality, like are you comfortable or able to do outdoor safe activities with groups. Probably not. Most of the things that we’re allowed to do right now are with your “bubble,” so when things open back up, get involved in something that requires you to be around a group of adults, perhaps like-minded, perhaps not. Doing an activity every week, see the same people, you’re going to make friends. And I’ve made really great friends through this podcast, mostly through the gym that I hang out with when we are able to hand out.

Claire: Yeah, most of the friends that I’ve made purely as an adult were through CrossFit. And also through work, that one can be a little bit trickier if there’s office politics. I think the biggest thing for me with making friends in CrossFit was going to the extra things. Like, oh some people are doing a hike on Saturday, I’m going to go to that. If we’re going to have a barbecue, I’m going to go to that. Going to the extra things. Even if your gym is open right now, the extra things probably aren’t happening. The other thing I would say is that I personally try to be pretty receptive to this, and I feel like people are kind of shy about it so no one’s ever just outright said, “Hey Claire, I follow you on Instagram and I live in Longmont. Do you want to hang out?” But in non-COVID times, I would be really receptive to that. I do have some people who live in Longmont who I know follow the podcast, who follow me on Instagram, who I’ve seen out and they’ll stop me and be like, “Claire, hey.” I’ve never hung out with them, but I would. I think that’s the other thing too is remembering everyone’s in a similar position. No one has really cracked the code on making friends as an adult.

Joy: No one has.

Claire: And then obviously the other kind of straight-forward way is if you have kids to try to make friends with your kids’ friends’ parents. Which sometimes works and sometimes your kid has a really cool friend whose mom is a weirdo. You know, been in that boat. [laughing] Not a lot you can do about that.

Joy: I love it. Okay. But I also think when we are able to do trips again, we have made really good friends through our trips. And people have made good friends on the trips as well. Camp Timeout, if we do that again, or any types of trips when we meet in Los Angeles. Please go to a Joy and Claire trip in the future because we make lifelong friends, and truly lifelong friends. We have our little Facebook group where I message people. I do Marco Polo with a lot of people that I’ve met through the podcast. I think it’s just great. I love having friends. I like to have a lot of friends.

Claire: “I love having friends,” says Joy. Breaking news, friends are good.

Joy: Friends, good.

Claire: Friends, good. I wish that we had a better playbook for you. I’m sure this is nothing that people who struggle with this haven’t heard about or thought about. I think it’s also hard if you’re an introvert or if you have something in your life that has made you believe that you’re a weirdo. If you were an outcast in high school, it might feel more daunting to approach your group. But I do think that when you’re an adult, it’s important to just remind yourself other adults are also looking for new friends.

Joy: Exactly, that’s a good point.

Claire: And we all feel awkward about it. One of my closest friends, literally she was Brandon’s lab partner when he was doing nursing school. And we had met a couple of times. She and Brandon had been in a couple groups together. And one day she just texted me out of the blue and was like, “Hey I got your number from Brandon. Can we go on a friend date?” And I was like, yeah, I would love that. And I also think that it’s important to be persistent. Don’t keep knocking on the door if nobody’s coming to the door. But my friend Heather, who we now talk about a lot and listens to the podcast – hi, Heather.

Joy: Hi, Heather.

Claire: We were pretty good in the summer about going on a walk together every Wednesday. Then it kind of dropped off this fall when Evie stopped sleeping, and she’s been so good about checking in every few weeks like, “Hey, do you want to start doing our walks again?” “Hey, do you want to start doing our walks again?” It never feels like she’s pestering me. It truly feels like, wow, Heather still wants to hang out with me. This is so nice.

Joy: Are you the initiator? Sometimes I forget to initiate and I’m like, oh duh, I should initiate.

Claire: I used to be and then I have gotten less so now that I have kids. Just because like –

Joy: You’re tired and you’re busy.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: But if people invite you to something, you’re like, “Yeah, I can make that happen.” But I have a friend, and she always is the initiator. But one day she was like, “I just want you to know. I always want to hang out with you and I know that you’re not the type of person to initiate.” Thank you for realizing that I’m not the initiator, that you’re working this out in our relationship. It was so funny. So I’m like, yeah, someone’s got to be the initiator. We’re not just both sitting around hoping they call. They want to hang out.

Claire: Right. And I definitely used to be a lot more of an initiator.

Joy: I did too.

Claire: I would like to get back to that. Brandon is really an initiator, but he’s a sporadic initiator.

Joy: Like that morning, he’s like, “Do you want to do a fourteener?”

Claire: Yeah. Not even that morning. It’s more like it just happens in waves. He won’t text anyone, and then all of the sudden one day he’ll text ten people. He’s like, okay, so I’ve lined up five dates over the next two months. And I’m like, what? Yeah, you’ve been on the receiving end of this.

Joy: I have. [laughing] “Hey Joy, how about we do a fourteener next week,” and I’m like, “Woah, where you been?”

Claire: The other day, Brandon was like, “I think Joy and Scott should come up, and they could do a workout in the garage, and I have some beer for Scott.” And I was like, “Joy can’t drink or work out.” He was like, “What happened?” I was like, “What do you mean, what happened? Do you listen to my podcast?” 

Joy: Actually, Scott really wants to come up, so we got to make that happen. 

Claire: [laughing]

Joy: And he can drink beer. 

Claire: Perfect.

Joy: So funny.

Claire: Alright. I really do wish there was a formula, but I do think it is just about remembering that it feels awkward for everyone and there’s no right – what I always tell myself – uh oh, sorry I just hit myself with the microphone.

Joy: We get real excited. Hand motions.

Claire: Hand motions. What I always tell myself about anything where there’s no playbook is if there’s no right way, then there’s no wrong way. I told myself that about deciding when to get pregnant. I’ve told myself that about changing jobs. If there’s no right answer, it means there’s no wrong answer.

Joy: Beautiful.

Claire: And there are better and more worse answers and solutions, but at the end of the day, no one has “the” answer because there isn’t one.

Joy: Can I make a request on friends with Words with Friends because I love Words with Friends.

Claire: You still play Words with Friends.

Joy: I love it so much. I play with my mom, and I need more friends to play with. I love it so much. I need to get better at it. My mom is actually really good at it, and Sandy is really good at it. God damn it, she’s so good. The words that she makes, I’m like, okay. I lose every game with Words with Friends. I don’t think I’ve won once. Maybe once with my mom.

Claire: Okay. To wrap up this episode, I need to share this Instagram caption that I just read.

Joy: Oh my gosh, what is it?

Claire: You know Jennifer Coolidge?

Joy: Yes, of course from –

Claire: Legally Blonde, yeah. The bend and snap lady.

Joy: And also, the MILF from –

Claire: Yeah, the MILF from American Pie. Okay guys, imagine her in all her glory. 

Joy: In her glory.

Claire: Jennifer Coolidge once posed as twins to date two men at once.

Joy: [laughing] Of course she did.

Claire: “Here’s the scene. You’re Jennifer Coolidge and you’re in Hawaii alone. You meet two guys, best friends in fact. You want to date them both, so what do you do? You remember that you’re Jennifer Coolidge and you date them both, posing as a set of identical twins. Her motto, ‘When you’re on vacation alone, you can kind of create anything you want.’ Inspiring. Noble, actually.” 

Joy: Oh my God, that’s amazing. I want some single person to do that ASAP. ASAP. But be COVID cool.

Claire: That’s amazing. Don’t you think at some point they’d be like, I’m not saying that Jennifer Coolidge isn’t Batman, but you’ve never Batman and Jennifer Coolidge together. At some point, wouldn’t  they be like, “I’ve never seen her in the room together.” They had to know.

Joy: I really want to know the outcome of that story.

Claire: Oh my gosh. Well I’m glad I was able to find that just in time to share it because it really just made my day.

Joy: That really just ended the episode well. Alright, so we are almost to Valentine’s Day.

Claire: Thank you for not saying that it’s just around the corner. I appreciate that you held back.

Joy: I really did not say it, and I want everyone to know that I finally found a gift that Scott didn’t influence, that I found on my own, that I think was the perfect Valentine’s Day gift. I’m very proud. It’s a ticket to Mike Birbiglia’s virtual show. And I love Mike Birbiglia. He has an amazing podcast, he’s an amazing comic, and he’s doing a live show. So I’m like, great, we can do a virtual hangout with Mike Birbiglia on Valentine’s Day. Scott and I had tickets to his live show last year that obviously got postponed. Check him out. Support Mike Birbiglia’s work. Support the arts. You know how strongly I feel about supporting the arts, especially as we have to open back up and support that field of work.

Claire: Do you want to give a two-second update about your little thyroid friend?

Joy: My thyroid. Sometimes I catch myself saying “tyroid” because I say it so fast. I’m like, no, it’s a thy-roid. 

Claire: Th-th.

Joy: Things are going great. I’ve been working with my naturopath, Dr. Cook, at Clear Creek Natural Medicine since November. It’s now February, so that’s three months. We are on a six-month treatment plan, and I’m feeling really good. My heart rate’s lowered, my appetite’s back up, I’m gaining back some of the weight that I lost, I feel strong in the gym. I’m not doing crazy workouts because I can’t get my heart rate up, but all-in-all the symptoms that were really bad, everything’s trending upwards. I almost don’t believe it. There’s a part of me that’s like, is this really happening? Am I really getting better? I have to just throw those thoughts away. But yeah, it’s pretty amazing. The stuff that we’ve been doing is pretty awesome. I love that she does this thing called hydrotherapy, which is sounds like a colonic but it’s not. You lay on a table, and – she always says that. “Every time I say hydrotherapy, they think I’m going to give them a colonic, and it’s not that.” And apparently this practice has been around for hundreds of years, and she learned how to do it in med school, and they did a whole rotation with hydrotherapy. I googled it. There’s not really a lot about it online, but basically you lay on a table and she puts hot towels on your chest. So you’re nude from the waist up, and she puts a hot towel on your chest, and you just kind of lay there for ten minutes. So it’s switching hot and cold towels. And while she’s doing that on one of the rotations – because she does that like five times, and you’re lying there for about 45 minutes just switching out these hot and cold towels – she puts these almost like a TENS unit, you know, that you put on your muscles to vibrate them, so if you have sore muscles it kind of deadens the pain receptors or whatever. She does that on your back, but it’s to stimulate the bunch of cells that are connected to all your organs. So she says it’s kind of like doing an oil change on your blood. So I do that every week when I go to see her, and it’s the most relaxing thing. Every time I get up, you have these lucid dreams the whole time, you’re just in this really beautiful trans-state. Yeah, the protocol she has me on, I’m still following the no dairy, the no sugar-fruit combo, and I feel really, really good. So I’m excited. Trust your body. Trust that you don’t have to get your thyroid killed. That’s all I’m saying.

Claire: Right. Trust that there might be other options out there that will work.

Joy: There might be other options. And when my doctor said, “Yes, I can help you,” I’m like great. Your faith is –

Claire: Right, trust that you are worth exploring other options if you want to.

Joy: Exactly. That’s good news.

Claire: Well good. I’m so glad. That hydrotherapy sounds amazing. I would like to sign up for that please.

Joy: Yes, it’s so good. Anyone can do it. You don’t have to have a diagnosis.

Claire: You don’t have to have a six-month treatment plan. I can just show up for a one-time oil change.

Joy: Exactly. Her dream is to open up a whole wing where she can just do hydrotherapy all day for people because right now she just has to do it. She’s like, “I’d love to have a whole wing of people who can do hydrotherapy.” Because you don’t have to be a doctor to do it, but obviously she knows how to do it, so she could have techs doing it all day for people who just want to come in. She’s like, “It’s just so beneficial for the system.”

Claire: It sounds amazing. I want to do that. 

Joy: It is.

Claire: Maybe I’ll make an appointment. Alright guys, well thank you for hanging out there with us on another beautiful Thursday. Welcome to February. We made it through January.

Joy: We sure did.

Claire: It didn’t even feel that long this time, probably because we’ve been in a time warp for the last eleven months.

Joy: Time warp. And I was also just putting my head down and not focusing on anything until the Inauguration. And then I lifted my head up and I was like, we’re okay, we’re okay.

Claire: We’re almost through the other side of January already. 

Joy: Right.

Claire: So thank you, and please shoot us an email. You can email us at thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. You can follow us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can find us on Facebook or This is Joy and Claire on Facebook. You can find us on Clubhouse if you want to.

Joy: Get on Clubhouse.

Claire: Mine is clairehko. What is yours?

Joy: jzparrish. The letter “J,” the letter “Z,” “Parrish.” 

Claire: So if you’re on Clubhouse, feel free to find us, and maybe we will talk to you or do something. We did have a fun little impromptu chat with Laura Ligos the other day.

Joy: Sure did, we just kind of popped in there.

Claire: We talked to Armon for a little while. So that’s been fun.

Joy: That has been fun.

Claire: So you know, drop us a follow I guess? I don’t know. I don’t know the lingo. Not in the club. We hope you guys have a great week, and we will talk to you next week.

Joy: Thank you guys. Bye.

Claire: Bye.

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