135: Hard Conversations with Close Friends

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We talk about the listener question, “How do I talk to my pro-life friend?” and review ways to have meaningful, compassionate conversations in a divisive world. We take time to celebrate NINE years of podcasting!! Claire talks about John Hay’s Goldenseal secret and we answer a few fun listener questions!

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Girls Gone Wod

email: thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com

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This is Joy & Claire Episode 135: Hard Conversations with Close Friends

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

Transcription Completed: September 11, 2022

Audio Length: 54:22 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: Howdy. 

Claire: You missed your line. Line? [whispers] And this is Joy and Claire.

Joy: I still, I can’t say it thought because every time we introduce ourselves, someone once said, “It bugs me that you say, ‘This is Joy and Claire’ because you should be like, ‘This is This is Joy and Claire.’” 

Claire: Okay. I hear you, person, I do. However, to that person, do you know that the reason this podcast is called This is Joy and Claire is because for years and years on Girls Gone WOD we would go, “This is Joy” “and this is Claire.”

Joy: “And this is Joy and Claire.” We wouldn’t really say, “And this is the Girls Gone WOD podcast” because, duh. Anyway, way too much time. Way too much time introducing us.

Claire: And also, I will not get over the fact that it took us like a year to put that together to be like, “That should be the name of our new podcast.”

Joy: It took a long time.

Claire: Lightning strikes. How are you?

Joy: I just took the dogs for a walk. And you know, here in Denver it’s been really warm. Like, 90’s. Actually, closer to 100.

Claire: So humid.

Joy: Other places are hotter, we get it. It’s hot for us. We get it. If you’re on the East Coast or in a place with a ton of humidity or Florida or wherever you have humidity, I hear you. I get it. I hear you. 

Claire: It’s been humid here too.

Joy: It’s been humid here too. Anyway, it’s been hot. I took the dogs for a walk because we barely had an 80-degree day today, so we could actually get the dogs outside without burning their paws or feeling bad for heat exhaustion, which I am a stickler about. I was at the farmer’s market Sunday morning, and it was like 90 degrees by 9am, which is when they open. And I saw all these people with their dogs. I was like, no, it’s too hot. Unless you’re just spending five minutes at the farmer’s market to grab some lettuce.

Claire: Yeah, but that’s now how people go to the farmer’s market. You browse. You linger. You meander.

Joy: I was judging. I was judging. I was judging. But we just walked the dogs. Now I have that hot, sticky feeling.

Claire: I feel that way just standing in the office. When I’m the only one home, I turn the thermostat up to 75, 76. I don’t need to blast the air conditioning if I’m the only one home.

Joy: Sure.

Claire: But right around this time of the day, I regret it. I have lived for a long time in the air conditioning, and I’m never going back. I really feel for everyone who is like, “Having my house at 76 would be a dream.”

Joy: That’s a good question. What do you like to keep the house at? Scott and I just had this discussion.

Claire: Oh, yeah. Great question. I would say my ideal temperature – “Not too hot, not too cold, all you need is a light jacket.” I would say my ideal thermostat temperature in the summer is 72, and in the winter is 69/70.

Joy: Okay, we’re not too far off. So we had this debate. We got AC a few years ago. Living in Denver, I’d say for the past 20 years I’ve been here, I wouldn’t say you didn’t need it. But because I grew up in Arizona, I was like, “This is nothing compared to Arizona.”

Claire: You didn’t used to need it in Denver.

Joy: It’s just that the climate has really taken a dump, and we are ruining the world.

Claire: You know, we’re just scorching the earth from the inside out. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Truly. Growing up here – I live 15 minutes away from where I grew up. In the 90s, we had maybe… fewer than 10 days a year that got over 90 degrees, I would say. This is anecdotal, not scientific. No one had air conditioning, and everyone had attic fans. So at night, you would open all your windows, turn on your attic fan, and your house would cool way down because it would get down into the 50s every single night. 

Joy: Right.

Claire: And every single day, it would be sunny and hot until like 2, and then every day between 2 and 4 o’clock, a rainstorm would come in –

Joy: Yes, and it would cool everything down.

Claire: I feel like we talked about this last week.

Joy: We didn’t. No, we did not. We just talked about how we hadn’t gotten a lot of rain. I really do miss the afternoon thunderstorms. Although, I don’t miss it for JT, but I do miss it for our plants. Yeah, it’s really sad.

Claire: So anyways, it’s been hot, and you’re hot.

Joy: Hot, and we’re sticky. But thermostat. Scott and I got an AC unit a few years ago. When we bought this house, it just has one of those swamp coolers. And so we were dying one summer when it was just getting hotter and hotter. We now keep it – I like it at 73. I have this rule – and because we both work from home, we have it running throughout the day. But I have this rule where you shouldn’t need a blanket when you run your AC. You’re kind of wasting energy. So the other night, we were laying on the couch, and Scott has this huge blanket on him. I was like, we do not need this house at 72. So we’re sitting at 73. It’s a little, I wouldn’t say warm, but this time of the day – we’re recording around 4 o’clock –

Claire: It gets a little stuffy.

Joy: Yeah, it gets a little stuffy this time of day. But anyway, when I was in Arizona, I remember staying at my friend’s house and I was like, oh, what do they keep it at? Because it’s Arizona and their bills would be thousands and thousands of dollars, they keep it at 78 during the day, but you keep all your windows closed. And Scott made fun of me too. “Why do you keep all the windows closed all the time?” Because it keeps – yeah. And then at night, they do 74. So I’m like, alright. And then they have a bunch of fans. Which we have like five fans going in our bedroom at night. I need it arctic blasting.

Claire: I can’t do that much wind. It’s like a sensory overload for me. I cannot have the air moving that much. We have a ceiling fan, and I’ll wait until Brandon goes to sleep and I’ll get up and turn it off.

Joy: Really? Poor thing, he’s probably waking up and sweating on his pillow.

Claire: Well, he can deal with it because I cannot fall asleep with that much air.

Joy: I would be so mad.

Claire: All of our bedrooms in this house have ceiling fans. So the kids’ fans are on. Let me tell this little story. We bought this rug from Craig’s List. This gigantic, really nice Persian rug for $300. I was like, this is a steal. And on the thing, it said they had it cleaned. There is no possible way that they had just had this thing cleaned. It is so dirty, and it smells so bad.

Joy: No.

Claire: It smells like that load of laundry that you forgot about in the washer for a little bit too long before you put it in the dryer, but you thought you were going to risk it and dry it anyway.

Joy: Yeah, just a little bit musty. Dingy, musty.

Claire: It’s to the point where we had to put it outside. We couldn’t even have it in the room.

Joy: So they lied.

Claire: They definitely lied.

Joy: Liars.

Claire: But for the first evening that we had it unfurled, I thought maybe it just needs to air out. So I took a little tabletop fan, just a little oscillating one, and put it on the floor next to it, thinking let’s just get some air in here. So Miles turned it around so that it would blow on us during dinner, and I had to turn it off. This is distracting. I can’t have this fan around me.

Joy: Oh, that’s so interesting. Sometimes I get weird about the fan above us at dinnertime because there is something about the cold air blowing on me while I’m eating dinner. Gosh, we are just turning into very weird particular humans. Remember in our 20s when nothing bothered us and I could sleep on a floor before running a marathon? Now I need certain fans and certain noises and sound machines. So bad. This is what happens. This is how people end up in their 70s and 80s like my dad –

Claire: Who is like, “Turn down that music.”

Joy: This is exactly how I need things. He uses a special fork to eat certain meals. Yeah. This is how it happens.

Claire: You know what you like.

Joy: You really do. So we’re hot. Everyone is hot, no matter where you are. Maybe not in Australia.

Claire: Maybe if you’re in the Southern Hemisphere, congratulations. Talk to you in six months. Okay. So we had a listener reach out on DM and they had an interesting question. This is a topic that we covered a little bit, ongoing over the last few years, as it relates to vaccines and anti-vaccine, as it relates to Covid deniers, as it relates to racism, White supremacy, as it relates to the election. The topic is how to deal with people who are close to you in your life who fundamentally disagree with you on issues that you feel to be extremely important. In particular, this person, they wrote us and said, “Hey. My very best friend of ten years, I just realized that she is pro-life, and I am pro-choice. It has never come up before. And I was expressing that I was really upset about the Roe v. Wade rolling and Roe v. Wade being struck down. And she basically said, ‘Well, I don’t really want to talk to you about this because I am really glad it was struck down.’” She’s like, I just don’t really know what to do. This is so tricky. I think we collectively as a society have been put in this position more and more in the last few years as more and more polarizing issues have gotten – I feel like they all came up at once. And I think any time you have something like this – we talked about it two weeks ago now, around the fact that abortion is one of those issues that is particularly hard because at its core is a fundamental belief that you either have or don’t have based on a lot of factors. Maybe based on your religion, religious upbringing, but also based on your lived experiences, based on a lot of very personal factors, that really asks the question, when do you believe life begins? That is not an opinion that is easily changed. I think that’s what makes abortion in particular that much trickier because you can’t point to someone’s political policies and show empirically that they are damaging. Or you can’t point to Covid data and show empirically – there is no data around “when life begins.” That’s one of the main cruxes of the issues. 

Joy: Right. 

Claire: So what do you think? What would you do if you were in this person’s position?

Joy: Well, Scott and I have been talking a lot about this too. Let me just preface this whole conversation again by everyone’s got an opinion. Everyone has belief systems. This is Claire and I talking through stuff in real time. We are trying to be as mindful and compassionate as possible. So just keep that in mind as we have these conversations. But Scott and I had this conversation when we found out that Roe was overturned. Scott had a really hard time. We went and got a meal and a drink – a big, heavy drink. Which again, haven’t really been drinking, and it was a very heavy pour, but we were both like, “I need a drink.” All I could think was I think the guy at the bar gave me this huge glass of wine because I am sure he was like, “All women just need to get obliterated tonight.” I mean, not really. But that was kind of my thinking because I was like, this is a lot of wine. In any event, please withhold judgements. Even though I judge people who walk their dogs in the heat. But this is just us talking it out, and I’m sharing more of a private moment with you guys. So just please keep that in mind and be kind.

Claire: As a side note, one time somebody was like, “Joy doesn’t want people to judge her. She only wants to judge other people.” I was like, everyone literally feels that way. Literally everyone thinks that. So I don’t know what to tell you. Negative feedback received and acknowledged. Yes, that’s correct.

Joy: Yeah, so funny. People are funny.

Claire: No more disclaimers. Go ahead.

Joy: Yes, exactly. And someone else said one time, “Stop apologizing for your opinions.” I’m like, I know, I probably do that too. It’s just a way for me to protect myself. Okay, continue. So we were talking in the car, and he’s like, “I just have a hard time with women who are pro-life.” He’s like, “I don’t understand it.” So we were talking this through. He’s like, “How can you be a woman who is pro-life?” So we were trying to break it down. Is it the belief system? Is it you’re raised a certain way and you just can’t see past it? Is it a narrow view about life? Again, we’re coming at it from a lens of we are both very pro-choice and believe that a woman has a right to her own body. The bottom line is no one else can tell you what to do with your body. Period. The end. And so he’s like, “I just don’t understand that.” So what we come to when we have these discussions is perhaps you bump up against someone who is pro-life, and you try to understand. If you just try to understand and come from curiosity, that is a better outcome if you come from curiosity. No matter what the discussion. I think you can have healthy debates about it. What we whittled it down to, honestly, and this is Scott’s view of the world, which I really appreciate, and not everyone is going to agree. But I think the way he thinks is very critical. He is a critical thinker. He is Jesuit educated. I think when he looks at things, he is always picking apart how to think about something critically. He and I talked about this. I agree with him. What it comes down to for me is we aren’t thinking through things critically. And if you have a very hard and fast ingrained belief – and this could go back to Zach Anderson’s episode. You just don’t have a broader view of the world. Because I think if we all exposed ourselves to more – to more people, to more opinions, to more views – then we would have a better understanding. Not for the purpose – do not mistake this – not for the purpose of trying to change our mind. But trying to understand more of the argument. That’s where we landed for now.

Claire: I think that is really the key. It goes back to our pal JK and Help Me Understand. I was thinking about this before we started recording and how I would answer it. I think this also comes back though to something that, when it comes to approaching a conversation, really, in order to understand someone’s point of view and really get more information about where they are coming from, doing that in a truly neutral way takes a lot of work and is very hard. At the end of the day, for something that is so personal, like this – and even if it is not personal to you, this is not something that is a personal experience that you’ve had, but it still feels to a lot of women like a personal attack. It’s really hard to go into a conversation like that completely open to the fact that the other person may never change their mind. That’s a really vulnerable position to be in. I think that we in some ways often go into those conversations thinking, I am going to hear your side of the story so that I can better counter your points. Or I am going to explain myself because I think if you really understood me, you would think that I was right. I think it’s natural to feel that way, and I also think that ultimately it really comes down to, is this a make-or-break issue for you? I’m not sure that I could have a super close friend – I don’t know how I would feel if my very best friend of a decade disagreed with me on something like this. I don’t know for sure that it would be make or break, but it would really bring up a lot more questions. I think that is the other thing that you and Scott were talking about. It’s really about who gets to make decisions about your body. That’s the other thing for me. For people who are really stringently pro-life, the question I then think of – what else does that mean, then, about the rest of your beliefs? And what else, then, does that imply about what you believe to be the scope of my bodily autonomy or the government’s ability to regulate me. Especially the rights of other groups. Then how do you feel about gay marriage? Even just same-sex relationships. And women’s rights as a whole. It does feel like a very slippery slope. And it is one of those things where oddly I do feel like a lot of people are like, no, I feel fine with those other issues. It really is just abortion that is the hot topic, and it does go back to that protection of life question. I think that to me would be the other question that would always be in the back of my mind. Okay, well then, do you also have other conservative beliefs that I am not aware of that might give me a different opinion of your world view?

Joy: Speaking of critical thinking, so if a close friend has this belief system and you find out that they have other belief systems that are very, very different from yours, do you not stay friends with that person? Or do you try to understand? I’m going to link to this in our show notes again – if you just click on the episode – an article that I kind of had a hard time even sharing, but I think it’s good to think about things – I had a hard time sharing because it’s written by Adam Grant who is a straight, cis white guy. But I do appreciate his opinion about things, and he is very smart, very researched, and I think he has things to say about critical thinking in general. But he wrote an article, more like a blog post, about how to argue about abortion. It really does whittle down to what we were just talking about. It’s channeling these emotions, not into outrage against each other, but reexamining your own beliefs. We’ve kind of been saying this this whole time, even when Trump was in office, of examining your beliefs, really trying to understand because everyone just gets really upset and lashes out at each other. But in the spirit of critical thinking, what if someone that maybe is a close friend of yours who is like, “Hey, I’m really struggling with this. I need to talk to you about it. These are my beliefs. I know that they are very different. How do we move forward with the relationship?” Does every friend have to have the same values and beliefs as you?

Claire: No. I think that’s what I mean by you have to decide personally how big of a deal this is to you. I think you could have a really strong relationship built on knowing that you respectfully disagree on topics. I definitely have friends who don’t agree with me on a lot of things. I think I am very far left in a lot of ways that is even more to the extreme than a lot of people. I’m from Boulder – not to just say, “I’m from Boulder, whatever” and brush it under the rug. But the amount of liberal that I grew up with –

Joy: It’s true. You’re exposed to a very liberal world.

Claire: Very liberal.

Joy: John Hay and his tinctures. Hold on, don’t let me forget about this. I saw something on your personal stories that I’ve been meaning to ask, and I don’t want to forget. Some type of thing that he made for you, some concoction.

Claire: Oh yeah, the goldenseal. 

Joy: Will you talk about that later?

Claire: Yeah. So I think I do take for granted that I had that upbringing that was very liberal and very – yeah. I mean, very personal rights. Personal rights, but I would call it community rights. Really raised in a town that was very much for public services, but also very much for autonomy in that way as well. I think the underlying thing about me is that it would be really hard to get to the point where you’ve been friends with me for ten years and you don’t know what these are my thoughts. I talk about it on this internationally-distributed podcast that we have. I post about it on Instagram all the time. You would really have to be hell-bent on ignoring my opinion if you didn’t know what they were. I think a good example of this would be vaccines. I am very pro-vaccine. I am very pro-medical research. I don’t think that I am capable of doing the level of research that goes into approving vaccines and approving vaccine schedules. I know that that, especially in Boulder, is not a popular way to view vaccines. A lot of people pick and choose what they want to do, if they do it at all, or they do it on a delayed schedule. That is not my approach. I have not necessarily gotten into it with friends but have definitely been the recipient of criticism about being outspoken about vaccines on my personal Instagram. In particular, one person, her child had an autoimmune reaction to a vaccine when she was really young and now she has some complicated food allergies, and they think they are related. So I’m not saying that that sort of thing can’t happen. But in that scenario, I was not super close to that person, so it didn’t affect me that much. But in that scenario, it usually does create an opportunity for me to – like, I will say that after engaging in a lot of those conversations, my beliefs about vaccines are way less black and white. I think it can go either way. While on the one hand going into a conversation about something like abortion with your friend and saying, “Hey, I want you to understand where I’m coming from” – on the one hand, it’s hard to do that from a neutral standpoint, and you do have to go into it with no agenda. But on the other hand, you might hear something that surprises you and you might say something that surprises them. It might be an opportunity for that other person to start thinking, okay, well if this friend that I love and respect really disagrees with me in this belief, maybe I’m going to reexamine this belief. That can’t really be your goal. I know it’s happened to me from the other side of the table.

Joy: Yeah. And I have to remind myself all the time when I’m having these discussions is, I will find myself getting defensive or feeling like people are going to attack. I always have to remind myself, we all come from somewhere. We all come from somewhere with the beliefs that we’ve been raised with, been exposed to. I have to remind myself, I really want to try to understand, again. JK, love it. I love JK’s podcast.

Claire: JK is a person. We are not saying “just kidding.” If you’re not familiar with our friend.

Joy: Yeah, JK McLeod’s Help Me Understand podcast is the best concept of really digging into questions that you really want to know more about. I take that stance all the time. If find myself being like, help me understand. Where is this person coming from? It may be fear. It may be that’s just how you were raised, and that’s the doctrine. There’s just so many ways that you can develop a belief system, but I think where it gets scary for all of us – myself included, and I have to check myself. Why do I believe this? Digging a little bit deeper. But going back to Zach’s episode where sometimes asking those questions will make you doubt the belief system that you’ve held for so long, and that’s very scary. If you have upheld a belief system that has been the foundation of who you are, that’s terrifying. So no secret, I grew up in a Mormon town. I have all my friends there who we didn’t really talk politics when all that stuff was going on, but one of the most very vocal on Facebook – and I really don’t think she listens to this podcast, but I love you. Love you so much. I’ve known her since junior high. But very vocal in that very aggressive Trump stance – 

Claire: Like confrontational?

Joy: Very confrontational. That’s not who she is as a person, but that’s how she showed up on social media. I remember, I had to mute her. I had to just mute her. I had to separate her from the belief system. Because I love her so much as a person, but I can’t get on board with this belief system. At one point, something that I had posted, she kind of jumped into a private message, like a DM, and was just really going after it. I just felt myself react with this anxious, angry, and like this is not going to get you anywhere. We’re not going to convince each other otherwise. So I just had to be like, I respect that you have these very passionate beliefs, and I think completely different and here’s why. I tried to provide some resources about where I’m coming from. No amount of resources/research articles/sources you site are going to convince a person. But I always feel like, this is where I come from. If you want to know more about where I come from. I’m not trying to change your mind. I think it’s important that you read a little bit more before jumping to conclusions. Every time I say that, I think about the jump to conclusions map from Office Space. I can’t help it. [laughing] So anyway, it’s going to come up in our lives. I think we’re all going to handle it differently. Some people are going to be like, no, hard line. I talked to a lot of people in therapy who have a really hard time when some family members are anti-vaccine and they are pro-vaccine. It creates this crater in between them. They’re like, we don’t know how to handle it. We can’t invite them over. They make fun of us. All of these things are creating big divides. I really think that we can do better about listening, critical thinking. Not to simplify it, but you guys get what I’m saying.

Claire: Yeah. I hope for the person who asked this question, when I wrote back to her, I was like, yeah, we’ll definitely talk about this. I don’t think we’re going to come up with an answer, but maybe this helps you. My guess is that you have a gut instinct about which way you do want to take this or which way you think it is going to go. Maybe this has helped you either feel affirmed or get some more questions about what to ask. It is hard when it’s somebody who is so close. It’s one thing when it’s your childhood friend on Facebook, versus somebody who would be a real absence in your life if you decide to cut ties with them. I feel like this is a huge take away for me. I think abortion is a much bigger and more contentious issue than the whole Greg Glassman thing in 2020, but the Greg Glassman thing in 2020 did teach me that jumping into cutting people off or cancelling people or jumping to disaffiliate – having knee-jerk reactions is rarely the answer. I think it’s one thing if something is the last straw and you need to give an ultimatum, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the situation that you’re in right now.

Joy: Yeah, that’s a good point. I just wanted to add a little bit more around when people have the cancel culture, which I don’t always agree with, but let’s take Greg Glassman’s case. The CrossFit man is waiting outside. But I think there was a buildup of frustration that was ready, like the ultimatum –

Claire: For sure. That’s what I kind of meant. When something is the last straw, that’s when – yeah.

Joy: Yeah. That’s where – and I’ve seen this happen before. I feel like cancel culture is more about people waiting on social media or waiting in the wings for someone to be taken down because they see and feel the disingenuous behind the person. Kind of like Rachel Hollis. I was waiting. I was like, oh my gosh, this girl. I saw through her from day one. I was like, I’m waiting for this take down. When it happened, I was like, good, good. The true colors eventually came out, and I saw it coming. I was personally very excited about it. Because I hate people who have a platform like this – so I saw that with Greg Glassman. There was a buildup. There was a last straw.

Claire: And I guess I didn’t mean to bring up. It was more that in that time frame when I watched that happen, it gave me a lot more – it was the first time I had ever really been that close to a community that was having a wild knee-jerk reaction to something. I’m not saying that it was the wrong call for everyone. It definitely just – 

Joy: What do you mean the wrong call? Sorry, I’m getting twirled up in what you’re saying. I’m getting you confused.

Claire: I’m saying that I don’t think that cancelling Greg Glassman was the wrong call for everyone. I am saying that having that experience and being close to the CrossFit community during that time and watching a lot of gym owners up close go through this “should I or shouldn’t I disaffiliate?” It’s not always the right call to just have that knee-jerk cancel reaction. It doesn’t sound like that’s what this person was saying. It doesn’t sound like they’re asking, “Should I cut ties with them or not?” But I think when it comes to these personal decisions and these personal relationships, the answer is rarely to give an ultimatum and cut ties right off the bat.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: And again, that’s personal.

Joy: Yeah, yeah. I think that is a very interesting – I don’t think cancel culture is all or nothing either. I think there’s so much behind it. I’m going to just barely mention this, but if you want to talk about cancel culture, the Amber Heard and Charlie – no. Charlie Sheen. 

Claire: Your brain started to say Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. What you means was Johnny Depp. 

Joy: [laughing] Amber Heard. Johnny Depp. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I don’t mean to laugh. This is not a funny thing. But if there was some animosity and hate towards Johnny Depp, then he would be cancelled. But they went for Amber Heard. That just drove me nuts. I think there’s just more of the collective belief and feeling behind someone. Everyone wants the Kardashians to fail, something happens so that they come crashing down. There’s something there, It’s a very interesting behavioral thing to watch. Okay. Let’s move on.

Claire: Let’s take a breather.

Joy: Let’s take a breather with our favorite people Ned.

Claire: [singing]

Joy: I was going to start clapping.

Claire: But doesn’t come across the same.

Joy: Doesn’t come across the same.

Claire: Alright, you guys. I just finished, probably my fifth bottle of the Ned Daily Blend that I’ve ever had. It does last for a while. I take it every single night. A bottle will get me probably close to two months, a full dropper full every night. It’s a good value. If you think about the other products that you buy, the other supplements that you buy, the other sleep products that you buy. I put it in the realm of skincare products. If I am going to be buying an item like that, really, I view it as a wellness item, two months is a good value to get out of that in my opinion. So check out Ned. They are the makers of our favorite CBD products. I really think of it as a wellness product. It really does feel luxurious when I take it at night. I really have come to love my little bedtime routine where I take my Mello, which is their magnesium and botanicals blend. It’s a drink powder. It tastes delicious. I recommend the Meyer lemon. I take that about an hour before I go to bed. Then I take my CBD right after I brush my teeth. Which if you are worried about the skunky flavor, you can take it right before. But I take it right after because I’m weird and I love the combination of the flavors.

Joy: I think that’s so funny.

Claire: And then I go to bed, and I fall asleep right away, and I stay asleep all night. Based on what we were just talking about, based on the last two years, stress is a big presence in our lives all the time. Whether small things or big things and everything in between. I think this is an amazing tool in the toolbox. It is one of my most used, most concystent tools that I use. I think it is so important to prioritize your sleep, and that’s the other thing I really look to this for is helping me get to sleep and stay asleep so that I can be in the best place mentally as I can to take on all that stress and take on all the fresh horrors. 

Joy: Fresh horrors of the day. And I think horrors – horrors.

Claire: No fresh whores, to be clear.

Joy: I think that moving the needle just a little bit can make a really big impact. I love the Sleep Blend. Great, great sleep. Please support our podcast by supporting our great sponsors, Ned. You can go to helloned.com/JOY to get 15% off your order. That’s helloned.com/JOY to get 15% off your order. Thank you, Ned, for sponsoring our podcast.

Claire: Alright. Well you may or may not be aware, but this week is the 9th anniversary of our podcast – not of this podcast, but of us being podcasters.

Joy: Yeah. In the universe, in the podcast-verse. Which only like ten podcasts existed, and we actually made the charts.

Claire: We did make the charts. We made a splash because it was a small pond. I would be curious to know. I really think there is a high probability that we are the longest-running female-hosted Indie podcast in the world. 

Joy: Well, we got a message from someone. Did you see that DM? I can’t remember where it is. But it was a DM from someone that was like, you’ve got a ways to go from so-and-so, so apparently there’s another gal. 

Claire: Is that an Indie podcast?

Joy: No. She’s got a tech – maybe it’s in the comments… it sounds like it’s a tech podcast.

Claire: So I’m not saying that there aren’t syndicated podcasts that have been out there longer.

Joy: We are the best, and we are the longest.

Claire: I’m just saying that those podcasts have money behind them, and that is those people’s jobs. So it says, “You have a few years to go to catch up to Podfeet, but I appreciate your endurance.” So Podfeet is Allison Sheridan, “tech podcaster and blogger with an ever-so-slight Apple bias. Retired engineer, avid exerciser, dog and cat owner, and wife of S.P. Sheridan” Podfeet, we’ll have to check that out. Apparently, she is also an Indie podcaster. Yeah. So it looks like she is one of the OGs and we would love to meet her.

Claire: As a part of celebrating our nine years of podcasting – I always like to throw this tidbit out there because I think it’s fun that we’ve only missed two episodes. We missed one episode the week that I got married. And then we chose not to release an episode the week after George Floyd was killed. We just didn’t feel like we could add to that conversation. And we’ve never missed an episode other than that. We posted on Instagram and asked people to share their favorite moments. I always love when we do this. There’s always a lot of repeats. 

Joy: But they’re the best moments.

Claire: People loved the “pop a lab,” which if you are not familiar, we were talking about whether we exercise with or without underwear. I was like, I always wear underwear when I exercise because I don’t want to pop a lab.”

Joy: Because some of those shorts are real short.

Claire: Those shorts are so short.

Joy: Yeah, you really could pop a lab.

Claire: You really could pop a lab. 

Joy: [laughing]

Claire: Bad new all around. Also in our very first episode when I said that I didn’t know who he was when talking about Pat Benatar. I’m like, “I don’t know who he is. Who is he? Is that a band?” The most recent one with the bread kneading really came up a lot. That was a true belly laugh moment.

Joy: That was so funny.

Claire: When you posted that Instagram of it later on that week, I literally cried laughing watching it. I was there for the original. It happened to me. But I still cried laughing.

Joy: But the visual was even better. If you hear it on the show, it was funny. But the fact that all of the sudden I’m like, “What are you doing?” What is she doing down there? And then up pops this huge bowl of dough. It was so funny. 

Claire: “It looks like you’re kneading bread.” “Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m doing.”

Joy: Someone said, “Classic comment. I like my porn porny.” I don’t remember that. 

Claire: I feel like that was recent. 

Joy: Really?

Claire: You probably blocked it out because –

Joy: Because I can’t take it.

Claire: Because you’re afraid of people knowing that you have sex.

Joy: [laughing] I was mortified about that PMD thing by the way.

Claire: Please tell that story.

Joy: So I’ve been wanting one of those PMD, microdermabrasion tools. If you don’t know what it is, just Google it. They’ve sold them at Nordstrom and Sephora. Basically if you go get a facial and they do that vacuum thing on your face and it feels really good and takes off all the dead skin, whatever. So I’ve wanted one forever, but they’re kind of expensive. I don’t know if I want to spend money on that right now. I don’t spend a lot of money on things, guys. So I was like, okay, Nordstrom sale, it’s $100 off, I think I want to get it. Early birthday present. I get it, and I posted some things that I got in the Nordstrom sale yesterday. I posted a picture of the PMD microdermabrasion tool, and it does look like a vibrator. But I didn’t even really think about that because it clearly says on the box. It’s not like I’m just holding it in my hand. It was the box cover.

Claire: Also it would never run through Joy’s mind that anyone would think that she was posting a photo of a virbrator.

Joy: No.

Claire: Not even that you were like, “Oh, no one will think this.”

Joy: No, it didn’t even cross my mind. I was like, oh my gosh, everyone knows these PMD tools. Because everyone knows them. That’s what I’m thinking. Everyone knows what that is. Next thing I know, people are like, “Oh my gosh, I thought this was a vibrator” and “Go, Joy!” And tons of comments are rolling in about how it is a vibrator. I’m like, oh my God. Guys. The Catholic girl in me was mortified. Mortified. So I was all curious to see if Nordstrom actually sold vibrators, which they do, fun fact.

Claire: Oh my gosh. And then somebody sent us a DM. They were like, “Turns out, Nordstrom actually sells butt plugs.” She was like, “I guess. I don’t know. If I wanted a luxury butt plug, might as well get it from Nordstrom, but it’s jarring to see it on a Facebook ad as you’re scrolling through. Handbags, face cream, butt plugs.”

Joy: [laughing] Now everyone is going to get those.

Claire: Sorry. Because you’re listening to this podcast, you’re now going to get targeted ads for sex toys. Sorry, not sorry. We could all use a little stress relief, let’s just put it that way.

Joy: Let’s just… that’s a fact. But that was really funny. Okay. Pat Benatar, Dave Grohl or Andre Agassi. You didn’t know who Dave Grohl was? Oh, you didn’t know who Dave Grohl was!

Claire: I still don’t know who that is.

Joy: Oh my God, I can’t.

Claire: When I read that comment, I was like, well that one didn’t stick.

Joy: Or Andre Augusy. 

Claire: Who are they?

Joy: You really don’t know?

Claire: I really don’t know, Joy. This is like the time in our text messages when you referred to Madge. I was like, who’s Madge? 

Joy: You guys, Claire didn’t know who Madge was. Madonna.

Claire: Yeah, for all you 35 and unders out there, it’s Madonna. Apparently, it’s her 1980’s nickname. 

Joy: I was like, “Madge.” Claire was like, “Who’s Madge?” God. Okay, Dave Grohl is the lead singer of the Foo Fighters, originally the drummer in Nirvana, and he’s amazing.  

Claire: Thank you for telling me that.

Joy: But he’s just an amazing human. He’s an amazing human. Anyways. And they just lost a drummer. 

Claire: I did hear about that.

Joy: That’s just tragic. Andre Agassi is a tennis player.

Claire: Oh. Yeah, I’m not going to know that one.

Joy: I’m not into tennis, but –

Claire: But you watch sports. You and Scott watch –

Joy: We don’t watch tennis, but the only reason I really got into him was because he is like the Dennis Rodman of tennis. 

Claire: Oh, okay.

Joy: Do you know who Dennis Rodman is?

Claire: I know who Dennis Rodman is, yes.

Joy: Okay, so he is an 8-time major champion, Olympic gold medalist, runner up in all these majors, and he wrote one of the most amazing memoirs. I don’t know why I just chose to read this memoir, but it was up there. Top two memoirs of all time so far. Andre Agassi’s Open. And Anthony Kiedis’ book is so good. Their memoirs are just amazing. And so is Nirvana’s. Anyway.

Claire: Sorry to everyone out there that I don’t know any pop references ever, but at least it sounds like it’s memorable.

Joy: It is. It’s good.

Claire: So we’re glad we’ve been here for nine years. We’re going to keep doing it. Oh, by the way, update about our threat to do Bake Off episodes. The Mary Berry years are no longer available on Netflix. 

Joy: That’s just so sad.

Claire: Tragic. Truly tragic. So if anyone out there can tell us how to pirate the older Bake Off episodes, I am up for some international piracy of baking, please. Or if you want to send us a VHS recording of it, that would be great.

Joy: You have a VHS player?

Claire: Because I don’t care to recap the more recent episodes. I want to do a Mary Berry episode. I want to do the Nadya. Alright, so we have a few questions left over from – oh wait. First, I’ve got to tell you about goldenseal. 

Joy: Yes, please.

Claire: Did we already talk about this?

Joy: No. You put it on your stories, and I was like, what is he making?

Claire: Okay, guys. So in case you don’t know, I was raised by a hippie by the name of John Hay, who was the original yuppie and invented Celestial Seasonings. Literally. Throughout my life, as a child, sometimes I was taken to the doctor for like vaccines, but I was not taken to the doctor for ailments. I was taken to the chiropractor. I have been taking supplements and tinctures since I was a little kid. My dad is a hilarious Boulder conundrum. He literally is from Long Island. He was driving out to California where his sisters lived in the 60’s. He had this Italian sports car. He was driving out through Boulder. He stopped in Boulder for some reason. Drove to Boulder Canyon. His car broke down. They didn’t have a part available. It was going to take them a month to get here. It was an exotic foreign car, and then he just never left. So that’s the story about how John Hay got to Boulder. All that to say, he has a very East Coast upbringing. Like, he went to Choate. Then became the original yuppie. Imagine the scene of me sitting on my dad’s back porch while he is wearing a Brooks Brothers polo and golf shorts, opening up a capsule of powdered goldenseal root, and putting it on a giant Band-Aid that he’s just spread vitamin E all over. So my dad, my whole life, he will take those little capsules of Vitamin E, pop it open with his mouth, and squeeze it onto your wounds. That’s basically his version of Neosporin. I never used Neosporin as a child. 

Joy: Oh my gosh, that’s amazing.

Claire: So I had this gross cyst, which I get these from time to time in my armpits. I’ve had them checked out. They’re just a little cyst. Normally what happens is that they feel like maybe a frozen pea. And they’ll just hang out there for like a year. And then one day, I’ll wake up and it will be really inflamed, and it will have basically burst. Sorry for the gross words. It will hurt for like a day, and it will go away. This time, this happened to me about two weeks after I finished testing positive for Covid. I have been hearing from folks once I started talking about this, a lot of my friends were like, “Oh yeah, about two weeks after I had Covid, I had this rash” or “I broke out into hives.” There is sort of a naturopathic explanation that that is about the time that the actual virus die off really occurs. So that is one of the theories. I’m kind of wondering if that is what was happening. Anyway, I had this gross cyst. It wasn’t going away. I didn’t want to have to spend $500 to go to Urgent Care to have it drained. So I was at my dad’s house, and he was like, “Oh, we’ll just put a goldenseal compress on it.” So he went and got his giant Band-Aid, popped open his capsule of Vitamin E, opened up the goldenseal – because he just has a giant basket full of random herbs all of the time sitting on the table.

Joy: You need to take a picture of that next time. I think you have sent a picture of it.

Claire: For most people, it’s the type of basket that you would use for fruits and vegetables. And for my dad, it’s just full of tinctures and supplement bottles.

Joy: I’m kind of becoming your dad though, and I appreciate it.

Claire: It’s a good look. The hardest part about it was that, because your armpit is sort of a damp area, the Band-Aid didn’t stick. But then, that’s where being married to a surgical nurse comes in pretty handy. Brandon always brings home random stuff.

Joy: Like what?

Claire: Like he’ll bring home – not Tegaderm, though we do have Tegaderm. You know that ace bandagey stuff that sticks to your arm after you draw blood?

Joy: Yes.

Claire: We have that. Because a lot of times what will happen is they will open up packets of things and they won’t use all of it, and it’s completely sterile. It’s not like a “take home free” box, but it’s sort of like, hey, if you guys… I don’t really understand the situation. But it’s apparently fine for him to take this stuff home. It’s already been taken out of the inventory for whatever reason. It’s already been opened, but it never was used. Whatever. So he bring some random little supplies like that. So I was able to get it to stick to my armpit. So it worked. It was between that, and I was taking this tincture called –

Joy: Like it went away?

Claire: Yeah, it went away. After three or four days, it went away.

Joy: That’s crazy. It’s a Band-Aid of goldenseal –

Claire: Goldenseal root powder and Vitamin E. And goldenseal is a known anti-bacterial herb. 

Joy: Right.

Claire: There are a ton of herbs and botanicals out there that are anti-fungal and/or anti-bacterial. But my dad was like, it will draw it out. I don’t know if the claims of that are necessarily accurate, but I was like, hey, it can’t hurt for me to keep this clean.

Joy: Yeah, we aren’t giving medical advice here. We’re just talking about John Hay who really knows his stuff.

Claire: I can’t really keep it clean because it’s in my armpit so it’s not really staying clean. And the tincture is called Detoxifier by Newton Homeopathics. So I was taking that. Anyway. There you go.

Joy: So you were ingesting that?

Claire: I was ingesting the tincture, and then I had the goldenseal on my armpit Band-Aid.

Joy: Interesting. Gotta love John Hay. I’ve been really into the WishGarden ladies. Does he know them?

Claire: Oh, I’m sure he does.

Joy: We should go hang out with John Hay in the WishGarden. I’m loving their tinctures. Okay, so questions from people. Do we have time for one or two?

Claire: Yeah, we have a couple. So a couple weeks ago, we asked for some funny questions. You guys really delivered. We have a lot left that we never asked, so here we go. Are you pro or anti parade? This feels like a loaded question actually after the 4th of July.

Joy: Cut that, cut that, cut that. I’m stealing from, if you’ve ever listened to It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, their podcast, they’re so funny. But if they catch themselves saying something that they’re like, “Whoops,” they’re like, “Cut that, cut that, cut that.” And they never cut it. Cut that, cut that, cut that.

Claire: Alright. Let’s reframe. Coolest dinosaur?

Joy: Coolest dinosaur, hmm… I love Jurassic Park. What is the one that attacks where they come up and they like –

Claire: Velociraptors. 

Joy: Is that the one where they distract you with their wings, and the other one attacks from the side?

Claire: I don’t think that that really happened, but that is the velociraptor in the move. 

Joy: You don’t think the Hollywood version is real?

Claire: I’m glad that that is what you’ve taken away from that. Based on the extensive dinosaur research that I have done with Miles, I’m not sure. Velociraptors were likely more like the size of a wild turkey.

Joy: Okay, so not that big. Did they attack like the wolf pack thing?

Claire: Yeah. Because they were small and pretty dumb, they think they probably hunted in herds. 

Joy: That’s so interesting.

Claire: I have to go with a stegosaurus or the ankylosaurus because the ankylosaurus is the tootiest dinosaur. Tell me how they know that. I don’t know. But it was apparently the gassiest one. 

Joy: The tootiest? I thought you were talking like an actual word, like studious. No, you’re talking about farts. 

Claire: Yep. Fartiest dinosaur. Just put that fact in your pocket the next time you need to impress a six-year-old boy that the ankylosaurus was the gassiest dinosaur. I don’t know how they know that.

Joy: How would they find that out? That’s good, that’s good.

Claire: Is there anything you can’t or shouldn’t put on a salad?

Joy: Can’t or shouldn’t? Gosh, I don’t like anchovies. I know you like anchovies. I wouldn’t put that on a salad. A lot of people love them. 

Claire: I like anchovies on a good Caesar salad. I’ll take that.

Joy: But something that’s just obnoxious… I don’t know. I guess you can put anything on a salad.

Claire: It feels like that question of, everything is a soup or a sandwich. Or everything is a salad or a sandwich.

Joy: This one has stumped me, quite frankly. Butter… butter? 

Claire: Butter, good.

Joy: Jam? 

Claire: Good.

Joy: Maybe not jam.

Claire: Beef? Good. 

Joy: What’s not to love?

Claire: What’s not to love?

Joy: Whipped cream? Whipped cream, good.

Claire: I could see someone putting Cool Whip in a salad. What fashion trend would you love to see come back, or one that you wouldn’t? I definitely hope that skinny, low-cut jeans never come back. Or just low-cut jeans in general. I think that’s a pretty universal mood for everyone over the age of 30. Please don’t bring those back.

Joy: Please don’t bring those back.

Claire: What’s one that you’d like to see though? I don’t think I have a good enough grasp to have one that I’m waiting for. 

Joy: There are a lot of the 90’s trends where I’m like, oh, I really liked those shoes. I love the platform slides. Like, the Steve Madden. I loved those shoes. I’m like, yay, they’re making a comeback. I haven’t gotten a pair yet. But I love a good platform. I love a good wedge. I feel like that’s really having its moment again.

Claire: Oh, you know what I don’t want to see come back? Kitten heals.

Joy: Never. I never.

Claire: Why? Why were they around for the first time?

Joy: Mules gross me out. I can’t get on board period with mules. 

Claire: You don’t want like a pencil eraser for a heal?

Joy: What’s the point? I’m so frustrated. I also don’t like the baby doll tee trend that was in the 90’s. 

Claire: Yeah, I agree.

Joy: Only Gwen Stefani can pull of a very small cutoff tank top or baby doll tee.

Claire: Do you have a favorite cookbook?

Joy: [laughing] How to Boil Water, actually, yeah.

Claire: Is that a real cookbook?

Joy: It’s a cookbook that teaches you how to cook. And the Martha Stewart Cooking cookbook because it breaks everything down, which I always need.

Claire: We have worked with Cassy Joy with all her books and helping her promote them, but I do truly love them so much.

Joy: I know you do.

Claire: Cook Once, Eat All Week I cook out of almost every week. We are making a recipe from Cook Once Dinner Fix right now. Love them. If you have not checked out her cookbooks, and Cassy is one of those people –

Joy: She’s the best human.

Claire: You think that she is cute and sweet on social media. She is so much cuter and sweeter in real life. She really is. And they just redid their whole website. The whole Fab and Fit website.

Joy: Yes, brand new website.

Claire: I love her cookbooks. Those are my two favorite practical cookbooks that I can turn to any night of the week. I love the Chicken Soup cookbook. I know it’s the middle of July, but if you need a gift idea, there is a cookbook called the Chicken Soup Manifesto that is truly just lovely. It has a handful of chicken soup recipes from every region of the world. It’s so wonderful. And then I love – Tina sent me the Chi Sbacca cookbook from Nancy Silverton. Thank you, Tina. That to me is an aspirational cookbook. It has a shepherd’s pie in there that’s vented with a marrow bone. 

Joy: Oh my.

Claire: Oh Nancy.

Joy: Nancy.

Claire: One day we’re going to have her on the podcast.

Joy: Be on our show, please. Meet us at Mozza. Please make us a meal.

Claire: Okay, so here’s a thing about Nancy Silverton. I unbeknownst to me, during Covid there was this couple that was doing this Vietnamese food – kind of underground takeout situation where they were operating out of the back of a restaurant that was closed at the time. It was a husband and wife. And the husband, his parents are from Vietnam, but the two of them had been working in restaurants in LA and had gotten laid off and had to come back to Colorado. Now, they’re in the worlds of starting a Vietnamese restaurant in Denver. I got this takeout from them several times. It was so, so, so, so good. Come to find that they had both worked at Mozza. 

Joy: No. 

Claire: So I follow them on Instagram. And today they posted something – the two of them had just won an award of like best newcomers to the scene for Denver restaurants. She posted something that was talking about how doing back to working with Nancy Silverton – it says, “A lot of my creative confidence comes from my time at Osteria Mozza working with Nancy. She taught me you had to be relentless when it comes to creativity. If you presented her with a dish at 5pm on Saturday, be prepared to be weeded on your station because she wasn’t going to stop tweaking your dish until she was satisfied, even with a board full of tickets. The dish was done when it became cravable. You want the guests to crave that dish and have them thinking about it a week later.” That totally makes sense. I’m still thinking about that meal 2.5 years ago.

Joy: Still thinking about it, yes.

Claire: I just thought that was a cool little tidbit given our fascination with her.

Joy: That’s so cool. There’s this new show on Hulu called The Bear. It is so good. It’s called The Bear, and it’s about this family who owns a restaurant. There’s this whole backstory, but just watch it. You might get anxiety watching it because it’s very fast paced. But if you want to know what it’s like to run a restaurant, I’ve heard tons of articles talk about this show and how people who’ve worked in restaurants are like, this is beyond accurate of what it’s like to work in a restaurant. It’s just a beautiful story. Got a lot of heart. The characters are great. It’s a phenomenal show. It will stress you out because it’s very fast paced, and there is a lot of high stakes situations. But no blood, guts, and murder We don’t need that right now. I like characters that you fall in love with, and this is definitely one of those shows.

Claire: Alright, we’ll answer a few more in the coming weeks. I love having a little trove of questions to refer back to at the end of the episodes.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Thanks for being here with us this week. Don’t forget to check out our sponsor, Ned. That’s helloned.com/JOY or use discount code JOY for 15% off your first order. Don’t forget, they have a 30-day money back guarantee. Add to your toolbox, get some good sleep. We love them. Give them a try. You can find us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can go to our website joyandclaire.com. It’s beautiful. You should check it out. You can email us thisisjoyandclaire@gmail.com. We hope you have a fantastic week, and we will talk to you next week.

Joy: Bye, guys.

Claire: Bye, guys.