Meghan Markle and Oprah interview, Claire’s advice on becoming a parent, Netflix-watching, and which cult we would join.

Noelle Tarr and Claire Koch episode

Pearl Jam and Miscarriages GGW Episode

Home Cooking with Nadiya H.


instagram: joyandclaire_

This is Joy & Claire Episode 65: Curtain Excitement

Episode Date: March 11, 2021

Audio Length: 51:37 minutes 

Note: Page 6: Delete the highlighted banter if desired.

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is [singing] Joy and Claire. Hello.

Claire: [singing] Welcome.

Joy: This is the new intro song. 

Claire: Da da dada, da da dada. It’s Joy and Claire!

Joy: Jazz hands.

Claire: Jazz hands. So many jazz hands.

Joy: Oh my gosh.

Claire: We’re feeling a little loopy.

Joy: We are feeling very loopy, like right out of the gate I just threw in a little “we shall record,” and then we started having British accents and I started laughing and saying how much I miss seeing people. So that’s where I am today. How about you? You’re sunburnt.

Claire: Yeah, Joy was like, “You look tan.” No. I am not tan. I am sunburned. This happens to me every year at around this time when we have fool’s spring. If you live in a state that has fool’s spring, then you know what I’m talking about.

Joy: Yeah, not “full,” “fool.” Like April Fool’s Day.

Claire: Like fool’s gold. Fool’s spring. Does everyone know the phrase fool’s gold, right? 

Joy: I hope so. I mean, growing up in Arizona, we loved to pan for fool’s gold.

Claire: Yes. In Colorado, same. If you live in a gold rush state, chances are you know what fool’s gold is.

Joy: And then when you’re a kid panning for gold, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I got gold.” 

Claire: And then you’re like, “Eh, it’s Formica.” It’s not even Formica. Formica’s the countertops. It’s just mica. We’re in the middle of fool’s spring right now where it’s high-50’s to mid-high-60’s. But then we’re supposed to have a significant snow storm this weekend. So this is what March is like in Colorado.

Joy: This is March in Colorado where last weekend was so nice.

Claire: So nice, and then the high today is 68, high tomorrow is 66. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, no.

Joy: This is your weather report.

Claire: So excited. 

Joy: I mean, as we get older though, I talk about the weather to my friends all the time. It’s a unifier. Everyone loves to talk about the weather.

Claire: What else do we have to talk about right now?

Joy: Nothing, nothing at all.

Claire: Did I already tell this story about how one of the people –

Joy: Tell it again because I need to hear someone talking.

Claire: We need connections.

Joy: Tell me another story again.

Claire: Somebody I work with, they got new curtains. I made a comment about it in a meeting, and he sent me an IM and he was like, “Are they too much? People keep asking about them.” I was like, “No, Eric. It’s just that no one literally has anything else to talk about besides your new curtains.”

Joy: Yeah, it’s very true. It’s very true. Anything is… weather… I don’t know what else we talk about, really.

Claire: I got this new background in my office. People commented on it for weeks. “Oh my gosh, are you at home? That’s amazing.” I was like, hmm, yes. I’m a WFH influencer now. 

Joy: Oh my gosh, WFH.

Claire: #WFH

Joy: Oh my goodness, yeah. So speaking of British accents, I watched half of the Oprah interview with Meghan and Harry. 

Claire: Oh, I was like, “Where is she going with this?”

Joy: Yeah, so many ways. Did she finally read Harry Potter? What’s going on? 

Claire: Are we talking about British Baking Show? Okay, Meghan Markle, Oprah, bomb shell interview, go. As you guys probably know, I have only interacted with this through other people’s Instagram posts.

Joy: Other people’s Instagram posts. And so being my celebrity obsession, I was very excited about this interview. I knew that the slam dunk contest was on the same night, the All-Star Game that Scott watches every year. Ever since I’ve known him, it’s a tradition for us. So I’m just watching because he loves it so much and because he loves it, and it is really fun to watch. So we DVR’d it, and out of the gate Scott’s like, “Really?” He’s very skeptical about this interview. Scott doesn’t get skeptical about many things.

Claire: Right, he’s not like a skeptical guy.

Joy: He doesn’t have strong opinions about celebrities. So he kind of starts rolling his eyes. I always call it hot breath. I’m like, “Don’t give me hot breath,” because whenever he’s watching something, I can hear him in the background either making fun of it or being like [heavy exhale].

Claire: He like starts panting.

Joy: Yes. 

Claire: It’s weird, but okay, go on.

Joy: So he starts giving this attitude. I’m like, “What’s wrong?” He’s like, “They’re the royals. What are you complaining about?” I’m like, “Excuse me?” So I start listing all the things that Meg has been through, and obviously he doesn’t follow celebrity culture. So he’s kind of giving me crap about it. So I watched the first half because first of all, it was two hours long. Yeah, I’m not kidding. And there were so many darn commercials because CBS had the capital on this whole thing. There were many, many commercials. I’m sure they made a ton of money because of it, but I made it through the first half because it was late and I wanted to go to bed. I watched on my watch watch how long the interview actually was, and for an hour –

Claire: Your watch watch?

Joy: My wrist watch. My actual watch.

Claire: Got it.

Joy: Not the DVR clock. 

Claire: Watch watch.

Joy: An hour of DVR was like 25 minutes of an interview. 

Claire: Got it.

Joy: So I was like, okay, I got to go to bed. I haven’t watched the second half as of this recording. I’m only the first half in. This is Monday that we’re recording this. And the first half of it really – I mean, everyone needs to watch it. I’m guessing Oprah might – I don’t know because it was on CBS, but I’m wondering if Oprah will release it on her podcast channel as an audio version. I’m like, oh my gosh, sitting through so many commercials. It didn’t surprise me because I think we all knew just through tabloids or in the news that things were not going well for Meghan. I didn’t follow the story very closely. I’m not super into the royals. I wonder people in the UK if they have more of a view about it.

Claire: Scandalized.

Joy: Yeah. There’s been a lot of social media posts recently after that interview comparing side-by-side the media posts after Kate had a baby or after Kate got married to William and the posts comparing it with Meghan getting married to Harry and how horribly she’s been treated. And you can tell, there’s just no arguing that she was treated very poorly based on what she’s saying. And why would she lie to Oprah? Who’s going to lie to Oprah? 

Claire: Who’s going to lie to Oprah?

Joy: You don’t lie to Oprah. Everybody knows what happened to James Frey. You do not lie to Oprah.

Claire: Oh my gosh, I forgot about that.

Joy: You remember that?

Claire: See, that’s what happens. You forgot about those guys that lie to Oprah.

Joy: You forget about those guys.

Claire: You lie to Oprah, you get forgotten.

Joy: It’s kind of like a confessional. You go to hell if you lie to Oprah, and you are banished from the earth. 

Claire: You go straight to hell.

Joy: Banished, banished, banished. 

Claire: Nothing left.

Joy: Nothing left. You’re ashes in the earth. I have to take a really quick side bar right now. I want to know if anyone out there has watched The Great Race. If you ever watched The Great Race, it’s… I don’t know, I want to say 1960’s maybe, early 70’s, probably 1960’s. I grew up watching it. My brother and I love it. And if anyone out there knows that movie when I just said, “Banished, banished, banished,” I will be so excited. I just need a friend who’s seen that movie. Okay. So I feel like everything that she said is the truth, but I also feel like she’s so guarded. Everything that she was saying, you can tell she was saying very thoughtfully. She was trying not to speak ill of anybody, but she was just speaking about her experience, the facts about her experience. It’s loaded with racism. She talks about how – and if anyone wants to skip ahead 30 seconds or a minute, I’m about to give a minor spoiler. It’s not really a spoiler, but – that when she was about to have their first baby Archie, they were talking about not giving him security. They were like, “We’re not going to give you security.” And she was like, “Well, why?” Because they were not going to be doing… whatever. They didn’t want to give Archie security. Everyone gets security. Because they weren’t going to give him a title. So that started a slew of things. But then she said something along the lines of, and I’m paraphrasing, one or two people, maybe a few people, said to Harry, made a comment about the color of their baby’s skin and that he may come out too dark.

Claire: Because they were worried.

Joy: And you should have seen Oprah’s face when she said that. She was like, “What?” So just if that in an interview, even the first hour – and again I’ve only watched the first half, so that’s what I’m speaking about – just that glimpse of what she’s dealing with in her life, my heart goes out to her and to her mom and to her side of the family for everything that they’ve dealt with. We will never know, that’s not ours to know their own personal life. And even the fact that she has to do this interview and tell people her personal business, it’s kind of like, again, she’s in the spotlight because she married a royal. But I just… ugh, that just I think everyone walked away feeling like, “Yeah, this is what happens. This is what happens to black women.” Someone put a post up about how – I remember saying this too, back when she got married, when they got married. I remember saying, “It was such a beautiful event, I felt the unity. It was so cool to see a black priest. It was so cool to see a black choir.” All of this felt like, oh there’s unity, or there’s a changing of the tides to bring more culture into the royals. That’s very white of me to think that. That was a white thing to think. Someone posted about that too, of how we all kind of thought the fairy tale wedding was very much like, “Oh, look at this bringing color into the royals.” I just thought a lot about that too. I was like, yeah, I totally thought that too, and then all of the crap that she’s been dealing with. So I’m going to watch the second half tonight, and I will report back.

Claire: Please do.

Joy: Go Meghan Markle.

Claire: It always just comes back to Oprah.

Joy: It does, it really does. Is there a greater human?

Claire: I mean, I’m so glad that we haven’t had to endure an Oprah scandal. Can you imagine?

Joy: I’m curious. If we were to be scandalized for something, what would it be?

Claire: Like how everybody came to find that Ellen DeGeneres was terrible to all of her employees.

Joy: So, is that true?

Claire: Right. I don’t know. But that type of a scandal. Like what if we came to find that Oprah hated all of her staff and everybody on her staff felt super toxic.

Joy: Oh my gosh, yeah.

Claire: And that she didn’t smell great. What if we found out that she smelled like patchouli.

Joy: I actually love the smell of patchouli. 

Claire: I do too, actually. 

Joy: I love it, I really do. That would kind of flip my world upside down where all of the sudden if Oprah had a scandal, I would probably start to think the world was flat. That’s how much of an upset that would be.

Claire: Right. Oh my goodness.

Joy: I’d be like, okay fine, QAnon exists and Trump is great.

Claire: Oh no.

Joy: Please do not take that as a sound bite. 

Claire: We’re not going to put that in the transcript.

Joy: Never again, never again. Our transcriber, please take that out. 

Claire: You’re hearing this is real time. Edit, edit, edit. Delete, delete, delete. [00:10:50.10]

Joy: Oh my gosh. Can I say one quick thing too? I’ve been really, really thinking more – okay, because I listen to Amy Poehler on – okay, and we have to talk about Moxie. But I listened to Amy Poehler’s interview on Willie Geist. He does this called the Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist. I think he’s NBC, ABC, anyway. He’s a news reporter on one of the major national networks. And he does a weekly podcast with a celebrity. It has to be NBC because he’s in the same building as SNL. So he did this interview with Amy. She talked about Moxie. She talked about how she’s not on social media, and she just made this post of never being on social media, never signing up for Facebook, never being on Instagram. And I was like, “That sounds so nice.” That just sounds so nice to just be gone from the existence of social media. In the same breath, I’m like, I don’t know if I could do it. And that also made me very sad about myself. But there’s something to that where she’s like, “I’ve never once felt like I was missing out. I’ve never felt like I’m getting one good thing from it.” 

Claire: I know.

Joy: I’m tossing it around.

Claire: We talk about it all the time.

Joy: I know, we talk about it all the time, but maybe we just all need to –

Claire: Peace out, Instagram.

Joy: Peace out, Instagram. Peace out, Facebook.

Claire: Definitely peace out, Facebook. I mean, we haven’t posted on Facebook as a podcast in months. And I don’t use my personal Facebook for anything. I can’t think of a single thing that I do on Facebook. I really like Instagram.

Joy: I really like Instagram. The only reason I use Facebook is seeing what my family members are up to. That’s it.

Claire: None of my family is on Facebook.

Joy: Like, my cousin and their kids, I like to see. Sometimes my sister-in-law will post pictures of my nieces and nephew, those types of things. But I’m like, I can text them, and they can send me pictures.

Claire: Totally. And then, we got a DM the other day that was like, “Hey, do you guys have any other invites to Clubhouse?” Just FYI guys, Clubhouse never went anywhere.

Joy: It was a bust, don’t do it. I was on it for a week. It was kind of cool to just learn what the new app was, but then I was like, this is not worth my time.

Claire: I don’t have time to consume real-time stuff like that.

Joy: Anything that’s really worth having a conversation, I’m like, put it on the podcast so I can listen to it later.

Claire: That’s the thing.

Joy: I get the thing of live conversations is kind of cool and an audio version.

Claire: I don’t have time for that.

Joy: I just don’t have time for it.

Claire: I just don’t. So if you’re on Clubhouse and you’re enjoying it, loving it, let us know.

Joy: Let us know what you’re listening to, which clubhouse you’re in.

Claire: That’s making it feel worthwhile because every time I got on there, I was like I don’t have time for this.

Joy: Yeah, you’re not missing out.

Claire: No. At least, from us.

Joy: I feel like at this point there’s not many apps that I feel like I’m going to be missing out on. There’s not going to be one great new one.

Claire: I mean, I don’t know. I felt that way about TikTok though when it came out. I was like, “What the hell is TikTok?” and now it’s a huge thing.

Joy: That’s true. Whatever. I’m so old.

Claire: I know. I don’t even have a Twitter. I mean, I have one, but I haven’t tweeted in years.

Joy: Yeah, I’m debating on shutting down our podcast one. I always do that, but then I’m like, “But, what if…” 

Claire: I know, but it’s like, but what if what?

Joy: What if what? We open a new account and we just make a new handle. 

Claire: I’m pretty sure that at any given time, you can revive your accounts that you’ve, you know. Just sign out of it.

Joy: That’s a good point. I’m still salty about the person who owns @joyandclaire. 

Claire: Yes.

Joy: Please, whoever you are, give us that account.

Claire: Give us that account. I’m going to check it right now. Maybe they’ve given it up. [searching on Instagram] Joy and Claire…

Joy: It’s @joyandclaire on Instagram. That’s the reason why we have @joyandclaire_.

Claire: Yeah. They have no followers, and they’re not following anyone, and they only have one post. And so many times, we’ve been like –

Joy: We’ve messaged them, and no one responds. So someone is sitting on it, and they’re not responding. Can you tell if they’ve read the message?

Claire: No, you can’t even tell because it’s been like two years.

Joy: Who are you?

Claire: Who are you?

Joy: Show yourself.

Claire: Nope. Alright, so we wanted to answer a few of the questions that we didn’t get to last week and then also answer some more questions. This past week I went to Durango, as you guys know because our episode from last week we recorded while I was in Durango. And on my drive home, I did a little Instagram Q&A, and I got some good questions that I wanted to talk about.

Joy: I need to do that sometime. I always love when you do that, and I always worry – this is my forever fear that no one is going to show up to the party – I always worry that if I do that, no one’s going to ask me questions.

Claire: Alright guys, you’re hearing it here first. Joy is going to put out a call for questions, and you guys have to ask questions. They always do, even if they’re the same question.

Joy: I know. I always feel like I’m going to be that girl at the party that’s like, “Is anybody home?”

Claire: I’ll ask you questions, Joy.

Joy: Okay, great.

Claire: I’ll text your mom and make sure she asks some questions too.

Joy: Before I forget, did you like Moxy?

Claire: I haven’t seen it yet. 

Joy: Oh, you haven’t seen it? Okay, everybody watch Moxie on Netflix. It’s great.

Claire: We’ll talk about it next week. I wanted to watch it. So it took us 2.5 weeks just to watch The Dig because that’s our life. 

Joy: Oh wow.

Claire: We started watching it, and that was the night that Miles came downstairs with a mystery rash on his face. So it’s like, of course, the one night that we decide on a movie and actually turn it on, our kid walks downstairs with a rash on his face.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: So then we tried to watch it again the next night and still only got another third of the way through. Yeah, it took forever. I liked it though. Did you watch The Dig?

Joy: I haven’t watched The Dig.

Claire: I liked it.

Joy: Is it slow? I feel like it’s going to be a slow movie.

Claire: Here’s the thing. It’s now slow, but the pacing of it is weird. It’s based on a book. 

Joy: [laughing]

Claire: But let me tell you what I mean by that. 

Joy: Okay, okay.

Claire: It feels like it was originally written to be sort of like a Queen’s Gambit-esque series, that size of a series. And then for whatever reason, halfway through they were like, “Never mind, we finally got Ralph Fiennes to sign on. It has to just be a movie.” Because there’re all of these little tiny subplots that are just mentioned and then gone. You’re like, why even bring that up. 

Joy: Oh, yeah.

Claire: There’s one part where there’s some voice over, and you’re like, “Why is there a voice over here? There’s no voice overs in any other part of the movie.” So just parts like that where you’re like, this feels like it was part of a different project and then was consolidated all into a movie weirdly.

Joy: And they were like, “Oh, let’s change the plan.”

Claire: Actually instead of a four-part series with hour-long episodes, it’s just going to be a two-hour long movie. So in that sense, the pacing is weird. But the story is nice. Obviously, it didn’t grab me so much that I couldn’t watch it in three sittings, but I really love Ralph Fiennes so much.

Joy: I do too.

Claire: I’m really coming around to Lily James. Do you know who I’m talking about?

Joy: Yes, I do. 

Claire: I didn’t like her that much in Downton Abbey because I was like, why are you even here, you’re so frantic. But I’m getting to like her more. And she’s in so many things right now.

Joy: She’s in so many things.

Claire: Like I feel like whoever her agent is is BFF’s with the Netflix guys. And then I watched the trailer with Brandon for Moxie, to feel it out.

Joy: To get hyped up, yeah.

Claire: And he looked at me like, “You don’t really want to watch that, do you?” And I was like, “Okay fine, I won’t watch it with you.” So yeah, no, we didn’t watch it.

Joy: So if people don’t know, it’s on Netflix. It is a –

Claire: Amy Poehler’s new movie.

Joy: Yeah, it’s directed by Amy Poehler. It’s based on a book.

Claire: It seems like it’s kind of the Mean Girls for Gen Z.

Joy: It is. It’s very much that, and it’s just really well done. And the cast is kind of new actors and actresses, so I feel like they’re – I don’t know, I just feel like they’re fun. I love seeing new people on the screen. Good feel good. I’m really needing a new show. I’ve watched one episode of five shows, and I can’t get into any of them, so I’m starting to rewatch things. So I’m like, oh the new Shrill season is coming up in April. I’m going to rewatch the last season so I know what’s going on. Because you know sometimes we just forget what the last season was about. And Handmaid’s Tale I think is coming out soon again. I don’t know if I can handle watching the last season of that. Last season was rough. They just need to end it.

Claire: That sounds intense.

Joy: They need to end it.

Claire: Just pull the plug.

Joy: Just pull the plug. Just end it all. So sorry, next question that you had from your poll.

Claire: Okay, I wanted to just pivot for a minute and talk about parenting for a few minutes because I get a lot of questions about – obviously I’m a mom and have two kids. I get a lot of questions about a lot of things around parenting and around pregnancy and postpartum because I went through three miscarriages between having Miles and having Evie. And also having Miles I had severe postpartum depression. Which most of you guys know that, but I’m saying that in case you weren’t a Girls Gone WOD listener. If you want to go back and listen. If this is something that you’re going through and want dedicated episodes for those things, first of all I recorded an episode with Noelle Tarr, at this point, probably two years ago. She had really bad postpartum anxiety. So the two of us recorded an episode together that you can literally just Google “Claire Koch Noelle Tarr postpartum” and it will come up. Where we really go into a lot of detail about our experiences with those different issues and what we did to get out of that hole and resources. But more than anything, just our personal experiences because both of us found that hearing other people talk about it made it easier for us to recognize what we were going through. So definitely recommend going back and listening to that episode, and we’ll link to it in the show notes as well. Then we had an episode that came out in August or September of 2018, and it’s called “Pearl Jam and Miscarriages” I want to say.

Joy: Yeah, that was the week I went to see Pearl Jam in concert, yeah, and then you talked about it.

Claire: Right. That’s on our Girls Gone WOD feed, and we’ll link to that episode in the show notes as well. That’s where I go into a lot of detail about the detailed specifics – not the details of having miscarriages, but really what I went through and more specifically the actions that I took coming out of it just to help me feel like I had some control. Not to say by any means that it solved the problem that was causing the miscarriages because we never figured out what was going on. But for me to mentally and emotionally feel like I had some control over it, there were a lot of things that I did, and so I talk a lot about that. All that to say that I get a lot of questions, and I don’t always want to be just talking about it over and over. But I do think that it’s helpful for people to hear. So I got a couple questions last week, and we also got a question that I wanted to go back to in our Q&A that was, “When you become a parent, does your identity just completely change?” I’m paraphrasing the question, but I wanted to start there. I think that honestly the biggest thing for me with becoming a mom the first time with having Miles was that it came with an identity crisis that I really wasn’t ready for. That being said, I say “identity crisis” because it really rocks your priorities and you really can’t know what it’s going to feel like to truly no longer be the most important person in your life. That sounds kind of dramatic, but unless you have kids or are a caretaker for dependents, you can’t really know what it’s like to literally overnight go from you being the main character in your life to someone else being the main character in your life. And that’s really jarring. So that process felt to me like an identity crisis. What have I done? It can feel very suffocating, at least for me it did. But once I was able to process through it – and that took therapy for me. It doesn’t for everybody. But a lot of therapy for me to process through that. It doesn’t feel permanent. So, yes, it was a moment in time where I really felt like, what the heck just happened and what the heck have I done. But now that I have two kids – first of all, if you’re thinking about having a second kid and that process the first time scared the heck out of you, in my experience you only have to go through that once. You don’t go through it again with the second kid because that shift only happens once.

Joy: Yeah, and you’re like, we’re in this so bring them all on.

Claire: You only become a mom for the first time once. Thank God. Just so you know, you don’t have to go through it twice. But the other thing is that it definitely becomes less intense pretty quickly. I was talking to one of my good friends who’s about to have their second kid and I was trying to say that both times that I had kids, the “oh shit” curve was steep but resolved pretty quickly. So I would say that if that’s something that you’re freaked out about, know that that’s a very valid thing to be freaked out about, but also know that you’re not walking around for the rest of your life feeling uncomfortable in your skin. I think when we hear the phrase “identity crisis” or we think about a huge shift in your identity, you really dwell on the discomfort of that first moment. But eventually you really do get used to it. Yeah, of course, every major experience in your life is going to change you in ways that you can’t undo. Parenting is a really unique one of those. But I think about this, and I don’t want to compare getting tattoos with having kids, but people all the time are like, “Tattoos are permanent.” Pretty much anything you do to your body – you make decisions every day that are permanent. Why dwell on these certain ones? I think just putting that into perspective. But then, to go from that question into another question that I got about where I feel like I kind of give the opposite advice, which somebody asked me, “What advice would you give to somebody in their 20’s?” And what I said was, your 20’s is just such a time of transition. Anybody going through a transition, the advice I always give is to just remember that there are very, very few decisions in your life that are truly permanent. Having kids is really the only one I can think of that literally can’t be undone. You can get divorced, you can change cities, you can cut your hair, you can change your body, you can change your name. There are so few things that you can’t undo, and I think that when you are faced with a lot of seemingly very formative decisions all in a row, you can lose track of the fact that at any time in your life you can start over. Yeah, that is not always easy. It’s not always financially whatever. It’s not like you can just flip the switch and start over with no consequences. But that option is available to you. And I think we really forget that, especially in our 20’s and the first phases of any new transition. We feel like the decisions we are about to make are so permanent and so intense and so like, you have to get it right the first time. And that’s really just not the case.

Joy: It’s very much like what we’ve been fed to believe, the narrative of you go to college, you graduate, you get married, you have kids, you get a job, maybe you don’t get a job. All of those things are the narrative of what you’ve been fed success looks like. And I think that’s really – how can that not be anxiety provoking for somebody in their 20’s? I mean, that was anxiety provoking for me, having a hard time not comparing where someone else was in their career journey or some of my peers going on to get their PhD and I didn’t go on to get my PhD. All of those things, I think you start to think this is going to mess up the trajectory of the rest of my life, and that’s just simply not true. It’s just simply not true.

Claire: Right. And to completely, like I was saying, diverge from the advice I give to new moms or if you’re thinking about having kids and around that transition, I think that the thing to say to people in a transitional period is that kind of yellow brick road that you think you’re supposed to follow, no one follows it. Most of us don’t realize that until well into our 30’s and 40’s and all of the sudden it’s like, “Oh my gosh, wait a minute. I didn’t have to make all these permanent decisions in my 20’s? I can reinvent myself as many times as I want? I can try things out without them being my passion? I can dabble? I can try things and decide I don’t like them?” You know. And what’s that concept – what’s it called where – like “sunk costs.” I feel like there’s another way to say that where it’s like, “Well, I’ve already invested so much time and money into this, I can’t give up now.” It’s like, well, if you hate it then give up. Not give up, but if you hate it you’re not giving up. You tried it, you hated it. Don’t keep going just because you’ve already spent time on it. I get it because I’ve been there. 

Joy: I mean, that’s kind of like cults again. Circling back to cults. When you’ve been in it so long, you’re like, “Well, surely I’ve put so much time into this.”

Claire: Yeah, not even to go as dramatic as that. It’s just so common.

Joy: I know, but where you’re like, “I can’t change my mind. I put so much time into this.” 

Claire: Even when it comes to college majors and stuff. How many people do you know, like Brandon, so many people I know –

Joy: Yes. Or even relationships where you’re just like, I’ve been with this person for 20 years. There’s so much history there, I just can’t imagine starting over. It’s like, no, you’re just changing your mind. Maybe it’s a new beginning. Life is not this linear trajectory. It’s just not. It’s not this you do things and you just keep going until you die. You can change your mind and do whatever the heck you want.

Claire: Right. And I think that in the moment, it’s so hard to see that.

Joy: It’s very hard to see that.

Claire: Maybe it’s easy to tell yourself that, but it’s not going to be easy to tell your mom that or your boss that or your, you know, mentor or your PhD mentor or whatever. So if you need to hear right now that it’s okay to make a different decision –

Joy: Change your mind and pivot.

Claire: And/or if you are facing a decision to be made and are feeling like, “Well, I have to get this right because I’m not going to get another chance,” that’s just not true.

Joy: That’s just not true. You can change your life. You can change careers. You can break up with that person. You can do whatever you want.

Claire: You can change your name and move to France. Maybe not right now.

Joy: We will support you.

Claire: Okay, and then the one other question that I wanted to talk about was back to pregnancy was dealing with pregnancy anxiety after you’ve had a pregnancy loss. Like I was saying, as you guys know, I had three miscarriages between Miles and Evie. After all of them, I had this thought that all I needed to do was have a “successful” pregnancy, and that would just erase. The miscarriages were failures, and I just needed to succeed, and that would erase the failures. That was how I viewed it, and I don’t obviously see miscarriage as a failure anymore. I think that is a horrible way to view it, but that was how I viewed it. Then when I was pregnant with Evie and I got through the first trimester, I expected to have a ton of anxiety in the first trimester and so I kind of just road it out. And then I got through the first trimester and I was still having horrible flashbacks, true PTSD, waking up in the middle of the night, horrible. So I had been seeing a therapist, and the reason I had been seeing this therapist because I don’t want to go through postpartum depression again. Or I don’t believe there’s a lack of something – no lack of preparation or taking the wrong vitamins or not having the right support. Nothing causes postpartum depression, but I wanted to be more prepared for it in the event I was going to have to go through it again. So I was seeing a therapist. During that time, I was finally like, “Listen, this is what’s going on.” She was like, “Okay, you’re describing PTSD.” She happened to be trained in EMDR, and so I ended up doing quite a few EMDR sessions with her, and that really, really helped. But I just wanted to put out there that if you’re going through pregnancy following a pregnancy loss, for many, many people, going through a pregnancy loss is literal trauma. Not everyone experiences it that way, of course. Everybody experiences different things differently in their own bodies, but for so many people it is a truly traumatic experience and you are going to have that with you until you process it in some way. And if it doesn’t come up now, it’s going to come up eventually. It is something that you might benefit from professional help with dealing with. So for me, I did EMDR. When my therapist first was like, “You should try EMDR. I’m trained in EMDR if you want to give it a shot.” It sounded so dramatic to me.

Joy: Yeah, whenever I explain it to patients, I always feel like I’m telling them about witchcraft. 

Claire: It sounds so intense.

Joy: I’m always like, “Okay, this is going to sound crazy, but just hear me out.” 

Claire: And guys, I don’t love therapy. I don’t love talking about my feelings. As far as I’m concerned, if there’s stuff buried in my subconscious –

Joy: It needs to be there.

Claire: Just stay there.

Joy: Let is just sit.

Claire: Just let it remain undisturbed at the bottom of the pond. So I was kind of skeptical, but my therapist was great. She started it so incrementally that by the time we actually did it, it felt very anticlimactic. We literally would start with five minutes at a time. It was like, “Hey, we’re just going to talk about this one sort of inconsequential topic while doing these EMDR techniques and then we’re going to go back to regular talk therapy for the rest of the session.” For me, that’s the way I really needed to do it. She knew that had we just dove straight in, it would have completely overwhelmed me because I get emotionally overwhelmed very easily and I would have just shut down.

Joy: Sure. EMDR is really intense. I can explain that, what type of therapy it is in a second because people are probably like, what is that.

Claire: Yeah, go ahead.

Joy: In very short, it’s a therapy intervention that was originally used for PTSD and veterans, but now you can use it for any type of trauma. It stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. It uses a bilateral stimulation of your brain using your right-left brain to process trauma. There’s a very strict protocol that you use. You’re not using talk therapy. The therapist is walking you through the protocol, and it works very, very well for trauma. It’s not appropriate for everybody, so I will say if you’re interested in that type of therapy please talk to your therapist or a professional to discuss whether you are appropriate. Someone who’s trained in EMDR can discuss whether or not you are appropriate. Your regular therapist, if they don’t know about EMDR, they’re not going to know whether or not you’re a good candidate. But that’s just something to know that it isn’t something for everyone, but it is very effective for candidates for processing trauma.

Claire: I should also clarify that it we weren’t just like, “Okay, you want to try EMDR now? Okay.” It was very much a specific portion of the therapy session. But it wasn’t like I just walked in one day and did an hour of EMDR cold. That would have probably made things worse for me. So I was grateful to have a therapist that knew that about me.

Joy: Which is great, which is great. And it’s really good to have a therapist who’s trained in EMDR because then they can do sessions that are kind of mixed that way. There’s a lot of sessions – we call it resource development – there’s a lot of sessions before you even start to do what we call the “bilateral stimulation.” And that just means you are stimulating the brain by holding onto these little buzzers or you can do eye movements. You can tap your legs by yourself if you want to. It all has to do with the right-left movement of the brain. Really fascinating. If you’re interested, just Google it. The creator is pretty amazing of what she did to actually develop this type of therapy.

Claire: I use the little –

Joy: The buzzers.

Claire: The little buzzers, and they look like little computer mice kind of.

Joy: Yes. They’re teeny tiny, and they fit in the palm of your hand. We call them buzzers in the therapy world, but they don’t buzz you. We all describe it like they’re little kittens purring in your hands.

Claire: Yeah, they will gently vibrate.

Joy: Very gentle.

Claire: And they hand them to you, and you’re like, “This is it? I just hold these things?”

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: You’re like, “I thought there was going to be electrodes on my brain”

Joy: Right, it’s not that complicated. And you can put headphones on. Some people can do both. You can do headphones and the beeping will go in tandem with your buzzers in your hands. You can turn up the frequency. You can make the buzzers buzz heavier or more intense, but they never shock you. When we say buzzers, they’re little kittens purring in your hands.

Claire: It’s like a little massage.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: Anyway. Okay, so that kind of covers the quick few things that I had thought of from our last Instagram Q&A that I wanted to share on the podcast. That brings us to a couple of questions from last week that we didn’t get to. The one I’m sure you guys have all been waiting for is to know what type of cult would Joy join.

Joy: Oh my gosh. You know what, I would probably join – this is not a cult, really. Where did we go when we saw the Burning Man poster? Where were we when we saw Burning Man poster? Remember? Was that with you? I swear that was with you. It was the airport where we flew into Sandy’s, and there was some big poster of Burning Man.

Claire: Oh, yes, no, no, no, it was when we went to Tahoe.

Joy: Oh, that’s right. That’s right.

Claire: Because Reno is where you fly in to go to Burning Man a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joy: So I feel like I would join in some hippy dippy cult – not to say Burning Man’s a cult.

Claire: You would become a Burning Man.

Joy: Okay, that’s true, that’s true.

Claire: Some people take it to the degree that it has some cult characteristics for sure.

Joy: For sure. So I would dip my toe in the Burning Man world, for sure.

Claire: Wow. 

Joy: Because you get to wear really cool outfits.

Claire: I know, there’s a lot of glitter involved.

Joy: Wear glitter on your face, and just anything goes. Anything goes.

Claire: Just fur bikinis and glitter eyeliner for days.

Joy: Totally.

Claire: I would like to join a baking cult. I don’t know what that means. I’m open to ideas, if anyone out there would like to set some ground rules and join a commune with me where we bake. Ideally somewhere that I somehow both warm but also mossy.

Joy: Not the baker’s tent because that’s way too hot.

Claire: I romanticize the idea of living in Scotland or Ireland where it’s very – but it’s so cold and rainy and windy.

Joy: No, wind is the worst, yeah.

Claire: Wind is the worst.

Joy: The worst. So Nadiya Bakes is a new Netflix show. Have you watched it yet?

Claire: Yes.

Joy: Okay. Here’s Scott Parrish’s take because Scott watched it with me. He gets very stressed out that she does three recipes in one episode. He’s like, “This is way too fast. How is she moving onto these cupcakes already? What happened to the cake and the pie?” He gets very nervous.

Claire: Has Scott ever had to cook a meal for a family?

Joy: No, but he gets very nervous about how – he wants more information about –

Claire: He wants to linger.

Joy: He wants to linger on the recipe. He wants to see more details. It goes very, very fast. I think it’s great because I think she’s the cutest. So that’s another Netflix show.

Claire: The whole thing is that she’s like… no, I’m thinking of Time to Eat where she’s like, here’s how you have to actually put – I have seen Nadiya Bakes, but Nadiya’s Time to Eat – I mean, I get it though. I love her. She’s so cute. She has the best eyebrow makeup. 

Joy: She really does. She’s just great. I love her. And I love how she feeds the crew at the end of every episode. It’s so cute.

Claire: I mean, she’s so cute. Did you ever listen to the Home Cooking episode with her on it?

Joy: No. No, no, no, no.

Claire: You should. That’s the only podcast I ever listened to. She was on it, and she was so cute. And it’s so cute because they all bond over having Indian parents who don’t think anything they do is good enough.

Joy: So cute.

Claire: It’s so funny.

Joy: Oh my gosh, that’s adorable. By the way, speaking of shows, you watched Barb and Star, right?

Claire: Yeah, it was so weird. Did you watch it?

Joy: I haven’t watched it yet because now I’m scared because you’re like it’s the weirdest thing.

Claire: It’s the weirdest thing. But okay, here’s why it was weird. I think it I –

Joy: This is the new Kristen Wiig movie.

Claire: So it’s Kristen Wiig and the same cowriter she had with Bridesmaids. So I was like, high expectations.

Joy: Gold.

Claire: And if you watch the trailer, it just looks very sort like, oh two midwestern middle-aged best friends go on vacation. Hilarity ensures.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: However, what it doesn’t say in the trailer –

Joy: Spoiler?

Claire: Yeah, I mean, spoiler, but you’re going to want this spoiler.

Joy: You’re going to want this.

Claire: It’s like airplane style humor.

Joy: Oh my gosh, yes.

Claire: Almost Mike Myers style humor where you’re like, this is so weird. Or like Mel Gipson –

Joy: Top Secret.

Claire: Or like… not Star Wars, but the Star Wars spoof that they did. What was it called? Come on.

Joy: Oh, Space Balls.

Claire: Space Balls, gah, it was right there. I was like, “Space Wars? No, what is it?” Space Wars is a different movie. Space Balls. It’s like that type of humor where you’re like, am I laughing?

Joy: But you weren’t expecting it. You were like, I wish I knew.

Claire: I had no idea. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: So had I gone into it knowing that it was going to be really bizarre and just weird humor. Like at one point, there’s a blue crab that’s voiced by Morgan Freeman. Gosh, what’s her name? 

Joy: A blue crab?

Claire: Yeah. There’s so many cameos, like Kristen’s sitting on the beach and she’s like, “Blue crab, what should I do?” And he’s like, “Well, let me tell you” and goes on and on about life. 

Joy: Didn’t she fall down a waterfall? You said something about, anyway…

Claire: Yeah, she falls into the ocean and – oh gosh, I can’t remember anybody’s name right now. 

Joy: She turns into something.

Claire: A famous country star who has a cameo as a mermaid and saves them from drowning. And at one point, they have an ecstasy trip. Kristen Wiig also plays this villain who the whole premise of the movie is that she hates this town in Florida and she wants to release these killer mosquitos.

Joy: Oh my gosh, what? That’s not at all what I would have –

Claire: Not at all. None, zero.

Joy: Killer mosquitos?

Claire: So it’s so weird, and you don’t have any idea going into it that it’s going to be weird. You just think it’s going to be this quirky comedy.

Joy: Bridesmaids. You’re like Bridesmaids middle-aged.

Claire: Right. Had I been ready for this super weird comedy, I think I would have liked it. But because I didn’t know that’s what it was going to be, the whole time I was just like, “What’s going on?” 

Joy: What’s going on, yeah. Okay, you heard it here first. You’ve been warned. You’ve been warned.

Claire: Yeah, get high before you watch Barb and Star.

Joy: Yeah, seriously.

Claire: I did get high before I watched it, and it still made no sense, to be clear. And actually, that made it worse because I was looking at Brandon like, “Are you seeing this?” Or, “Is that Morgan Freeman?”

Joy: [laughing] Things you say when you’re stoned watching a regular movie, except it wasn’t.

Claire: Except it wasn’t a regular movie, and I didn’t know. 

Joy: That is so freaking funny.

Claire: Not recommend. Alright guys, do we want to do a few more questions? 

Joy: Yeah, I have a good one. “When will you have Jessie Gubbins on?”

Claire: Oh my gosh. Hi, Jessie.

Joy: Jessie, please come on our show. Let’s just talk. Let’s just talk about life in Dubai. Every time I watch your stories – those of you who aren’t familiar with Jess, she’s our CrossFit friend from the first days of the podcast. She came to Colorado the first year we were doing the podcast, and we met her in real life at a bar. She’s just the best. She posts these amazing photos of her dog every day and the amazing meals she makes. She often posts her workouts with the most precise details. She’s very organized and organizes her –

Claire: She has color-coded rainbow kettlebells. 

Joy: Yes, color-coded rainbow kettlebells.

Claire: Her shoes always match her outfit. 

Joy: Yeah, so everything she does, I’m always like, you are the grounding that I needed in the pandemic. Every time she posts, I’m like, “You are my grounding person.” And then I love seeing the weather every day because it’s so hot in Dubai all the time. So just follow her. Her Instagram is @jessgubb. She’s the best.

Claire: She’s so cute.

Joy: So Jessie, please come on our show. Let’s just talk.

Claire: Except that if she’s in Dubai, that’s like 11 hours ahead of us. It’s the hardest thing to schedule.

Joy: I know, it’s so hard. 

Claire: Remember when we talked to the Dubai fitness challenge guy? And it was like 4 in the morning at his house. 

Joy: Yes.

Claire: And he was such a good sport about it.

Joy: So good.

Claire: One rumor that I want to squash right off the bat is somebody said something about if we are taking distance from Juli Bauer.

Joy: What?

Claire: No, we’re not taking distance from Juli.

Joy: Somebody asked that?

Claire: “Have you chosen to take some distance from Paleo OMG?” No.

Joy: No.

Claire: We love Juli. 

Joy: We love Juli. We don’t see anybody because it’s a pandemic,

Claire: Right, we’ve been in a pandemic.

Joy: We don’t see anybody.

Claire: We’re just hanging out, not talking to – haven’t really been chatting with her lately, but love her. Alright, let’s do a few quick random ones and then we will wrap it up. “What is your favorite time of day?”

Joy: Morning. I love mornings. 

Claire: Blah. 

Joy: I love the mornings. I am up and at ’em and starting the day. I’m one of those annoying people, but I love, love the mornings. Love them so much.

Claire: If you guys could see my face right now. I’m shaking my head in disgust. I want to have a six habits of highly effective non-morning people. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Every freaking LinkedIn headline I see is like how all these CEO’s spend their mornings. I want to wake up at 8. I mean, I don’t get to because I have small kids, but that would be my dream.

Joy: Not everyone who’s successful has to wake up early. I think that’s silly.

Claire: My dream sleep schedule would be to go to bed between 12 and 1 and wake up between 7:30 and 8:30. I would love that. Me and Jess Keys, we’re just going to chill at midnight together. Hi, Jess. Okay, “Any makeup or skincare products that you’ve been loving lately?”

Joy: Okay, so I am still a fan of the New Wash, you guys. This the Hairstory product that I tried a few months ago. I was turned onto it by my naturopath. I went to my hairdresser, and I got my haircut maybe a month ago or so. I got my hair done, and I told her – because here’s the thing. With Graves’ Disease, my hair was getting kind of thin, so I was getting really worried about it, so I started using New Wash. If you go to – this is not an ad, I just really, really like the product. It’s a little pricey, but you don’t use any shampoo or conditioner. You just use this product on your hair, and you can kind of go through the week without having to wash your hair. Anyway, just read about it. If it fits for you, great. I have no investment in it. But I asked my hairdresser because last time I saw her – so, this was maybe two, three months after I saw here when I was first diagnosed with Graves’ Disease and I was not doing well. And the last time, she was like, “Hey, your hair feels so soft. What are you using?” I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I’m using Hairstory.” She’s like, “Oh, I love that product.” So I got the stamp of approval from her, and she’s been doing my hair for years and I really, really value her opinion. And so when she gave me the stamp of approval, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I love Hairstory.” She was like, “It’s a great product. We would sell it in the salon, but they don’t have a great whole sale model.” But she’s like, “Yeah, I love it. I think it’s a great product.” So, Hairstory. And then the other products that I’ve been loving is Dazzle Dry, you guys. It’s a little pricey – again, these are a little more pricey products. But Dazzle Dry, I watched Fed and Fit Cassy use this for years and years, and she always raved about it. 

Claire: She’s the cutest. Why is Cassy the cutest?

Joy: Cutest human. She’s up there with Oprah for me. She’s just the cutest person. 

Claire: Oh my gosh, someone please tag her in this episode and tell her that Joy thinks she’s like Oprah.

Joy: She’s just the cutest, like most –

Claire: I know, she’s so cute.

Joy: The most genuine human.

Claire: She is.

Joy: She’s a genuine human. I don’t think there’s a bad bone in her body.

Claire: I remember talking to Julie about her once, and she was like, “The thing about Cassy is that she’s actually even better in person.”

Joy: I can believe that. She’s even better in person, yeah, just love her. Anyway, I saw Dazzle Dry through Cassy years ago. And then I was in quarantine, I just really, I miss trying new products. So one day I ordered it, and I love it. It’s a nail polish that stays on for a really long time. You do have to follow the directions for it to stay on as long as they say it stays on. It’s this female-owned business in Arizona. I’m all about the Arizona people, so I ordered it and I’ve been doing my nails with Dazzle Dry. Those are my two favorite products right now. Try them out.

Claire: Alright, I don’t have any new products, and I don’t use any products. Brandon’s sister was getting Curology, that face stuff, and she left it here like a year ago. So I finally opened it, which you know the expiration date only takes effect after you open it. Right? 

Joy: Yes, right.

Claire: That’s what I tell myself.

Joy: Once the lid is off.

Claire: Right. Hence the icon. And I’ve been using it. It’s fine. It’s supposed to be formulated for you, but I just used the face wash and moisturizer. It’s fine. It’s a face wash and moisturizer, I don’t know.

Joy: Have you ever had your world rocked by a face wash or moisturizer? I have not. 

Claire: I loved – obsessed with – the FATCO oil cleanser. Do you remember when I found that and I was like, “Why didn’t anyone tell me about oil cleanser?” Why don’t I just buy more of that? I don’t know. It’s so dry here, but I simultaneously hate the feeling of moisturizer. I hate it. I just have this sensory thing.

Joy: I can’t deal with oils either, like putting oils on my face. I want something soapy and sudsy. 

Claire: So you put the oil cleanser on, but then you do wipe it off. So you don’t just let it sit there forever.

Joy: Well, I know, but I think any oily products, I don’t know why that weirds me out. I need a soapy product.

Claire: I really liked it. Yeah, I need to go back to it. And then when I got my hair cut whenever it was, my stylist always influences me to buy the really expensive shampoos. So I’m using this – what’s the spray I told you about?

Joy: Oh my gosh… Paul – no, not Paul Mitchell. Kevin Murphy?

Claire: Kevin Murphy. Thank you for knowing that. I have this really expensive Kevin Murphy salon shampoo and conditioner right now. It’s fine. It smells very nice, but I’m not going to buy it again when I’m done with it.

Joy: Yeah. I also kind of cycle through dry shampoos every once in a while.

Claire: I love still the Kristin Ess dry shampoo.

Joy: Yeah, Kristin Ess dry shampoo. Right now, I’m using a Garnier dry shampoo because the Streicher Sisters had it on their Instagram, and they influenced me. What is the product you said you can put in your hair after you work out? It’s a specific workout to… workout to life? Workout back to work? Is that a Kevin Murphy?

Claire: It wasn’t specifically for working out. It’s just that that’s how I use it.

Joy: Oh. I was getting all excited.

Claire: It’s the R+Co –

Joy: Oh, it’s the R+Co, okay.

Claire: It’s the R+Co hair shoot spray.

Joy: Hair shoot spray, okay.

Claire: You know when you’re sweaty, you don’t necessarily want to put dry shampoo on because then it just turns into paste in your hair – gross. So this is a volumizing spray. A texturizing, volumizing spray. It kind of gives your hair lift so it doesn’t just look like you have greasy hair plastered to your head. But it’s not a dry shampoo, so it doesn’t turn into a paste.

Joy: Okay, great.

Claire: You heard it here first. 

Joy: Heard it here first.

Claire: My only tip. That’s my only beauty tip.

Joy: You’re just going to give us the same product for the next five years.

Claire: Yeah, that’s kind of how I roll. I just find one thing that I like, and I’m like, “Oh, but have you guys tried the Ned Hemp Chapstick yet? Because it’s still my favorite Chapstick.”

Joy: Oh my gosh. Alright, what else? Are we done? Are we done yet?

Claire: So ceremonial… ceremonious? That’s it. That was our last question. So you can find us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can find us on the internet. We are at

Joy: Not for long. Just kidding. We’re going to go off social media. [laughing]

Claire: You can always find us at 

Joy: Yes.

Claire: If you want to find us on Facebook for some reason, even though we haven’t posted on Facebook in 100 years, you can find us at This is Joy and Claire.

Joy: Maybe I’ll refresh it and put something up.

Claire: No, we won’t. Just email us. At the end of the day, guys, just email us. Subscribe, like our podcast, leave a review.

Joy: Leave a review, let us know.

Claire: Tell a friend about us.

Joy: Please spread the word. We’re still doing it.

Claire: Spread the word. We’re still here. Every week. And we’re loving it. We hope you’re still loving it. Just enjoy it. The CrossFit Open starts this week. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Remember when that used to be our major focus of our lives?

Joy: Yes. Speaking of, if you want to support one of our favorite sponsors Double Under Wonder, you can order a jump rope through them and use the discount code JOY.

Claire: They’re so cute. They’re custom, it’s so cute.

Joy: And I love the business.

Claire: So if you’re doing the CrossFit Open, good luck. You can reminisce with us about when that used to be our whole life.

Joy: Yeah. And please tag us in your workout so we can vicariously live through you because I won’t be doing anything like that this year.

Claire: I will be forced to do them – I mean, not forced. I’ll end up doing them because the gym I go to is doing it, and they do this big intramural open, which is super fun and I appreciate that they do that. And also, I did not sign up.

Joy: You didn’t succumb to the guy being like, “Claire, sign up for the open.”

Claire: Conner, I’m not going to sign up. But now I’m feeling FOMO.

Joy: Conner, stop. She’s not going to do it.

Claire: Cut it out Conner. But now I’m feeling FOMO because all their posts and emails are like, “Alright, intramural.” I’m like, “Dang it.”

Joy: That’s how they get you. The FOMO is real.

Claire: The FOMO is real. But speaking of FOMO, do you remember in 2016 when after Miles was born, that was the first year that they did those open announcements where they had a regular person also doing them. And do you remember the very first workout, it was lunges and Bob Harper judged it?

Joy: Totally.

Claire: And I signed up at the end of that workout because I was like, if that girl can do it –

Joy: I can do it, yeah.

Claire: We redid that workout last week, and my bottom is still sore.

Joy: Oh my gosh. Those lunges. I remember that one. That was so tough.

Claire: So bad. So bad.

Joy: I do kind of miss the announcement excitement, I’ve got to say.

Claire: I do too. It’s still going to happen. They’re doing live announcements again, and I hope – I don’t think we follow Dave Castro on Instagram anymore, but we might need to follow him just the next – and the Open this year is only three weeks long.

Joy: Oh, really? I think we stopped following. I think I made a comment that made him mad, and so I’m sure we’re on their crap list, but whatever.

Claire: Oh, whatever. Okay, for example, he already posted it. 21.1 It’s like a wolf carcass head.

Joy: Okay, he’s at his shenanigans.

Claire: It’s a partially decomposed wolf skull is what that looks like.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: So I appreciate that deeply. Thank you for giving the instant gratification that I needed of your cryptic Open clues. Alright guys, we’ll talk to you guys next week.

Joy: Have a good day.

Claire: Bye.

Joy: Bye.

Claire is in Durango, reclaiming March, Billie Eilish documentary, how to pick a gym, how we met our husbands, and listner Q&A!



instagram: joyandclaire_

This is Joy & Claire Episode 64: Reclaiming March

Episode Date: March 4, 2021

Audio Length: 55:26 minutes 


  • Page 10 [00:24:13.19] Check the spelling of “Gray’s” – could not verify the place/spelling.
  • Page 13 [00:31:06.29] Confirm spelling of Wakeen


Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. And it’s March. Time happens, it’s March.

Claire: Oh my gosh, I’m so excited.

Joy: Yeah, but we’re not thinking about last year’s March. Let’s not do that.

Claire: No. Banish that to the ethers. 

Joy: I saw a meme that was some movie with Natalie Portman where it was us thinking about last year’s March, and it was this very scary look on her face from some horror movie. It’s okay. Let it pass. We’re moving on. We’re not there anymore.

Claire: We’re reclaiming March.

Joy: We are reclaiming March.

Claire: And we’re excited about it.

Joy: And how are you doing that, Claire?

Claire: I love March. Okay, so I do really like winter. This winter was a little anticlimactic because I didn’t really get to go skiing. Although, right now – You guys are going to hear this on Thursday. We’re recording this on Sunday because we took a little family road trip to Durango, which is –

Joy: Far.

Claire: – this super cute mountain town. Far. It’s about 6-ish hours from Denver. It’s very near Mesa Verde. It’s pretty close to the southwest corner of the state of Colorado, if any of you guys know where Mesa Verde is or you can imagine the southwest corner. But the problem with Colorado is that – this isn’t the problem. The thing that makes Colorado great is all these mountain passes. And so to get from Denver to southwestern Colorado is really not a straight forward trip. You have to go over a couple of mountain passes, and so it just takes a little while to get here. Anyway, we’re going skiing on Tuesday, and it’s going to be the only time this entire year that I go skiing. I’m not a good skier at all. In general, I just don’t love going fast. 

Joy: I’m the same way. Oddly enough, growing up in Arizona we skied every spring break in Utah. So I grew up skiing, love skiing. I would go super fast as a kid, but now if I was to go skiing, I haven’t been in a while, I would be super conservative and scared to go fast.

Claire: Even as a kid, when I would go in high school, I would go up almost every single weekend. And you’d think I would be good at skiing have skied – I took ski lessons every Saturday from when I was three years old until I was 15.

Joy: Wow.

Claire: You would think I’d be amazing at skiing, but I’m not.

Joy: And by the way, I love the kids ski school where they hold onto the little thing that holds them up. It’s so cute, yes.

Claire: Yeah, the little carrot lift.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: Which in normal adult, it’s called a tow rope. But when you’re in ski school, you call it the carrot lift.

Joy: Oh yeah.

Claire: You know, because it’s on the bunny hill and it’s got a carrot. But yeah, for me it was always and has always been a social activity. Because when you grow up in Boulder, all my friends skied. I had one friend whose parents had a condo in Winter Park, so we would go to the condo. There was the group of guys – in high school it was mostly guys – who were going and jumping off cliffs and stuff. And I was always like, “You know, I’m just going to stay on this cute little blue run, and I’m going to go and eat some pizza and maybe come back out, maybe not.” And I maintain that mindset to this day.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: Where I’m like, you know, I enjoy being outdoors with my friends. And that is why I like to ski. I don’t really care about skiing for the sake of skiing. I don’t know if you guys can hear Evie screaming in the background.

Joy: Oh, I just heard that. I thought it was my dog. 

Claire: Nope. Small child. So anyway, but nonetheless, even though I’m not that good at skiing, I really enjoy going and being outside in the winter and cruising around. It’s always been such a big part of my life that I really miss it when I don’t get to do it. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: So this year has been weird. This is one of the only years of my entire life from toddler years that I haven’t had a ski pass.

Joy: That’s crazy.

Claire: This is maybe the second or third time only in my life that I haven’t had a ski pass, so it will be really fun to go skiing. On Tuesday, we’re going to Purgatory. The name of the resort is Purgatory. It’s the more local… the ski areas in this part of the state are a lot more – Purgatory isn’t – but they have a lot more advanced ski areas in this part of the state because the mountains are a lot more steep and they get a lot more snow. But it’s so much harder to get to that this is much less of a tourist destination than the half a dozen or so ski hills that are within a 3-hour drive of the Denver airport.

Joy: Exactly, yeah. 

Claire: So anyway.

Joy: I always think ho w- I don’t know if it’s a taking for granted thing because I know people come here for the skiing, and I always feel so bad that I’m like I wish I skied more. But there’s the thing I always think about is how bad traffic is. Totally you’d have to take days off and go during a weekday, which is fine and I could do that. I guess it’s just that I’m not motivated enough to do it. But I remember when I was in my 20’s, I dated this guy that worked at Vail, so we would go skiing there all the time. He would take me on these crazy runs. And a few times I went on a black diamond where I though I was going to die. I was like, “What am I doing?” Because it wasn’t like I was a pro skier. I know how to ski pretty well, but it was very – the things you do for love, you know. The things you do for love.

Claire: For real. And my equation to the things you do for love is reversed because Brandon the thing he does for love is ski slowly with me. 

Joy: [laughing] It’s so nice. So what made you guys decide to take a trip?

Claire: We just needed to get out of dodge. I didn’t want to deal with the –

Joy: I mean, you don’t have to explain that part, but was there something where all of the sudden out of the blue you guys were like, oh my gosh, we need to go somewhere.

Claire: No, we’ve had this trip planned for a couple of months actually. We put it on the books probably back in late December, early January. And we were just like, we’re going to book this on VRBO. They have a pretty good COVID cancellation policy. And we’re just going to feel it out and see how it feels as we get closer. And I had done that with a trip to California that I was going to take in December, and the closer I got the more I was like this isn’t responsible or safe for me to go to California. It would have been the second week of December. I was like, okay, I’ve already had the experience of booking a trip a couple months out and getting to that point and being like, nope, this isn’t safe. But this one is very much the opposite. Now that vaccines have begun rolling out, the cases in Colorado have gone down dramatically.

Joy: Dramatically, yeah.

Claire: And the state is just very, very slowly – and it’s county by country for the most part, but most of the really intense tight regulations have started to ease off a little bit. And it’s interesting, you were talking about being in Westcliff where it’s a lot more rural and everything that goes along with that in terms of the politics of the area. Durango is also pretty rural, although it’s also known for being this big outdoorsman town. There’s this organic coop we went to yesterday. There’s a college here. It’s interesting because it’s surrounded by all of these very rural, conservative, small-ish towns, but then Durango itself is a little bit more liberal, although still very much has its roots in, I believe, mining. I should look that up, why Durango was formed. But people have yard signs all over town that say like, “Support public health. Wear your mask.” Instead of the Biden yard sign, you have a “wear your mask” yard sign. It’s just so interesting, too, like we were talking about last week, it’s so different from town to town and we really take for granted the bubble we live in. Everyone’s like, “Yeah, of course I wear my mask. What’s the big deal?” And so being here and going out, it’s a big deal. People have had to literally put their flag in the sand and say, “No, I’m wearing a mask.” But I’m excited to be down here. We love this part of the state. If it weren’t so isolated, I think we would live here one day. Okay, well, in case you were wondering, Durango was founded because the Denver and Rio Grande Railway. However, I’m not really clear exactly what the point of it. Was it a mining town? Santa Monica Mining District. Also a ton of indigenous history here. Mesa Verde is really close by, which if you guys aren’t familiar with that, it’s this really cool, ancient cave dwelling. It’s actually not that ancient. It was inhabited until around 1200, and it was inhabited for thousands of years in these pueblo cave dwellings, very cool.

Joy: Anyone have questions about Colorado, just let us know. We’re not historians, but we can tell you some things about it.

Claire: I can Google it and say it out loud instead of you Googling it and reading it.

Joy: Right, we can do that for you, we sure can do that for you.

Claire: We are here for you.

Joy: I want to go to Durango, and I also want to go to Telluride.

Claire: Have you not been to Telluride?

Joy: No.

Claire: [gasps] We have to do a trip to Telluride. Oh my gosh, that’s going to be our next trip.

Joy: I just think of the Tim McGraw song, “Telluride.”

Claire: I’m unfamiliar with that song, but Telluride –

Joy: [gasps] It’s a great song, it’s a great song.

Claire: I can’t believe Scott’s never gone to Telluride with you before. It’s so cute.

Joy: Oh, I think he’s been there, but not with me.

Claire: I love it because it’s very bougie western. 

Joy: How do you compare it to Vail?

Claire: It’s more Wild West than Vail.

Joy: I was going to say, more western Wild West than Vail, which is bougie.

Claire: By far.

Joy: Boug. Vail’s boug.

Claire: Okay. So Brandon and I always talk about this. Vail is like the town where you go that’s full of people who want you to know how much money they have. Aspen is where you go that’s full of people who have so much money that they don’t care whether or not you know it.

Joy: Yeah, exactly. Aspen’s like a whole different chapter of rich.

Claire: Yes, Vail is bougie, but it’s actually more – and wealthy for sure – but it’s show off wealthy.

Joy: Showy wealthy versus Aspen’s like they have so much money that they’re like we’re here –

Claire: They’re like I’m wearing sweatpants to go skiing and I don’t even care.

Joy: And they’re like, “We’re here,” period. That’s really all you need to know is if you live in Aspen, that’s all you need to know.

Claire: Yes. Those people don’t live there. They own their 15-million-dollar ski chalet second home.

Joy: Right, I always think of Goldie Hawn and those people.

Claire: Yes, like Tom Cruise has a house in Aspen.

Joy: All of them. Mariah Carey.

Claire: The A-listers. Yes, literally.

Joy: Mariah Carey with her outfits that are all, you know, the ski suits that only she can wear. 

Claire: Where it’s like white spandex with a big, fur coat.

Joy: Yes, big fluffy fur. I love it. I want that life. I really do.

Claire: I know, it’s so great. But that’s the thing is even the fluffy furs are usually over the top for Aspen. But Telluride is a lot more horse ranch kind of style. Not to say that it’s full of horse ranches but it’s more of that vibe. But it’s beautiful, and there’s a gondola that you can take for free out of the town center to the top of the mountain and back down, and it’s just so gorgeous and lovely. And they have, if you go in the summer, there’s this beautiful waterfall you can hike to and they have this amazing blue grass festival. They have the Telluride Film Festival. 

Joy: Yeah, let’s take a Joy and Claire trip there.

Claire: If Visit Telluride is looking for a spokesperson. As you can see, I’m well qualified.

Joy: Look no further. 

Claire: There’s also this great thing in Telluride called the Telluride Free Box. I don’t know if they’re still doing it in COVID, but it’s exactly what it sounds like. Imagine a tiny free library, except full of anything you can think of. Like it’s on the side of this building, and it’s just massive bookshelf basically filled with piles of random – like, okay, you guys know our friend Jess. Jess lives in this part, and in her neighborhood, they have an alleyway. They call it the “magic alley.” If you put things out in the alleyway, within an hour they’re gone. Not because the trash came and picked them up, but because someone came and took them away.

Joy: The magic alley.

Claire: So this is the free box. If you want to get rid of something, you just go put it next to the free box and someone will come get it. It’s nice stuff a lot of the time too. Some of it is trash, but it’s hilarious. Back in my rafting days, I got an ammo can, which is like a water tight metal box that you use. They used to fill it with ammo, and that’s why it had to be water tight, but it’s also used for rafting now. You can put your supplies in there. Very fun. Highly recommend Telluride.

Joy: Yeah, but I’d also love to hear the crazy things people gave away or got for free from like a magic alley. I always use this app called Let Go whenever I just want to give something away and I don’t want to take it anywhere. I just want someone to come pick it up.

Claire: I just want to get rid of this.

Joy: Yeah. I always use Let Go, and I swear to you, I haven’t had a lot of luck selling things on there because it’s really saturated, but any time you just need to give something away for free it’s gone within five minutes and it’s the best. I’ve given away huge pieces of furniture where I’m like, I’m not going to sell this, someone please take it away. It’s the best. Okay, I want to read an email really quick. But I also want to talk about bougie things. So let me talk about bougie things first because I watched the Billie Eilish documentary this weekend. It’s on Apple TV. It’s amazing. I have to be careful with watching things like this because I fall very quickly into the comparison trap and I just get very depressed. It’s kind of the same thing with the Kardashians. Any type of reality show where they’re so darn rich, I can’t separate my life from their life, and I’m like what am I even doing with my life. And not to mention I was in a really bad mood on Friday anyway. I was like, “Why am I doing this? What am I doing with my life?” She got famous and loaded when she was 14-15. She’s 19 now. It’s just insane how successful her and her brother were. But it’s an amazing documentary, it’s really well done. Her family is so cute. Her mom is adorable. Her dad is the cutest dad in the world. I love their family. They’re really, really good people, but I was just in this very pity party. It got me really bummed out because I’m like, “What am I even doing? I’m 43, what am I even doing with my life?” And then I just needed to go do something else. It’s great. It’s great if that stuff doesn’t affect you, but I tend to get super comparison trap when I watch those things.

Claire: That’s how I felt when I was watching the Mars rover landing that everyone was like, “Oh my gosh, we did it,” and I was like, “Oh, I just found an email that had a typo in the subject line” that went to 25,000 people. Cool, I’m so glad you were able to send a rover into space and after nine months of flying through space it landed exactly where you wanted it to and began taking pictures of Mars. I just put two r’s in the word “journal.”

Joy: Yeah, it’s kind of like the Tom Brady thing where he’s been in, whatever, ten Superbowls, and I was playing with Legos last weekend. So you know, we just need to be satisfied with our lives somehow. But that is way too in our face comparison trap material if we want it.

Claire: It’s so funny to me that you – not funny to me. The irony of you being so affected by celebrity reality is that you also love celebrity culture so much.

Joy: I also love celebrity culture. It’s almost like picking at a scab type of thing where I’m just like, I love it so much but it pains me sometimes because I just get so like – but here’s the other thing. I also am projecting this perfect life that they don’t have. Nobody has a perfect life. But because I was also in a really bad mood on Friday, I just needed to project some crap that wasn’t real where I’m like, “They live this perfect life, and she gets to travel the world.” Everyone’s got their crap.

Claire: I can’t imagine being that famous at 15.

Joy: At that young, right.

Claire: Imagine, even at 19. We can barely handle it when someone gives us a negative review on iTunes.

Joy: Oh my gosh, yeah.

Claire: And we’re grown ass women.

Joy: Exactly, and I think that’s very prevalent in this documentary of how hard she is on herself. She’s so hard on herself where I’m like, oh poor thing. There were shows where she wouldn’t go out because she was like, “It’s not perfect” or “This is going to look dumb” or “People are going to make fun of me.” Or she always questions, “Why do people like me?” It’s really interesting because that self-worth thing where you can see her, not immaturity, but she’s young so kind of growing that confidence is not just grown overnight just because you become famous. But it’s a good documentary, check it out. I was just in a really bad mood. And my bad mood was mostly work related because I was just like, whatever, I had a bad day. Okay, let’s move on to an email because someone wrote us an email. Ryan. And the subject line is, “Not Political Enough Friendly Email.” Thank you because we can’t handle negative things.

Claire: Unlike Billie Eilish at age 15. Adults. Zero negative feedback.

Joy: God, we can’t take it, we just can’t. “Hi Joy and Claire, love the podcast. Personally I don’t think you both talk about politics enough. Is it political to say, ‘Don’t drink and drive. You might kill someone.’ But, ‘Wear a mask so you don’t kill someone,” that’s political? Anyways, here’s my dilemma, not sure if you have any thoughts. I live in California. Figure in the next six months vaccines are likely. I would like to get back to a CrossFit style gym. I say CrossFit style because I’m kind of burned out on the brand, but that is not a total deal breaker. A lot of gyms have closed their doors permanently, and many of the gyms that are left have been cheating the whole time. I don’t really want” – and I’m assuming cheating by letting people in, whatever – “I don’t really want to give my money to a business that has been spreading the virus. Half a million dead people in a year is insane. I’m not really sure how to find a gym once things start to get back to normal. Many of my CrossFit friends don’t really believe in germs or science or maybe that chalk kills the virus.” What, mmkay. “I really hope as things get back to normal, a lot of garage gyms open and we kind of start over. I think that’s my best hope. Any thoughts or ideas on how to find a new gym?” Um, first of all, CrossFit friends who don’t believe in science or germs, you need to get rid of those friends.

Claire: Git.

Joy: Git.

Claire: It’s been a while since we pulled out the, “Git.”

Joy: That came from an episode of Girls Gone WOD by the way. When we were talking with Natalia and Lisa about eating disorders.

Claire: In the early days.

Joy: Early days, yeah.

Claire: I think just like any gym, this is my number one piece of advice for any time you’re trying to find a new CrossFit gym, and it’s look at the pictures on their social media. Go look at the blog on their site. If they have been asking people to wear a mask and people have actually been compliant and they have been taking it seriously, then they’ll most likely have photos of that in their social media and most likely have at least one blog post about it that says, “Hey, this is important. Don’t forget.” As a reminder. The gym I go to, CrossFit Roots, recently made a post, and they haven’t been posting. They don’t go every single day posting, “Don’t forget, wear your masks.” People just do it and they’re good about it. And you’ll be in class and yeah, if you’re gasping for air somebody might pull down their mask for two breaths and then pull it back up, which is you know.

Joy: That’s pretty normal.

Claire: But if somebody has their mask pulled down for an entire round, the coach is going to go up to them and say, “Put your mask back on. If you need to take a break, the doors are always open. You’re welcome to walk outside and pull your mask down and breath our for 30 seconds” or whatever. They posted a post recently on Instagram that was a picture of somebody doing a front squat or something in a mask, and it was like, “Hey, thank you guys so much for wearing masks indoors and not complaining. We’re almost there.” Kind of like, none of us have enjoyed this and you don’t have to pretend it’s been a fun carnival ride to wear your mask indoors. But at the same time, we’ve done what we needed to do to keep each other safe, to keep the business open. And in Colorado, that’s been the other big thing is if you allow people into your business without wearing masks, you as the business are the one that’s penalized, not the person wearing the mask. So the onus is on you as the business to enforce it. So it’s like, hey, thank you for letting us maintain our business throughout this safely. And I’ve seen that from other gyms as well who have been doing a good job with that. So I would really just start there. And then the other thing that I would do is when you are reaching out, I would say, “Hey, I have a few questions. Tell me about your thought processes around scaling. Tell me about you thought processes around body composition.” Maybe kind of a health at every size. And then, “Tell me about how you kept your members safe in 2020.” And maybe you want to write that in an email, or maybe you ask it to them the first day that you go to do a drop in. But those are the three questions that I would ask of any CrossFit gym, and I think how they answer that – if you’re like, “Tell me how you kept your members safe in 2020,” and they’re like, “Oh, you know, we kind of left it up to each individual to make their decision,” that’s code for we didn’t see a reason to uphold that. And especially California, I think –

Joy: I mean, in California –

Claire: In California – a couple of weeks ago we talked about how in every state and every county the rules have been different. In some gyms, you aren’t required to have people wearing masks. Or maybe it’s more about a capacity thing or working out outdoors thing, but in California it’s been really strict. The lines are pretty clear there about were you taking – I think it just has to go along with what you believe to be true, and I think in California more than anywhere else we’ve heard a lot of people being like, “This was taken over the top. Businesses should have been allowed to open. Every other state was doing it,” blah blah blah. But what felt reasonable to you, what would have felt reasonable to you, and uphold that gym to that standard. 

Joy: I also like to call out The OUT Foundation and OUT Athletics because a lot of times when they are hosting events, I think that is also a sign that the gym is inclusive. And not to say that’s the only thing, but go on The OUT Foundation or OUT Athletics and see if that gym has hosted an event or if they’re affiliated with them in any way because I feel like that is also a sign of being an inclusive space, which we really need to pay attention to that too. Quick, I have another email.

Claire: Oh you do?

Joy: Because I asked about Texas, and EJ wrote in. Our listener EJ says, “Hi Joy and Claire. On your most recent episode, you asked about folks in Texas. I thought I’d reach out and share my experience. I currently live in Houston, Texas and was very lucky to have power throughout the storm. I lost water about two days when the city shut off water due to the many main breaks that were occurring. All things considered, I was extremely lucky. I work through AmeriCorps at the non-profit called SBT. We are in the field of disaster recovery construction. Here in Houston we are still helping people recover from Hurricane Harvey. Many of our previous clients experienced burst pipes that caused a lot of damage. We’ve been going back to their houses to remove wet drywall and insulation, flooring that was damaged, cabinets and plumbing that burst. Because so many other people are experiencing plumbing issues, finding supplies and materials to help fix pipes is really hard. I forwarded the newsletter my company sent out recently. It deals the work we’ve been doing in response to winter storm Uri and includes ways people can donate to our efforts if they like. Cheers, EJ.” So I’m going to post these resources on our show notes here, if you want to check those out. So look for the show notes in this episode post, and thank you for sending that EJ.

Claire: Hi, EJ.

Joy: Hi, EJ. 

Claire: Okay, one other quick thing that I wanted, and I’m putting you on the spot here. Are we going to go to the CrossFit Games this year?

Joy: Woah.

Claire: I know. Kelly – hi, Kelly – was sending me messages about it. And she was like, “Do you think you guys are going to go? I may or may not have a friend who’s waiting to decide whether to go until she finds out if you’re going to go.”

Joy: Oh wow.

Claire: Tickets are on sale.

Joy: When are they? Is it summer again?

Claire: Yeah, it’s in August. It’s outdoors in August. It would be ideal to do that.

Joy: I would love to go. I think I’d love to go.

Claire: I’d love to go.

Joy: I mean, I’d go anywhere right now. I’m just dying to go somewhere. I want to go to Arizona. I want to go to Hawaii. Anything that feels like a normalcy thing, sign me up. Sign me up.

Claire: We’re going to need to take – not just need to, but want to take every opportunity possible to go to Madison and see Brandon’s family this year. Because we haven’t seen Evie since –

Joy: They haven’t?

Claire: No. She was able to walk.

Joy: Oh, I was going to say.

Claire: Not ever. Brandon’s mom has only seen her twice in her life. 

Joy: Oh my gosh, they’re dying.

Claire: The last time they saw her was over a year ago. 

Joy: Oh they’re dying.

Claire: We went to Wisconsin in January of 2020. I know. So we need to go to Madison like ten times this year. As soon as Brandon’s family is all vaccinated. So you heard it first guys. We are going to try to make to the CrossFit Games.

Joy: We are going to try to make the CrossFit Games work. Yes, please, and thank you.

Claire: We’re going to go to Gray’s one hundred times. 

Joy: [sigh] That was a really creepy sound. [laughing] That was a little sexual, I apologize. On the iPhone it has this feature now where you see memories of photos, like you can customize your – and I see Gray’s, Madison, our trip to Iceland, our trip to LA. Which by the way, we hit the anniversary of a year last week and I was like, I’m just going to not talk today because that was a moment. But if you want to go to the CrossFit Games this year and it’s safe for you and safe for your family, I think that we want to try and make that happen. And maybe we should try to talk to the new CEO guy. He’s in Boulder.

Claire: He’s in Boulder. 

Joy: Let’s give it a try and just be like, “What’s going on? We’re a little salty in some areas. Can you talk to us about that?”

Claire: Listen, if you want to get people back on board, ours is the podcast to go to. 

Joy: For sure. And maybe we’ll even release it on the Girls Gone WOD feed too, so anybody who didn’t jump ship.

Claire: We are really putting the cart before the horse here on this idea. You know, I’m sure we can make that happen. I’m not sure, but I’d like to think we could.

Joy: I’d like to think we could.

Claire: Okay guys, this week we asked you for some random questions. I love all these random questions that you have because sometimes you ask them, and I’m like, oh have we never talked about that. For example, “How did you meet your husbands?”

Joy: Oh okay. I’ll go first. I knew Scott for years. Scott and I kind of ran in the same crowd, if you will. We had a very similar group of friends that kind of overlapped, so whenever I was at parties he’d be at parties. So I would always see him. His friend was a DDA, so I always saw his best friend at work. And he’s kind of be like, “You should go out with Scott.” Everyone would always be like, “You should go out with Scott.” And at the time, I was always dating – I mean, I was in the prime of my dating years where I was just dating, dating, dating, and he was dating people. So whenever we saw each other at parties, we’d just be like, ‘Oh hey.” Wasn’t super, I don’ know, wasn’t very apparent that either of us were interested at the time. So it was like, okay, well fine, if he wants to go out with me he should call me. So finally we were both at this, it was probably two years later, and I remember my best friend went with me to this engagement party for our mutual friends, and Scott was there. I remember telling my friend Melanie, “If Scott’s there, I think I’m going to talk to this guy.” And it was just out of the blue thinking, I’ve been through so many bad dates and bad people, I should try to date this guy because everyone’s been saying it for years we should date, blah blah blah. So finally we go to this engagement party, and he and I started talking. The moment that I remember thinking, “He’s such a good guy,” and this goes to the gift giving is he gave the engagement couple – first of all, nobody brought an engagement gift to these people. It was just a party. The groom is from Venezuela, so he brought this Venezuelan artist, a record of Venezuelan music, to Miguel as a present for their engagement party.

Claire: That’s just Scott.

Joy: And I remember thinking, “What a thoughtful guy. Who does that?” And so we started talking. He was going to Arizona for work that week, so he was talking about Arizona. And he was like, “I want to know where to go eat,” blah blah blah. Just trying to strike up a conversation. So I gave him my number and I was like, “Yeah call me.” So we just started talking, went on a date. Our first date was, and I will never forget it because the next day I went to see my nephew who had just been born, it was Memorial Day weekend of 2006 was the weekend that we had our first day. We went to Body Worlds, if anybody remembers. Body Worlds?

Claire: That would be a weird first date.

Joy: Oh, it was so weird. He called me and he goes, “I know this is really weird, but would you want to go to Body World?” Because it’s not an exhibit that comes through town very often.

Claire: So I went to Body Worlds in 2006 as a field trip with my high school anatomy class.

Joy: Oh Lord, yeah, yeah.

Claire: Because the weekend that you and Scott had your first date was the weekend that I graduated from high school. 

Joy: Yep, and that’s the age gap right there. It’s so good. So yeah, we went to Body Worlds, and then we went to get a drink, and then we went to dinner a lot later because he’s like, “Let’s just go get a drink after Body Worlds. Let’s not eat right away because I don’t know if we’re all going to feel like eating after that.” And so, yeah, it was a really nice long date.

Claire: Because the whole room smells like formaldehyde. 

Joy: Yes. He’s like, “Let’s go get some drinks before we decide if we want to go have dinner.” Yeah, and then the next day I flew to South Carolina where my brother was living at the time. My mom picked me up, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to marry this guy.” She was like, “What?” Because at the time I was the eternal single girl. My family was like, “Yeah, we’re giving up on Joy. She’s never going to get married.” I’m not kidding. So my sister-in-law and my mom were like, “You’ve got to be kidding me.” So that’s how we met, and then we just kept dating each other and we were like, we just want to keep hanging out, and we eventually got engaged in Hawaii.

Claire: And here you are still hanging out.

Joy: And here we are hanging out still liking each other.

Claire: So that, then, the follow up question, which is, “When did you know that you were in love with your partner?’

Joy: Let’s see. So I kind of went back and forth because I was very young and scared. I was very anti-relationships. Not that I didn’t want to get into a relationship, but I was weird. I was very scared and hesitant and skeptical of relationships, of really serious relationships. So I remember Scott and I took a trip to Arizona three months after we started dating, and I was like, “I don’t know if I can go. This is too serious to me.” To take a trip with him, that was freaking me out. But I think after that trip, seeing how, not that I needed a caretaker, but how he takes care of things and was just so kind to me and so thoughtful and kind of let me be me instead of trying to change me. Like if I was freaking out about the trip, he was like, “Do you want to go or not?” He just didn’t get too crazy about it. 

Claire: He didn’t get caught up in –

Joy: No, he didn’t get caught up in that. And I think that’s when I was like – I wasn’t sure if I was super in love. I was just more of, I want to keep hanging –

Claire: Not like a clap of thunder.

Joy: No, no, no. More of I just really want to be with him. I always want to be with him. I don’t want to not be with him was kind of how I was –

Claire: Okay, follow up question about Scott that just came in.

Joy: Oh great.

Claire: And then I’ll tell my story. What does Scott do for a living, and how’s he dealing with the pandemic since he used to travel so much?

Joy: Yeah. This is a great question. Scott would be so honored to know people are interested in him.

Claire: Which by the way, Scott is going to be starting his own podcast potentially. I don’t want to release any news too early, but he’s been talking about wanting to start his own podcast. Send us in some encouragement for Scott.

Joy: Yeah, please send in encouragement. He’s so cute, and I know it was very vulnerable of him to tell me, the podcast queen for the past eight years. He just casually let it out last week. He was like, “Yeah, Me, Collin, and Wakeen” – these are his BFF’s – “are going to start a podcast and it’s going to be about” – I’ll save the details for later. But I’m like, “That’s great,” and I was super encouraging because I know that was a big deal for him to tell me. But I’m like, “I’ll edit it for you if you want me to.” Yeah, super cute. And then he started talking about playing music, and I’m like, “You can’t play music on a podcast,” and he’s like, “I looked it up. You can play 20 seconds of music.” I’m like, Sandy. Where is Sandy? Why can’t we play – I’m like Sandy.

Claire: Sandy said no.

Joy: No. I’m going to let him deal with his own legal issues.

Claire: He can’t have that, Sandy.

Joy: You need to talk to him, Sandy, about that. What does Scott do for a living? He works for a company, and he’s worked for this company since I’ve been dating him, so he’s been with them for quite some time. It’s a company called Black Baud, and it is a non-profit fundraising. So it’s a public company, but they do fundraising software and fundraising consultation for non-profits, higher education, so basically anyone that does fundraising type of businesses. When I was dating him, he was working with a lot of non-profits and he would travel there, designing a lot of their software that they would need to make money. And now he’s working with higher education. He works with a lot of really big schools to help with their donors and alumni donations. He loves it. He’s really good at it. It takes a lot of being really good with people and explaining things, and he’s just really good at his job. So he works for them. He’s been doing it for a long time. And he’s having a really hard time with the pandemic right now. I’d say a few weeks ago, he and I kind of sat down and he’s like, “I’m just really struggling. I don’t leave the house” because he works from home. And he’s like “I just need” – I can tell when I come home from work, he’s like, “I need to go somewhere.” He’s like, “Do you need anything done. I just need to go somewhere. I need to do something. I don’t care if it’s going to get the car washed, go to Target.” Like we were kind of joking last week about how couples with no kids are bored. That’s how he is. But it’s just in a way where he’s struggling because he, like many others, don’t know when they’re going to get the vaccine, and he just feels really strongly about not traveling and not going places without the vaccine. I think he’s just in a place where he wants this to be over, like everyone. But for Scott to actually say that is when I know it’s really bugging him.

Claire: And I think even with kids, even with not being bored, I still feel that way, that I just need to get out of the house. I’ve been really working on, I think I talked about this last week or two weeks ago, that I’ve been getting to the gym almost every day, which is a huge departure from October, November, December when I didn’t work out at all. The just act of getting out of the house has made an unbelievable impact on my mental health, beyond what I could have imagined. Thinking about how I was feeling in November and December and even January versus how I’m feeling now is night and day, and the only change I’ve made is that I get out of the house every day and go to the gym. And again, for me, I feel safe there. Everyone’s wearing masks.

Joy: Right, everyone’s taking precautions

Claire: It doesn’t add stress for me to be there, which is a huge part of it. But I’m around other people. I’m seeing a lot of the same people every day. Just that small act of being around a group of people every day has made a huge difference. And it also has made me think a lot about the different reasons throughout the last – because I’m coming up on nine years of CrossFit this month.

Joy: Wow.

Claire: I know. And it’s made me think about all the different reasons that I’ve kept coming back to CrossFit, and really at the end of the day it’s always been about the people. On Friday, I worked out every day that week, and I was like, “Oh, I should take a rest day.” But I was like, “No, I want to go.” And I realized five years ago or eight years ago, I would have been like, “No, I want to go. I’ve got to make my gains.” And now I’m like, “No, I want to go. I have to get out of the house.”

Joy: I have to get out of the house, right.

Claire: So I went, and I walked up to the coach and I was like – it was kettlebell swings – I was like, “I’m not going to do Russian kettlebell swings. I’m not going to go overhead. I’m going to go lighter on this, and I’m going to go slower on that.” I’m not here to make gains. I’m not here to PR.

Joy: Or do the RX workout. You just need to move, and you need to be around people.

Claire: I just need to get out of the house. I just need a good excuse to get out of the house for something structured, and that is my only goal. So when I get there, it’s like, I’m not going to do a bunch of heavy weights. I’m exhausted and my body is tired, but that’s not the point. I think it’s just so interesting to really recognize that evolution in how I’ve been thinking about CrossFit, and also really truly being at a point where I don’t care what my time is or what my weights are. I really don’t. Because the goal for me is truly just to be there. And once I’m there, I’ve accomplished what I’ve set out to do. And it’s not even a goal, because it’s not like I’m striving, “I have to do five days a week” or whatever. I’m doing this just for the sake of doing it.

Joy: Exactly. Scott’s been doing the same thing. That does help him. He goes to Orange Theory and he works out. Getting out of the house once a day is really important for him. Like last night he spent a good chunk of time at his best friend’s house. That’s someone he feels comfortable going to see. It’s like the only person he goes to see. But those are things, just getting out of the house especially if you work from home, is so huge. So huge. And being around people, not going to the grocery store. Being around people.

Claire: No, being around people you know. Okay, so I’ll talk about Brandon. So Brandon and I met the summer after college. It was 2010. I was 22, and we were both living in Moab. I was working for a rafting company, a non-profit rafting company that did trips for folks with disabilities. Which by the way, rafting is such a cool, accessible outdoor sport because on a raft you can pack anything that you can pack in a car basically. You have a cooler, so you can keep medication refrigerated. You can bring a generator if you need something really badly to be – if you need a CPAP or something. You can put your wheelchair on the back. I have taken people who are quadriplegic down the river. It’s so cool. Really accessible in a true kind of wilderness area way that is usually not accessible to people with disabilities, particularly people with physical disabilities. The non-profit I worked for, it was called Splore. And they have since been adopted… absorbed…

Joy: Acquired.

Claire: Acquired, thank you. Absorbed, that’s like an amoeba. Acquired, I guess, by the National Center for Disabled Sports. Is that what it’s called, out of Salt Lake City? Anyway, very cool. Highly recommend if you’re looking for a cool place to donate, they’re very fun. The point of this story is that I had a friend coming to visit me in Moab, and Brandon worked at the one shop in town where you as just a random lay person could rent a raft. So she and I went there and rented a ducky, which is an inflatable kayak, and he’s the guy who helped us, who brought the ducky out to the car. I thought he was really cute, and he had a NOLS t-shirt on. Which NOLS is the National Outdoor Leadership School. If you guys are unfamiliar, it’s very similar to Outward Bound. I had done a NOLS course the previous summer where I spent a month in the Yukon doing canoeing and backpacking. And he had done a NOLS course a few years prior doing some glacier travel in Alaska. So we kind of struck up a conversation about NOLS, and I just thought he was really cute. A couple days later was driving down Main Street – Moab just has one main street – driving down Main Street, and I saw him standing out in the parking lot. I was driving with my two other girlfriends who I worked with, and I was like, “Oh, that’s the guy. That’s the cute guy.” They were like, “Do you want to go say hi to him?” We were on our way to lunch or something, and I was like, “We’ll go back after lunch.” We went back, and he wasn’t there. So I went inside, and I was like, well maybe he’s inside. So I went inside and the lady at the counter was like, “Can I help you?” I was like – 

Joy: Who’s the cute guy?

Claire: “Is he coming back?” And she’s like, “Yeah, he just went for lunch.” I was like, okay. So I came back after noon. And little did I know that she had told him, “Some girl was looking for you.” So when I got there, he totally knew what I was doing. He is by far not the person who would go out of his way to talk to a stranger, versus I clearly am. So as I was walking up to him, I was like I don’t have a good cover story for this. So I turned to him and I was like, “Hey, I work for the non-profit in town, and we’re looking to get a ducky” – ducky’s the name of the inflatable kayak – “a ducky donated for this fundraiser that we’re doing. How much do these cost?” And he was like, “I don’t know. I can look into it.” I was like, “No, it’s fine. Anyway, my friend’s having this party tonight if you want to go. Can I get” –

Joy: But were your friends really having a party?

Claire: Oh yes, my friends were actually throwing a party.

Joy: I was like, did you make up a party.

Claire: No. So they were actually having a party. He didn’t end up coming that night, but we ended up just texting. He was leaving for a climbing trip the next day and couldn’t come. But we just ended up hanging out. This was in June or July, or right after July 4th maybe. He and I hung out a couple times, and then we’re kind of dating-ish, and I moved to Vermont at the end of the summer to do an internship with Alpinist magazine. Guys, I was so outdoorsy.

Joy: That sounds great.

Claire: For two years, I was so outdoorsy. It’s this tiny town in Vermont I lived in. If anyone’s like, “Which town?” I lived in Johnson, Vermont, and I worked in Jeffersonville. Tiny town. I didn’t like it there. So Brandon and I kind of did this like, well, we weren’t really fully dating, so were we really broken up. So we really just kept talking so much, and I went, and he then was working as ski patrol at Copper in Colorado. So I went back over Halloween weekend and visited him and that was when we were like, we want to try to make something work. Then I moved to Copper, got a job as a liftie. Also wouldn’t recommend that. 

Joy: You’ve said that so many times. “I didn’t like that job.” 

Claire: It was the worst. I guess looking back things moved pretty fast. And I was just so young. I was 22.

Joy: Yes, so young.

Claire: It’s crazy. Okay. I feel like we’ve been talking about our husbands this entire episode.

Joy: I know, this is the husband episode.

Claire: This is the husband episode. So let’s answer a few more of these cute questions. 

Joy: Okay. And we will answer the rest of them next time. 

Claire: “Have you heard of hot chocolate bombs? And if yes, have you tried them?”

Joy: No, I have not. What are they?

Claire: I have heard of them, but I haven’t tried them but I really want to. I sent this to you. I sent a TikTok about this to you in December. It’s like a chocolate ball that when it melts in your hot milk, it’s full of hot chocolate batter and marshmallows.

Joy: Okay, so it’s almost like a bath bomb but for hot chocolate.

Claire: Exactly, yes. I haven’t tried it, but I really want to. “How do you know when to break up with your therapist?”

Joy: I love this question. I’ll be really brief about it. There’s two things that I want to say. One, do you think it’s time to just stop therapy? Because therapy isn’t forever, and maybe it’s just time to take a break from therapy. Or do you feel like your therapist isn’t – you can also communicate to your therapist that you’re feeling stuck and just say, “I’m feeling like I’m hitting a point where I’m not really getting anything out of this” or “I feel like I’m spinning my wheels in therapy. What do you think?” And if the therapist responds with something that doesn’t sound right to you, whether it just be kind of neutral or they don’t probe you more about why you’re feeling stuck, then maybe you should probe them a little bit more. It’s fine to feel stuck in therapy, but I think sometimes clients feel like therapists are mind readers, and we’re not. So it’s okay to say, “Tell me what our treatment plan is. What do you think my goals are?” Kind of getting a little bit more clear with your therapist of, what’s the plan for this? But also maybe it’s time to take a break from therapy period, and it’s fine to take a break and work on things on your own for a while and take the skills you learned in therapy.

Claire: Okay. “When did you start feeling like a ‘adult’?” For me, it was when I had kids. I feel like that was a clear delineation of, okay, now I am in charge of another person. Any time I have the feeling of, I need to go get somebody, who’s in charge? I’m like, oh, it’s me. I’m in charge.

Joy: You’re in charge, yeah.

Claire: Any time I have that feeling, it gives me a slap in the face of reality check of, you’re the adult here. I’m like, oh crap.

Joy: I love the thing you said a while ago where you’re like – or maybe it was a meme – where at the end of the day, you’re just like, “Oh, who’s going to make dinner? Oh crap, I have to make dinner.”

Claire: Yeah, exactly. When you’re like, “Who’s making dinner?… Oh, it’s me.”

Joy: It’s me. I do the making of the dinners. Okay, my answer is really horrible/a little more funny. The first thing that popped in my head, I’m just going to be honest, is when I started taking medication for my anxiety and depression. That’s when I started feeling like an adult because I didn’t have to deal with my crazy emotions and I was able to focus on actually adulting in life and not freaking out over it. That’s okay too.

Claire: I think that’s great. “What is the best advice you’ve ever received from a mom or maternal figure?” Okay, you guys know mine. I’ve said it like a hundred times. You don’t have to say everything you think. And I think that as I’ve gotten older, I think at the time she meant it as, “Claire, you’re just narrating your stream of consciousness, and it’s driving me crazy.” But as I’ve gotten older, it’s become to me more like think before you speak. And also recently it’s come to mean, not everyone deserves to hear everything that you’re thinking about.

Joy: Yeah, kind of like the Brené Brown. People need to deserve to hear your story.

Claire: Exactly.

Joy: Mine would be, take one day at a time. My mom always told me that. I was a pretty anxious teenager and high schooler. I stressed out so much over tests and straight A’s and competing with my twin brother. And she would always just say, “Take one day at a time.” And I always think of that, the being present, but for a high schooler.

Claire: Okay, “What everyday thing are you most excited to get back to post COVID?”

Joy: Going out to drinks or dinner with my friends. I wouldn’t say that’s an everyday thing. Or just going to the store without having to worry about it. Because right now, I think a lot about the choices I make when I go places. Do I need to go here today? Do I need to make that trip? Because I think on an individual level, if we all think critically about can I consolidate my trips into one trip when I need to do this instead of taking five different trips to different stores. You know what I’m saying? I look forward to not having to plan so much or think about that because I just want to be, right now, very mindful of the trips that I’m taking, that I’m not just going willy nilly anywhere that I want. Or just going to a mall. You know what I really, really can’t wait for? I can’t wait to go to Sephora or Ulta and try products. Because you can’t try products right now. you just have to buy something and hope it works. But I miss having an armful of makeup samples on my whole arm. I just miss it. I miss that.

Claire: That is such a specific thing. For me, I really miss hanging out in coffee shops. Brandon and I would go – my mom would come over to watch the kids, and he and I would just go sit in a coffee shop. Or even by myself. I miss sitting in a coffee shop. And I also miss going to the office. Not everyone, I get that working from home has been great for some people, and it has not been great for me. Okay. Somebody asked, “How is Mom Sandy?” For those of you who don’t know, Mom Sandy lost her husband over the summer.

Joy: Last summer, yeah.

Claire: He had been doing cancer treatment for – it had been about, what? Two years?

Joy: I want to say two years, yeah.

Claire: And she just got a new puppy this week.

Joy: New puppy Clementine.

Claire: Clementine.

Joy: It’s a little bully.

Claire: A little bully. She has already a bully named Winston who is one-eyed Winston. He’s the best. That’s really the big update for Sandy right now. We need to have her on the podcast.

Joy: Yeah, we really do. An update from Mom Sandy. And her Instagram is @beabondgirl, if you want to follow her puppy journeys.

Claire: So cute.

Joy: So cute.

Claire: Okay, let’s do two more. I’ll do this one really quick because I always want to address this when it comes up. “Claire, you shared with us your history of postpartum depression before. What made you realize that you had it?” For me, it was really dramatic. I would say within a week of Miles being born, I knew instinctively that something was wrong, but I couldn’t articulate it and no one around me know – like I didn’t have any other new moms around me who would have been able to say, “Hey, yeah” –

Joy: Like, pinpoint it, yeah.

Claire: To pinpoint it. Because I think in those really early stages, it does take someone who’s recently been postpartum to help identify it. Otherwise, you’re just sitting there saying, “I feel weird. I don’t really know what I’m feeling. I don’t really feel like myself.” And everyone in your life is like, “Yeah, of course that’s how you feel. You just had a baby. It’s normal to not feel like yourself.” But for me it was more than that. I just didn’t know how to articulate it. So I didn’t actually realize this was postpartum depression until I became suicidal. So that was obviously horrible and scary and terrible. And the first day that I started having those types of thoughts, I was like, okay. If anyone listening has ever been in a period of your life where you’re having suicidal thoughts, in those moments you’re not really in your logical, normal brain. The thoughts you’re having obviously are not rational. So for me at least, once I sort of snapped out of that moment, it was like, “Oh, well that was really scary. I need to talk to someone.” And then the moment Brandon got home from work that day, I was like, “Hey, this is what happened, and I need to deal with it.” But if I’m being honest, then I think I had known for weeks before that that something was wrong, and I just didn’t know how to articulate it.

Joy: Right, right. And this was all very new to you too, so you were probably like, “Is this normal? Is this not normal?” You don’t know. You don’t have a frame of reference. The other thing that I’ve heard women talk about that I really encourage is, even if – because I know sometimes your doctor, if you’re going to see your OB or doing some type of checkup with your baby –

Claire: Your six-week postpartum checkup, you have to take the questionnaire.

Joy: You take the questionnaire, and let’s pretend that the questionnaire shows that you don’t have a problem. If you don’t have a high score, but you still feel something’s wrong, it’s okay to ask for help. Don’t rely on one little tool of an assessment because maybe you’re feeling okay that day.

Claire: And I would also say that the questions on that assessment are really hard because it’s like, “Have you been losing sleep lately? Have you been able to do everything you’ve always enjoyed doing?”

Joy: And you’re like, “No, I have a child. I have a newborn.”

Claire: No. Yeah, it’s like, “How’s your appetite?” I don’t know, I’m freaking breastfeeding. The questions on there –

Joy: Are for a normal human, not someone who just had a newborn. And so I think that that is not something to take with a, oh I guess I’m okay if this questionnaire says I’m okay. Please do not use that as your reference tool.

Claire: My questionnaire even said I wasn’t okay, and my doctor was like, “How are you feeling?” And I was like, “I don’t know, I guess I’m feeling okay.” “Okay.”

Joy: Right. No other follow-up questions. And here’s the thing, medical doctors, great. But they sometimes don’t always have the best training or tools to know what questions to ask for behavioral health. It’s just not in their training.

Claire: So I would say if you are a new mom or you have a new mom in your life and you’re worried about yourself or someone else in your life, the number one thing that I felt myself and that I have seen in other moms who have had both PPD and PPA – that’s anxiety – is this very deep-seeded feeling of I am not myself and I don’t see a path back to myself. That this isn’t right and it’s never going to get better. And that’s the feeling and the belief is that when you are a new mom, you have these moments of overwhelm, but having experienced postpartum depression with Miles and not with Evie, the difference was that with Evie I always could see the way out. I always could see that this is temporary. I know that this is a phase. I know that this is just the moment that I’m in. With Miles, I truly couldn’t see that. I truly had this belief that this is hard. This is not what I signed up for, and it’s never going to get any easier. It’s always going to be like this. 

Joy: Right, right.

Claire: And it was that sense of crushing finality that really is what –

Joy: Very much a doom, yeah.

Claire: And I’ve heard that a lot with people who would then go on to be diagnosed with postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. This moment is terrible, and all my moments from now on are going to be like this. Not like, this moment is terrible and it’s going to pass. Okay, that was a little bit darker than I expected one of our last questions to be.

Joy: Yeah. “Upper lip hair removal suggestions. I feel 15 using some crazy mini scissors.” Yes, please don’t use mini scissors. If you haven’t yet found the Tinkle razors on Amazon, that’s what I use. Tinkle. I remember Paleo OMG was on our show and she talked about them, and I was like, “Tinkle?” They’re called Tinkle, and they’re great. They’re just little mini razors. It feels like when I used to do, what was it called? Microplane? Dermaplane? I’m looking at you like, “When did I get?” Yeah, when I did dermaplane, it kind of feels like that same razor where you just have to be careful because if you push too hard it leaves little razor marks on your face. But yes, Tinkle razors are the best.

Claire: So let’s do one more quick fun question, and then there are some other questions in here that I really want to answer next time. Like, “Does having kids completely change you?” I want to talk about that, but I’m not going to get to it this week.

Joy: Sure.

Claire: This one also is a great question for next time. “What’s a cult that you would join?”

Joy: Oh. I kind of wanted to make up a cult and be funny about it, but I was like, no, I actually should just think about an actual cult that I would join. 

Claire: And then another question for next time maybe, “How do you just move on from politics of 2020?”

Joy: How do you?

Claire: How do you? Let’s answer this one. “Favorite 3-4-day trips in April or May?”

Joy: Palm Springs. I don’t know why, but I’m dying to go to Palm Springs. Where did we go? Venice. Venice is great. Venice, California. Scottsdale, Arizona is really fun, somewhat warm. I don’t know, pick a beach. San Diego, San Diego’s another great one.

Claire: Yeah, Southern California, it’s so nice that time of year. I would say Southern California or I would love to go to Mexico. That would be great. Kind of a Spring Break Mexico trip. That would be lovely.

Joy: For sure.

Claire: Somebody asked me this on my Instagram yesterday, “What trip” – and I know the answer to this is Venice – “apart from Southern California, what do you look for in a dream vacation?”

Joy: Beaches. Sun. I don’t like to pack a lot, so I just want to be able to throw – that’s why I love going to Kona. Someone asked about where to go, Hawaii suggestions, so we can also address that in a future episode. But I just love vacations where you don’t have to stress about packing. I think a lot of us do. So if I can just pack bathing suits, shorts, t-shirts, flip flops, that is what I’m looking for. I don’t like to think about outfit planning. I’m not that type of person that lays out the outfits for the week. I just want to throw a bunch of crap together that I know I can just rotate and recycle. I also like access to a laundry machine, so if we have a house that we’re in, I love clean clothes.

Claire: It’s all about packing. 

Joy: It’s really all about packing, but I’m also the beach-type of vacations. That’s why I think I loved our trips that we did as a group because it was already planned for us. I love going somewhere where I don’t have to worry too much about what are we doing today, what are we doing today. I don’t want to plan stuff. I just want to have an idea of going to a beach and relaxing. 

Claire: And I’m on either extreme. Either I look for a trip that’s like backpacking, outdoors trip where I have to pack every single thing I’m going to need.

Joy: Including food and utensils.

Claire: Food, water, every single thing, I have to bring it on my back.

Joy: Oh, that would stress me out.

Claire: I mean, it’s stressful to be honest. Or, like you said, where basically I just show up with a swimsuit and a hoodie, and I’m like, “What are we doing today?”

Joy: If I can just do one pair of flip flops, I’m in.

Claire: Or the other thing that I look for in a trip is access to a lot of food.

Joy: Like buffets and different restaurants, yeah.

Claire: Like different types of cuisine.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Alright guys, well thank you for hanging out this week. I’m going to go outside in the great outdoors.

Joy: Go and enjoy. Thanks you guys for hanging with us another episode. You know where to find us on social. @joyandclaire_ on Instagram. This is Joy and Claire on Facebook. And please share with a friend. Support the podcast by sharing, and sharing is caring. Love you guys. Stay safe. Talk to you next week.

Claire: Talk to you next week. Bye.

Joy: Bye.

Hot doctors, anesthesia stories, side-parts, diets over the years, and a reminder that we cannot police the world or the internet.


instagram: joyandclaire_

This is Joy & Claire Episode 63: Parts

Episode Date: February 25, 2021

Audio Length: 50:58 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. We have new microphones. Do we sound so great? I was almost going to sing a Mariah Carey song, and then I was like, no I can’t do that.

Claire: No, Sandy would get mad. I know, it’s so fancy.

Joy: You know, this is what happens when you’ve been podcasting for eight years. You get new equipment.

Claire: You get a new microphone one time. Although Miles came in and he was like, “What is that?” Because our old ones made us look like air traffic controllers, and these ones actually make you feel like you’re in an old-time radio station.

Joy: Yeah, it is kind of cool. You’re up close and personal to the microphone.

Claire: Yes.

Joy: And it’s almost like when they lower the microphone – at least, mine’s kind of hanging upside down. It makes me feel like I’m at a boxing match where they’re like, “Let’s get ready to rumble” and the mic comes down in front of you.

Claire: Totally.

Joy: Let’s just spend the whole hour talking about microphones.

Claire: I hope you guys are as excited about this as we are. So last week we made the horrible mistake –

Joy: Horrible.

Claire: – of not telling you guys about all of the embarrassing anesthesia stories and hot doctor stories that you had written in. So we are going to kick this week off and we’re not going to waste a single moment and we’re going to start talking to you guys about some hot doctors. Because we got some pretty good stories.

Joy: Yeah, and this is so funny because we had some of the comments, some people messaged us, but really the one’s that we’re going to read are the ones that are in our email because we lose – just hot tip if you want us to read anything, send it to us in the email. Otherwise if you DM us a story, it’s going to get lost.

Claire: I actually did screenshot one though because I knew that was going to happen, but I loved it so much that I screenshotted it. Not that if I didn’t screenshot yours I didn’t love it. Just means I didn’t think about it in the moment. 

Joy: Okay great.

Claire: Okay great. Go ahead, get us started.

Joy: So I have a hot doctor story. It says, “Hey friends, this isn’t a coming out of anesthesia story, but it is a hot doctor story. So take it or leave it. When I was 21 and home from college for the summer, I had a really gross medical issue. Sorry in advance. But I had to go to the ER in the middle of the night. Long story short, I had a throat infection that turned into an abscess inside my tonsil.” Hey, just a little pause for a moment. It’s not graphic, but just if you’re like super sensitive just maybe fast forward. I was fine reading it. Okay, back to the email. “My tonsil got so swollen it was starting to clock my airway and cause me to wheeze. The medical resident in the ER had to stick a needle into my tonsil and drain out the infection.” Super gross! “While I gagged and screamed bloody murder. The resident incidentally was maybe a few years older than me and he was super hot. I would have been mortified had I not been in so much pain. After a weeklong stay in the hospital on IV drugs, I was finally recovered enough to return home and to my summer job as a golf course waitress. My first day back at work, a bachelor party came in. They had just finished a round of golf and about, oh, six beers each. I waited on their table. It took me a minute to realize why one of the guys looked to familiar. He was the hot doctor who drained my tonsil. The last time I had seen him, I had been in the most disgusting medical situation of my entire life. He looked at me knowingly too. Of course, because of HIPAA laws, he didn’t say anything. But I, in all my socially awkward glory, decided to say, ‘Hey, I was your patient a couple weeks ago.’ He was very kind about the whole thing and told me he was glad to see me feeling better. Unfortunately I knew he’d never, ever, ever want to kiss me. Note, I’m now in my 40’s and happily, not to a doctor.”

Claire: I’ve got to wonder – you get top secret security clearance, they make sure you don’t talk in your sleep. They make sure you don’t say things when you’re drunk. I’ve always wondered with HIPAA if you see someone out and about who you’ve treated, you’re not allowed to say anything to them about it. They have to initiate it. But what if you did get wasted and you were like, “Hey man, how’s your gross tonsil abscess?” 

Joy: Oh my gosh.

Claire: Oh no.

Joy: That would be some serious “no no” in the medical community.

Claire: Yes, but I could totally see it happening.

Joy: I wonder if it’s happened before.

Claire: It has to have happened. Okay, here’s the one I screenshotted. “I love the episode today. I have a funny anesthesia story for you both. Freshman year of college I had to get a pretty invasive knee surgery.” Oh, this is an anesthesia one, not a hot doctor one.

Joy: Okay, okay.

Claire: “I had to get a pretty invasive knee surgery. My surgery was scheduled for 8am, so I had fasted since 8pm the night before. The surgery ran five hours late, so it was 1pm before I even got into surgery. First of all, I woke up during the surgery. It was only for a few seconds. I have always run through anesthesia really fast. The dentist had always told me she was impressed at how fast I go through it. Anywho, woke up during surgery. All I remember is seeing a crazy bright light and a face and someone saying, ‘Oh crap, she’s awake.’ Then I went back to sleep. After waking up from surgery at 4pm, I was starving and very cranky. I don’t remember any of this, but my grandma who drove me there and waited for me said they offered me Saltines and juice after waking up and I said, ‘Absolutely not. I’m Paleo. I will only eat salad.’ Then she said they were trying to help me to the wheelchair to try and go to the bathroom and I said, ‘I can do it myself.’ They said, ‘You just had surgery, we need to help you.’ I apparently said, ‘If my surgeon was as good as he says he is, I won’t need help.’ Turns out I needed help. Mind you, I remember none of this. Very embarrassing when I had to go back a week later for my post-op checkup.” Then she said, “They had no problem reminding me of it every time I went in for a post-op checkup and had to pass by their office, every time I went in for a physical therapy.”

Joy: It totally reminds me of your father-in-law’s tubes.

Claire: He was very insistent that this was his tubing, he had paid for it.

Joy: Or your teeth. You said you wanted this. Oh my gosh.

Claire: It’s got to happen all the time.

Joy: Oh my gosh. Okay, I do not want to miss this one because it’s so good. This listener commented on our Instagram post when we post the episode, and she says, “I’ve been waiting my whole life for someone to ask my hot doc story. When I was in college about to urgently get my appendix taken out, the hot resident was questioning my hunger levels and asked me what my favorite food was. And I said, “Sushi.” In my drugged-up stupor, I thought he was actually asking if I wanted some. After surgery, I sent him a thank you card with my number in it, and he called and took me out to sushi.” I was like, what!

Claire: That, oh my gosh, I would be mortified.

Joy: And someone replied and said, “Are y’all married now?”

Claire: And she said, “We had some funny nights out with friends after that, but he was a bit too serious for me.” And she said, “Maybe definitely had to do with the fact that I was in college.” Oh my gosh, it’s so funny. Okay, this one says, “I have a couple of anesthesia stories. I was coming out of it after a procedure and I just wouldn’t wake up. My husband kept talking to me and trying to get me to fully wake up. The nurse gave me sugar and then I started crying because my shoe came off. ‘But I need my shoes! How will I leave? Get me out of here.’ My husband had surgery in college and he was in the twilight zone. The nurses were talking about their husbands and one was really concerned about something hers was doing. Husband yells, ‘Oh geez, he’s totally cheating on you. Just dump him.’ Also, thanks for the great show.” Oh, you’re welcome. That’s from @lionsmanenutrition.

Claire: Okay, so this one is waking up from wisdom teeth. Which I feel like there are a lot of good wisdom teeth stories because, A, a lot of people that was the first time they ever were put under. And, B, when you’re getting your wisdom teeth taken out, you pretty much get up and leave immediately. I feel like it’s one of the few scenarios where you’re out in the wild while coming out of anesthesia. Most places if you’re getting surgery, you’re in the recovery room or you’re in the hospital for a little while.

Joy: Right.

Claire: Okay, so this one says, “The only time I’ve been under was for my wisdom teeth. When I woke up, my arms were tied to the chair. I never did figure out why. My parents couldn’t figure out that I wanted KFC mashed potatoes. Then when I wanted to go to the bathroom, I was told that someone needed to go in with me for safety. Which led to a long argument about not needing help to use the toilet and my parents refusing to stop at a gas station because it is dirty. I saw the gauze in the mirror and tried to take it out, still in the doctor’s office. I spilled water all down my front when I tried to drink because I couldn’t wait. So basically I turned into a stubborn a**hole who can do everything myself when I’m put under.”

Joy: Oh my God.

Claire: I feel like I would like to know do these tendencies of your post-anesthesia self, are they the same way that you get when you’re drunk.

Joy: I wonder. I absolutely wonder. That’s a really good question. This one says, “I was about to go through an egg retrieval for IVF, which requires brief anesthesia. And as a 30-year-old at the time, it felt super invasive and over the top somehow. My husband and I were waiting for the anesthesiologist. It turned out to be the guy who took me to his senior prom, and he had the first name as my husband.”

Claire: Oh my gosh, I read that one to Brandon. He was just mortified. 

Joy: Nooo.

Claire: I tried to ask Brandon if he had any good ones because he’s an OR nurse. He was like, no, he’s not the guy who takes them. Brandon is the nurse who comes in and says, “Hey, I’m Brandon. Here’s what we’re doing today. Can you confirm your birthdate with me,” whatever. But he usually leaves before they get put under and then doesn’t see them again when they’re done. He’s not like the post-doc nurse.

Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Claire: Sadly. 

Joy: Sadly.

Claire: He didn’t have anything for me.

Joy: Okay, this says, “I was having a surgery on my wrist and the anesthesiologist was telling the surgeon lady that he and his wife were raising triplet girls who were about to become teenagers. At that time, my daughter was two and I was having a hard time keeping up with just her. So while I was in the twilight zone, I insisted that he told me the secret of not going insane – or his wife not going insane, to be exact – while raising triplets. His answer was a live-in nanny. Which was out of my budget, but hey at least I felt better for his wife.” How do you keep sane?

Claire: I mean, guys, I have one of those. I would highly recommend it.

Joy: Highly recommend it.

Claire: It’s not that expensive, check it out. It’s cheaper than day care, especially for more than one kid. Okay let’s do one more.

Joy: One more. It says, “When I was in college, I got put under for the first time for wisdom teeth surgery. I remember waking up out of surgery and feeling a little woozy, a little drunk, but totally fine. But I had heard so many stories about people having crazy experiences, so I was on high alert to say ‘normal’ and not make a fool of myself.” I love that you’re trying not to do it. That happened to me with one of my surgeries. I was like, “Don’t fall asleep, don’t fall asleep.”

Claire: Be cool, be cool, be cool.

Joy: “Well, they start walking me out down a hallway and I see an adorable golden retriever puppy coming towards me. Mind you, I’m at a dentist office, so I’m like, ‘Wow, I think I’m hallucinating. I see a dog in the hallway.’ And the nurses were like, ‘No, there’s really a dog there.’ And in my state of confusion, I was like, ‘You sure?’ And they made it seem totally normal that a dog was in the office. I questioned my sanity and couldn’t stop giggling at the ridiculousness of it. I know this isn’t the funniest, but any story with a dog is a good one.” Yes, it is. But I love that it’s the perfect timing to have something that’s totally unrealistic in the –

Claire: It’s be like Billy Madison and the penguin. 

Joy: Totally. You’re like, “No, is that really a dog?” Yeah. 

Claire: No, no, no, you don’t understand.

Joy: Thank you guys.

Claire: Are you really seeing this? So thank you for those. Those are hilarious. I love that we –

Joy: I’m sorry we missed it last week.

Claire: I know. As soon as we were done, I sent Joy a text and I was like, “Joy.”

Joy: How did we miss that?

Claire: How did we miss this. Okay, other important thing that we really need to talk about is the hair part saga.

Joy: Is it a saga?

Claire: Is it a saga? The drama.

Joy: First of all, where did it come from because I saw a post about it I don’t know where, probably on Instagram, and I immediately felt my age. Which I don’t like saying that because I’m not old but I am not of a younger generation. 

Claire: Right, yeah.

Joy: I’m like, okay, what’s the big deal about this? What is it about? Why is it a big deal?

Claire: So I think it came from TikTok, which would make sense because it’s where all the young people are. And basically it was like, I don’t know the original one, but it quickly turned into a bandwagon of basically saying, “Hey Millennials, your skinny jeans and your side parts are out of date. And when you’re wearing skinny jeans and have a side part, you’re dating yourself. Only Millennials have a side part and skinny jeans anymore. Part your hair in the middle already. Get with the time. And wear some wider pants.” And the responses to this have been hilarious. And honestly guys, we all have bigger things to worry about here, but I just feel the need to address this.

Joy: Please. Because I was like, why is it a big deal? And what about Gen X? What’s the story for Gen X?

Claire: Everyone’s forgotten about you already.

Joy: They forgot [laughing].

Claire: But I think basically it’s them saying, everybody still thinks that skinny jeans and side parts are still in. They’re not in. Stop trying to make side parts happen.

Joy: So it’s kind of like when Gen X started getting annoyed with the Millennials. 

Claire: Now Gen Z is like, you guys look old.

Joy: Annoyed with the Millennials, okay. Got it.

Claire: You know. So then all these Millennial bloggers and stuff are like, “What the heck are you talking about? I look like Cousin Itt when my hair is parted down the center.” Here’s the thing. I started parting my hair down the center, what, a couple of – I feel like I got on the bandwagon just in the nick of time. I got that hair cut right before –

Joy: Right before they started making it a deal.

Claire: I still am getting used to it. Because I’ve been parting my hair on the side for so long. And here’s the thing is, anyone who started parting their hair on the side in high school or college, their pre-part self, my side part was really my first conscious decision I made about my own hair.

Joy: Mm, okay.

Claire: That was not like – maybe in middle school I got some highlights once or something, but for the most part I didn’t give it a lot of thought.

Joy: Okay.

Claire: Or, you know, I did the micro buns.

Joy: Sure. The micro buns. Wait, you wore that as a style? Like a full-on style to school?

Claire: Oh yeah. I would go early, and I would use the rubber bands that came with my expander.

Joy: Those teeny tiny things?

Claire: No, they weren’t that teeny. It was the ones that went back and forth between the back of my jaw to the front of my jaw.

Joy: Oh I was thinking of the braces ones. I was like, how did you?

Claire: Oh no, no, no, no. You have to use tweezers to put those on. No, no, no, no. I would use those orthodontic braces. If that doesn’t date you to exactly the point of my life that I was doing this. So my side part was the first time where I was like, “Oh, this is cool. I’m going to do this.”

Joy: And was there someone who made you –

Claire: Yeah, Kristin Cavallari.

Joy: Oh, yes.

Claire: Duh. I was like, if Kristin Cavallari has a side part, I need a side part.

Joy: And you were really into –

Claire: Laguna Beach.

Joy: Laguna Beach, thank you. You were really into Laguna Beach, but not The Hills?

Claire: Yes. I didn’t go on to also be into The Hills.

Joy: Because you were like, “I’m in college” – 

Claire: Mostly because, yeah, by that point, I wasn’t really watching TV as much.

Joy: Sure.

Claire: And I think that that is the case. Here’s my hypothesis is all of us Millennials who are being told it’s time to part your hair in the center, we’re all like, “No, no, no, you don’t understand. I’m going to look like a 5th grader because the last time I did this was when I was fresh in the middle of or fresh out of puberty.”

Joy: Okay.

Claire: So the center part does not represent a stylish time in our lives.

Joy: Okay. Yeah, it’s so interesting because I was always middle parting. And then I don’ know. I’ve always been a little side part, middle part, I’ve never had one part.

Claire: Yeah, I’ve slipped back and forth on my sides, but it’s always been the side part since high school.

Joy: Now it’s not okay.

Claire: Now, yeah. And then my hair stylist has been trying to get me to go to the center for forever. Whatever, I finally did it, and all this stuff happened. But that’s my hypothesis is why it feels like a big deal. It’s because we’re all like, “You don’t understand. I’ve done the middle part, and I wasn’t cool.”

Joy: Right, we did it when it was not cool. You’re taking us back to a not-cool thing.

Claire: You’re regressing us back into a not-cool time. And then the skinny jeans, I mean, whatever. I don’t care. Who’s wearing jeans right now is my question?

Joy: So they said not to wear skinny jeans.

Claire: No skinny jeans. Straight leg pant or a slightly wider cut. So straight leg or a tapered, but not a skinny. So many rules.

Joy: But here’s the thing. If I dressed – I go back and forth sometimes because Scott will see something really cool and he’ll be like, “Oh, you should get this.”

Claire: Right, your man fashion consultant.

Joy: Where on earth would I wear that?

Claire: I love when he does that. He’s like, “Joy, have you seen this vegan cowhide, duster blazer jacket with an extendable hood?” And you’re like, “To where will I wear this?”

Joy: Where would I wear that? And I wish I lived in a place where I could wear that. Yeah, sure, I can put on whatever I want. But you’re in Denver. I wouldn’t have the energy to go outside wearing something like that. 

Claire: No.

Joy: It’s not practical. I think there was a couple times too right after Christmas, these amazing ragging bone shoes were on sale. “Oh my gosh, these beautiful stiletto boots.” Where on earth am I going to wear those? Where on earth am I going to wear those? I don’t live on a reality TV show. I don’t.

Claire: If you personally have felt personally victimized by the hair parting scandal, please let us know. I kind of feel like – however, I was talking to the only other person I talk to, my friend Heather. Hi Heather.

Joy: Hey, Heather. Everybody knows Heather.

Claire: And she bought up a good point, which was like, “Listen. I don’t feel the need to be up with the latest trends all the time. But if given the choice, I will make an effort to not date myself by my fashion choices.” And she made the example of recently being in an appointment for something, walking up to the receptionist table. And based on the women who were sitting at the table, you looked at their hairstyles and you can immediately tell these women are probably in their late 50’s, just based on their hairstyle. Think about like, there are definitely certain styles of clothes and certain types of hair the date people in certain generations. And none of that’s a bad thing. But that is sort of like, listen, if you were to look – and I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about it too because it’s like I don’t necessarily care that someone looks at me in a certain way. Like, “Oh, you must be in your early to mid 30’s.” Yes, correct. I am in fact 33. Congratulations. But at the same time of not wanting that to be what sticks with people. Like, “Oh yeah, the grandma with the dance mom hair.”

Joy: Right. Or what they call “soccer mom hair.”

Claire: Exactly. Or the Karen haircut, or whatever. So I don’t know. I think it’s a very silly thing to be up in arms about. I feel like you can part your hair wherever you want. I don’t feel like you should make fashion choices based on what other younger people think about you. And I also find it interesting to find out that, hey, you’re starting to date yourself with that. Maybe you can change it up. Okay, I accept that feedback.

Joy: I accept updating your look, but I am also very aware – what I was saying earlier, I didn’t finish my thought is I will sometimes look at things and be like, “That’s cute,” but also, I’m 43. I don’t know if I should be wearing that. There’s a lot of things that I’ll at and I don’t know if I should be wearing that. And truly, this is not coming from a place of shame or self-loathing. It’s just more of, I don’t know if I should be wearing –

Claire: Good for you, not for me.

Joy: Yeah. I don’t think I should be wearing this at my age type of thing.

Claire: You know who I love? And obviously I am not fashion forward. I pretty much have been making the same outfit choices my whole life. But who I love hearing talking about fashion as you age is Stacy London. 

Joy: Oh yeah.

Claire: The What Not to Wear lady. She’s like, none of the rules that I made for all these people back in the early 2000’s still matter to me because I’ve moved on. These fashion choices that I used to make all the time, they’re not appropriate for me anymore. And it’s less about not being “age appropriate” and more just like not being this is not the type of person that I feel that I am anymore. This is more in line with a younger person, and I don’t feel like that.

Joy: That’s a really good point. That’s a good point, yeah.

Claire: It’s not that you can’t wear that if you’re over 40. It’s more like, listen, I want to look my age. This is not a problem. I don’t identify with that style. It’s not about –

Joy: And then I can turn the corner and wear glitter and, you know, every color of the rainbow.

Claire: Right, I mean you wear glitter eye liner. So it’s not about aging or not, not being age appropriate or not. More what feels like you. And as your age changes, that changes. And also, I still feel like every time I wear my hair in a pony tail with a center part I look like Mel Brooks – Mel Brooks. [laughing] I don’t look like Mel Brooks. Mel Gipson in The Patriot. Every time, I have to be like, okay, it’s fine, this little spot on my forehead that is a little bit eggy. It’s going to be fine. No one else notices.

Joy: No one else notices. No one else notices. I guarantee everyone out there who you have some weird thing about your looks that you think people are going to see – A, who cares? But B, they do not notice.

Claire: No one notices. No one notices.

Joy: No one notices.

Claire: Like one of my eyes opens farther than the other one.

Joy: Don’t notice.

Claire: No one has ever noticed.

Joy: No, I don’t notice it, and I’ve known you for years.

Claire: Right, exactly. I think the other thing, and I feel like we might have talked about this recently, is that no one also notices if you gain or lose ten to twenty to thirty pounds. You notice. You notice five pounds. Unless it’s sudden and rapid, I don’t ever notice if I see my friends and they’ve put on a couple pounds. Never.

Joy: I think there’s people out there that would say there’s people that will notice and comment on it, as we’ve talked about before.

Claire: F*** those guys. But I mean, I just think, maybe those people are looking for it. And it’s like if you spot it, you got it. But there’s just all those little things that we all just worry about so much and no one else notices because they’re not worried about you. They’re worried about themselves, and they’re worried about you worrying about them. 

Joy: This is in line with something that someone asked about in one of our posts for questions, and it kind of transfers nicely. It’s talking about our thoughts on diet culture and how we’ve grown since the Girls Gone WOD days. “It would be interesting to hear you guys revisit your old GGW topics with the new perspective from your growth through diet culture. I’m thinking different diets like macros, your fitness routines current gym family, your current ways of eating, etc. It would be cool to see the growth.” And we had a lot of people saying, “Yes” to this, so they want to hear about that. So maybe a brief thought about it? I don’t know if we want to go down to the roots with it.

Claire: I feel like we’ve talked about it. I definitely talk a lot about it. Maybe I just think a lot about it and we don’t really talk about it. I think that something that we used to say is still really true, which is you never arrive at an acceptance of not dieting or an acceptance of every single piece of your body. Or the pressure to live in that head space never completely goes away. And because we’re seeing it everywhere all the time still, even if you know that it’s toxic and that it’s not what you want, just seeing it, it’s so easy to have that immediate knee-jerk reaction of, “Oh, I should go back to counting macros.” Or, “Oh, I should be doing X, Y, Z.” And I think on the other hand from that, I have counted macros in the past year. I do work out very regularly right now. I do make a lot of choices that are the same choices but for different reasons.

Joy: Right because I was going to ask, looking back have you been like, “Wow, ten years ago whatever diet I was doing, I can’t believe I did that” or are you kind of like – 

Claire: Not really. For me, it’s always – and I know we talk about how I’m an outlier in the sense that I really can do things just to gain the information. I think back to my second year doing CrossFit when I did a bunch of Zone, basically did a cut without calling it that or knowing that’s what it was.

Joy: I hate that word.

Claire: I know. I said I achieved exactly what I set out to achieve and then I moved on. It was really interesting, and definitely there have been times since then where I’ve thought, “What was different about that six-week period where it felt so easy to stick with that and it felt so doable and so attainable.” And it’s like, oh, because I had nothing freaking else to do.

Joy: Right. That’s when you were focused on, yeah.

Claire: I wasn’t even married yet. I don’t even think we were engaged. I was dating Brandon, we were living together. I was working at a job that really didn’t require all of my attention, so I could spend a ton of time in the gym and a ton of time meal prepping and weighing and measuring and doing all this stuff and worrying about that. I think because I have a really logical brain about that, I can look back at those previous times in my life and think, “That was then Claire. Wasn’t that a fun experiment for her.” Maybe it’s because I don’ that any lasting ill effects from it. I don’t feel like I developed any thought patterns that I can’t get rid of. It wasn’t physically damaging. That I can do that, just, “Yeah, sure, that happened.” But I think the biggest thing that’s changed for me is that it’s so much easier now for me to really be respectful of where I’m at in my life on any given day and just sort of show up and not, you know. And I think I know what to do. I have the knowledge. I tell myself that a lot where I’m like, listen, if I wanted to “fix” this problem, if I wanted to lose ten pounds, if I wanted to help my anxiety through my diet, if I wanted to get a strict pull up. If I wanted all these things, I know what I would need to do, It’s not a mystery. It’s just a matter of, is that really where I want to put my time and energy right now? And the answer is pretty much, “No.”

Joy: There’s too much bread to be had and pies to be baked.

Claire: But I still go to the gym, right now like four to six times a week, which is the most I’ve been going in the past year. And that’s because it’s the only time that I can get out of my house, and that’s truly it for me.

Joy: That’s really good for you. It’s good for you mentally in so many ways to interact with people, yeah.

Claire: It’s so good for me. I feel better mentally right now than I have in probably even since before COVID. It’s night and day when I’m able to get out of the house regularly and be around other people regularly, let alone work outside every once in a while. That for me is truly one of the biggest keys to my mental health, and I really prioritize that for so many reasons because then it helps me be a more present parent, it helps my marriage. If there’s this one activity that I can do for an hour a day that has all these benefits, then yeah, I’m going to do it. For me, that happens to be driving 25 minutes across town to go to my CrossFit gym. But if that activity for me was baking or gardening or washing my car or painting or whatever then that’s what I would pick. I was thinking about this the other day too. I was thinking about the rhetoric of people, “I need to work out in order to be my best self.” Yeah, that’s true. But the assumption there is that, first of all, all my other needs are met and, second of all, my “best self” is always accessible and attainable and that I should expect that to be my baseline. And that’s not the case. We’ve talked about how happiness shouldn’t be your baseline. “Well just do whatever it takes to be happy.” No, I don’t want to be happy all the time. My baseline shouldn’t be, “I’m in such a good mood.”

Joy: No way. And that’s not sustainable. That’s not how we’re wired. 

Claire: It’s not sustainable. That’s what I’ve been thinking about when it comes to this idea that I need to work out to be my best self. Then people go straight to, “Okay, then I what can I do to prioritize working out?” No, what that statement actually means is working out is the very tip of my pyramid. That is the last step to being and feeling as good as I can feel. But everything else is below that. Sleep, anxiety, eating regularly, drinking enough water, having a job that I feel –

Joy: What do you mean about anxiety? Like, managing it?

Claire: Yeah, right. Getting enough sleep and helping manage my anxiety. I always say managing my anxiety is also a – what’s the opposite of a cause? An effect… “What’s the opposite of a cause?” [laughing].

Joy: What is the opposite of cause?

Claire: Effect, thank you. Ten points for Claire. And just that when I have all of those things, then I can add working out on top of it. And yes, then that puts me over the edge into feeling like, “Okay, now I’m in the groove.” But I’m not going to choose working out if I don’t have good sleep.

Joy: Such a good point.

Claire: To this day… I read something a while ago that said if you are routinely missing gout on sleep in order to go work out, you’re stepping over dollars to pick up pennies. 

Joy: I like that a lot.

Claire: Yeah, it just says it so succinctly. Yeah, working out, there’s not no value to it, but you’re really missing out on a whole lot if you’re not getting enough sleep. When the kids were really little, I started a rule for myself that I still do which is if I have gotten fewer than six hours of sleep –

Joy: I remember you saying this.

Claire: – or fewer than four hours of uninterrupted sleep, then I don’t go work out. And when the kids were really little, it was just the six hours of sleep rule because four hours of uninterrupted sleep was not available to me. But now I’ve added that in because I need a chunk. Then I don’t go work out. Whatever, I’ll get the $10 no-show fee. I’ll be that person that signs out ten minutes before class starts. Oh well.

Joy: Oh well.

Claire: I feel a little guilty because that means somebody else maybe couldn’t have gotten into the class. But it is what it is. That’s the line I have to hold. And then there’s other stuff like that too. Like I’ve gotten into a better routine with eating, which for some reason it’s hard for me to remember to eat when I’m out of my groove. I would say the big thing, the big outlier still that I haven’t quite – this is going to sound so silly – is bathing and my physical, like doing my hair and washing my face. All these things, I just don’t care. I wish I could –

Joy: Like, cleaning yourself?

Claire: Cleaning myself, body care. I wish I could delegate that. I wish I could have someone else shower and have it transferred to me. I don’t know. Anyway, what about you?

Joy: Well, I was just going to say. You’re in a pandemic. You’re at home. You just have to deal with your family. It’s not like you’re going –

Claire: You don’t know this right now, but I smell terrible.

Joy: [laughing] I will never forget the time when we would record on our bedroom floor, and I think one time you’d cooked onions or something.

Claire: It was garlic, something garlicky. I had done a workout, gone home and cooked something with garlic, and then come to your house. And you were like, “Claire, you smell really bad.” It wasn’t just garlic. It was body odor garlic, vampire body odor. 

Joy: It was so bad. And we had to shut the door, and the room smelled for like two hours. It was so funny. You were like, “I just cooked garlic, and I just worked out.”

Claire: I apologize for not changing my shirt before coming over. 

Joy: So I would say a lot has changed, obviously. I mean, we grow as humans. When we know better, we do better. When we first started the podcast, we were starting out with CrossFit. CrossFit was fairly new to us. The diet world was fairly new to me in terms of actually doing a diet. So when we counted macros, that was all very new to me. And I talked a lot about where I stood with eating and exercising in my past on the Girls Gone WOD show. So I’d say after going through all of that with CrossFit and being competitive and eating and the diet and getting in a really unhealthy place with eating and coming back now – I kind of fast forwarded through all of that. If anyone wants to go back and listen to all the Girls Gone WOD episodes, feel free. They’re there. But I feel like now I look at that and I go, “Oh, it’s because I just didn’t know better.” It’s because I truly thought with every decision I ever make, I truly think it comes from a place of curiosity and wanting to try things. I like to challenge myself. But unfortunately there is a characteristic and a personality trait in me that will take that to an unhealthy level in some instances. So now obviously dealing with what I’m dealing with with Graves’ Disease is putting me in such a mind screw of my doctor telling me in order for you to be your best self, you can’t work out. You can’t get your heart rate up. You have to sleep. Prioritizing eating right, meaning for me eliminating things that I have an intolerance to, eating foods that nourish me, eating enough food. Which thankfully now my appetite’s back so that’s not been a problem. But the not working out and increasing your sleep and making sure you’re drinking enough water and blah, blah, blah, that is the priority of health for me. That’s just such a weird thing for me to be at right now. Looking back at ten years ago, I’d be like, “I want to run marathons when I’m 50.” And now I’m like, “I just have to walk my dogs and take things pretty slow.” And when I’m in the gym, I lift weights. And then if my heart rate gets up, I sit down. I sit on the bench, and I take some rest. It’s no longer difficult for me. I’m not going into the gym being like, “Oh, I can’t believe I haven’t done this in forever” and “I haven’t done a pull-up.” Thankfully I’m in a place where I’m just glad that I’m here. I’m glad that my blood work is looking better. I’m glad that things are improving. So as far as what I eat now, I eat what I feel like eating. And I don’t like to do what you ate in a day because I don’t think it matters, but I think I listen to my hunger cues. I eat within the first hour of waking up because my doctor tells me to. And so that is simplifying it in a way of being the more intuitive eating approach, and I will praise that to the mountain tops and hope that Evelyn Tribole will come on our podcast at some point. I would say it’s a matter of just saying I’m prioritizing my health and not what my physical appearance looks like. And I say that with, kind of going back to the diet culture stuff, of when we first started the podcast, Instagram was fairly new. Right? It wasn’t super in the realm of possibilities with diet culture.

Claire: It wasn’t what it is now.

Joy: It definitely was not what it is now. So I feel like diet culture just really took a turn for the worst on Instagram, to the point of emphasizing thinness as a goal. Which really is ridiculous. But I think back then I was more in that camp of, “I’ve got to work out to eat.” Food and workouts were transactional.

Claire: Yeah, it was kind of a joke. “Oh, I work out for tacos” and “I got to go get my burpees before this Frappuccino.” 

Joy: Workout for wine.

Claire: This 150 burpees, and yeah, it was kind of cute and funny.

Joy: Yeah. And it’s still there. When I’m on Peloton, because I do walks on there, I’ll see people’s screen names because you just make up a cute screen name. And there will be tons of screen names like “work out for tacos,” “work out for win,” “I run for carbs” or whatever. It’s still going to be there, and that is very tongue and cheek. But I just think at the end of the day, I’m at a place where prioritizing health for me is what do I need to do to have all my labs look good. Not, can I fit into this pair of jeans or whatever. Can I do this number of pull ups. It’s just totally, totally changed. And I realize my case is a little more extreme. It’s not like I just all of the sudden had this epiphany of diet culture, but it’s been a journey. I have to weigh myself for data. I’m not weighing myself – and this was back in September or October when this all started – I was weighing myself pretty regularly because I was like something is not right here. And now I have to monitor my weight for my health. Let me be clear and just restate this. I know we say this all the time. But for me, my body weight is a certain number for my health. So I’m not saying that everyone out there has to weigh themselves for their health, but for me, because of my diagnosis, I can’t lose more weight because that will tell me that things aren’t getting better. I have to watch to see if I’m gaining weight. It’s a real mind fuck too because I have to step on the scale again and watch my weight. Watch my weight meaning monitor my weight for data. That’s something where I’m like, wow, back in the past I was really weighing myself for diet culture crap. It’s better I guess. It’s better in the sense that I’m not worried about the diet culture crap, but it’s not better in the sense of I am still struggling with my health.

Claire: I feel like, too, there’s a big component of it, as we’re talking about this, I think that, not that we’re rambling, but you can tell it’s not something that we think about all the time because it’s not as cohesive as it once was. And I think that’s a good thing. I think that it shows that we’re both at a point where this isn’t always in the forefront of our minds anymore. Again, it’s something that never goes away, it might never go away.

Joy: I don’t think it ever will. I think it never will. I think being a human means you compare yourself with others, and you can compare yourself but you can’t take it down a road of shame or guilt or “I should” or “I should do this” or “shoulda woulda coulda.” That’s just really, as a human we’re always going to compare. I think that’s just innate human nature.

Claire: Yeah. And I also think that there is, when you went through all of your formative years believing certain things, that’s always going to be in the back of your head. If you went through your adolescence and teenage years and maybe even before that and definitely after that believing that you should always be on a diet or believing that you were supposed to look a certain way that was unattainable for your body type – or even if it was attainable, it wasn’t natural, it wasn’t your natural state of being – then it’s going to be hard to move away from that ever. But I think there’s a difference between recognizing, “Oh isn’t that weird that I still think that” versus, “Oh my gosh, I’m still controlled by this.”

Joy: Exactly. And I think a lot sometimes too, because I think about growing up and the environment I lived in. Gosh, my mom is the most neutral, supportive, she never talked about her body negatively. She never had diet food in the house. She was a good role model around that, meaning it just wasn’t an issue in our house. It wasn’t brought up. So I think a lot about the environment that I was in in school. Oh yeah, I can point to every single time I felt like I wasn’t, I wouldn’t say “good enough,” but I wasn’t the shape that was desirable.

Claire: Right, whether it was in your house, whether it was in your school, whether it was the Cady Heron moment where it’s like, I used to think there was only fat and skinny, but now I realize there’s a lot of things that could be wrong with you. 

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Yep.

Joy: Which is interesting. Let me just say that about body imagine – not body image, but just socializing with junior high and high school right now, is I’m really curious from parents to see if there’s anything going on with your child around socializing and bullying or feeling like you’re comparing to someone else. Because most kids aren’t together, so is there less comparing, is there less bullying, is there less drama?

Claire: But also there’s a lot more time online.

Joy: Yeah, an online bullying is the worst sometimes. I’m wondering about that because that’s just going to be really interesting about how that forms that generation.

Claire: Yeah, for sure. Okay. So taking an extreme right turn, the other day I was in the grocery store and I was standing in line. I had my cart. I was up next. And I only had a few things in my cart. Normally it’s me and the whole circus at the store, and I only had a few things in my cart this time. I was standing there, and it was pretty busy. I started thinking, “Man, I feel so anxious right now.” I’m so nervous. I don’t want to miss – is it my turn? Do I go? So then I texted Joy and Jess, and I was like, “Am I the only person who feels this way?”

Joy: No.

Claire: When I’m standing at the front. And not all stores are doing this, but a lot of stores now they have it where you line up in one, huge, great line and then you have somebody at the front who directs you where to go. So this is the situation at my local grocery store. And as I’m standing there waiting to go, it felt like –

Joy: Do I go? Do I go?

Claire: Now? No?

Joy: Or if you’re in line and you miss someone waving you’re over. Any time someone is waiting because of you is the worst thing. And entrance and exit is sometimes different now, so you can’t exit and enter in the same doors. One for entrance, one for exit. And I’m also like, “Oh my gosh, I’m getting it wrong.”

Claire: Right, I failed at going to the grocery store. There didn’t used to be a right and a wrong way to go to the grocery store, but now there is.

Joy: Now, it’s like, “Oh my gosh, Joy, put my” – some stores they don’t allow you to put items on the belt until they’ve wiped it off from the person before you. So it’s like, okay, if I put something on – yeah, all the rules are freaking me out. Speaking of the grocery store, I was going to tell this story but then I was like should I tell this story? But I’m going to tell this story. So I went to see my parents this weekend. They live in a really small rural town. They’ve lived there for, what, almost 20 years?

Claire: Oh wow, really? I didn’t realize they lived there for so long.

Joy: No, they’ve lived there for a long time. They moved there the year that I graduated from grad school, so they’ve been there for quite some time. So I’ve been there plenty –

Claire: You graduated from grad school 20 years ago?

Joy: Well, 18. 18 years.

Claire: I know that we don’t talk – as you guys know, Joy is almost exactly 10 years older than me. Right now it doesn’t really feel like it matters. But 20 years ago, I was in 8th grade. Those are the moments where I’m like, 20 years feels like a long time. Go on.

Joy: I was 25, I was so young. So anyway, been there plenty of times. It’s the cutest little town. Love it, my parents love everyone there. All of her little friends, she goes bowling, it’s adorable. And volunteer at this cute little railroad club where they restore the depot. It’s just so cute. But I also know that it’s a very conservative town, like really conservative. Like we drive through this past year, there’s Trump-Pence signs everywhere. I think I said last year during the 4th of July –

Claire: Right, that it basically became a Trump campaign parade.

Joy: It was Trump campaign parade.

Claire: Like guys with guns standing in the back of their truck, yeah.

Joy: Oh my gosh, it was crazy. I’m like, okay, this is not for me.

Claire: Yeah, I’m just going to grab another cup of coffee and go home.

Joy: I’m just going to go get some coffee and get out of here. And so, I mean, my parents live in the foothills. They’re really kind of away from the town, but every once in a while we have to go into town to get whatever. So when I was there this past weekend, I went into the grocery store. And granted we’ve been to this grocery store in the past year, since the pandemic had started. I think it was this summer and this winter, like in December we went. Everyone had masks on, I don’t remember anything really jarring about it. But this time, there were handfuls of people not wearing masks in the grocery store. We had –

Claire: Which as a reminder is illegal in Colorado. I’ll say it again. It’s an executive mandate. It’ll illegal for you not to do that.

Joy: So I had gone to the butcher shop – there’s this cute little butcher shop around the corner – to get some meat and things for dinner. And in the butcher shop, they had this cute little sign that’s like, “I know it’s a mandate, you have to wear a mask. Just cover your face.” It was kind of recognizing – so part of me was like, woah, this is a town – and here’s the funny thing. I’ve been going to this town for a long time, but I think because of the political climate, it’s never been so in my face. And so, I’m like, oh wow, but even in the past year I’ve never seen it this blatant. I also think it’s because the pandemic got really serious, and so of course, I haven’t been there every single day since masks have been mandated, but – so I go into the grocery store. The butcher shop was fine, but I go into the grocery store, and I was just livid. I was so livid. And my anger is because, I don’t even need to explain it. You’d be angry too if you really believe in science and the pandemic. I’m walking around people with no masks on. Except for the Amish. I would like to know their beliefs, but they weren’t wearing masks either. And the checkout girl had her mask under her chin like she was giving us a big f*** you. And I’m in with all my rainbow clothes and glitter on my face and I’m driving our Tesla. I’m sure they’re like, “Who the f*** are these people?” And part of me was like, ugh, I was so mad. What draws up in me is, you’re being selfish, why don’t you care about other people. And so we left and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so mad. “ And Scott’s like, “Joy, this is happening everywhere. This happens everywhere.” He’s like, “Joy, we live in a bubble. We live in a bubble.” And I’m like, “Do we thought?” He’s like, “Yes we do.” And so I just had to kind of vent that because it was a wakeup call to me again. I know this, but when I see it, I really have to be reminded of how much of a bubble I live in. There’s no resolution other than I was angry. I came home to my parents and I’m like, “No one’s wearing masks.” She’s like, “Really? Normally when I’m there, everyone has masks on.” She’s like, “Joy, just let it go. You can’t control everybody”. You can’t police people wearing – but part of me is like, I’m going to call the –

Claire: Right, I’m going to call the health department. And I mean, you could. I was on a call earlier – and I work in the events industry, so people are very, very one year – what’s the saying?

Joy: In one ear and out the other?

Claire: No. Like ear to the ground. People really want to know, are we going to be able to have in-person events in 2021. What are people thinking? How is this going? We had a call today. At the beginning, everyone’s checking in. We have this big event potentially coming up at the end of September. Are we going to be able to have it? And most of the pope that I work with live in Colorado and a couple live in California. And everyone’s like, “Yeah, things are seeming like they’re trending well. A lot of people I know are getting vaccinated. Things feel a lot more optimistic.” And then we had somebody who lives in a different, more conservative part of the country who was like, “I hate to be the Debbie Downer, but that’s not what I’m seeing.” And yeah, it’s just a reminder that, it’s not over yet, A, even though we all want it to be. You can’t let your guard down. And also that we 1000% live in a bubble.

Joy: We one hundred thousand million percent –

Claire: One gillion percent.

Joy: One billion, yeah.

Claire: Miles is in that age right now where he just says random numbers. He’s like, “Mom, I want 11 4 75 million thousand hundred 14 92 thousand dollars.” I’m like, I would also like that many dollars.

Joy: Please, may I also.

Claire: Please. Miles, that is not even a real number, but I will take it. 

Joy: The answer is the solution, really, I just kind of was like, to see it in my face, that’s so frustrating. And the other thing, too, is I feel like there’s still the echoes and the ripples of the election where people are still like, “Trump 2020.” When is that going to die down? When is that going to die down?

Claire: I think for me it would be hard, too, thinking this is where my parents are going grocery shopping.

Joy: Yes. That’s what I was angry about. My parents are senior citizens, and they wear masks, and they double up masks.

Claire: Why aren’t you guys taking care of them? Think about them. Think about my cute mom.

Joy: That’s actually really why I was mad. And part of me was like, they have no – I mean, it’s such a small town that I could see the owner of the store being like, “Well, I can’t control everybody, and all these guys have guns.” I could absolutely see the guys that I saw there are the types of guys who would be like, “You can’t tell me what to do.” 

Claire: Right, this is a free country, yeah.

Joy: I know that’s stereotyping. You can imagine what the Proud Boys looked like. Truly I’m thinking the owner of the store just doesn’t have the energy or like, “I can’t control this.” Maybe that store owner doesn’t care either, but nothing on the floor to say six feet apart. They’re not wiping anything down. The freaking cash register girl just –

Claire: Yeah, that’s egregious. 

Joy: Just. 

Claire: I know.

Joy: Anyway, okay. And breathe. And breathe.

Claire: Alright guys.

Joy: Well that’s the end of this week. It’s almost March.

Claire: We almost made it through without talking about the pandemic. I know, it’s almost March, it’s almost daylight savings. We almost made it out of the winter tunnel.

Joy: I went on a walk today in a t-shirt and shorts.

Claire: I know. I did a workout yesterday in the sun – this is the beautiful thing about Colorado. The days are getting longer. I feel like even though we turn back towards the sun in December, January I don’t really feel it. Towards the end of February, into March, I’m like, okay. Right now it’s 5 o’clock. It’s still plenty of sunlight outside.

Joy: I feel it. It’s so great.

Claire: I’m like, okay, we’re going to get there.

Joy: My tulips are coming up already, and I’m really nervous they’re going to die. Every year, I’m like it’s too early, it’s too early.

Claire: It’s too early, come back. Why are you here?

Joy: Really, really quick. The last thing I want to say, too, is are there any listeners in Texas? If you need anything or if our community can support you, you can email us or DM us. Maybe we can put something together for our community to support you guys. And we’re thinking of you.

Claire: Alright guys, well thank you for joining us for another week of This is Joy and Claire. You can find us at Instagram at @joyandclaire_. We are on Facebook, This is Joy and Claire. You can email us You can always find us and all of our episodes on our website We can’t wait to talk to you next week.

Joy: We have some that are transcribed that are on our website. Go look for it.

Claire: But it’s random ones. It’s not all of them.

Joy: It’s like the last ten ones of our This is Joy and Claire.

Claire: Yeah, so if you want to read along or send one to a friend who would rather read it, please do that. And as a reminder, the best way to support our podcast is to share us with a friend.

Joy: Share it.

Claire: We would love it if you would do that. Alright, we’ll talk to you next week.

Joy and Claire: Bye.

How we deal with taking work ‘home’ during a pandemic, taking time away from work, pandemic judgement, thoughts on Crossfit’s silence, and some steps to manage anxious thoughts.


instagram: joyandclaire_

This is Joy & Claire Episode 62: Take a Freakin’ Sick Day

Audio Length: 47:26 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys. This is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. Welcome to another week. And maybe some new listeners. I always wonder if we have new people listening.

Claire: Yeah, if you’re new, come say hi to us. Leave a review. Send us an email. Write us.

Joy: Send us some presents.

Claire: We’ll send you some presents maybe for being new. We’re more than half way through February. It feels like February always flies by after January goes really slow. Although time doesn’t exist anymore because we’ve all just been inside for 100 years.

Joy: We’ve all just been floating around in space.

Claire: As always. How’s your week going? It’s been so cold in so much of the country. We here in Colorado are used to this happening from time to time, but a lot of places are not used to this happening from time to time, and it’s been a real tough week.

Joy: Yeah, real tough week. Well, first of all, I was going to ask you on my way home today. Do you ever take work home with you?

Claire: I work from home.

Joy: No, no, no, no, no. Let me rephrase that. Not take work physically home with you because you’re physically home all the time. I should say, do you let work stay on your mind after you “punch out” for the day.

Claire: Oh yeah. It’s really hard for me. Okay, so here’s the thing I dislike the most about working from home. I’ve seen a lot of studies that very much cooperate this is my work day feels longer, but at any given moment I feel less productive. I can sit down here in my little office from 9-5, but inevitably if I go upstairs and make some lunch I’m going to end up talking to the kids for a little while or helping out with something or unloading the dishwasher. And while when I was in an office and hopefully will return to an office sooner or later, it’s not like I just sat down at my desk and didn’t stand up for eight hours. I would wander around, go say hi. If I was on my way to a meeting, I’d stop by someone’s desk and go to the kitchen.

Joy: And you’re at work.

Claire: Yeah, and you’re at work, but it’s not like I was eight uninterrupted hours of dedicated work time. But it feels more pronounced when I’m at home, so then I feel like, well I didn’t really work a full day, so I should log back on at night. So maybe not most days, but often I will then work – I will sit here at my desk from 9-5, and then I’ll get back on and finish things up from 8-9. And then last night because it was a long weekend, because we’re recording this on Tuesday, have had this meeting –

Joy: Not for people who work in healthcare.

Claire: I know.

Joy: I miss working for the government. There’s days where I’m like – I mean, the government had every holiday off, yeah.

Claire: Yeah, so the company that I work for is actually based out of London, so they’re really good about honoring regional holidays. We have offices in 11 countries around the world, so they’re really good about honoring regional holidays because I don’t know Egypt has its own holiday. So we get all of the little holidays off. But I have a meeting that is with some much higher ups that keeps getting moved around and some of the people in are Dubai and so I had this horrible, irrational fear that the meeting had been moved and was going to be first thing this morning and I wasn’t going to know about it. And of course, that fear didn’t enter my mind until 10 o’clock last night, so I got up at 10 o’clock, came downstairs, checked my email to make sure nothing had been moved. It’s like, come on. 

Joy: Yeah. It’s one of those things where I was just driving home and I was like, I just, something happened right before I left that kind of stuck in my head that is really kind of other people’s crap, and it’s so hard. I had to take a moment because it gets in my head and it almost feels like a headache but not. Definitely not a migraine, but just where you’re kind of ugh. I try to be really good about letting that crap go because it can stew. You make stories up in your head when you get home about why things are happening, and it just doesn’t do anything for me or for any of us. I was just like, I’m sure other people do that. But especially in the pandemic, I thought of people who are working from home that you can’t really shut it off when you’re done for the day because it’s always there or how do you draw boundaries around that. I know a lot of people have good practices about having separate spaces. But what if you live in an environment where you can’t have a separate room for work?

Claire: Right, that was my life until a month ago.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: It’s hard. I don’t really know. I don’t have good boundaries. I feel like my boundaries are very much around, I try really hard even if I’m thinking about it, I try not to bring my work laptop upstairs anymore. I have a separate work phone and personal phone so I don’t ever have my work emails on my personal phone. I learned that from my previous job where I put everything on my personal phone and was just like, it was horrible.

Joy: Yeah, I have a separate work phone, and I turn it off on the weekends.

Claire: But people are always like, “You know you can get work to pay for your phone if you would just combine them.” Yeah, that is not worth it to me. I will pay –

Joy: Nope, it’s not worth it.

Claire: I will pay my $100 a month phone bill to not have my work emails on my phone. Yeah, I don’t know.

Joy: Yeah, it’s not worth it. And I think that… even with my work phone, I had to set boundaries around the notifications. Even when I’m home, turning off email notifications so that it doesn’t pop up and give you the notification or preview in your home screen that you have such-and-such email because it was just driving me crazy.

Claire: Totally. And I think sometimes it helps me to just open up a Notes app on my phone and just dump. Like, okay, it’s 9 o’clock at night. And like last week, we talked about how I review tomorrow in my head, and I also review the day of in my head. And sometimes I’ll be like, oh my gosh, I totally forgot. Or shoot, I told someone I was going to get this to them and I didn’t do it. So I’ll just open up my Notes app and put that in there. And that I think is just a tried and true method for any tiny thing. Something pops in your head right as you’re falling asleep, let me just get it out of my brain so my lizard brain can stop being worried about remembering it and I can move on with my life.

Joy: Yeah, that’s just really hard. Anyone out there who works from home too that has that set up. I don’t know, anyone can really relate to that, where you’re just trying not to let it get to your head and take up your time.

Claire: And some jobs are easier and harder than other. Like Brandon, obviously he thinks about his cases and stuff after the fact, but there’s literally nothing he could be doing from home. And so for him, it’s really black and white. When you’re at work and you’re in surgery, you’re in surgery. When you’re at home, there’s nothing you can do. You can think about it or whatever. Versus for me, it’s like yeah at any given moment of the day, at 3 in the morning I could be doing work. 

Joy: Yeah, that’s true, that’s true. I think it’s really hard too in behavioral health because you think so much about the patients that are really struggling, and could you have done more. And blah blah blah. Anyway. If work is important to us, we’re going to think about it, but how do you shut it off when you go get done for the day.

Claire: I don’t know, I also feel like it has so much to do with your corporate culture, so there’s some of it that you just can’t control.

Joy: That’s so true.

Claire: Like at my last job, it was really glorified to work all day and be answering your emails all the time. I was getting calls from clients at 5 in the morning and at 8 o’clock at night. And now at my job –

Joy: Oh my God, you were a stress ball at that job.

Claire: That was horrible.

Joy: Oh my God. And it totally is the culture.

Claire: Yes. It was the culture, and people would be like, “Oh my gosh, I was emailing him at 10 o’clock last night,” and it was like, “Ooo, you were up until 10, I should have been up until 10.”

Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That martyr thing of I’m working the hardest. It’s so bad, it’s so bad.

Claire: I remember one time my boss – this was towards the end of me working at this job when I was like, I don’t want to work here – my boss was so sick that she could barely even talk on the phone and she was like, “Well, I’m going to take this call from my bed. I’m just sitting in my bed answering my emails.” I was like, take a freakin’ sick day.

Joy: No. Take a sick day.

Claire: And that was when I remember thinking, what do I want out of this job? I was like, I don’t want to move up. I don’t want my boss’s job. She’s miserable.

Joy: Yeah, exactly. And that was the culture at my previous job where you were expected to work 80 hours a week and just be so out of control workaholic that that was really glorified. And when I came to Kaiser, it was such good boundaries. You’re not expected to work at all hours, and you actually can’t because you’re working with patient information so you can’t access anything from home. Well, managers can, but you know what I’m saying. So I just think the thing that hit me too was in 2020, and I realize that I have a position that I’m very lucky that I get to earn time off and I get vacation days and I get sick days, but I recently was on the phone with our HR person and I was talking about some other things that I had going on with my HR account. I had some questions. And she was like, “By the way, you’re not earning PTO right now.” And I was like, “What?” She’s like, “You’re maxed out on PTO.” And I was like, “What are you talking about?” She goes, “Yeah, you stopped earning PTO in December,” which thank God it was only a month, but if I hadn’t had asked. First of all, I knew that there was a cap, but I was like, for sure I haven’t been in the company long enough where I’ve capped out at PTO. But because 2020 we didn’t go anywhere, we didn’t take days off, I was like holy crap. So I immediately started scheduling days off this month because I need to start earning it and taking my days accruing it again. But it just kind of hit me too that wow, I also equated – and this is kind of a given – but I equated taking days off to going somewhere as opposed to just taking time for yourself. And because we can’t go anywhere, you still need to take time for yourself and you need to unplug from work. So that’s where I also kind of attribute to me getting sick because I was just working and not taking time off, not taking care of myself.

Claire: it wasn’t even occurring to you.

Joy: It wasn’t even occurring to me. So that was another wake-up call.

Claire: It’s interesting because our business, the company that I work for, their initiative at the first half of last year was that every single employee of the company of 11,000 people had to take 75% of their PTO before the end of the first half of the year to get the cost of unused PTO off the books. And that was one of their measure to not have to lay people off. So all of us took like 1-2 days off a week for two months basically. And my company I work for has really generous PTO. If you’ve been with the company for more than a couple of years, you get like 20 or 30 days of PTO a year and in Colorado you can roll over up to another 40 hours of PTO or 35 hours. So some people have like 40 days of PTO. To try and just use that incrementally  over the course of two months, I mean 40 day is 8 straight weeks of PTO. So anyway.

Joy: You’re like, “See you later.”

Claire: Right. And so I did have to take a bunch of PTO, but it was not relaxing at all because basically we more or less were told, you still have to do your job but we’re only allowing you to work four days a week. So everyone was taking these random days off.

Joy: Yes, so then you’re doing more in less amount of time, and that stresses you out too.

Claire: Right. And I go into this with Brandon sometimes about being home and being a mom and I think a lot of parents and just people in general deal with this is that he’ll be like, “Okay, go do what you need to do. Go to the gym, go for a walk, go get your eyebrows waxed, whatever.” I’m like, yeah but if I leave the house for an hour and then come back and have to make up for that hour that I was gone, it’s not relaxing for me to be gone. If I come back and the kitchen hasn’t been cleaned, whatever, I have to feel like I’m making up for that time. So it’s the same kind of thing. These days off aren’t relaxing because I have to come back – it just was very scattered. So of course I will take any day over having been laid off, but it was just, wow, this is not relaxing and yet there goes all my PTO>

Joy: Yeah, exactly. And I think that was my purpose too of not really taking PTO last year is I’m like, “Where are we going?” So speaking of going places and traveling, I’m going to bring up a little petty topic, but I have a hard time – and I’ve probably said this before – but I have a hard time seeing people on vacation. You know, I’m sure there’s protocol and things people can do to really be safe. One of my friends mentioned to me recently, now’s probably the safest time to travel because they’re disinfecting like crazy. I’m like, yeah, that’s true. I don’t want to say more safe. I don’t have actual, factual data about that, but in theory you could say yeah, it’s probably more safe because they’re disinfecting like crazy.

Claire: Or just as safe as it ever was.

Joy: Yeah. But I see people traveling, and my immediate gut reaction is how dare you, that’s so selfish, we’re in a pandemic. And then I saw this news story on our local news last night that, I don’t know, maybe it was national. I love Lester Holt with Nightly News. I love him so much. “I’m Lester Holt. Take care and…” whatever. So he –

Claire: Whatever it is.

Joy: Take care of yourselves and each other, I think it is. And it was a story about this fire department who I think they were put on leave or something. They had some type of –

Claire: Like a required sabbatical or something.

Joy: Yeah, I don’t know if they were fired. 

Claire: Or not sabbatical, furlough.

Joy: Right, on some type of punishment if you will because they were all posting online that they traveled internationally.

Claire: Oh, not a furlough. They were suspended.

Joy: Suspended, yes, yes, yes, yes. Some type of consequence let’s say because they were traveling together and they were all posting this online on Facebook. “Hey, we’re having this great…” I think it was a weeding they all went to and they traveled for. And I was just like, woah, that’s really a big deal to have that type of consequence, whether it be suspended from work or whatever, when these are fire fighters traveling for someone’s wedding. Plenty of people are doing that, but why are they being singled out. But then it made me think. I talk to a lot of my friends who are adamant about not traveling, and then I have a couple of friends who are traveling like there’s not a pandemic and I secretly judge them.

Claire: It’s not a secret, we all know.

Joy: It’s not a secret. I don’t name names.

Claire: You anonymously judge.

Joy: I anonymously, yeah. My gut reaction is, we’re in a pandemic, we can wait to travel. But on the other hand, I’m sitting here watching – okay, this is another thing I have to get to by the way. Don’t let me forget about Mike Birbiglia’s joke about parents in the pandemic versus people with no kids in the pandemic.

Claire: Okay.

Joy: You’ll laugh really hard. But I think about Scott and I just being so antsy to go somewhere and do something. But I’m like, everyone else is in that boat. So do you take a trip for your mental health? Or those types of things I toss around. At the end of the day, all I can think of is I would not feel good. I wouldn’t feel like I was – we’re in a group project with the entire world, and I want to be the person that’s actually trying to help the problem of this freakin’ pandemic that’s been going on for over a year now.

Claire: I know. I mean, I think I see it a little bit less intensely than you do.

Joy: You mean traveling?

Claire: Yes. Probably. I can see a lot more – I personally see there to be other reasons and angles where I’m not like – it doesn’t feel as black and white right now as it did in June or May. And I think that there are smart ways to do it. I think that there is also, however, the reality that a lot of people are traveling COVID positive knowingly. People are putting strain on communities that don’t have a lot of resources. So those are the types of questions I think people need to be asking. But I think we’re at the point where – and I think a lot of people would argue this about a lot of the decisions that have been made and a lot of the things that people have been told not to do. What’s that balance between your mental health versus living by the rules? And I think for you, you’re a real rule follower. 

Joy: Totally.

Claire: And so for you it stresses you out to think about doing something that is not in the rule book.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: And for you it would not be a stress reliever to go on vacation. You’d be stressed out about not doing vacation practically.

Joy: Yes, and all I want to do is share with my friends and post it on Facebook and take beautiful photos, but the whole time I’d be like, “I’m being judged for traveling.” First of all, it’s not that I care what people think. But I also think I don’t want to be a part of the problem, and I don’t want to be perceived as part of the problem. So it’s like that whole Gretchen Rubin Four Tendencies. My tendency is to be, what is it? An obliger?

Claire: Yeah, the one that’s like okay, rules? Got it. I will follow the rules.

Joy: Rules? Got it. I will follow these rules.

Claire: I think that there are at this point, that there are more and safer and less safe ways to be traveling if you are. I think there is a fairly safe way to do it. Nothing is completely safe, and of course there are a horror stories abounding. I haven’t clearly gone anywhere. But I don’t know, I wish I had. I wish I’d been able to go somewhere. Where is the first place you want to go, other than LA?

Joy: Hawaii. I would take the first flight to Kona. I just want to be on a beach. Here’s where I’m at mentally. This is so stupid. I need to stop doubting my own thoughts, but it just feels dumb in the whole grand scheme of things. But the other day I was craving sunshine on my limbs so badly that I was contemplating going to a tanning bed, which is, A, so not sanitary and, B, – I might as well travel if I’m going to a tanning bed. I might as well get on a plane at that point, right? And it’s also very not good for your skin. But I was so – I was like, I need sunshine. I don’t care if it’s fake. I need rays hitting my body. And that’s where I was at.

Claire: I felt that way about being submerged in a body of water. To the point where I was like, I haven’t submerged myself in a body of water since summer 2019. So we went to a hotel for our anniversary, and I jumped in the indoor pool, and I was like, “This is what I needed. I needed warm water over the top of my head.” You know?

Joy: I just need something. I was day dreaming about swimming in the ocean and going to our favorite beach. I was going there in my mind. I know exactly how it feels, the exact place.

Claire: I think I’ve been struggling, too – I think we talked about last week hitting the pandemic wall, but I’m starting to think of, you know, we keep talking about, “Oh when we went to LA. That was our last big hurrah.” That will be a year next week.

Joy: I was thinking about that.

Claire: And somehow hitting that milestone was like, ugh. 

Joy: It kind of hurts my stomach to think about how, yeah, we’re not going to go down that plan because I will talk for days about that trip. And everyone has heard it, pretty much ten times in the last two months. So let me talk really quickly about the Mike Birbiglia comedy show that we virtually went to. If you’re not familiar with Mike Birbiglia, he’s a comic. He’s amazing. He has a ton of comedy specials. He’s been around. I think he’s my age, in his early 40’s. So he’s been around the comedy scene for quite some time. If you have never seen The New One, I believe it’s on Netflix. His special called The New One is fantastic, especially if you’re a new parent. It is the most beautiful show that I’ve ever seen. He did it in New York. He had a show there for months, and he just did that.

Claire: I haven’t seen it. I’ll have to check it out.

Joy: Oh my God, Claire, you would love it. It’s so good. It’s so good. It’s all about how him and his wife decided whether or not they were going to have kids and what happened when they made that decision. It’s just so cute, so cute. I actually want to watch that tonight. So he did this virtual show on Zoom, and you bought tickets and they send you the link. So we’re in this virtual show with a thousand other people. I was like, oh my God, Claire, we could probably get like 50 people. But he charged like $25 a ticket, had a thousand people, and did two shows a night. That’s like $50,000.

Claire: That’s amazing.

Joy: That’s amazing. Anyway, not to compare ourselves to Mike Birbiglia because he’s definitely in a completely different class. 

Claire: I’m sitting here thinking, he just did that on Zoom? That is a logistical gamble.

Joy: But to be fair, he had an amazing set up. He had cameras. He had a team that was managing people who were going off mute. Because he didn’t want to hear laughter. So he wanted people to be off mute, but he was like. Hey, if you’re going to talk, mute yourself. I just want to hear laughter. 

Claire: Oh wow.

Joy: So it was really cool. Because we could hear everybody laughing. Scott and I were muted because we wanted to talk about the show. We didn’t want to be the annoying people.

Claire: That’s a gamble from an event organizer standpoint.

Joy: Totally. I was so impressed though because he had probably a group of 5-10 people who were moderating and would mute people the second they heard talking. So it wasn’t disruptive, but it was really cool because a thousand people you could hear laughter, you could see everyone on the camera at home. And then he would all of the sudden be like, “Put so-and-so on camera” or “on the screen.” So they would do that split screen, and they would single someone out, and there would be a couple there with their dogs. He’d say, “I love how you’re just on the couch with your dogs,” and it was just really cool and interactive in that way. 

Claire: wow.

Joy: But one of the jokes – he did this whole opening and talked to some people in the audience, and then he worked out some of his jokes. And it was really cool to see some of his process. He has a whole bulletin board behind him of ideas of jokes that he’s working on and how he’s going to work them together. But one of the jokes was called parenting in the pandemic. And I’m totally butchering it, but please just listen to Mike Birbiglia because I’m sure it will be on – he also has a podcast called Working it Out, which is fantastic. I need to take a breath. I’m getting really excited.

Claire: [laughing]

Joy: I just love him so much. He’s so, so funny. And it’s clean humor. He’s not like – I mean, dirty comedy has a place, but it sometimes makes you feel uncomfortable.

Claire: And also sometimes I’m like, is this funny or am I laughing because I’m uncomfortable?

Joy: [laughing] 100%. And it’s almost always I’m uncomfortable. Anyway. So one of his jokes is parenting during the pandemic. He’s like, “There’s two groups of people in the pandemic. There’s parents, who are like get me out of my house, get me away from my kids.” He’s like, “They’re climbing the walls.” And then he’s like, “And then you have the people without kids who are like, ‘I’m bored.’” He’s like, “And I haven’t been bored since the 80’s.” It’s so funny. I’m like, yeah, that’s true. I looked at Scott, and I’m like, “Yeah, we’re so bored.” And then there’s people like, “I hate you.” 

Claire: And I’m lying in a princess tent to hide from my kids.

Joy: That is accurate.

Claire: “I’m bored.”

Joy: “I’m bored.”

Claire: So true. So true.

Joy: It’s very true. Alright. I’ll give a quick health update because it will take five seconds. I’m feeling great, no changes. I am actually worried about going to get – I don’t know why I’m worried about this, but I’m treating it as a report card. But I have to get updated blood work just to see where I’m at, to see if it’s improved. And I’m really nervous about it to a point where I’m putting it off. And I should go tomorrow and just get it done. But my naturopath, last time I saw her, I think it was last week. I was like, “I’m nervous to get my updated blood work.” She’s like, “Don’t be nervous. It’s just data.” Okay. But yeah. Things are just going really well. They’re trending upwards. That’s all I’m going to say right now. Next time, hopefully I’ll have my bloodworm done and it won’t be scary.

Claire: I think that’s reasonable to be worried about that because it’s like – I think with anything medical – well, and going into this, you’ve had this experience of you can’t really necessarily trust what your body is telling you.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: You feel better, and the last thing that you want is what if you get in there and they’re like, “Well, actually your labs went down” or “Your labs went back up.” Things are worse. It’s like, what?

Joy: Which I know it’s not because I feel better. Every symptom that I have had that I started with with Graves’ has improved. Every single one of them – I even look, like my face. I don’t know if you notice, probably because you haven’t seen me in person, but my skin kind of looked ashy. Like in some of my photos, I look back and I’m like, “I kind of look ashy.” And I feel like I have color back in my skin. Everything is going better, so I feel like that’s just a silly fear that I have that the western medicine doctors are going to be like, “Oh yeah, she’s doing naturopathic medicine,” but that’s just kind of where my head goes.

Claire: Well, that’s exciting. I don’t have any updates to give. No updates from me. Nothing has changed. What did you guys do – oh, you just talked about what you did. What did you do for Valentine’s Day? Oh, you just talked at length about that. We ordered Valentine’s dinner from the secret Vietnamese restaurant in Longmont where you can only order on Instagram and you pick it up from the back door of Tangerine.

Joy: Oh my gosh, yes. You’ve told us about this.

Claire: Yes. It’s not as secret as I’m making it sound. You know, the health department knows about them. But they’re great and we had their really fancy Valentine’s dinner and that was fun. Brandon got me some roses. I was like, “Brandon, I really appreciate this. And also, the next time you bring me home flowers, please don’t bring me just a bundle of uncleaned roses” because dethroning roses on your own is the worst. At a flower shop, if you work at a florist, you have a little tool that does it for you. But if you just get a bunch of unclean roses from the store, you have to – like, I cut myself. I had to wear a Band-Aid. I was like, well.

Joy: This is someone who, like a florist pro.

Claire: Like, I can’t just put them in water without doing it.

Joy: No, you can’t. It’s against your principles.

Claire: But it was lovely. And we paid Miles $5 to put himself to bed, and it kind of worked.

Joy: How did that go?

Claire: It was okay. We set him up with a Lego that he hadn’t started yet that we knew was well within his range of abilities. And he came out a couple times to show us how he was going with the Lego.

Joy: Oh God, Scott bought me that – I posted it on stories and then I totally bailed. He bought me the VW bus Lego set.

Claire: Yes.

Joy: Okay, everyone out there that doesn’t do Legos is going to make so much fun of me. But I am very used to the sets that have the numbered bags, if you know what I’m talking about. It has a set and it tells you, when you open the directions you’re going to start with bag number one. All of the pieces for the next 20 pages are going to be in bag number one. Bus doesn’t have the bag, and it’s like 1000 pieces. I’m like, I can’t do this. So the second I took it out, I was like, “Where’s the numbers on the bag?” I put it all back in the box, and I was like, I got to do this when I’m in a better mindset to actually sift through all the pieces to put this thing together. Maybe I just need to Google how to do it, but I’m just super intimidated. It’s really funny.

Claire: That is hilarious.

Joy: I’m also not a pro at Legos. So let’s follow up on some of the topics that people wrote about. And I think that it’s worth talking about for just a mere moment, not to stir up drama, but someone in the CrossFit world said, “This might be too much of a landmine topic” – and this is also a listener who I love dearly. They’re like one of my favorite people. They’ve written in quite a few times. “This might be too much of a landmine topics to navigate and may end up causing more trouble than it’s worth, but what’s the deal with how many CrossFit athletes are not wearing masks and are surprisingly quiet about recent political events? Would be interesting to hear about ties between the type of folks drawn to CrossFit or other high-intensity fitness and conservative leaning/the military, but that’s a beast of a topic so I totally understand if you’re like, ‘Mmm, no.’ LOL.”

Claire: I mean, it is a beast of a topic, but it’s something we’ve sort of talked about before. The truth is that a lot of CrossFit gyms originated with military families, police families, fire fighter families, the types of people who you might traditionally think to be more of a conservative background and lifestyle and who are more of those blue-collar professions. And also, in parts of the country, there were more CrossFit hot spots in parts of the country where Rich Froning lived in Tennessee and the southeast and places. Of course, it was very, very big in California. But I think you have somebody like Greg Glassman who started CrossFit and he is a raging libertarian, and that was kind of his circle. So not only do you have the aspect of it being, first, early adopters being heavily military, a lot of people in the different forces and then also the immediate expanding circle from the center being people who are very libertarian. I think those two factors mean that you do have a lot of CrossFit founders and a lot of people who were there at the beginning of the sport who are more conservative. What we have seen is that people who are more conservative politically have been less in favor of strict mask rules and less in favor of business closures. I think the other thing is that in a lot of states there are not mask mandates for indoor business. The business itself decides. In Colorado, it’s a mandate. Where you go, if you are going to be indoors in a public place, you have to wear a mask. It is illegal not to do so.

Joy: I just remember someone picked a fight and they were like, “It’s a law.” It’s not a law.

Claire: Even though it’s not technically a law, you can have legal repercussions for not following an executive order. Sorry about the loophole there. Even though it’s not a law, it’s still illegal not to do it. That’s Colorado. In California, they took it quite a few steps further and just said for the most part gyms can’t be open. And a lot of places in the country, they just basically said you can’t have gyms indoors. And a lot of places in the world, gyms haven’t been open for a year. I wish that we had seen more CrossFit athletes being vocal about their opinions, ideally in support of mask mandates and everyone wearing masks and all that kind of thing. But I also think that, and politically for that matter, but I also think there’s no incentive for those people to do that. For them, they can sit there all day and say, “This is a place for fitness and positivity,” and their followers would be like “Thank you for saying that. Oh my gosh, finally, somebody who says it’s just a place – “

Joy: “Finally, someone stepped forward.”

Claire: “Finally, someone stepped forward and helped – “

Joy: “No one’s talking to me about it.” That’s another thing. I can’t stand when people say, “Not enough people are taking about this.”

Claire: Yeah, “Not enough people are talking about we should just not talk about anything.” And I followed one, I even forget who it was because I just blocked it out. But basically, she was like, “Someone has messages me asking why I’ve been silent about recent events. I am a coach. It’s my responsibility to have a neutral platform and make it as a safe and accepting place for all.” I was like, I’m unfollowing you immediately. But that’s the thing.

Joy: Neutral?

Claire: Right. That’s the thing is they’re like – and her entire comment section was like, “thank you,” “finally,” and people being like, “yes, this.” Which we need to retire “yes, this.”

Joy: Yeah, we have to retire “yes, this” and “not enough people are talking about” –

Claire: I think that’s what it is, is there’s no incentive and that community is so ready to just be so affirming of people not saying anything. And also, they’re also so quick to be so judging of people, like, “Well, I can’t believe you would say something like this. I’m just here for fitness.” So it’s always the followers problems of people being like, “Stay in your lane,” and it doesn’t feel safe for those people. And I don’t think it’s right, and I don’t even want to go so far as to say I empathize with that, but if your livelihood is your Instagram account, then I could see how it would feel – maybe I can’t see how it would feel. I don’t want to make apologies or excuses for people who aren’t using their platforms to speak up about what they believe in, but if your livelihood is your Instagram account then your thought process looks a little bit different.

Joy: Yeah, for sure.

Claire: So that’s my –

Joy: Which I think is another problem.

Claire: It’s a huge problem. So problematic.

Joy: With, I would say, white women it’s a problem.

Claire: Oh, I mean, we are the worst.

Joy: Yeah, white women it’s a problem if they’re like, “I have to stay neutral.” I’m like, you don’t get to do that.

Claire: You don’t get to do that. You staying neutral is not being neutral. There’s no such thing as being neutral. There’s no such thing as not being political. If you are saying, “I just want to keep politics out of it,” that’s a political stance.

Joy: That’s a political stance. And you know, we’ve said this before. People leave comments or reviews, and when we started talking about politics last year – we’ve talked about it before, but we really got into it last year – is when we got the worst reviews. And really mean reviews.

Claire: Mean!

Joy: People being like, “This just turned political.” I’m kind of like, look, I’ve been called annoying, political, “Joy’s too political,” whatever you want to say. I’m like, I’m not –

Claire: I’m not sorry. I’m not sorry you feel that way.

Joy: I’m not sorry, and I refuse to be quiet about things that are important. I’m not going to be the white person that’s just going to, “I’m going to be neutral about this” because that’s a part of the problem. And if you don’t see that –

Claire: It’s also not my job to make you see that.

Joy: No. No, no, no, no.

Claire: And I think that there is this – you know, it is really hard, and we do have the position of this is not our full-time job. This is a hobby for us. We make very little money off of this. But also, we recently cut ties with the sponsor for supporting viewpoints that we thought were wildly irresponsible. You may have noticed you haven’t heard ads lately. We’re not in a position to be calling – it didn’t feel so egregious that we wanted to call huge attention to it. Whatever, it is what it is. You know better, you do better. You learn and you move on. I just think that there is so much to be said for the position that we’ve backed ourselves into by feeling like content creators owe us neutrality, and if you listen to someone on a podcast or you read their blog or you follow them on Instagram, this assumption that they now owe anything to you. But I think especially the feeling that people are like, it’s my right to get upset if you say things that I don’t believe in or you say things that I perceive to be against what I believe. And we’ve said this a million times, no one’s forcing you to follow anyone. But at the same time, people just get so mean.

Joy: Well, here’s what I would ponder is are they uncomfortable because that person is standing up for something that they have to think about? And I think there’s something to that. I’m not saying it’s every case, but I think there’s something to when all of the sudden someone you go to for pretty photos of cupcakes all of the sudden posts a stance about a very difficult political climate that makes you have to think about things and how you may be contributing to the problem. And I would venture to say – and I would like someone to prove me wrong, but I would venture to say that 99.9% of the comments of “stay in your lane” are from white people.

Claire: And we talked about this last time too, or two episodes ago, that cognitive dissonance, that feeling of not knowing how to process finding out that the world that you’ve lived in is not the world you thought it to be and not knowing where to go with that, especially if you’re in a community that also is acting and feeling that same way that you are. It’s a lot easier to lash out than it is to turn inward.

Joy: Exactly. And I want to read this post in a second because it was just so well said, just about racism and how people talk about it, or I should say white people talk about it. But I want to say really quickly about the CrossFit thing is I still don’t think they’re doing a great job of drawing attention or making posts or statements about what it going on in the world. They’ve talked with the new leadership, and I don’t know the new leader so I can’t say what his plans are specifically. And I’d love for people to write in about that. But I don’t see anything outright about what they’re doing to be a more inclusive space. And that concerns me because I don’t go to a CrossFit gym anymore. My gym is not affiliated, and that’s not the reason why I go to that gym. I go to that gym because –

Claire: We actually get this question a lot. People are like, whatever happened to CrossFit Jai. CrossFit Jai is just now called Rocky Mountain Athletics. It’s the same exact – 

Joy: Yeah, Rocky Mountain Athletics, yeah.

Claire: – gym that Joy has been going to this whole time.

Joy: Yeah, same thing. And I’m going to keep going there because I love the people, but they chose to make the stance of we’re not standing for this back when CrossFit was in the turmoil of all the shit show. But that doesn’t mean that I won’t go to a CrossFit gym ever again. I just don’t want to go into a space that isn’t a representation of saying, “We welcome everyone. Everyone is welcome here.”

Claire: So I feel like we didn’t open too big of a can of worms. I think there’s –

Joy: Yeah, the CrossFit van is gone.

Claire: Although it actually is driving to Boulder as we speak because CrossFit main office is in Boulder.

Joy: Okay, so let me read this post really quick. I saw this on – do you remember Malcom-Jamal Warner, everybody? Do you know Malcom-Jamal Warner? Theo from The Cosby Show. Anyway, he had this on his Instagram, and it’s from Scott Woods, and it says, “The problem is that white people” – and if you guys want to go to Malcom-Jamal Warner’s Instagram, it’s posted there if you actually want to see the post. “The problem is that white people see racism as conscious hate when racism is bigger than that. Racism is a complex system of social and political levers and pullies set up generations ago to continue working on the behalf of whites at other people’s expense, whether whites know or like it or not. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people. It’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another, access is another, ignorance is another, apathy is another, and so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air. You take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There’s no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It’s a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything.” [sigh] So good. Because the thing that I can’t stand is when shit hits the fan and everyone feels like they have to – this happened last year when I saw so many posts of people being like, “Look at this book that I’m reading” and a lot of white people drawing attention to themselves all of the sudden to be like, “Look, I’m not racist.” And it’s like, we’re living in a racism society.

Claire: Yeah, there was one that, I think it was Brené or Glennon, they posted and it said, “White supremacy is not the elephant in the room. It is the room.”

Joy: It is the room. So beautifully and simply stated. Yeah. So again, that was on Malcom-Jamal Warner’s Instagram. It is by Scott Woods. And I also just want to acknowledge because it is black history month. I have been listening to a lot of podcasts with black guests. My playlist is pretty diverse, but I really specifically loved the interview with Amanda Gorman on Hilary Clinton’s podcast this week. Hilary Clinton’s podcast is You and Me Both. And Amanda is just obviously an amazing human, an amazing artist, but the interview that she had was just beautiful. Along the lines of what your feed looks like, I really encourage you to not just during black history month but every day seek voices from people who don’t look like you. The other one that I have been listening to lately is Undistracted with Brittany Packnett Cunningham. It’s called Undistracted, so if you just search for Undistracted with Brittany Packnett Cunningham. She also has an awesome Instagram.

Claire: Okay, did we have any more questions to answer today?

Joy: Yes.

Claire: Let’s do one more short-ish one.

Joy: Let’s do one more short-ish one. This is a good one because it plugs into therapy hat. It says, “Can you do a podcast” – and we’ll just, we’ll cover it, we’ll do more if people want to write in with more questions – “how to trust others in dealing with negative thoughts. I know I’m not the only one that struggles with this, as many others have experienced anxious thoughts. I’m wondering if you have any advice on dealing with the negative thoughts that run through your head or how to deal with trusting your anxiety over the facts in front of you.” So obviously 2020 has kicked all of our anxiety into high gear, and I think the best thing that you can do, if you have from 1-10 if you’re at an 8 with anxiety, meaning it really interferes with your daily life. You don’t have good friendships or you’re second guessing everything you say or you’re nervous all the time or you feel like you can’t do anything right at work, those negative thoughts really constantly run through your head. I would really encourage you to talk to a therapist because that’s something that you want to work on a little bit more strongly. I can’t give you a snippet of a tip in a podcast to be like, yeah, this is going to work for you. But I will say it’s normal. Being a human being, we’re going to be living with a normal level of anxiety. So it’s never not going to be there, but when it is there you just have to recognize it and do that mindfulness exercise where you can take it out and be like, okay this is something that I’m worried about right now, let’s break it down. What are the facts here? And kind of do the facts list of, is this true or am I just worrying about something that could for couldn’t happen? And I think that’s another thing is check the facts, and if it’s kind of just ruminating through your feelings you’re like, oh I’m just worrying about something that I’m not sure about yet, that’s when you want to say, alright I’m going to do everything I can, that’s actually not true, so let’s push that aside. And that’s kind of simplifying. I know it’s not as easy to just push thoughts aside. But really, if you’re thinking about something that’s like you’re just ruminating on it, try to sit down and just bare bones is it factual. And then the reminder that we can’t worry about the future.

Claire: One thing that I think about – and I’ve had diagnosed anxiety at multiple points in my life and also postpartum anxiety was part of my postpartum depression diagnosis – so again, we are using these terms. I always want to be clear about that. We don’t say, “Oh, I have such bad anxiety” because we’re nervous about an event. There’s a normal amount of anxiousness that a human feels leading up to a situation.

Joy: Yeah, situational anxiety is totally normal.

Claire: Versus a chronic, general anxiety that’s actually a mental diagnosis. Not to say that situational anxiety isn’t also difficult to go through, but what we’re really referring to is full-on anxiety. One thing that has weirdly always helped me is I’ve read a lot of interviews with people who had horrible, and I feel like this is from a Ted Talk as well, who had horrible, horrible things happen to them – and this might even be something that the Terrible, Thanks for Asking lady talks about. And you talk to these people who have horrible, horrible, horrible things happen to them, and what they say is no amount of worrying about this could have ever prepared me for what it actually ended up being like, and I wish that I wouldn’t have spent that time worrying because it just took away from that moment. But the reality, what happened was so different and so much worse than what I could have prepared for that what’s the point of even pretending that you can worry about the future. In a way, that sounds horrible of being like having a truly horrible thing happen to you is going to be so much different and so much worse than what you can imagine. I think that could be debilitating. But for me it actually feels kind of freeing, that no matter how crappy I let myself believe that the future could be, I can’t imagine what a true horrible tragedy would be like and so I need to just not even go there because to me that sort of relieves me of the duty of having to imagine horrible scenarios. Because it’s like the people who have been there have said you can’t imagine this.

Joy: Yeah, and I think the piece about anxiety is we are constantly worried about the future, the things that may or may not happen. That is very real. We’re always worrying about that, but I think of Brené Brown where she’s like – oh that’s what it is. It’s “worrying is not preparation” and I love that. Worrying is not preparation. You are doing yourself no favors by worrying about something. And I’m saying extreme amounts of worry. So I think of Brené Brown’s quote of you can’t beat vulnerability to the punch. Meaning, taking myself as an example, no matter how much I tell myself, “Okay, Cadet’s not our dog. She belongs to CCI. We’re just going to train her and she’s going to go off to training.” Like, I’m trying to paper myself to not lose it when we pass her off to advanced training. I started to do that preparing and trying to beat vulnerability to be like, “It’s going to be fine.” And I just had to come to the realization that it’s going to hurt like hell when we turn her in because we’re so in love with her that I’m just going to bawl my eyes out. I just have to come to terms with I can’t prepare it away. I can’t beat it to the punch. I can’t try to plan and tell myself all this narrative of like, “She’s going to be a service dog. She’s not our dog.” I tried to do that so much in the beginning, trying to prepare myself to be like, then I won’t cry. Because my whole goal in life is to not ugly cry because it scares me. But it’s just going to happen, and I just have to be okay with it. So we can’t beat vulnerability to the punch, we just can’t.

Claire: And for me, the phrase that I said a minute ago actually resonated with me when I said it, of “relieving me of the duty of anxiety.” It really feels like it’s my job, that I am beholden to this, that I have for some reason been signed up for this by some higher power to worry about this. And if I don’t worry about it, it could happen. Tina Fey talks about that in her book Boss, this really funny line that’s like, “Not everyone can control outcomes with their vigilance, but it’s my lot in life and I have to accept it.” 

Joy: That’s so true.

Claire: That’s how I feel, Tina Fey.

Joy: Sometimes people need a tangible thing to do. Sometimes it really does help to write it out and put it in a jar and put it in a shelf or burn it or something like that. But truly just know at the end of the day that we’re all walking around worrying about things that we care about and that it’s normal. But if you truly are at a level where it’s interfering with your daily life is when it’s okay to ask for help.

Claire: And I also think – I always like to say this – there’s no minimum prerequisite for going to therapy.

Joy: Oh, absolutely.

Claire: There’s no minimum amount of messed up that you have to be to go to therapy.

Joy: Right, right, right. That’s very true.

Claire: You know.

Joy: I’m just thinking in the terms of like, if you’re really not functioning. But also at the same time, therapy’s great for anybody.

Claire: And if you think, “Man, this might not be derailing my plans but I feel like I could feel better than this. I’m just curious to know if I have to live like this.” 

Joy: Therapists might be able to help you with that and give you some great tools along the way.

Claire: And you know, if not, then oh well. You know, as a reminder, you guys always feel free to email us at for help identifying therapy options in your area. We also have an Instagram highlight called “Therapy” and it kind of walks you through the thought process of how to find your first therapist or find a new therapist if you’re not sure where to get started. So please use this as a resource. And I actually was talking to a friend about this just today. She’s a new mom, and she’s just one of those very sensitive, emotional people. Which I know, you can’t relate to at all. And there’s some minor thing with her baby that she brought up kind of on a lark to the pediatrician. The pediatrician was like, “I’m sure it’s nothing, but let’s have this other doctor look at him.” And she was like, “What do you mean let’s have another doctor look at them?” And it put her down this whole thing. And while I’m sitting here trying to say, “Hey, rationally your doctor’s just trying to be thorough, and I’m sure if there was reason to worry they would tell you,” her brain is just thinking this lifelong illness, like we’re going to uncover brain cancer. What I had to tell her was, “Listen, we spend so much of our lives reading about conscious leadership and self-awareness and vulnerability, and we validate the crap out of all of our feelings because to heal our inner child from being told that it’s not okay to cry. But there are some parts of our lives when you need to just grab yourself by the shoulders and go, ‘Stop freaking out.’ Don’t validate your fear.” And you know, there’s only so much validating that you owe yourself. At some point you need to just go, “Hey, cut it out.” 

Joy: Yeah, knock it off. 

Claire: So, if that’s helpful for you, cut it out.

Joy: Just knock it off, yeah. And truly, maybe you are having the worst day. I love how we ended our last podcast because people really needed that. You’re having the worst day, and I’ve never heard of a worst day. You win the prize. 

Claire: You are having the worst day of anyone I know.

Joy: And we are celebrating you right now for having the worst day ever and maybe having the worst anxiety ever. You win the prize. But seriously, if you need help, email us.

Claire: Please.

Joy: We are very here for you.

Claire: Tell us now. Alright guys, well thank you for spending another week with us. Please leave us a review on iTunes, on Spotify, wherever you find us.

Joy: It really helps.

Claire: Please tell a friend about us. That’s the easiest way that you can help us is to get a friend to listen to us.

Joy: Let’s move up the charts.

Claire: Send this episode to a friend. Get them to listen to it. That’s a huge, huge, huge, huge help. And we are so excited to talk to you next week. We’ll be back. We hope that you will be too.

Joy: We will always be here.

Claire: We will always be there. Talk to you then.

Joy: We’re never going away.

Claire: Bye.

Joy: Bye.

Evie’s second birthday and birth story, hot doctors, hitting the pandemic wall, and pandemic relationship talk.

Brene Brown Podcast

The Gottman Institute

HuffPost Hitting the Pandemic Wall


instagram: joyandclaire_

This is Joy & Claire Episode 61: Pandemic Walls

Episode Date: February 11, 2021

Audio Length: 51:07 minutes 

Note: Unclear word at [00:37:54.19].

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. And it’s Thursday, and we’re doing okay. We’re getting through the week. How are you?

Claire: We’re getting there. We’re recording this on Monday. When you guys hear this, Evie will be two years old.

Joy: Two years old, I can’t even believe it.

Claire: I mean, I kind of can. I think a lot of it is because people are like, oh my gosh, my kid, how did the time fly. But this last year has gone by so slowly that I’m almost surprised that she’s only two.

Joy: Yeah. You feel like you should be eighteen by now from all this time that we’ve done in 2020.

Claire: We’ve spent so much time together that you could be at least five.

Joy: I always on her birthday have to reminisce about the text thread the night that you were like, “I think I’m having some contractions. I’m not sure. I’m just texting you guys.” This was around seven o’clock. It was me and Jess. You were being so nonchalant about it because you were like, no big deal. Then you called your midwife, and she was like, “Yeah, you need to send Miles to your mom’s house ASAP.” And I literally woke up to a picture of a baby. I was like, what happened? And I was that sleepy, blurry vision that I looked at my phone and I was like, is that a baby? It was so crazy. She just showed up.

Claire: I know. Just out of nowhere. I mean, not out of nowhere. Yeah, it was quick. I’ll just take a quick little jog down memory lane, a short, small, slow jog. I was in labor with Miles like three days. I was literally in labor with Miles for almost 40 hours, so when I started going into labor with Evie, it was like, oh I was only having contractions, but I was like we’re going to be here all night. I started having contractions at five or six o’clock, and she was born at eleven.

Joy: That’s crazy.

Claire: It was crazy. I didn’t love it. It was a lot, it was intense to go from 0 to 60 so quickly.

Joy: Oh yeah. I remember you were like, “I screamed so much.”

Claire: Yeah, the next day my throat was so sore. And I was like, why is my throat sore? Brandon was like, “It’s probably from the screaming.” I was like, oh, forgot about the screaming. Like heavy metal screaming. Yeah, it wasn’t like bloody murder screaming. It was some heavy metal screaming. I remember reading something that was talking about controlling your breath. And I was like, nu uh, no. If you have the wherewithal in an unmedicated labor, or a labor at all, period. If you have the wherewithal when you’re trying to get a baby out of your body to control anything about your breath or voice, no, power to you. I do not possess that. I was not in my body. At one point, Evie was so, she was going to get born right now. And I didn’t even lift my leg up, and my midwife was like, “I’m just going to hold your leg up.” Later on, she was saying something about it. I was like, “Oh, I don’t think I was in my body for that. I don’t think I remember that at all.” I was like, “Yeah, I wasn’t there for that.”

Joy: Oh my gosh, yeah. All my friends who’ve had kids have told me something similar where they’re like – or one of my best friends is like, “Yeah, the second I started having contractions I was like, yeah, I’m not doing this actually. Please give me the – “

Claire: Oh my gosh, yeah. So for those of you who are not familiar, I had a hospital labor, epidural with Miles. He was NICU, we did the whole thing. And then with Evie, I had a home birth, and there’s a lot of reasons that I won’t go into at this moment. Yeah, half way through, even just after a couple hours of contractions with Evie, I was like, “This was a bad decision.”

Joy: I made a big mistake.

Claire: I want the drugs. 

Joy: I made a big mistake.

Claire: I made a big mistake. Oh no. But it was fine. I think everyone who has done both probably thinks that. And no shame whatsoever around getting the epidural because I don’t think ever to this day in my life, nor probably ever again, will I feel just the – I could have married the anesthesiologist. I have never felt such an amazing sense of relief as I did when I got the epidural.

Joy: Was it a guy or a girl?

Claire: It was a guy. He was bald. I remember specifically because at the time, they were like, okay – I had been in labor at that point for close to 30 hours, and I was not even at one centimeter, and I was like, “I need the drugs. I can’t keep doing this.” I remember when my midwife checked me, because I said before I don’t want to get checked a lot. So she was checking me, and she was like, how are you feeling. I was like, if I’m not at least at a six or a seven… what did I say. I said, if you don’t think I’m going to be pushing within the next hour, then I don’t need an epidural. And she was like, “So, you’re at like a one.” And I just started sobbing. I was like, go get the drug man. 

Joy: Where is the man with the drugs?

Claire: Where is the man with the drugs? And so they were like, “Well if you’re about to get an epidural, then you should go ahead and try to go to the bathroom.” So I went in and tried to go to the bathroom, and the guy came in as I was in the bathroom. If you’re in active labor, going pee is kind of a process because when you sit on the toilet, anyway, it was painful. And he came in. It had gotten to the point where Miles was stuck in a bad position, so I couldn’t sit down to pee because his head was resting right on my pelvic bone, or his spine. So I just stood in the bathtub of the hospital room and peed because I couldn’t sit on the toilet. So I was just standing there just peeing. Bless everyone who was in that room and was like, “Yes, Claire, this is the choice. Do it.”

Joy: Yes, that was the choice.

Claire: Bless my doula who was holding my hand while I was just standing up and peeing all over myself. That was Plan A. Plan A was just peeing all over myself. This is labor, guys. And I heard the anesthesiologist come in, but he didn’t see me because I was in the bathroom. And he was like, “Is she still in here? Does she still need the epidural?” And I was like, “Yes!” 

Joy: Yes! I’m over here.

Claire: And it was right at seven in the morning, so I knew if he leaves this room, shift change is going to happen and it’s going to be an hour or more before I can get someone back in here. I was like, “Don’t let him leave.”

Joy: Oh my God.

Claire: But no, that was all with Miles. With Evie, it was crazy fast, to the point where I often think her birthday is the 11th, but it’s actually the 10th. Because I had already had it in my brain she’s going to be born tomorrow 2-11, great. 

Joy: Right, that’s so funny.

Claire: Anyway, happy second birthday to Evie.

Joy: Happy second birthday.

Claire: She is two going on sixteen. 

Joy: When you were talking about anesthesiologist, the reason I was asking if it was a guy or girl was I feel like in my experience from the very few surgeries that I’ve had, they’re always very hot. 

Claire: Totally. Yes. He was not unattractive. I mean, at that moment that wasn’t really my focus.

Joy: Sure. And I had two ear surgeries when I was in grad school. The first one, I was just like, oh my gosh, they’re so dreamy. And when you wake up, you’re just in a stupor. And I remember waking up and having to pee so bad. This was a four-hour surgery, so it’s like holding your bladder for four hours. I woke up and the nurse was giving me water and ice chips, whatever, and I was like, “I have to pee so bad,” and she gives me a bedpan. I was like, ah, this is what we’re doing.

Claire: You’re like, “I’m peeing in this bowl right here?”

Joy: And not a second later the anesthesiologist walks up to me and goes, “How are you?”

Claire: With your metal bowl.

Joy: I’m just in my bed peeing as he’s talking to me. This is me at like 23/24, so I’m like, “Oh my gosh, super-hot guy.”

Claire: High levels of self-consciousness.

Joy: I was so embarrassed, and he was like, “How are you?” And I’m like, “Good.” They’re always so hot.

Claire: Yes. Remember when we talked about hot optometrists?

Joy: Totally.

Claire: And it’s like, they’re right by your face, and you’re like, “Hi.” They’re like, “One or two.” You’re like, “All I see is a ten.”

Joy: Oh my gosh. I mean, every time I try to be cool I’m not cool.

Claire: The harder you try, the worse it is.

Joy: The worse it is.

Claire: That’s a known rule about being cool that the harder you try, the worse it is.

Joy: I recently had – guys, I’m married, it’s not a big deal. Last fall I was at an appointment for an ear follow up. It’s a new doctor because I haven’t seen an ENT in forever. I need to go checked to make sure everything’s going okay. I have prosthetics in my left ear, so I’m checking things out. And he walks in, and he had a mask on, but of course I’m just like –

Claire: [flirtatiously] Hi.

Joy: Trying to be cool and I wasn’t cool. Just doesn’t matter how old you are, you will never be cool around hot doctors. 

Claire: You just won’t. I would love to hear people’s stories if you want to write in and tell us your stories about waking up from anesthesia. I feel like everyone, either they have it or their dad has it. When I got my wisdom teeth taken out was the first time that I had ever been put under, and I don’t remember this at all but I apparently demanded my teeth. I was like, “I want my teeth.”

Joy: Oh yeah, I remember we had this conversation.

Claire: Yeah. 

Joy: Because remember I was escorted in the back because I had blood all over my shirt.

Claire: And when I came back for my checkup, they handed me my teeth in a bag. And I was like, “I don’t want this.” They were like, “You really did the last time you were here.” I was like, oh, that’s weird. And then Brandon’s dad is famous for one time he got a surgery and they wheeled him out and he had all this tubing in his lap and everyone was like, “What is that?” And they were like, “He demanded that this was his tubing, he had paid for it, and he was going to take it home.” 

Joy and Claire: [laughing]

Joy: Oh my God. Oh my God. I bet you nurses have a lot of stories. Dish it, dish it up. It could be anonymous, just dish.

Claire: Tell us the silliest thing. Oh my goodness. 

Joy: You want these teeth. No, I do not. 

Claire: You really did. Oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry for what I said when I was high on anesthesia.

Joy: Oh my gosh, that’s really good. 

Claire: Okay, so this week we are going to continue our randomness. As always. I say that as if that’s new as if we haven’t been doing that.

Joy: I know, I’m like, that’s not new, that’s really just the gist of the show.

Claire: So we are going to talk a little bit this week about hitting the wall. I posted about this on Instagram stories last week. There have been a lot of walls in the last year. I look back on this time last year and I think, man, the thing I was most freaked out by when we first went into lockdown, I was like, I can’t find stuff for Miles to do every day for two weeks. What am I going to do with him for two weeks? Now, it’s like, whatever, I don’t care. Go watch Sesame Street.

Joy: Like another month? We’re good.

Claire: I was thinking the other day, and I know I’ve said this before, we used to try to limit him to one movie a week. Hahahahahahaha. 

Joy: One movie a week?

Claire: Now I’m like, if it’s fewer than two per day that feels like a win. I don’t count Sesame Street and StoryBots. You’re learning, this is education. I’m learning. I learn stuff from StoryBots.

Joy: What do you learn?

Claire: I learned how the waste water treatment plant works. I didn’t know. I learned that from StoryBots.

Joy: You know, I loved those educational segments in Sesame Street. Anyone out there who remembers the milk one where you see the milk bottles and you can see the milk production. I loved crap like that. I loved it.

Claire: All those Sesame Street episodes, all literally 45 seasons, are on HBO.

Joy: Amazing. And they did that for freaking parents, and I love them for it.

Claire: We send Miles to school and he’s like, “Mom, I don’t need to go to school. I already learned this all on Sesame Street.” I’m like, well, that’s kind of mean. Sesame Street is free. However, Sesame Street does not get you out of the house. 

Joy: Would you do that with college too?

Claire: I know, right. I’m like, okay, where is the particle physics Sesame Street? Where’s the how to do your taxes Sesame Street. That’s what we need. Who’s making an adult – that would be a great podcast. I need an adult Sesame Street where somebody comes along and is like, “The letter of the day is W2.” “Today’s number is 1099.” Let’s figure out who to get on the podcast to do that.

Joy: Please someone. Someone is out there. 

Claire: Let’s call Doug. Where’s Doug?

Joy: Doug. 

Claire: Doug’s our podcast friend who actually makes real fun podcasts.

Joy: He makes for a podcast.

Claire: “The letter of the day is I-9.” Anyway, I felt like last week in a year of walls I hit another wall. There were some personal components to it, but I just feel like a lot of other people felt that way too. And I don’t know if it’s as we come around the horn of doing this for an entire year or it’s really, really, super cold and snowy in a lot of parts of the country right now which make things feel that much more difficult because you are really stuck inside. You can’t even get out for your walk. You know, last year a big snow storm felt like, “Oh, this is kind of fun. We can just sit inside.”

Joy: That was so cute, snow day.

Claire: I will punch my husband if he asks me anything ever again. 

Joy: One more question.

Claire: One more word. If he breathes in the same room as me, I will punch him in the throat.

Joy: That reminds me of a marriage hack, don’t let me forget it. Have I told the “no more questions” thing?

Claire: I don’t think so. So that was the other part of this. Let’s also talk about some marriage hacks because pandemic marriage hacks are a whole different ballgame, and we haven’t talked about them recently.

Joy: Can I just make a point too about the wall? Because I want to also validate this. There was a Huff Post article, the title was “It’s Not Just You, A Lot of Us Are Hitting a Pandemic Wall Right Now.” And this was posted on February 4, 2021. It just kind of goes through what we were just talking about, but I want to point out something very important that it says. “The pandemic has over activated our stress system.” I know that’s kind of stating the obvious, but I just want everyone to physically think about that and about how, from my personal experience I was so stressed out from the fall of this year. I think it just accumulated throughout the year with work and whatever. Just the stress of the pandemic, and I really let – whether it’s right or wrong – I let the administration stress me out. The past administration, I like to say. Your body doesn’t recognize good stress or bad stress. Your body doesn’t recognize, oh I’m happy, I’m jogging, I’m doing something that’s really happy for me. Your body doesn’t recognize if it’s just, oh this is good stress, oh this is bad stress. If you’re relaxed, that’s fine. But if you’re stressed about something, your body is in that constant fight or flight mode. So if I think we think about that through the past year of how much we’ve been waking up to what’s next, especially with the most recent previous president. I woke up every day being like, “What now?” And then being really scared about the election, yada yada. I truly think stress played a huge part in my diagnosis. But I think overall hitting the wall, whether or not you just have a health issue or are just freaking over this, thinking about how that has overactivated your stress system. I took a training once with this guy. I’ll never forget this, and I’m very much simplifying it. But he presented about compassion fatigue. If you’re in any type of helping profession, you’re probably familiar with what that is. It’s very similar to a secondary type of trauma where if you’re in a field that causes you to be a helper all the time, that just can really burn you out. So they talk about how to help your body not absorb that stress by relaxing your body. And he went through this exercise that basically – I’m totally dumbing it down – but it’s basically doing a kegel and then releasing. Making sure your pelvic muscles aren’t tense and constantly making sure – because he’s like, that will put you into fight or flight. Making sure that when you’re breathing, you’re relaxing your pelvic floor. I thought that was such a good reminder. It’s a very tangible way to connect to your body. If you’re gritting your teeth, if you’re clenching your job, checking in with those physical symptoms to check that you’re not clenching your fist, you’re not tightening your – 

Claire: Right, your shoulders aren’t by your ears.

Joy: Yeah, Sometimes I’ll be sitting at work and I’ll just notice that I’m scrunching my shoulders or something is flexed. That kind of goes into what we were just talking about. Even those little things contribute to an already stressful year. Everything has been upended over the past 12 months. I encourage everyone – I’ll link the article in our show notes, but one of the quotes says, “We’re at more risk of burnout because of the circumstances and because of the fact that we’re continually retraumatized and reactivating that cortisol spike.” So it’s uncertainty, it’s stress, it’s “when’s this going to end,” it’s not knowing when it’s going to end. I think when we were six months into this, we were reading articles like this and we were like, “Yeah…” But now it’s go time. We really need to make sure that we’re at least checking in with those small things to take one less thing off your body.

Claire: Yeah, and I feel like there is so much to be said for, you know how when you go on vacation you get sick? Not you. But when you just run, run, run, run, run, and then the second you put your guard down you get a cold or whatever?

Joy: Totally.

Claire: I almost feel that way with the vaccine coming out where there was this light at the end of the tunnel. I kind of felt that way in December/January, and then coming into February it kind of hit. Even though I knew and had read and had been told that this isn’t going to change anything in the near term, I heard that and it went in one ear and out the other because I didn’t want that to be the case. I wanted so badly for this to be like, we’re there, we made it. And I felt that a lot when Brandon got vaccinated. We made it. And then to be six weeks out from Brandon being vaccinated and be like, our life hasn’t changed at all. That is the way it should be. That’s how we knew it was going to go, but just the reality of that I think I was in disbelief that we still have months and months and months to go. So it almost was like I let my guard down for a minute in January, and my body was like, “Psych.” The second you let your guard down, you lose that momentum. I just have felt the last week that everything just feels harder. And I also very much personally have a lot of comparative suffering as a mom because I see all these other women who are having to work from home with no childcare whatsoever. They’re juggling their kids’ online school and all that stuff. In reality, my work from home situation when it comes to parenting could not be more ideal. We have a live-in nanny. I’m not worried about where she’s going out after she leaves the house. I’m not worried about her exposing the kids. She lives at our house, she takes care of the kids. If I have a meeting that starts early, she gets up early. If Brandon’s call goes late, she’s able to stay on a little bit later if we ask her to. She’s so flexible. All of this is like, yeah, I’ve had it made in the shade when it comes to childcare. And I hate being home all the time.

Joy: Right.

Claire: My kids still come in. I’m still sort of half parenting a lot of the days, and they are as needy as ever because they don’t see other kids all that much. I’ve mentioned Miles has this very low-key preschool that he goes to sometimes.

Joy: But you’re their main social interaction, and you’re mom.

Claire: I don’t care how good you are a Legos. You can’t play with a kid the way other kids can play with them, and they don’t get the same out of it. So I’ve had to really just try to remind myself, yes, you could have had it worse. There are a lot of people out there who have had it way worse than you, but that doesn’t mean that it’s been easy, and that doesn’t mean that it’s been ideal, and that doesn’t mean that, you know. The thing that I hate about any of this is when anyone’s like, “Well, you signed up for this.” No one on this planet signed up for this. I don’t care what the job is.

Joy: Who’s saying you signed up for this?

Claire: A lot of people have said parents, especially moms, “Well, if you didn’t want to have to do this, then you shouldn’t have had kids.”

Joy: Who says that?

Claire: You know, people in comment sections. It’s the same thing with Brandon. When I was like, “Well, I’m worried that Brandon’s going to get COVID at work,” and they’re like, “Well, he’s a nurse. He should have known when he took this job.” Those types of comments where you’re like no one on this planet signed up to be a part of this pandemic. No one saw this coming. No one knew when they made any previous life decision that this was going to happen. I don’t even care if you’re an epidemiologist who specializes in respiratory pandemics. Even you did not sign up for this.

Joy: So here’s the other thing too is we are not set up for success for any of these professions.

Claire: No.

Joy: So nurses, doctors have quit. Unfortunately you hear horrible stories about people passing away by suicide because they’re so overwhelmed because the system doesn’t, isn’t, or maybe still isn’t supporting them. And by that I just mean supplies and staff, asking people to work two days in a row. I don’t think they have been supported in a way that makes this job sustainable. On top of a really already stressful situation being like, “Hey, we’re going to pay for your time off if you have to take time off” or whatever the case may be. “We’re going to pay for your kid’s childcare right now,” whatever it is. Same with mothers. The system is not set up to support mothers in a pandemic for crying out loud. Don’t even get me started. So for the assholes out there that are like, “Well you signed up for this,” it’s like, yeah no. The system is so unsupportive of all these professions that are in the eye of the storm. It’s like, ugh, go home trolls.

Claire: Go home trolls. And I think most people really acknowledge that and know that about everyone else around them that things have been uniquely hard for different people for different reasons. And I can honor that other moms are having to start their third-grade science project while they’re on a meeting with their boss, and I’m really lucky to be able to work from home, have flexible bosses who understand I need to go pick my kid up. They themselves have kids that they’re going to go pick up. You know, all of the above. While still acknowledging that I don’t want to be home. I’m glad that I can work from home, but I don’t want to be here. I want to be at work. I want to be in an office with other people. Yeah, my kids are young enough that I don’t have to worry about their school, but that also means I’ve got to find other stuff for them to do all day. The grass is always greener, but I think that comparative suffering thing really caught up with me this past week. Because I started to feel worse than I have recently, my brain immediately was like, “Yeah, but you know, it could be worse.” It’s like, f*** you, brain.

Joy: Why do you think we comparatively suffer?

Claire: Because I think we’re taught to do that. I think we’re taught to say, “Oh, well at least you’re still alive.” And it’s like, okay, true I guess.

Joy: But did you die?

Claire: But did you die? Exactly, right. That’s the joke, but it’s kind of not the joke. We talked about this last week about not being able to process difficult emotions or not knowing how to process cognitive dissonance or not knowing how to process being wrong. I think that also we as a society have not really ever been modeled very good processing skills or validating skills. I don’t think we’ve had validating skills modeled. Somebody comes to you and says, “Man, I’m having a crappy day,” and you say, “Wow, that sounds hard. I hate crappy days. Tell me about it.” Instead you say, “Oh, you’re having a crappy day? I got a flat tire and ran out of gas and a bird pooped on my head.” They’re like, “Okay, I guess that’s true. I guess a bird didn’t poop on my head, so.” And what’s the balance between having perspective to realize, yes, things could be worse. I’m grateful for what I have. While not also invalidating the feelings.

Joy: Yeah, exactly. The first thing we always go to is “at least you…” I shouldn’t say “we all,” but that’s a common response of trying to cheer people up instead of being like, “Dang, that just sucks. That just sucks.” I recently – who was I talking to? Oh. So after JT retired, I had a really hard couple of days. It was just really emotional for me. I was emotional at work because everyone shared such beautiful stories and I was crying all day. And then the next day I didn’t anticipate it being so hard. But when I got to work, him not being there, it hit me that he had retired. So I was just really teary that morning, and one of my coworkers was checking in on me. I’m like, “I just didn’t think it was going to hit me this hard.” I was just so dang teary. She was like, “Yeah, being a human is hard.”

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: That was the most perfect response. Michelle, that is the most simple and brief and accurate response I think I’ve ever heard.

Claire: Totally.

Joy: Also, I work with therapists. They always know what to say. “Yeah, being a human is really hard.”

Claire: As you know, we got some not so great health news about someone in my family earlier last week. That hit me a lot harder than I expected it to. And I was talking to my friend Heather, who we now talk about all the time because she is the only other friend that I see –

Joy: Hey, Heather. Let’s go on a hike.

Claire: I was like, “Yeah, I don’t know why this is hitting me so hard.” And she was like, “Don’t feel bad about it hitting you hard. I cried for an hour because a cat I didn’t even know died.” That to me was, we’re all in it right now. Things that are sad are feeling a lot sadder. Things that are harder are feeling a lot harder. And I need to just cope with that. So let’s talk about marriages during pandemic as well because I feel like that’s also something that for the past, you know, maybe the holidays felt at least a little bit of a break from your routine that you either got to fight a new fight for a month or were distracted to not be fighting or whatever. But I feel like it’s been such a hard year for so many reasons to be at home with somebody who, you know, not that you don’t love your spouse but you didn’t also sign up to be at home with them 24/7 365 either. So both of us listened recently to that Brené Brown episode where she had the Gottmans on. If you’re not familiar with the Gottmans, they are basically marriage researchers or relationship researchers.

Joy: Yeah, they’re very well known in the psychology world for couple’s therapy.

Claire: Right. If you’ve ever heard “The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” for bivorces, or the book Eight Dates, or they have all these different books.

Joy: They have tons of books. They’ve been around forever. When I was in grad school, we learned about the Gottmans. Anything that we talk about with couple’s therapy, the Gottmans are kind of at the heart of it. They have an amazing story about how they did some research with – this is so cool – but they had a research lab where they would have couples live in this apartment where people could observe them. Obviously this is a study that they’re agreeing to do, so it’s not like they are spying on them. But they are setting up this apartment where they would observe couples overnight and how they interacted and what they said to each other, and oftentimes they would get in fights. I’m sure they were coached to try to be as normal as possible. Don’t do anything, don’t try to look perfect. Don’t pretend like everything –

Claire: That would be so hard.

Joy: Oh, so hard. What they found was what they call the four horsemen of the apocalypse. With 99% accuracy, they can predict if they saw one of these four characteristics –

Claire: Behaviors.

Joy: Behaviors. They can predict with 99% – it’s 96% or 99%, some insane accuracy – whether or not that couple would stay together.

Claire: Within like three years too, right? Not like 30 years down the road. Whether or not in three years you would still be married.

Joy: Right. Without fail, if they saw this. 

Claire: Without intervention.

Joy: Right.

Claire: Anyway, Brené Brown has these two people on her podcast last week. It’s a great episode if you want to listen to it. A huge premise of the episode is it’s been a really hard year for couples and for marriages and for romantic relationships. What can we do? So that got me to thinking about a lot of, I mean people are always asking us for marriage hacks. So on the more lighthearted side, I don’t really have any new marriage hacks, but I will say one thing that felt very validating to me when I listened to that episode was them talking about them using “I” language and asking for positives instead of pointing the finger and speaking a negative. So saying like, “I’m upset.” The example she used in the podcast was, “I’m upset because you didn’t clean the kitchen.” Or, “I’m upset because the kitchen is dirty. Will you please clean it?” It’s like I’m upset. Here’s the tangible why. Here’s what I need from you so that you can be the star of the show and fix this problem for me. Not I’m upset because you didn’t clean the kitchen. I’m upset because the kitchen is dirty. Will you please clean it?

Joy: Giving the action. Like, what can we do? Instead of just being angry, what can we do to fix it? What do I need from you?

Claire: As opposed to, “You’re a slob. You never clean the kitchen. Don’t ever leave your dirty dishes on the table again.”

Joy: Right. It’s a personal attack.

Claire: Right, it’s a personal attack. Now you’ve made it about them. Now you’ve made it like, don’t ever do this again. Even though you may feel that way, I think that one thing I took away from that episode was, okay, we do that. We use “I” statements, I try to ask for things in the positive, we make it about the situation and not about the person. But I think a big thing in the past couple of weeks that has been helpful for us is really checking in and not making assumptions about really anything anyone’s going to do. I think that’s a reflection of everyone feeling so tapped out that it’s hard to have unspoken expectations about someone, and it’s hard to feel like there are unspoken expectations being made of you. So being awkwardly upfront. It drives Brandon crazy because at the end of the night, I’ll lay in bed and I’ll go through the next day in my head. To the point where it will be 10:30 and I’m like, “Hey Brandon, did you defrost the pork chops for tomorrow?” Every night, do we have everything we need for tomorrow?

Joy: You’re planning ahead for tomorrow.

Claire: He got used to it. But at first, he was like, “Why are you asking me this?” Because I need to know what we’re going to have for dinner tomorrow night before I fall asleep. But that is really helpful because then I feel like a lot of our fights are starting from me being like, “You didn’t do x, y, x,” and him being like, “Well you didn’t ask me to.” And me thinking, “I shouldn’t have to ask. You should do it.”

Joy: It’s a mind reader phenomenon. And that’s very common, females tend to think that males should read their mind or know what they’re thinking. It’s really interesting. We can’t read each other’s minds, and you have to use your words. There’s that fallacy that we see on social media and television over the years of the perfect couple and you just live in your house, and it’s like Lucy and –

Claire: Although even Lucy and Ricky had their tiffs. 

Joy: Lucy and Ricky did have their tiffs. But that is so not what we do, and I’ve just been thinking a lot about that lately because I saw on Instagram today I just passed through someone getting engaged. It was some movie star that got engaged. It’s like, “Oh it’s so cute,” and you immediately have that reaction of, “Oh my gosh, they must have the perfect relationship.” Kind of jump to that assumption that everything’s perfect. Oh my gosh, nothing is perfect. No one has that “perfect” relationship. But back to what you were saying about marriage hacks and how to work with your partner, especially during this time. Definitely go listen to that Brené Brown episode with the Gottmans. If you’re not familiar with the work, one of my favorite books is The Seven Principles to a Highly Effective Marriage. You can get it on Amazon. It’s just amazing because they have a lot of good questions in there that you can start thinking about. It’s doesn’t take a lot of brain space if you don’t want it to. But everything they have, they have a great website, they have an institute. The Gottman Institute. You can get trained to be a Gottman couple’s therapist. I personally love doing couple’s therapy. I think it’s one of the best things you can do for a couple, to figure out what makes them tick and how to get them on a better path. But on a funny note, five minutes ago you were talking about when someone will go, “You have it bad? What about this?” Scott does that sometimes, and it drives me up the wall. Like the other day, I’ll just give you a personal example. I don’t think he’d care that I share this. The other day, he was talking about he hit a wall, the pandemic wall. I think this was, Claire, before you mentioned that you were like, “Oh my God, I’m just really hitting a wall.” He came home. He was like, “I’m just really hitting a wall. Every day feels like Groundhog Day. I do the same thing. I go to work in my office at home. I walk the dog.” Just kind of complaining he doesn’t leave the house. And I think, too, Scott’s feeling not left out but just more scared because I have the vaccine, my parents are getting the vaccine, his parents are getting the vaccine. So he’s feeling like –

Claire: He and I can chat about everybody we know being vaccinated and that we aren’t going to get vaccinated until like August. 

Joy: Exactly. He’s like, [in whiney voice] “Guys, what about me?” So I feel like he’s just feeling it. So he’s like, “I’m just so frustrated.” I said, “Yeah, I totally get it.” And he goes, “I don’t think you do.” And I just blew up. I said, “Can’t I just try to empathize and try to be nice? Why do you always have to do that?” 

Claire: I know. I do that to Brandon thought, too, where I’m like, “You don’t get it.” So what he has started saying instead is, “I don’t understand what you’re going through, but I can tell that’s really hard.” Because he totally has said, “I get it, I get that this is hard.” I’m like, “You don’t get that this is hard. You still get to leave the house. You still get to see people.” 

Joy: And that’s what he says to me. “You’ve left the house.”

Claire: Exactly, I mean me and Scott are pals when it comes to this.

Joy: You totally are. You’re the same person. And the thing where I got mad is I’m like, you know what I mean. I’m not trying to say exactly, but yeah, it was just one of those moments where I got so pissed. “I’m just trying to be nice, stop.”

Claire: And I feel like it’s so hard, too, when you’re in that because if you weren’t his wife, he never would have turned that around on anyone else. It’s that, I’m comfortable enough with you that I’m going to throw this back in your face. If I was saying that even to my mom, and she I don’t think would say that, but any other person, even you, somebody if they were like, “I know how you feel,” I’d be like, “Yeah, it’s tough>” I wouldn’t be like, “No, you don’t know.” But I do say that to Brandon.

Joy: Yes, but you have to let that out somewhere because you’re just angry. 

Claire: It feels invalidating too to be like, no, I’m describing a unique set of problems. I uniquely am hurt by this. I am in a uniquely terrible situation. Please acknowledge that I’m the only one who feels pain and that it’s worse than everyone else’s pain. Sometimes you just want someone else to be like, “Yeah, I don’t know anyone else that has it as hard as you right now.” And you’re like, “Thank you. Yes, I suffer uniquely.” And even, I mean, that sounds silly, but guys, think to yourself right now –

Joy: It’s validation. It’s feelings validation too.

Claire: If someone came to you and you were having a bad day and you explained to them what was going on and they said, “Yeah, I don’t think I know anyone else who has it as hard as you today,” how good that would feel actually.

Joy: Oh, that feels so good. That feels so good.

Claire: I feel like shit and I am validated, I am justified.

Joy: I have a trophy waiting for you.

Claire: I have the worst day award waiting for me when I get back home in the shape of a giant cookie.

Joy: I was going to say, a big bowl of ice cream and a cookie, a cake. Yeah, you get the worst day award.

Claire: Even though you would know, yes of course other people in this planet are always having it worse than you. And we’ve even gone in the other direction and be like, okay, well does that mean you can’t be happy because other people have it better than you? No, nobody thinks that. But we do think I can’t be sad.

Joy: it’s fine to compare, but at the end of the day you’ve still got to have your feelings.

Claire: And it would feel so good for someone to be like, “Yeah, you’re having the hardest day of anyone I can think of right now.”

Joy: I’m sending you tacos right now.

Claire: Thank you. I am, dang it. I feel like that wasn’t so much a marriage hack section as it was a marriage complaining section.

Joy: Well I have a couple more funny things I need to tell you. I don’t know if you remember this from my birthday party forever ago when Michelle DeWitt bought me these little cards and then everyone pass them around the table. They’re just – 

Claire: Tarot cards.

Joy: I don’t know, tarot cards. And so every once in a while, I’ll put it out and pick one. And I picked one and the card was “nurture.” This is literally right before we were recording and the little caption with it is –

Claire: Today, just no you pulled it?

Joy: Yeah, before we recorded. “The nurture card reminds you to tend the garden. Relationships must be nourished in order to thrive.” I was like, “Oh my God, we’re talking about relationships.”

Claire: Go away, tarot card.

Joy: It says, “Count the abundant blessings of the relationships you have. Find ways to let other people know that you care for them and appreciate them.” I thought that was really funny. I was like, “Oh my God, my tarot card is totally predicting the topic.” The other funny thing that I do – well actually it’s not funny, but this is something that Scott and I have just determined, that when I say, “No more questions. Don’t ask me any more questions.” And when I’m at work all day, this is where it’s hard too because he wants to talk. I come home, he’s been home all day, and especially now with the pandemic. I think I’m trying to do a better job of talking – well, we have conversations, but it’s especially when he’s watching a basketball game and he wants to pause and show me the players’ outfits as they’re walking in every five minutes. And I’m like, “Okay, okay. You get two more rewinds, and then let’s call it a night.” But those are the moments where I’m full. I can’t handle any more interaction and I have to give him that sign. Otherwise he gets really upset. He’s like, “You don’t want to talk to me?” You know?

Claire: It’s like, it’s not that I don’t want to talk to you. I just don’t want to talk. 

Joy: Yeah, exactly.

Claire: I don’t [UNCLEAR 00:37:54.19] that. I’m the Scott in this situation. The next time that happens, just tell Scott to call me and we’ll just talk, and I’ll ask him if he took the pork chops out of the freezer yet. Scott, what are we having for dinner tomorrow night?

Joy: That’s so funny. I’m going to read a quick run through and I’ll link this too, “The Top 7 Ways to Improve Your Marriage.” This is from the Gottman Institute, is to seek help early, which is so hard. But it says the average couple waits six years before seeking help for relationship problems, so don’t let it fester. And I think the longer you wait, the harder it is to really work things out. So don’t feel like it’s a failure. I think it’s healthy to go to counseling as a couple before you get married, but don’t worry about judgement or that you’re failing. “Edit yourself. The most successful couples are kind to each other. They avoid saying every critical though then discussing touchy topics, and they will find ways to express their needs and concerns respectfully without criticizing or blaming their partner. Soften your start up. Arguments often start up because one partner escalates the conflict by making a critical or contemptuous remark.” This is like me when I blew up, when I was like, “Ugh, I’m just trying to be nice.” It just blew up out of nowhere.

Claire: Fair.

Joy: It blew up out of nowhere. “Accept influence from your partner. In studying heterosexual marriages, we found that a relationship succeeds to the extent that the husband can accept influence from his wife. For instance, a woman might say to her husband, ‘Do you have to work Thursday night? My mother’s coming that weekend, and I need your help getting ready.’ He replies, ‘My plans are set, and I’m not changing them.’ As you might guess, this guy is in a shaky marriage. A husband’s ability to be influenced by his wife rather than vice versa is crucial because research shows that women are already well-practiced at accepting influence from men. A true partnership only occurs when a husband can do the same thing.”

Claire: Does number four feel a little outdated to you?

Joy: Not really.

Claire: Really?

Joy: It doesn’t in this context. This is only a few years old. But I see what they’re saying at the end is women are already the type of personality that we can accept influence from others. 

Claire: See, I feel like the gender roles of that might not be accurate. I feel like those roles are reversed in my relationship.

Joy: In your relationship, yeah, that’s actually very true. But I think in general I could see how-

Claire: I could see in general how one person in the relationship may be more or less than the other person so it is just more of Person A versus Person B.

Joy: Totally.

Claire: Or as Sandy would say the Alpha and the Omega maybe.

Joy: Right.

Claire: But I definitely, I think that… yeah. Anyway, just wanted to call that out. 

Joy: Totally. Well I think from the study we can just generalize that to accepting your partner, accepting influence.

Claire: And a lot of this information, a lot of their research took place in the 80’s and 90’s too, didn’t it?

Joy: For sure. Yeah, yeah. And most of their research from what I can tell so far, I think they may have done more recent research with LGBTQ+, but some of the research that I’ve been reading is just from their earlier studies. “Have high standards. Happy couples have high standards for each other. Learn to repair and exit the argument. Happy couples have learned how to exit an argument or how to repair the situation before an argument gets completely out of control.” And seven, “Focus on positives. In a happy marriage while discussing problems, couples make at least five times as many positive statements to and about each other and their relationship as negative ones.” Do you have “The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” pulled up?

Claire: Yeah, so it’s criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. So, “Criticizing your partner is different than offering critique or voicing a complaint. The ladder two are about specific issues where the former is an ad hominem attack.” So the difference is, “Complaint: ‘I was scared when you were running late and didn’t call me. I thought we agreed we would do that for each other.’ Criticism: ‘You never think about how your behavior is affecting other people. I don’t believe you’re that forgetful. You’re just selfish. You never think of others.’”

Joy: So can you see the difference between criticism and complaint? It’s like, what your reaction was factually versus, “You’re an idiot” type of thing.

Claire: And kind of what we talked about a second ago in the kitchen situations of, “Hey, the kitchen’s dirty. You said you were going to clean it. Will you please clean it?” As opposed to –

Joy: “You’re so inconsiderate.”

Claire: Yeah, “You never clean anything. You’re just a slob.” “Contempt. When we communicate in this state we are truly mean. We treat others with disrespect, mock them with sarcasm, ridicule, call them names, and mimic or use body language such as eye rolling or scoffing. The target of contempt is made to feel despised and worthless. Contempt goes far beyond criticism. While criticism attacks your partner’s character, contempt assumes a position of moral superiority over them.” Here’s the example, “‘You’re tired. Cry me a river. I’ve been with the kids all day.’” A bird pooped on my head, what happened to you? [laughing] “‘I don’t have time to deal with you. Could you be any more pathetic?’”

Joy: Yeah. Again, these are the ones in their labs they have been able to predict –

Claire: Is the single greatest predictor of divorce.

Joy: Yeah, single greatest.

Claire: Again guys, this is all stuff you can hear and listen to and find in the Gottman stuff. We’re just kind of running through it quickly. The third one is defensiveness, which is pretty straightforward. And then the fourth one is stonewalling., which is –

Joy: Just not talking.

Claire: It says, “Usually a response to contempt. It occurs when the listener withdraws from the interaction, shuts down, simply stops responding to their partner.”

Joy: This is different from saying, “I need a break, can we reconvene in ten minutes?” This is just totally shutting down, not talking, blocking them. And the other thing that I want to call out. I’ll hopefully remember all these links is Brené put a really cool graphic on her Instagram that kind of talks about –

Claire: The antidotes.

Joy: The antidotes to these four horsemen.

Claire: And particularly in a pandemic world. 

Joy: Yes. And also really acknowledging how hard it is for people right now that, you’re either doing really well in quarantine, meaning you’re like “Wow, you’re actually not a bad quarantine partner” or you’re like –

Claire: Those are few and far between. Most people are at each other’s throats. To go back to feeling like you’ve hit a wall, the New York Times came out with something last week. It was called “Working Mothers Let Out a Primal Scream” or something like that. There was an accompanying piece to it where they interviewed some working-from-home moms with kids, and one of the quotes from it was, “None of the activities I use to ‘fill my cup’ are available to me anymore.” And I think that’s also a huge part of all of this, whether it’s your marriage or whatever, is we’re still on that train of there’s only so much baking I can do, there’s only so many times you can hide in the bathroom, there’s only so many baths or face masks or whatever. And I know the baths and the face mask thing is just self-care, whatever. But when you’re home, that’s kind of what you’ve got. For me, I would always say, “Yeah, I love baking” or whatever. There’s only so much damn baking that I can do, and then I still have to clean the kitchen. That’s not fun. So. Yeah. You can’t go out with your friends. I feel like in the summer too was easier when you could do more stuff.

Joy: Right, feel like you’re still being safe but you’re outside. Like window shopping or something.

Claire: Yeah. You could go on a hike, or you could at least see your friends on the other side of a trail.

Joy: Right. Can we end on a positive note?

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: We were talking about one of my new favorite podcasts last week, Gloss Angeles, and one of the listeners let them know that we talked about them and was like, “Hey Gloss Angeles girls, Joy and Claire were talking about you on their podcast.” Kirby from that show emailed us.

Claire: So cute.

Joy: And was like, “Oh my gosh, you guys mentioned us. We’re a newish podcast. We’d love to collaborate.” And I was like, this is amazing. I love how podcasts really bring people together. So I just have to give that great update. I was like, “I love your show. I love products. I love California. Can I come live with you?” So that’s really exciting. TBD on how we will collab, but I am very excited about that. And here’s one of the sins I have to confess because I got into this podcast, and I know it’s a show on MTV. I probably wouldn’t be watching this, but I’m listening to the audio version of Catfish. It is unbelievable the amount of people that are pretending to be other people on the internet and develop relationships for like five years.

Claire: What?

Joy: I’m not kidding. And these people will be like, “Yeah, he just never wanted to talk on the phone.”

Claire: For five years?

Joy: Yes, I’m not kidding.

Claire: And they’re like, “Yeah, you know, whatever happens…”

Joy: I mean, there’s a part of me in my heart where I’m like, these people are just so vulnerable or maybe they have low self-esteem. So my heart goes out to them. I’m not making fun of them. But there’s a point where I’m like, some of these stories are just unbelievable. So if you want to just zone out to some crazy –

Claire: I blame the other people in their lives. I’m not blaming them. I’m blaming their best friend who’s not like, “Girl, you haven’t even spoken to him in real life in four years. What are you still doing talking to him?”

Joy: For sure.

Claire: Get her best friend on the phone.

Joy: Where is that best friend who’s like, “Dump him ASAP. You never met the guy.”

Claire: Where is the best friend who’s like, “Don’t you just think you should FaceTime him one time? Don’t you feel… this isn’t a red flag?” 

Joy: I mean, one of the ways –

Claire: You can talk to prisoners on the phone.

Joy: Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, I know. One of the ways they find out someone is being catfished is that they’ll take the profile picture that the person used as their profile picture and they’ll search to see if it’s just a stock photo or a first image. So one catfish was about this teenage couple or whatever. He was like, “I’m going to search ‘hot teenage boy abs.’” He’s like, “I’m really embarrassed I just said that.” He’s like, “That’s never something I’m going to Google.” He’s like, the first photo that came up was the photo of the catfish dude. It’s just a world that I’m amazed.

Claire: Sounds very you.

Joy: But here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I dodged a bullet because I – I don’t think I ever told you this – but when I was in high school was when email, the internet was starting to come out. So right at 1996 is when I started college, and I think the internet was the end of that year when it was really booming or at least starting. And AOL Instant Message was the thing.

Claire: Oh yeah.

Joy: So I was talking to people on the internet. This was kind of before – at least for my situation, thank God, that people really didn’t know or weren’t savvy enough to figure out how to dupe people online. So I met some people – it’s such a weird story. But I met this guy in a chatroom. We became really good friends. We would spend hours on the phone. I went to visit him. I flew out to see him, stayed with him at a house on the campus. And my parents just let me do it. There’s part of me that’s like, how on earth – but back in the day, there wasn’t enough information to be like, this is a bad choice.

Claire: Right. It wasn’t like you’re going to end up in a ditch.

Joy: But there’s a part of me that’s like I could have.

Claire: Yeah, you totally could have.

Joy: I mean, we spent hours and hours and hours on the phone. Here’s the other thing I guess that makes it kind of legit is because that’s how I met my best friend in college is because he was like, “Oh, my best friends go to ASU. You should hang out with them.” So I ended up hanging out with them. We became best friends.

Claire: So you knew he was a real person?

Joy: Yes, yes, yes.

Claire: That’s legit.

Joy: He’s awesome, and I became best friends with these guys, ended up being my roommates senior year and was the boyfriend that got away.

Claire: Woah.

Joy: Isn’t that crazy?

Claire: Okay, okay, the one that you were dating while you were living with him already because you kind of quasi-hid it from your other roommates.

Joy: Totally, totally.

Claire: Oh my goodness.

Joy: I miss being young.

Claire: I know, right.

Joy: So funny. It’s so funny. I could have been catfishes, but that was way before that was a thing. Alright, what else do we have? Are we done? Is this it? Did we give you enough coping skills?

Claire: Validations. And if you need to hear it, man, I don’t know anyone else who is having as hard of a day as you. It’s okay to be just miserable today.

Joy: Yeah, the worst day. You’re having the worst day, and you win. That’s the worst.

Claire: You win. Or if you need to hear this, you’re doing awesome. No one is as good as you at all the things you’ve done today.

Joy: All the things you’ve done. Your hair looks amazing.

Claire: Amazing.

Joy: Your teeth are so white.

Claire: You smell like Oprah. And I’m just amazed by how amazing you are.

Joy: You’re glowing.

Claire: Despite all the other stuff you have going on.

Joy: Yeah, you’re just glowing. You’re really glowing.

Claire: Glowing and smelling like Oprah.

Joy: Guys, I have a small request. If you have any questions or want some tips or where to go for help with couples, please let me know because I’m really happy to point you in the direction to, not just for individual counseling but if you need some resources for couples.

Claire: Joy Parrish, real life therapist.

Joy: I love couple’s counseling. It’s so fun – I shouldn’t say fun because that’s not what I mean. But it is, I love doing it.

Claire: You know what, the fact that you just talked about how much you love catfish and now how fun couple’s counseling is, red flag to me.

Joy: Don’t trust this counselor.

Claire: Don’t trust her. She wants to watch you flail.

Joy: Yeah. Not credible, not credible. Alright guys.

Claire: Alright.

Joy: Have a great week. Talk to you next time.

Claire: Bye.

Joy: Bye.

Claire’s recent migraine scare, dreaming of Camp Timeout, Joy’s current favorite podcasts, the Paris Hilton documentary, Adam Grant’s new book Think Again, and how to make friends as an adult.

Adam Grant article


instagram: joyandclaire_

This is Joy & Claire Episode 60: Open to Rethinking

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

Audio Length: 50:51 minutes 

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: This is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. Thank you for tuning in to yet another episode of us talking to you.

Claire: [laughing] Aren’t you so glad we’re here again?

Joy: Really? I think you are. How’s it going? How’s your week been so far, Claire? This is Tuesday. What happened yesterday? Do you want to talk about what happened to your eyeballs/

Claire: Sure, I can talk about what happened with my eyeballs. So I think it was a migraine. I was driving in the middle of the day, and I started getting blurry kind of weird floaters. And then it kind of just turned into this super weird peripheral vision bottom of the pool type of waviness. And my mom had her retina detach sporadically – spontaneously, I should say, not sporadically. I hope not 

Joy and Claire: Sporadically.

Claire: Spontaneously. Probably like about maybe eight or nine or more years ago at this point. So she’s completely blind in one eye. And so I’m obviously heightened sensitivity about that. I kind of freaked out. It didn’t go away right away. It just felt kind of similar to if I had maybe just looked right into a bright light and had to try and blink it away, but I couldn’t blink it away. And it came on really suddenly. It really freaked me out. So I called my eye doctor and got in for a same-day eye doctor appointment, which I was really impressed that I could even do that, just to make sure my retina wasn’t detaching. And my retina was fine. So we think that it was a migraine or a migraine aura. I do get migraines. I have gotten migraines since Miles was born. I had never had a migraine in my life, and then I had my first one when he was maybe three or four months old, and ever since then I’ve had them fairly regularly, maybe once a month or so. But I’ve never had an aura before. Normally when I have a migraine, I start to feel it coming on. If I don’t some Excedrin within twenty minutes, it’s going to hit and I’m going to be down for the count for the rest of the day.

Joy:  Yeah, it’s not like a headache. It’s a migraine.

Claire: No, it’s super intense. I’ve gone to the emergency room for migraines before. They’re very intense. But I can manage them with Excedrin and whatever.

Joy: The headache medicine.

Claire: The headache medicine. The Excedrin migraine or whatever, which apparently – anyway. 

Joy: You wanted to go down that rabbit hole, did you?

Claire: Well, the reason I take it instead of migraine med is because one of my friends who’s a nurse told me that it did just as well as prescription migraine medication in double blind studies. So I’ve never even been to a neurologist about my migraines. I just manage it with over-the-counter stuff. So point of the story is I’ve never had an ocular migraine, nor have I had a migraine aura before. So I called Brandon. He was at work. He works with a bunch of doctors. He was sort of like, hey, is Claire having a stroke, does she need to come in?

Joy: Right, right, right.

Claire: And that’s where your brain goes, right?

Joy: Totally, of course.

Claire: It’s like, oh my God, am I having a stroke, is my brain tumor taking over, what’s going on.

Joy: We’ve done too many Google searches about our health to know anything about what’s really going on.

Claire: Yeah. And this is something where – when I was a backpacking instructor, I had to take Wilderness First Responder, and pretty much –

Joy: “Woofa?”

Claire: “Woofer.”

Joy: I just remember some friends, I had some friends at the other job that would call it a “woofer.”

Claire: Yeah, my WFR. So Wilderness First Responder. And basically what they teach you, it’s a week-long course and what they teach you is more or less the skills you need to decide whether or not something is an emergency that requires evacuation. You aren’t taught how to treat anything, but they really drill in here’s what you’re looking for when you need to call a helicopter. And one of the things that they tell you with neurologic symptoms is the big red flag for neurologic symptoms is super sudden onset. You know, if you’re getting a headache over the course of the day, it’s building up, there’s some things going on. But if you’re totally fine and then crack of thunder massive headache, that’s a huge red flag. So that’s why I was so freaked out because I was driving, I was fine. Split second, now my vision has changed. So that freaked me out. Anyway, so after Brandon having gotten some unofficial medical advice, me having talked to a few other people, I am fairly sure it was related to a migraine. Though I never developed a headache.

Joy: Oh interesting.

Claire: So that was the other weird thing. Had I had this and then gotten a migraine, it would have been like, oh this is a new weird migraine symptom. But it didn’t’ follow any of the patterns of a normal migraine. So I’ve decided what I’m going to do is see if it happens again. Then I will make an appointment specifically for this problem. If it doesn’t happen again, then the next time I’m in for a physical I’ll bring it up. Because even though I started having migraines five years ago, I’ve never been to a neurologist. I did go to a neurologist once because I have a tremor.

Joy: Hand, right? Yeah.

Claire: But he basically was like, “Yeah, this happens sometimes, goodbye.” And so I don’t like have a neurologist.

Joy: Yep. You’re normal.

Claire: He was like, “Yeah, sometimes healthy people just randomly start tremoring for the rest of their life. Enjoy life.” And I was like, okay, guess I’ll just revisit this every few years.

Joy: I’m laughing, but it’s not funny. I’ve had doctors tell me that too where they’re like, “Yeah, that just happens.”

Claire: This just happens now. It’s like that Jim Gaffigan bit where he’s like, “Okay, so you got to do these exercises on your ankle.” “Oh, how long do I have to do those for?” “No, you just do that now.” Was it Jim Gaffigan? It might have been Louis C.K. Anyway. So if you have had ocular migraines and this sound like an ocular migraine, I’d be curious just to have that validation.

Joy: Please chime in. Yeah, let’s validate symptoms.

Claire: If you have had a brain tumor and this sounds like a brain tumor, I don’t think I want to hear about it.

Joy: Yeah, this is similar to people… what are the things people tell you about? Oh yeah. 

Claire: Moths in your ears. When my biggest fear is, I have this irrational fear of moths in my ears, and everyone’s like, “No, that’s not irrational. My brother’s sister’s friend -“ and I’m like, why would you tell me that?

Joy: Yeah, people will DM us actual stories and I delete them because I’m like, Claire does not need to see this.

Claire: Why? Why would you be like, “Hey Claire, you know that super random fear you’ve convinced yourself is irrational so that you can get through the day? It’s not irrational.” 

Joy: I will never forget though. I’ve been reminiscing so much about Camp Timeout lately, just because I really want to travel. I’ve been reminiscing about every trip I’ve ever been on in my entire life, and recently Camp Timeout is on the forefront of my mind. And I just will never forget, A, how amazing that amphitheater was where we did an episode. But, B, how a moth almost flew in your ear.

Claire: A moth almost flew into my ear in real time.

Joy: [laughing]

Claire: Guys, so intense.

Joy: Okay, let’s move on. Can we talk about your nail polish? 

Claire: Oh okay.

Joy: It looks great. Let’s talk about your nail polish.

Claire: Yeah, right. This is like day… I think –

Joy: I think it was this weekend.

Claire: It was on Thursday maybe, even.

Joy: Oh wow.

Claire: So I’m going on day five, and this is me living my life. I don’t do a base coat or a top coat because I’m not a fancy human who has time for three separate coats of things to dry.

Joy: No, nobody does. I never do that. 

Claire: No, 0% of the time.

Joy: I do those drops that – Seche Vite. But I’ve been hearing that the Olive & June drier drops are fantastic, and I’ll get to where I heard that from in just a moment, but yet.

Claire: Well I just do my nails while the kids are in the bath and hope to God that they dry before I have to get them out of the bath.

Joy: Yeah, it’s just a gamble.

Claire: So that’s why I literally have my nails painted. So the brand is called Suite Eleven. Suite like a bougie apartment. It’s vegan. The top ten allergen free. I believe it’s a black-owned business as well. And I really love the colors. One of them is called Saturn and Jupiter or Jupiter and –

Joy: It’s very pretty. Its’ very you. It’s kind of this cool, purple color.

Claire: Yeah, it’s kind of this dark, dusty purple.

Joy: Plum, yeah.

Claire: And the other one is called Tea Time, which is sort of this –

Joy: Mint green, which is so on brand for you.

Claire: Yeah, it’s like almost a very, very, very, very pale green tea sort of color.

Joy: Yes, perfectly described. 

Claire: I was really impressed. They dried really quickly. They were affordable. I want to say they were right around $10 or $12 a piece, which feels pretty good for a boutique nail polish. Definitely would recommend. And their colors are all very not rend right now.

Joy: I love that. You know what, there’s only so many pinks and reds that you can buy. Any time I look at a nail polish display, I’m just kind of like, I’m not inspired. I need something. But really, how many colors of the rainbow can we do.

Claire: I mean, I usually like Essie. I like their colors.

Joy: Yeah, Essie’s good too.

Claire: I also don’t browse like I used to. I used to just go to Target and stand there for five minutes and pick out a slightly different shade of dusty purple. And now I can just do that on the internet.

Joy: Right, yeah, exactly.

Claire: Yeah. So I’m really excited to have a beauty product.

Joy: I can’t believe you don’t use drying drops.

Claire: I have never –

Joy: I need to send some to you. So I am, no surprise, obsessed with this new-to-me – thank you, listener, for introducing me to my new favorite podcast called Gloss Angeles. Gloss Angeles is my favorite podcast. It’s by these two amazing women. They’re both beauty editors. They know what they’re talking about. They’re super relatable. They give great advice about products. You have to listen to it. Please support them. They’re awesome. So I heard about the Olive & June dry drops for your nails, and one of the hosts just had a baby, so she was like, “I need my nails do dry in like a second. I can’t waste time.” So I’m going to try the Olive & June drier drops. Because they were both like, “I like the Seche Vite” – and I’m probably saying it wrong, but whatever, you guys know what I’m talking about. It’s that clear gel that literally dries your nails in like a minute. And they said it was better than that, so I’m like, do tell. But the thing with the Seche Vite is it does get a little goopy if you don’t use it pretty quickly. It’s not a product that you can use over the year, so I found it gets kind of solid and then your nails get really clumpy. But anyway, Gloss Angeles. Hopefully we can go met them in Los Angeles.

Claire: I know, for real. You got to start doing an Instagram stalking, and we can have them on our podcast.

Joy: I already stalk them and tag them, and they reposted our sosh.

Claire: Great, come on our podcast.

Joy: Yes, I’m like, please.

Claire: Please.

Joy: And they’re just really relatable. I like hosts that you obviously can feel like, I want to sit down and talk with these girls.

Claire: Yeah, like this podcast for example.

Joy: [laughing] Yeah, okay. Thank you, Gloss Angeles ladies. Do we want to talk about our new social media platform that we really don’t –

Claire: Oh my gosh, that we have no idea what it is.

Joy: Well we do, but we don’t. And we also are like [sigh] this is just like the gold rush where everybody tries to get on this social platform and then it kind of goes away.

Claire: Do you remember that other one that was kind of like this a couple of years ago? What was it even called? I can’t even remember.

Joy: It starts with a “P.” What was the one that you can livestream? Everyone’s yelling it, everyone’s yelling it. It starts with a “P.” Blah blah blah… Platypus.

Claire: Just start saying “P” words, and eventually it will come up.

Joy: Pumaria. 

Claire: Pumaria. [laughing] Uh, social platforms.

Joy: Pinwheels.

Claire: Pinwheels. I feel like there was one a couple years ago. I’m thinking of a different one than you.

Joy: Oh, okay.

Claire: And it started with an E I think actually. 

Joy: Okay.

Claire: I don’t know. Anyway. And it was a similar type of thing where it was like, there’s no advertising, you have to get an invite or we’re going to crash the servers.

Joy: Oh, yes, yes, yes. There was an email for that too. There was this cool email thing that nothing ever happened with it.

Claire: Nothing ever happened with it. So we’re on Clubhouse. That’s what we’re talking about. It’s called Clubhouse. It’s only so far for iPhone people, so we know that’s a problem. And you have to have an invite, so whatever that means. We’re on it. We haven’t figured out how to use it. We’re not doing anything on there that’s groundbreaking. So if you’re not on it, don’t have FOMO.

Joy: Don’t have FOMO.

Claire: But if you are on it, you can follow us if you want and eventually we might have a group for Joy and Claire.

Joy: So I think the thing I’ve noticed people using it the most for is connection, networking, if you want to just kind of chime into someone that is a piece of content that you’re interested in or a topic that you’re interested in, then you can chime – or listen. You could chime in if you wanted to, but you can listen to someone having a talk about running, having a talk about how to create a blog, how to create a podcast. But it’s not a live video. You can listen to it while you’re walking if you want. But it’s not recorded. So it’s this unique, exclusive, you have to catch it or it goes away. A little bit of a Snap Chat for audio in a way.

Claire: Yeah, right. It’s basically like a public Marco Polo.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: So we’re trying to figure that out, but don’t feel left out if you’re not on Clubhouse because I also can’t even, I don’t know…

Joy: Periscope! Periscope.

Claire: Oh, Periscope. And the one I was thinking of was Ello.

Joy: Ello. 

Claire: [British accent] Ello.

Joy: [British accent] Ello. Totally remember that. What apps do you think, -let’s listen to this in a year from now – what apps do you think are going to stay forever?

Claire: Okay, so here’s what I always think. Remember when we were friends with Lisa Bilyeu?

Joy: Yes.

Claire: Yeah, okay. So as you guys know, Lisa and Tom Bilyeu, who now have this booming YouTube channel, Joy and I were friends with Lisa for a little while and we went to her house, her beautiful house.

Joy: Which we could still call her up and go see her.

Claire: I mean, I’m being sort of sarcastic. I’m sure she would still love to see us, and we would still love to see her.

Joy: She is so kind, she’s so kind.

Claire: She’s so kind. And her house is just full of Quest bars.

Joy: Full of Quest bars. It’s for real. And cute dogs, yeah.

Claire: But the point of the story is I remember her telling us that you never know when something is going to pick up and so you might as well dip your toe in and be ready in case it does pick up, and that’s how you become an early adopter and stay ahead of the trends. She was like, you know, right now we’re experimenting with this thing where Alexa gives you your daily news every morning and it’s native to Alexa, but if you are an early adopter you can be a content creator for Alexa and get in on that. I don’t have an Alexa, but I don’t feel like that ever took off, this native to Alexa news debrief.

Joy: No, I don’t either.

Claire: But I just remember her using that as an example of, we are working on that now because if it does take off we want to be ready. And I feel like Clubhouse has been around for several months now but I feel like it’s just in the last month started to get –

Joy: Somehow the momentum picked up, and I don’t know who –

Claire: Yeah, and kind of reached critical mass and now –

Joy: It was probably some celebrity that got on and told all their celebrity friends, and then everyone wants to be where celebrities are. You know, like us.

Claire: Yeah, and then Elon Musk did a live on it last night or whatever. And so whatever, maybe it will turn into something, maybe it won’t. I don’t know. I also didn’t think TikTok was going to turn into anything, and here we are.

Joy: That’s so true.

Claire: I also at one point in my life, I didn’t think that iPods were going to make it. So. I am not the one to ask.

Joy: I will never forget the first time Scott got the first iPhone. Was in 2008. I think that was the year it came out, obviously, because Scott will get things the second they are released. And I will never forget being like, “What is that?” and being so jealous of how much time he was on it. I was like, “Why are you always on your phone?” This is the first iPhone. I was very jealous of a phone.

Claire: For iPods, I was like you can’t replace the battery, this isn’t sustainable. What happens when the battery dies? These are the things that we worry about guys back in the late 90’s. It was like, you know, what’s that famous quote, I think it’s Gerald Ford or someone, I don’t know. “If I asked my clients what they wanted, they would have said a bigger horse.” Or a faster horse. Or then there’s this other famous climate change anecdote where it’s like, we might be creating solutions to yesterdays’ problems that at the turn of the century everyone was freaked out because if the population keeps growing at this rate there’s no way we’ll be able to keep up with all the horse poop for everybody’s horses. That was the concern. You always have to have this perspective that we might be stressing over a problem that the problem will sort of solve itself.

Joy: Speaking of problems, I was just thinking about people who have created a thing. So I watched the Paris Hilton documentary, which is so good by the way, you guys. I know you could feel like why is the Paris Hilton documentary good. It’s so good, and I finished one of my Lego sets watching this documentary. I was like, I can’t just sit on the couch and watch the Paris Hilton documentary.  I will feel really, I don’t know –

Claire: You got to have for of a little stimulation.

Joy: I had to have something, also doing something productive. But actually it was really, really good. She is interviewed about how, I didn’t know she had so much trauma as a kid. I won’t do spoilers, but man, she had a rough childhood. So you learn about that and how she came to be who she is, which I really admire her for her drive. She kind of had this, instead of people who get knocked down being like, “I’m going to turn to drugs and alcohol,” she was like, “I’m going to prove y’all wrong, and I’m going to make so much money,” Look what she’s doing. So she kind of turned her really bad situations into a big f*** you to her haters. But she talks a little bit about how she created the selfie, which is really true. She has so much to do with how social media is today. She kind of birthed that. They ask her, do you have any regret of how people use that now and how they kind of judge themselves on social media and doing filters and having to look beautiful or whatever it is. And she was like, “Yeah, I feel guilty for that and I feel a lot of responsibility for that.” So it’s kind of like that thing of the monster that you created but you had no idea that that would become a thing. Anyway, if anyone wants a good, it’s just good eye candy to watch a good mindless documentary. And it’s really well done, and just how they interview her family and her sister. Her sister’s so smart. These are smart people, but just the lives that they lived, it’s pretty fascinating.

Claire: I mean, yeah, Paris Hilton is not somebody that I look at and thing, you must live an interesting life.

Joy: Yeah. I mean, it’s really, really fascinating. 

Claire: I think of her as like Alexis.

Joy: Yes, totally. And it’s on YouTube only. It’s on her YouTube channel is the place that she released it. She made Kim Kardashian. Without Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian would not have been doing what she’s doing.

Claire: I, like, invented her.

Joy: She 100% invented Kim Kardashian. It’s just crazy.

Claire: I wonder if she gets royalties on that.

Joy: Seriously. I just really, really enjoyed it. And I think it took me back to the days when I was really – I think I was in grad school or right out of grad school and Simple Life came out, so I wasn’t super like – I was out having fun. I wasn’t sitting at home watching television, but I don’t remember watching the Simple Life. I just remember she full-on created a character that’s not who she is, just to kind of sell. I love stories like that. And here’s another podcast recommendation. Even the Rich is one of my favorite podcasts as well. Two fabulous hosts. They’re so funny, so put together, and they recently did a 6-7-episode series on Paris Hilton. They’ve done Britney Spears. They talked about the royals. They just kind of go through a 7-episode series on a rich person and tell their story. It’s really cute.

Claire: I’m surprised we haven’t had a segment – the problem is that I wouldn’t know, you would be like you with a master’s degree in celebrity culture explaining it to me, like a preschooler. What is going on. 

Joy: There’s this girl names Paris, and her parents really loved Paris. That’s why they named her Paris. Yeah, anyway. Listen to Even the Rich. Really great female hosts. 

Claire: Okay. So we, again as you can tell are just going for it in this episode. We are going to cover a few more of your questions and topics that you requested a couple weeks ago. So let’s start with talking about this Adam Grant article that you recently read. It sort of pertains to talking about politics and talking about difficult topics. Go for it.

Joy: Yes. So Adam Grant is obviously one of my favorite researchers, authors. He is an organizational psychologist. He’s had his own podcast, Work Life. He is pretty much everywhere, so anywhere you see the amazing Brené Brown or big researchers, Malcom Gladwell, you’re going to see Adam Grant. So he wrote a book recently, another book called Think Again.

Claire: Can I just make a comment about his book?

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: I haven’t read it, but I saw the picture of him holding it up, and my first thought was, if I have to buy another damn book with a match being blown out on the cover for leadership, I’m sick of it. He needs a new branding specialist. That’s all I have to say.

Joy: Yeah, he does.

Claire: I was mad about it.

Joy: And Claire, that’s okay. I think you’re right to be mad, and he should hire you.

Claire: Thank you for validating my anger over another match being blown out on the front of a leadership book.

Joy: Yeah, or some kind of handshake. There’s a handshake happening, making the deal.

Claire: Guys, we got to move on from the matchstick thing. We get it.

Joy: There’s a lot of schtick.

Claire: There’s a lot of metaphors to be had here, and it’s time to move on.

Joy: It’s time to move on.

Claire: We’ve had them all. Okay, go on.

Joy: Okay, so he wrote an article in the New York Times Opinion. It’s called “The Science of Reasoning with Reasonable People.” So I know he has a lot to talk about this topic with his new book, but this article really kind of encapsulates a lot of what he was writing about in Think Again. I’m not going to go through the whole article obviously, but I just want you guys to – we’ll link it in the show notes – but I want you to read it. I got so much out of it, just really thinking of how we’re talking to people. And I think we know this innately, but when we’re having conversations with “difficult people” or unreasonable people, it got me really thinking of all the conversations I’ve had, especially over the last year. And quite frankly, some in person, some in social media that have really just gotten me fired up and I react, I get angry, I kind of lead from emotions instead of leading from rational brain. So I think the thing that was probably stuck with me the most was, okay, I’m no longer going to, it’s not our place to change anyone’s mind. And I think we innately know that, but all we can do is try to understand their thinking and ask if they’re open to rethinking. So we can’t go back and forth, you’re right, you’re wrong, here’s another article to read. It’s really about, are you just open to having a discussion. He goes on for paragraphs and paragraphs. I’m not going to read the whole thing so you guys can go on and read it about how you talk to or at least understand where other people are coming from. But I think what got me a little bit stuck was someone who I may see as unreasonable may see me as unreasonable. So I guess the only way to get through that is to both be curious about where we’re coming from. The goal should never be that we are going to agree at the end. The goal should be, I just really want to find out where you’re coming from. And if I can feel that I understand where someone is coming from, I think that’s where we’ll feel a little more satisfied with the outcome. I have another example from the same friend that I mentioned a couple episodes ago where I had snoozed her for 30 days because she was posting conspiracy theories. I texted you about, yeah.

Claire: Oh yes. You said this to me.

Joy: I had snoozed her for 30 days. And this is a good friend that I have from growing up, like best friends in high school and junior high and we go on trips every year.

Claire: She’s not like this random poster person, like that other random guy where you’re like why are you even following me.

Joy: It’s not the random guy who said he was at the Capitol. 

Claire: You’re like, “Wait, I’m sorry, you were where now?”

Joy: Where, and I feel really ashamed that you are on my page. What the heck are you doing? I’m sure all my really good friends saw that in the comments and was like, “Who are you friends with, Joy? What is this guy doing?” Okay, so anyway. I had snoozed her for 30 days. This is the gal who wrote me about Trump’s conspiracy theories and how Trump’s a really good guy and this is why. I had tried to understand by asking where she got her sources from, and the conversation kind of ended. So because I had snoozed her, I wasn’t seeing any of her posts. Well recently she posted this picture of, I’m not even going to go, it was some conspiracy theory about this guy –

Claire: Someone dying from the vaccine.

Joy: Someone dying from the vaccine and how this is what Twitter is hiding from us.

Claire: Right, this is what the media doesn’t want you to know.

Joy: So I think Claire and I have both said this before. If you have someone who’s sending you things that says, “This is what the media doesn’t want you to know,” I need you to really question why are they thinking that way.

Claire: Yeah, that’s my favorite – you’re not hearing about this because the media doesn’t want you to know about it. That’s, to me, red flag.

Joy: Red flag, red flag. And it’s just not based in reality. Okay, so she posted that picture, and I’m like, “Noooo.” She’s back on my feed. And I should have ignored it, but I posted three different articles from three different news sources all across the media bias chart that were points against what she posted. And let me tell you this, too. She didn’t just post a link. She didn’t post the source. It was a screenshot.

Claire: Yeah, it was an image.

Joy: It was an image.

Claire: You couldn’t link it to anything.

Joy: Not only that, it’s like who posted this, you know. If you’re going to post shit like that, post a source. And so, [exasperated sigh] I posted three articles from three different sources. I think it’s important to review different sources. I didn’t say anything about the post. I think it might be helpful to review a number of sources when you post things like that. And she responds, “Unfortunately I don’t agree with your fact check.” Unfortunately I don’t agree with your fact check.

Claire: Unfortunately I don’t agree with the facts that you’re showing me. You don’t get to not agree with facts.

Joy: You don’t.

Claire: That’s the crazy thing about facts. It doesn’t matter if you agree with them or not. It’s like [exasperated sigh]. This is the thing.

Joy: It’s like, I just have to exercise my demons. 

Claire: I mean, you do, but at the same time this is the problem that people don’t believe facts.

Joy: I know, I know, so here’s the next. Two more things and we can move on. Someone else chimed in from my high school that probably saw me and was like, “We’re going to get Joy.” Which had me a little bit of back in high school trauma where I was kind of the outcast because I was Mormon and I was like, “Ah, they’re coming after me.” He was like, “Funny how all these articles say he died of natural causes, but they don’t list what the natural cause was.”

Claire: Natural causes. That’s the cause.

Joy: That’s what I said. So I posted the definition of natural causes. I was like, “That’s what natural causes is. It’s dadadada,” and then I post the definition. Come on, you guys.

Claire: It’s because this person was elderly and yeah.

Joy: Come on, come on.

Claire: Here’s the other thing that makes me laugh so much. This is not a thing that makes me laugh, it makes me cry on my pillow because I’m scared. Is that a lot of these are the same people who are saying, “The cause of death only says COVID, but it was really something else.” They’re just listing it as COVID because  – like somebody was saying like –

Joy: They’re excluding information.

Claire: – If they list it as COVID, they get more funding. I was like, that’s not real. That’s not real.

Joy: So not real.

Claire: It’s not listed as COVID when they’re trying to cover something up, and it is listed as COVID when they’re trying to cover something up. So nothing is real. You remember that game Whose Line is it Anyway? where the rules don’t matter and everything’s made up.

Joy: Yes, I love that show.

Claire: I love that show, but that’s what it feels like sometimes.

Joy: But that’s what we’re living.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: That’s what we’re living sometimes. So anyway, I posted the natural causes definition, and I said – I had to jab, I’m so sorry. But I was like, “I understand that you’re not interested in hearing facts, but I would just encourage you to critically think about this.” And then someone else chimed in and was like, “Yeah, this is like 1% death rate” or some shit like that, they don’t even know what they’re talking about. So I posted another couple articles. And then my friend was like, “Yeah, this vaccine, they don’t even know what’s in it. They just take it and don’t even ask questions.” And I said, “Um, so-and-so, if by ‘they’ you mean me, I have done my research” – my article reading, Claire – “I have done my due diligence of finding out about the vaccine, I work in healthcare, I got the first vaccine.” So I kind of explained this thing of – 

Claire: Right, you’re like I haven’t turned into an Antifa zombie yet.

Joy: They just do the vaccine and they don’t even know what’s in it really got me pissed. Because I’m like, if by “they” you might be talking about me because guess what, I got the vaccine. And I kind of was like, I get the flu shot every year for other people. I’m not doing this for myself. I’m doing this for other people. Because guess what? I am young. I’m healthy. Well, relatively speaking, whatever. This is just –

Claire: Also, I don’t want to get the flu. The flu sucks. I’m not worried about dying from the flu, that doesn’t mean I want to get it.

Joy: Again, when you’re around people who are – yeah, we could go down that rabbit hole on a soap box. But I just had to, I was telling one of my other friends, I have to confess my sins. I just got into it with one of my friends on Facebook. And then it made me think of the Adam Grant thing where I’m like, I can’t change their mind. All I can think is can we at least try to rethink this? Think again. Can we rethink this? That’s all we’re asking. I think the thing that bothers me too. What do you think about this? The thing that bothers me too is it seems, and please be a devil’s advocate here –

Claire: You know me, I have no problem calling you out.

Joy: I know, please do. It seems to me that we are focused too much on the extremists, the extreme thinking, the extreme left, the extreme right. So that’s all we see right now. And to me, extremists don’t really want to listen to other options, do they? Or do they?

Claire: I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know if it’s even a want or a – like I think if you were to ask someone, “Do you even want to know,” there’s this point where people who have extreme beliefs are so convinced that they’re right that it doesn’t even matter. Like you were saying, I don’t agree with your facts.

Joy: Unfortunately I don’t agree with your fact check. [laughing] I can’t, I just can’t.

Claire: But that’s the thing. You can explain using data all you want, but what it comes down to is you’re talking to someone who has made decisions about what they believe based on –

Joy: Alternative facts, a lot.

Claire: Based on information that’s not fact-based.

Joy: Yeah, right.

Claire: And based on morals and values and feelings. And you know, the thing that I always try to tell myself is perception is reality. People are scared. People don’t know who to trust. And that’s really what we’re seeing is people don’t know who to trust so they go for the theory that backs up their fears because then it makes them feel more rational about being afraid. That’s what I have seen. Okay, well, if these people are saying that yeah the vaccine is untested, nobody even knows what’s in it, then that validates my fear about the vaccine and makes me feel like I’m rational for having this fear as opposed to me having to confront that I might be afraid of the unknown or of whatever. I don’t have to confront that. I can just be validated in what I’m worried about. I think that that’s the case for antiracism and for Black Lives Matter. People are like, “Well I don’t agree with the Black Lives Matter movement.” You don’t get to not agree with racism.

Joy: Yeah, oh God, don’t get me started.

Claire: You don’t get to not agree with that, but you’re pointing at that because it makes you uncomfortable to have to confront your privilege and how you have benefited from white supremacy.

Joy: 100%.

Claire: But rather than do that hard work, they would rather turn around and be like, “I know that racism is a problem, but I don’t agree with the Black Lives Matter movement.” 

Joy: The thing that bugs me about that is just because you’re recognizing. Like, if they just had to recognize Black Lives Matter movement somehow takes away from their experience is just infuriating to me because it’s like no, no, no. I’m not going to explain that.

Claire: I think that’s really where it comes from is from a place of an entire generation of people which started with the boomers and goes down through millennials who were never really taught how to deal with tough emotions and were just kind of taught let it blow over. And just ignore it and it will go away. Or not even ignore it and it will go away, but if you don’t acknowledge it, it’s like how people think that if you don’t acknowledge homosexuality, that it will just go, oh it’s just a phase. I think just as a group, this generation of, I can speak for upper-middle-class white Americans, were really not taught very many coping skills about how to deal with difficult situations, let alone difficult situations that reflect poorly on decisions that we have made with blissful ignorance. Nobody wants to sit down and be like, “I was super freaking ignorant for most of my life about this,” and you would rather think, “Oh, I’m still doing the right thing. These people are the ones who are wrong.” So I think that’s really what it comes down to is you are dealing with cognitive dissonance, and that is not a rational brain experience.

Joy: No, it’s not. And I think a lot about how if you are so steeped, and I’m just using my friend as an example, so steeped in a belief that you won’t hear that you’re defensive for anything you try to come back as, they’re like expecting it. And “they” as anyone who’s really stuck in beliefs is like. “We are armored.” It’s kind of like scientology where they have – I’m not comparing this, but here’s an example. Scientology has a book step by step of what people will do to counteract your belief, to try and come against your belief. They prepared that. So it’s easier to brainwash people when they’re like, “Oh, see he’s right. This is what people do.” It’s like that to a “T.” They have a whole book of, when someone comes at you for this reason, here’s exactly what you say. So I think people who have steeped beliefs also have that kind of playbook in their head where they’re like, people are going to come back. Here they are. Here they go. They’re going to send me articles.

Claire: I knew this was coming.

Joy: Fake news.

Claire: And then it just validates, I knew, I was told that you were going to say this.

Joy: Exactly, validates everything.

Claire: I think also though, I want to point out – a listener sent us an email about two weeks ago. Because you talk a lot about the Mormons and your pastor from Arizona. And she did bring up that even within the Mormon religion, those people are a lot of outliers. The church has made a statement, particularly about the Capitol, condemning the attacks on the Capitol. And that I just want to make sure that we’re not grouping and saying every Mormon doesn’t believe in racism. Because I also always want us to be aware that what we dislike about other people making sweeping generalizations is also easy enough for us to turn around and do.

Joy: For sure. And I 100% still do that. Because I was in that world, so it’s very hard for me to not catch my language when I do that because I have a lot of crap from that. And I own it, and I will admit that. But I also know there’s plenty of people who are open-minded, so yes, thank you for pointing that out. Thank you for bringing my bias to the forefront. I need to rethink that, Claire. I need to rethink that.

Claire: We’re working on it guys.

Joy: But one more thing though. At some point, I think that that in and of itself is something I hope anyone who holds that belief so strong that you are waiting for people to come back. It’s almost like anything people say, “I’m rubber, you’re glue” type of thing, but they won’t even hear it. And that I think is the dangerous thing. No matter what you believe, I think if you’re not open to rethinking and not open to reconsidering, I think that that’s what I’m worried about. Thank you, Adam Grant.

Claire: Okay. So we have a couple more minutes. Let’s do a few more quick questions.

Joy: Great.

Claire: Actually let’s do this one and it will probably take up the rest of our time, so just kidding about the quick question. A lot of people asked for this, “making and keeping friends as an adult.” 

Joy: That is difficult. It’s difficult.

Claire: It’s really difficult. It’s been nearly impossible during the time of COVID.

Joy: Nearly impossible. And for my experience, I’m going to speak from my experience is the way that I have made adult friends is when I am going to a gym or I’m going somewhere that other adults are regularly and I see the same people, the same adults regularly. So I think that’s really hard right now especially. And I think it just kind of depends too on your personality, like are you comfortable or able to do outdoor safe activities with groups. Probably not. Most of the things that we’re allowed to do right now are with your “bubble,” so when things open back up, get involved in something that requires you to be around a group of adults, perhaps like-minded, perhaps not. Doing an activity every week, see the same people, you’re going to make friends. And I’ve made really great friends through this podcast, mostly through the gym that I hang out with when we are able to hand out.

Claire: Yeah, most of the friends that I’ve made purely as an adult were through CrossFit. And also through work, that one can be a little bit trickier if there’s office politics. I think the biggest thing for me with making friends in CrossFit was going to the extra things. Like, oh some people are doing a hike on Saturday, I’m going to go to that. If we’re going to have a barbecue, I’m going to go to that. Going to the extra things. Even if your gym is open right now, the extra things probably aren’t happening. The other thing I would say is that I personally try to be pretty receptive to this, and I feel like people are kind of shy about it so no one’s ever just outright said, “Hey Claire, I follow you on Instagram and I live in Longmont. Do you want to hang out?” But in non-COVID times, I would be really receptive to that. I do have some people who live in Longmont who I know follow the podcast, who follow me on Instagram, who I’ve seen out and they’ll stop me and be like, “Claire, hey.” I’ve never hung out with them, but I would. I think that’s the other thing too is remembering everyone’s in a similar position. No one has really cracked the code on making friends as an adult.

Joy: No one has.

Claire: And then obviously the other kind of straight-forward way is if you have kids to try to make friends with your kids’ friends’ parents. Which sometimes works and sometimes your kid has a really cool friend whose mom is a weirdo. You know, been in that boat. [laughing] Not a lot you can do about that.

Joy: I love it. Okay. But I also think when we are able to do trips again, we have made really good friends through our trips. And people have made good friends on the trips as well. Camp Timeout, if we do that again, or any types of trips when we meet in Los Angeles. Please go to a Joy and Claire trip in the future because we make lifelong friends, and truly lifelong friends. We have our little Facebook group where I message people. I do Marco Polo with a lot of people that I’ve met through the podcast. I think it’s just great. I love having friends. I like to have a lot of friends.

Claire: “I love having friends,” says Joy. Breaking news, friends are good.

Joy: Friends, good.

Claire: Friends, good. I wish that we had a better playbook for you. I’m sure this is nothing that people who struggle with this haven’t heard about or thought about. I think it’s also hard if you’re an introvert or if you have something in your life that has made you believe that you’re a weirdo. If you were an outcast in high school, it might feel more daunting to approach your group. But I do think that when you’re an adult, it’s important to just remind yourself other adults are also looking for new friends.

Joy: Exactly, that’s a good point.

Claire: And we all feel awkward about it. One of my closest friends, literally she was Brandon’s lab partner when he was doing nursing school. And we had met a couple of times. She and Brandon had been in a couple groups together. And one day she just texted me out of the blue and was like, “Hey I got your number from Brandon. Can we go on a friend date?” And I was like, yeah, I would love that. And I also think that it’s important to be persistent. Don’t keep knocking on the door if nobody’s coming to the door. But my friend Heather, who we now talk about a lot and listens to the podcast – hi, Heather.

Joy: Hi, Heather.

Claire: We were pretty good in the summer about going on a walk together every Wednesday. Then it kind of dropped off this fall when Evie stopped sleeping, and she’s been so good about checking in every few weeks like, “Hey, do you want to start doing our walks again?” “Hey, do you want to start doing our walks again?” It never feels like she’s pestering me. It truly feels like, wow, Heather still wants to hang out with me. This is so nice.

Joy: Are you the initiator? Sometimes I forget to initiate and I’m like, oh duh, I should initiate.

Claire: I used to be and then I have gotten less so now that I have kids. Just because like –

Joy: You’re tired and you’re busy.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: But if people invite you to something, you’re like, “Yeah, I can make that happen.” But I have a friend, and she always is the initiator. But one day she was like, “I just want you to know. I always want to hang out with you and I know that you’re not the type of person to initiate.” Thank you for realizing that I’m not the initiator, that you’re working this out in our relationship. It was so funny. So I’m like, yeah, someone’s got to be the initiator. We’re not just both sitting around hoping they call. They want to hang out.

Claire: Right. And I definitely used to be a lot more of an initiator.

Joy: I did too.

Claire: I would like to get back to that. Brandon is really an initiator, but he’s a sporadic initiator.

Joy: Like that morning, he’s like, “Do you want to do a fourteener?”

Claire: Yeah. Not even that morning. It’s more like it just happens in waves. He won’t text anyone, and then all of the sudden one day he’ll text ten people. He’s like, okay, so I’ve lined up five dates over the next two months. And I’m like, what? Yeah, you’ve been on the receiving end of this.

Joy: I have. [laughing] “Hey Joy, how about we do a fourteener next week,” and I’m like, “Woah, where you been?”

Claire: The other day, Brandon was like, “I think Joy and Scott should come up, and they could do a workout in the garage, and I have some beer for Scott.” And I was like, “Joy can’t drink or work out.” He was like, “What happened?” I was like, “What do you mean, what happened? Do you listen to my podcast?” 

Joy: Actually, Scott really wants to come up, so we got to make that happen. 

Claire: [laughing]

Joy: And he can drink beer. 

Claire: Perfect.

Joy: So funny.

Claire: Alright. I really do wish there was a formula, but I do think it is just about remembering that it feels awkward for everyone and there’s no right – what I always tell myself – uh oh, sorry I just hit myself with the microphone.

Joy: We get real excited. Hand motions.

Claire: Hand motions. What I always tell myself about anything where there’s no playbook is if there’s no right way, then there’s no wrong way. I told myself that about deciding when to get pregnant. I’ve told myself that about changing jobs. If there’s no right answer, it means there’s no wrong answer.

Joy: Beautiful.

Claire: And there are better and more worse answers and solutions, but at the end of the day, no one has “the” answer because there isn’t one.

Joy: Can I make a request on friends with Words with Friends because I love Words with Friends.

Claire: You still play Words with Friends.

Joy: I love it so much. I play with my mom, and I need more friends to play with. I love it so much. I need to get better at it. My mom is actually really good at it, and Sandy is really good at it. God damn it, she’s so good. The words that she makes, I’m like, okay. I lose every game with Words with Friends. I don’t think I’ve won once. Maybe once with my mom.

Claire: Okay. To wrap up this episode, I need to share this Instagram caption that I just read.

Joy: Oh my gosh, what is it?

Claire: You know Jennifer Coolidge?

Joy: Yes, of course from –

Claire: Legally Blonde, yeah. The bend and snap lady.

Joy: And also, the MILF from –

Claire: Yeah, the MILF from American Pie. Okay guys, imagine her in all her glory. 

Joy: In her glory.

Claire: Jennifer Coolidge once posed as twins to date two men at once.

Joy: [laughing] Of course she did.

Claire: “Here’s the scene. You’re Jennifer Coolidge and you’re in Hawaii alone. You meet two guys, best friends in fact. You want to date them both, so what do you do? You remember that you’re Jennifer Coolidge and you date them both, posing as a set of identical twins. Her motto, ‘When you’re on vacation alone, you can kind of create anything you want.’ Inspiring. Noble, actually.” 

Joy: Oh my God, that’s amazing. I want some single person to do that ASAP. ASAP. But be COVID cool.

Claire: That’s amazing. Don’t you think at some point they’d be like, I’m not saying that Jennifer Coolidge isn’t Batman, but you’ve never Batman and Jennifer Coolidge together. At some point, wouldn’t  they be like, “I’ve never seen her in the room together.” They had to know.

Joy: I really want to know the outcome of that story.

Claire: Oh my gosh. Well I’m glad I was able to find that just in time to share it because it really just made my day.

Joy: That really just ended the episode well. Alright, so we are almost to Valentine’s Day.

Claire: Thank you for not saying that it’s just around the corner. I appreciate that you held back.

Joy: I really did not say it, and I want everyone to know that I finally found a gift that Scott didn’t influence, that I found on my own, that I think was the perfect Valentine’s Day gift. I’m very proud. It’s a ticket to Mike Birbiglia’s virtual show. And I love Mike Birbiglia. He has an amazing podcast, he’s an amazing comic, and he’s doing a live show. So I’m like, great, we can do a virtual hangout with Mike Birbiglia on Valentine’s Day. Scott and I had tickets to his live show last year that obviously got postponed. Check him out. Support Mike Birbiglia’s work. Support the arts. You know how strongly I feel about supporting the arts, especially as we have to open back up and support that field of work.

Claire: Do you want to give a two-second update about your little thyroid friend?

Joy: My thyroid. Sometimes I catch myself saying “tyroid” because I say it so fast. I’m like, no, it’s a thy-roid. 

Claire: Th-th.

Joy: Things are going great. I’ve been working with my naturopath, Dr. Cook, at Clear Creek Natural Medicine since November. It’s now February, so that’s three months. We are on a six-month treatment plan, and I’m feeling really good. My heart rate’s lowered, my appetite’s back up, I’m gaining back some of the weight that I lost, I feel strong in the gym. I’m not doing crazy workouts because I can’t get my heart rate up, but all-in-all the symptoms that were really bad, everything’s trending upwards. I almost don’t believe it. There’s a part of me that’s like, is this really happening? Am I really getting better? I have to just throw those thoughts away. But yeah, it’s pretty amazing. The stuff that we’ve been doing is pretty awesome. I love that she does this thing called hydrotherapy, which is sounds like a colonic but it’s not. You lay on a table, and – she always says that. “Every time I say hydrotherapy, they think I’m going to give them a colonic, and it’s not that.” And apparently this practice has been around for hundreds of years, and she learned how to do it in med school, and they did a whole rotation with hydrotherapy. I googled it. There’s not really a lot about it online, but basically you lay on a table and she puts hot towels on your chest. So you’re nude from the waist up, and she puts a hot towel on your chest, and you just kind of lay there for ten minutes. So it’s switching hot and cold towels. And while she’s doing that on one of the rotations – because she does that like five times, and you’re lying there for about 45 minutes just switching out these hot and cold towels – she puts these almost like a TENS unit, you know, that you put on your muscles to vibrate them, so if you have sore muscles it kind of deadens the pain receptors or whatever. She does that on your back, but it’s to stimulate the bunch of cells that are connected to all your organs. So she says it’s kind of like doing an oil change on your blood. So I do that every week when I go to see her, and it’s the most relaxing thing. Every time I get up, you have these lucid dreams the whole time, you’re just in this really beautiful trans-state. Yeah, the protocol she has me on, I’m still following the no dairy, the no sugar-fruit combo, and I feel really, really good. So I’m excited. Trust your body. Trust that you don’t have to get your thyroid killed. That’s all I’m saying.

Claire: Right. Trust that there might be other options out there that will work.

Joy: There might be other options. And when my doctor said, “Yes, I can help you,” I’m like great. Your faith is –

Claire: Right, trust that you are worth exploring other options if you want to.

Joy: Exactly. That’s good news.

Claire: Well good. I’m so glad. That hydrotherapy sounds amazing. I would like to sign up for that please.

Joy: Yes, it’s so good. Anyone can do it. You don’t have to have a diagnosis.

Claire: You don’t have to have a six-month treatment plan. I can just show up for a one-time oil change.

Joy: Exactly. Her dream is to open up a whole wing where she can just do hydrotherapy all day for people because right now she just has to do it. She’s like, “I’d love to have a whole wing of people who can do hydrotherapy.” Because you don’t have to be a doctor to do it, but obviously she knows how to do it, so she could have techs doing it all day for people who just want to come in. She’s like, “It’s just so beneficial for the system.”

Claire: It sounds amazing. I want to do that. 

Joy: It is.

Claire: Maybe I’ll make an appointment. Alright guys, well thank you for hanging out there with us on another beautiful Thursday. Welcome to February. We made it through January.

Joy: We sure did.

Claire: It didn’t even feel that long this time, probably because we’ve been in a time warp for the last eleven months.

Joy: Time warp. And I was also just putting my head down and not focusing on anything until the Inauguration. And then I lifted my head up and I was like, we’re okay, we’re okay.

Claire: We’re almost through the other side of January already. 

Joy: Right.

Claire: So thank you, and please shoot us an email. You can email us at You can follow us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can find us on Facebook or This is Joy and Claire on Facebook. You can find us on Clubhouse if you want to.

Joy: Get on Clubhouse.

Claire: Mine is clairehko. What is yours?

Joy: jzparrish. The letter “J,” the letter “Z,” “Parrish.” 

Claire: So if you’re on Clubhouse, feel free to find us, and maybe we will talk to you or do something. We did have a fun little impromptu chat with Laura Ligos the other day.

Joy: Sure did, we just kind of popped in there.

Claire: We talked to Armon for a little while. So that’s been fun.

Joy: That has been fun.

Claire: So you know, drop us a follow I guess? I don’t know. I don’t know the lingo. Not in the club. We hope you guys have a great week, and we will talk to you next week.

Joy: Thank you guys. Bye.

Claire: Bye.

Favorite products, inauguration chat, day in the life of J&C, Evie’s sleep update, and what’s going on with JT and Cadet!


instagram: joyandclaire_


Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. And Claire, right before we hit record, look what I found.

Claire: Aw, our planners from our last trip to LA.

Joy: I feel like all we do lately is reminisce about the last trip that we ever took before the pandemic.

Claire: I know. Everyone in the US and a lot of people around the world have that moment of where were you when you found out about 9/11. We’re all going to have that moment of what’s the last thing you did before COVID.

Joy: I’m going to repeat it again. The last thing I did before COVID shut everything down is I saw Middleditch and Schwartz. Middleditch and Schwartz, I can’t say it fast. Live. It was downtown and I saw t with my friend from work. We had so much fun. We were laughing so hard that we were hitting each other. You know when you’re next to somebody and you just start laughing and you hit each other and you push each other. We were just pushing each other back and forth the whole night because we were laughing so hard. It was just so funny. I’m so glad I have a friend that we push each other. It’s not like me pushing her where you’re like, “Oh my God, stop.” She pushed me back.

Claire: And her being like, “What are you doing?”

Joy: Yeah. But this planner, I saw this because I have so many stacked up planners that I have great intentions of writing in. But I just picked this up. I’m like, oh my gosh. I just remember, okay, we can reminisce really quick. That was when we went to Create and Cultivate. We got VIP passes to go to the Create and Cultivate event in LA. We saw Jessica Simpson speak and Antony.

Claire: And Antony, yeah.

Joy: Yeah. And we got our makeup done. We got our hair done.

Claire: That was so fun.

Joy: It was so fun. It was so much fun. I just had to go down memory lane.

Claire: I use that planner. It’s just a little notebook. I used that to take notes in, and now Miles has coopted it because he is into doodling.

Joy: Yeah, and remember all the products we got? And then we got all these stickers.

Claire: I do. I still use that Kat Von D mascara that they gave us.

Joy: Oh great. That’s a year old, Claire.

Claire: Tells you how I shop for products. I feel like a year is the mascara limit, right?

Joy: Do we have the list of the phrases people hate? Because one of them is, “I was today years old.” Remember when you did that post?

Claire: Yes, I do remember it.

Joy: I hate “I was today years old when.” I don’t like that one, but I’m going to say recently I found out that on the back of any product that’s a moisturizer or makeup product, there is on the back a little mini jar with a lid that looks like it’s coming off that has a number on it. That’s how many months the product is good for once you open it.

Claire: Hot tip.

Joy: Hot tip, I didn’t know that. So if you have any products, like a jar of moisturizer, cream.

Claire: Any cosmetic.

Joy: Look at the back at the tiny little jar. I don’t know where I saw that somewhere, but it was like, wow, fun fact. I did not know about that. But you can also, fun fact, smell your products. And if they have a weird smell, you should probably throw them away.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: Especially lipsticks. You can smell that right away. Just doesn’t smell good. Smells like clay. It starts to smell like clay.

Claire: That’s how all my makeup smells. 

Joy: You should toss that.

Claire: And then we also talked recently about the fact that perfume can go back. Because Brandon has this cologne that he has had since our wedding, which was seven years ago now. 

Joy: No, throw it away.

Claire: And he still wears it to date night. 

Joy: No, it goes bad.

Claire: So strong. I appreciate the nostalgia, but it doesn’t smell the same. Get a new bottle.

Joy: There might be a little jar tip on the back of those too, just take a look at it. If it’s over 24 months. And mostly, I have not seen one with more than 24 months on it. Mostly, like within a year is just a good time to go through all your products. So now that we’re talking about products, I have to go through some of my products. I’ll look at a lipstick, and I’m like that lipstick that I used when we did our photo shoot like three years ago, this should probably be tossed. I don’t wear lipstick anymore. It’s really sad.

Claire: Well let’s dive into some product recommendations because people asked for some, and we’re on the topic already. Let’s just dive right in.

Joy: Okay. This is not a product that I’m going to be using forever, but I was turned on recently to by my naturopath, and I’m sure everybody listening is like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe you’re using that.” It’s called New Wash. It’s a shampoo that is basically a non-detergent shampoo. I was telling my naturopath that lately my – one of the symptoms of Graves’ is you can get really oily skin, so I was noticing my hair was getting more oily. She was like, “Oh you should try this. My hair stylist turned me onto it. It doesn’t have any detergents. Detergents really strip your hair.” I’m sure hair stylists out there are like, “Yeah, duh.” But it’s basically like a wash that feels like a conditioner, and it’s supposed to not strip your hair of all the oils and you can go more days between washes. So I ordered it. It’s kind of expensive. But I was like, well, I’ll give it a try. And I washed my hair. You have to really scrub your scalp. And I was like, for sure this is going to make my hair greasy because it literally feels like a conditioner when you’re washing your hair. But it’s great, and actually I didn’t have to wash my hair as often last week. I felt like it’s more shiny. So I don’t think I’m going to commit to being that person that doesn’t – because I was my hair pretty –

Claire: Right, there’s a whole of “no poo” –

Joy: Yeah. I don’t know if I’m going to go the route because I like to wash my hair and I like to use different products.

Claire: You’re like, I like that squeaky-clean feeling.

Joy: Yeah. So I think that what I’m going to do is I’m going to incorporate this into my routine and probably do two or three weeks of not washing my hair with shampoo and just using the new wash. Truly you can go for longer in between shampoos. And so we’ll see how it goes. I just started using it, and I like it a lot. My hair’s not been greasy. It feels really good. It looks really shiny. New Wash. I believe the guy who created it, he works for Bumble and Bumble. I believe it’s Bumble and Bumble, so I really like that brand. I trust them.

Claire: I trust that guy. I tried to do the “no poo” movement. We talked about this years ago, I feel like. And then I also tried to do the Curly Girl thing, which my hair is naturally actually pretty wavy curly. Very wavy, bordering on curly. And I finally just realized that anything outside of a conventional shampoo and conditioner is not something that I’m going to spend money on. And anything outside of air drying my hair and maybe zhuzhing it a little bit from there is not a commitment I can make. The Curly Girl method, you would think that air drying your hair and having these natural curls would be so low maintenance because there’s no tools involved. It is the opposite.

Joy: Is the air dry Curly Girl method just air dry with nothing in it?

Claire: No, there are so many products involved. And it depends on who you are. The Curly Girl method, they have a whole line of products. But basically it was just such a whole thing. Like every time you go to the shower, there’s this whole process you have to go through, and then you get out of the shower and it’s a whole other process. Then you can’t touch your hair. You’ve got to sleep with the thing on your head. I was like, you know what, I’m just going to use a freaking curling iron. I don’t care. I recently started using – oh gosh, I’m not even going to remember what it is. It’s a type of spray from R+Co, and it is called –

Joy: Is it Dream Catcher?

Claire: Is it the Dream Catcher?

Joy: Do you have to shake it before you use it?

Claire: Don’t you have to shake all sprays before you use them?

Joy: Well, this one’s like you really have to shake it to combine it.

Claire: No, then that’s not it. Zig Zag, I think it’s called.

Joy: Oh, that’s a dry spray. It’s not a wet spray. Zig Zag is a dry spray, like a dry shampoo.

Claire: That sounds right.

Joy: Sun Catcher, Dream Catcher.

Claire: So here are the two that I’ve used in the past that I like. The Balloon dry volume spray I like from R+Co, and it’s really, really great after a workout if you’re working out in the middle of the day and you then have to get right onto a meeting. It really just helps kind of lift your roots so that you don’t look sweaty even if you are sweaty.

Joy: But it doesn’t sink into your sweat? Because that’s what I don’t like about dry shampoo.

Claire: This is not a dry shampoo. 

Joy: Oh, it’s not a dry shampoo.

Claire: Volumizing spray.

Joy: Volumizing, got it.

Claire: So it’s not a dry shampoo. I will use maybe a little bit of dry shampoo, and then I will use this and it lifts up your roots. But it’s just a really good hair style refresher.

Joy: And it’s called Balloon?

Claire: It’s called Balloon, and I would use it even if I was going to put my hair back into a pony tail because it keeps you from having that slicked back, sweaty look.

Joy: Slicked back pony. You want a little bump. You want to bump it.

Claire: Yeah, or you just don’t want it to look like you were just literally dripping sweat and you are a greaser.

Joy: Do you remember bump its?

Claire: Yes, I 1000% remember bump its. I never had one.

Joy: I did not either. That was totally Jersey Shore style. Which by the way, last year they had a comeback. I did not watch it. Anyway. So I do use Zig Zag.

Claire: Zig Zag’s like a teasing spray though. 

Joy: Okay, as much as I really love R+Co products, I wasn’t super impressed with it. On my hair, it just didn’t do much.

Claire: Oh see, on my hair it does a lot. Especially now that I have the center part, it really gives some –

Joy: Maybe I’m not using it right. I zhuzh it, but I just don’t feel like it gives me the vavoom voom.

Claire: It doesn’t give you the zhuzh that you need. It’s low zhuzh.

Joy: It’s low zhuzh. 

Claire: So first of all, I found that it can’t be the only product that you’re using. You also have to have a shine cream or something in there to –

Joy: Absorb the zhuzh.

Claire: Yeah. So first you shine, then you zhuzh. As you guys know, I’m basically a beauty influencer. 

Joy: First you bend –

Claire: First you bend, then you snap. Everybody knows. 

Joy: Okay. Speaking of R+Co, I also use the Cactus shampoo.

Claire: Oh, I did, yes.

Joy: That works like bananas.

Claire: Very texturizing.

Joy: Very texturizing. If you don’t put in product afterward and just letting it air dry, you’re very susceptible for it to be really, not frizzy, what’s the word? Like, staticky. Your hair will just start floating up. So I use that, and if I put conditioner in it after, if you’re not using the texture – because I only got the shampoo – you have to put in a teeny tiny bit of regular conditioner on the ends, so you have some moisture in there so your hair doesn’t fly away. But I do like the Cactus shampoo. Because that stuff that’s texturizing makes your hair super, super volumy. My hair’s just been a little bit flatter lately. The autoimmune stuff too affects how your hair is. I feel like that’s been helping a lot. But I’m a huge fan of the Streicher Sisters. I think they’re so cute. Next time I got to LA, I’m totally going to their salon and buying a bow or something. But they’re so cute and they have a product line through R+Co. So they developed Sun Catcher, Dream Catcher, and Zig Zag.

Claire: Oh, I didn’t realize. I knew that they were a partner. I didn’t realize they actually did – okay, got it.

Joy: So they created those products.

Claire: Real quick. Hot tip. 

Joy: Hot tip.

Claire: So you said the thing about your hair doesn’t have as much oomph. I used to love Desert and I used it all the time. And then when I went through postpartum, if anyone here is listening who’s had a kid in the last two years you know that your flyaways are just bananas. I have crazy bald spots. The Cactus shampoo is bad for that. 

Joy: It’s bad for that because it will just accentuate the flyaways. 

Claire: Really bad for flyaways. So that’s when I stopped using it. If you are someone who is recently growing out a bald patch for whatever reason, that product is not for you.

Joy: Not for now.

Claire: Not for now.

Joy: So R+Co’s great. I’ve been playing around with their products a lot. So if I was going to buy something over again, I do like Dream Catcher but I’m having a hard time. Maybe I need to reach out to the Streicher Sisters. Dream Catcher makes my hair a little greasy, so I’m maybe doing too much, too little. I don’t know if I’m rubbing it in enough. I need to play around with it a little more. I don’t think I’m doing the zhuzh quite enough.

Claire: Your zhuzh could use zhuzhing.

Joy: Yeah, my zhuzh could use some zhuzhing. So I follow the Streicher Sisters because Ashley Streicher who’s the hair stylist of the three – so there are three sisters. One does brows, one does makeup, one does hair. Super cute salon. They do all the celebs, like BFFs with Mandy Moore.

Claire: And aren’t they the ones that are making the standup brows, which to me is the most hysterical. The first time I saw that, I was like, am I being trolled?

Joy: I could probably do it if I would actually go and have her do my brows because I think it’d be great.

Claire: Why don’t you just use a glue stick?

Joy: Because she trims them so they’re not sticking all the way up.

Claire: You could trim them. Do you have nail clippers?

Joy: Yeah, I don’t want to trim my brows. That scares me, that scares me.

Claire: Really? You’ve never trimmed your brows?

Joy: No, never.

Claire: I trim my brows all the time.

Joy: Do you really? I wish you could see Claire. She’s pushing her eyebrows up. You look like Charlie Chaplin. 

Claire: Yeah, I am like descended from the Eugene Levy. I mean, not literally.

Joy: Yeah, you are.

Claire: But we have kindred eyebrows.

Joy: You do.

Claire: Oh yeah, I have to trim my eye brows all the time. Otherwise I get Albert Einstein wires. It’s not hard. It’s not as scary as you think. Although, the consequences of me messing up my eyebrows are so low because they’ll grow back within moments. Any time I get a back wax, I’m like, eh, this will grow back next week.

Joy: Yeah, it’s so funny. So a few years ago I bought one of those little eyebrow trimmers that’s literally this big. It looks like a pencil, so you just trim your eyebrows. I think it was like $5 at Target. And I’ll never forget the first time that I was using it, I flipped it the wrong way. So the angle that I had it ended up chopping my eyelashes off.

Claire: What? Your eye lashes?

Joy: Yes, because there’s two sides. There’s a tiny side and there’s a longer side. So the angle that I was doing my brows caught my eyelashes. I wasn’t paying attention to the other side, and it chopped my eyelashes off.

Claire: You’re lucky you didn’t stab yourself in the eye, geez.

Joy: Beauty blunders.

Claire: For real.

Joy: Any other products that you’re loving? We just went off on R+Co, but truly the people that I follow for products is the Streicher Sisters. I love Cupcakes and Cashmere. She always does fun beauty products. Busy Phillips sometimes posts some cute products, so I’ll follow her at times.

Claire: Busy Phillips stories lately, I feel like she’s filming for something and sometimes she comes on and it’s like drag queen. She’s so much makeup.

Joy: Yeah, she’s filming for a show that Tina Fey is doing.

Claire: Oh cute.

Joy: It’s called Girls5Eva. It’s about a girls’ punk band or something.

Claire: That’s really funny.

Joy: I’m really excited to see it, so yeah. I’m like, Tina Fey, no big deal, just doing a show in New York City. I love that. Yeah. So she’s got super glam makeup at times.

Claire: I’m trying to think if there’s anything else. I mean, I’m not a products person really. So I’m trying to think if there’s any snacks or foods that I’ve been into lately from brands. Oh okay, here’s one.

Joy: Okay.

Claire: So I get a lot of DMs on my personal Instagram about canned fish. You guys know how I feel about this, but here’s what people are saying. They’re like, Claire – Joy is going to throw up. They’re like, Claire, I want to eat more canned fish. How do I get started? You guys are probably thinking, Claire, no one’s asked you that. This is like, people have been asking me about my skincare routine and you just want to talk about tinned fish. I don’t. People ask me this. So here’s what to do. 

Joy: I know there’s a lot of people out there that love it.

Claire: It’s because it’s, and here’s the thing –

Joy: It’s probably so good for you.

Claire: It’s really good for you. It’s high in Omega 3s. It’s high in protein. Three’s a lot of zinc and stuff in certain tinned fishes that you can’t get a lot of other places very easily. It’s cost effective. It lasts forever. It’s just a great pantry staple if you can learn to love it. So, here’s what you got to do. Everybody knows tuna fish. Start with how you feel about tuna fish. If you think tuna is too fishy, then go to mackerel. Mackerel is not as fishy as tuna. If you’re fine with the fishiness of tuna, go to sardines. But start with bristling sardines. Bristling sardines are like baby sardines. They’re not as fishy, and they’re not as bony. You can eat the bones in full-size sardines, but sometimes you kind of crunch them going down. Okay. Sorry. [laughing]

Joy: It’s for the fans of fish.

Claire: And then also, a similar amount of fishiness is canned salmon to tuna. Everyone’s familiar with the flavor of salmon, but it is pretty oily in a canned version. So you definitely are going to want to turn it into cracker dip the first time you eat it. Then once you’re feeling pretty good about the fishes, then you can move onto the mollusks. So clams are really, really good canned. I love the Patagonia ones, and then there’s another company called Scout that both Patagonia and Scout are super, super high-quality sustainability for all their fish and canned fish sourcing. Then there’s another one that’s got an Italian name and I’m sorry that I’m not going to be able to remember it, but they have really good muscles. It’s a red box. They taste pretty ocean-y, so you got to be ready for that. If you’re not into the ocean flavor, then you’re not going to like canned muscles. If you don’t like regular muscles, you’re probably not going to like canned muscles. Versus like canned fish can be prepared pretty mildly.

Joy: What are those round things?

Claire: Muscles?

Joy: What are those round little things that you can eat?

Claire: A round little thing to eat that’s a fish…

Joy: It’s seafood. I got sick on it once.

Claire: You’re thinking of scallops.

Joy: Scallops, thank you.

Claire: I don’t think those come in a canned version.

Joy: No, I just thought of seafood, and I was like I got sick off of scallops one year.

Claire: It’s easy to get sick off scallops. Especially if you make them yourself. They’re harder to DIY than you think.

Joy: No, got them at a restaurant downtown, and I wrote them and they never wrote me back.

Claire: Travesty. And now you can’t eat canned muscles because of that one time. Scout, the company that I was talking about, also has a canned lobster that I’ve never tried. I really want to try it, but it’s very expensive, so I have never taken the plunge. Anyway, and both Patagonia and Scout will ship to you. So I will also say, tuna obviously, salmon, and sardines can mix it with mayonnaise and it kind of tastes more like a dip. A lot of people don’t think about mixing sardines with mayonnaise. You definitely can. Scallops you cannot, don’t try it. Always start eating them on toast or a cracker or something, and start with a little bite. Don’t just go straight from the can. You’re going to freak yourself out. So there you have it guys. Claire’s –

Joy: Really good for you –

Claire: Intro to tinned fish. If you’re interested. If not, that’s fine. Don’t eat it.

Joy: If you’re interested, dip your toe into a can of fish. Can we take a little curve into acknowledging the amazing Inauguration last week?

Claire: Yes.

Joy: I mean, everyone saw it.

Claire: I cried.

Joy: It was amazing. I started crying when Kamala did her oath –

Claire: Sworn in.

Joy: – when she was sworn in. Got super emotional when she was sworn in. And also how cute when Joe Biden, when he was like, “Alright” after she got sworn in. He’s like, “Yeah!” Gave her a little cheer. I think the highlight was obviously Amanda Gordon and her amazing poem that just kind of rocked the world.

Claire: Amanda Gorman, right? Not Gordon.

Joy: Oh, sorry. Amanda Gordon. Wait – Amanda…

Claire: Gorman.

Joy: Amanda Gorman.

Claire: There you go.

Joy: And Gaga was great. I feel like her pin –

Claire: Her broach, yeah.

Joy: Her broach. 

Claire: Although, I also saw a very felt-really-on-point tweet that was like, “Let the hunger games begin,” and it was her with her big broach. Yeah, that is very Mocking Jay.

Joy: It really was.

Claire: You look very Capitol people right now.

Joy: Yes. I loved her. I always love a Gaga moment. J Lo was great.

Claire: Also, probably my favorite tweet from the Inauguration – and there were a lot – but probably my favorite one was, “I can’t believe Mike Pence has seen Gaga live and I haven’t.”

Joy: Yeah. I mean, so many crunchy old white men seeing Gaga before me, it’s just live, it’s not fair. But no, I think my favorite moment from the entertainment standpoint was when J Lo threw in a, “Let’s get loud.”

Claire: That was funny. I was like, really? Right now? Okay.

Joy: Really? Should we all stand up, I’m so confused.

Claire: Not a choice I would have made.

Joy: Let’s get loud. Oh my gosh. Anyways, she was great. One of our friends made a good point that she must have had some serious vocal coaching because she was really good. Not that she’s not a great singer, but you wouldn’t expect that precision.

Claire: Sure, right. She’s not known for –

Joy: Not a lot of background hoopla. She really nailed it. So good job, J Lo.

Claire: Loved it. It was a big moment. I’m not a crier, and I definitely cried. Okay, this episode, as you can tell, is going to be a little all over the map. We asked you guys for some ideas for content for the next couple of episodes. Some of them are going to be bigger topics than other topics, but we wanted to just get to some of the quicker ones today. So we’re going to start really quickly with a day in the life. Do you want me to go first?

Joy: Sure.

Claire: Okay. So here’s a day in my life. And my days look a little bit different depending on if I can fit in a workout or how busy my workday is, but that’s probably true for everyone. I’m just going to give you the gist. So I am not a morning person, and I have tried so many times in my life to be a morning person. 

Joy: Don’t fight it.

Claire: I just can’t do it. So on a normal day, I just let my kids wake me up. I haven’t set an alarm in like five years because the kids wake up first. So the kids wake up sometime between 6:30 and 7:30. I get up and make the kids –

Joy: How’s Evie’s sleep going?

Claire: It’s getting so much better, oh my gosh. Evie’s sleep is getting so much better.

Joy: Okay, great.

Claire: We ended up buying – we, I – ended up buying the big little feelings course, which is a parenting tips. It’s two women. One of them is a mom, and then one of them is – I mean, they’re both moms. They’re best friends. One of them is actually child neuroscientist or something. And then the other one, I don’t want to say is “just a mom.” But she’s not also –

Joy: Sure, right.

Claire: It’s like you and me. We talk about feelings. You’re a psychiatrist. I’m just someone who has feelings.

Joy: Right.

Claire: So I was going to buy the Taking Care of Babies. Which first of all, Taking Care of Babies has gotten super dramatic now because everyone found out that she donated a bunch of money to the Trump campaign and she’s a baby sleep influencer. She has a 1.3 million followers on Instagram.

Joy: How did they find out she donated money?

Claire: Because all the campaign donation records are public.

Joy: Ohhh.

Claire: And so not only did she personally donate, but she donated on behalf of her business.

Joy: Oh. 

Claire: Which was a bad move.

Joy: Bad move.

Claire: I mean, anyway. I’m not going to go down that. So I didn’t buy her course. This was prior to that information coming out. Prior to that, I decided not to buy her course because it’s mostly for just up to 24 months. And since Evie is 23.7 months old, I was like this is not going to be relevant to me. So I bought the other one which is for kids 1-5. And the sleeping section is sort of – not an afterthought, but it’s only one of eight units. So at first I was worried, like, oh this isn’t going to be enough. But if you’re somebody that already has a toddler, let alone also an older kid like we do, I didn’t need to start at square one. I have a lot of sleep experience with different sleep tactics. We did Cry it Out with Miles. That was fine. We’ve Babywise. We’ve done a bunch of different things. So I didn’t feel like I needed to start at square one. The Big Little Feelings, what their sleep section did for me was help me reorganize what I already knew and just give me some clear, like, okay here’s what you got to do. You’ve got to make a schedule. You’ve got to communicate it to your toddler all day. And then you just have to follow through on the schedule. And then here’s what you’re going to do when they cry. It was sort of putting the pieces back into place that I already knew, but helping me format them where and make a plan in a time of panic about sleeping. Like when you’re sleep deprived and you’re just desperate, even though you know all the stuff it’s really hard to bring it together into a cohesive plan.

Joy: Yeah, that’s great.

Claire: So what we’ve been doing is we do dinner and we tell her, “First dinner, then bath, then teeth, then jammies, then sit” – which is where we just sit and rock her – “then night night. And when it’s time for night night, I’m going to close your door and I’m not going to come back in.” Close the door, she screams, one minute later I go back in and say, “I love you, goodnight.” Close the door. Two minutes later, go back in, “I love you, goodnight.” The first night, I had to go back in –

Joy: Building increments.

Claire: Right. So then at three minutes, you just go back every three minutes for the rest of the night. And three minutes of a kid screaming feels like an hour. And if I felt like she really had redlined, I would have pulled the plug. But the first night, it took her about 20-25 minutes of a variable amount of upsetness before she finally laid down and went to sleep. Second night, about ten minutes. Third night, none.

Joy: Wow.

Claire: And I was like, is this all the freaking I had to do this whole damn time? I’ve been sitting in her room two hours a night for three months, and all I had to do was explain to her that when night night time comes, I’m not going to come back. I was so mad. 

Joy: All you needed to do was communicate.

Claire: On the one hand, I was like, thank God, this is a lot of [00:23:53.21 UNCLEAR]. But on the other hand, I was like, are you freaking kidding me? All this time, all I had to do was tell her, “First jammies, then night night.” What the f***? So anyway. 

Joy: She just needs to know what’s coming, just needs to know what’s coming.

Claire: And then we have a timer. She’s obsessed with the timer. She wants to just set the timer and just watch it. She called it Tina. [in Evie’s voice] “Tina?” I forget what I was even talking about.

Joy: You were talking about your schedule. I derailed you on the sleep thing. I apologize.

Claire: It’s okay. Kids wake up. We make breakfast. Maxine, who is our au pair who lives with us, comes upstairs at 8:30.

Joy: Did she get extended by the way?

Claire: Yes, she’s extended until the summer, and then we’re probably going to try and get another extension so she’ll be here until this next year. So. Maxine comes upstairs at 8:30. We sort of co-parent I guess you would say until I go downstairs for work at 9. Sit in my little office from 9, on a perfect day, until 11. At 11, I drive to the gym. It takes 25 minutes to get there. I know this is crazy, but I really like my gym. And I don’t like –

Joy: It’s a great gym.

Claire: It’s a great gym. And I go to CrossFit Roots. I love it there, and I have not loved the closer gyms. And it’s also really close to my office, and one day, one day guys the office will reopen and I will get to go to my gym and it’s only going to be seven minutes away.

Joy: So excited. And I’ll meet you there because one of my offices is so close to your office.

Claire: Love it.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Can’t wait. It’s some far off distant future. I go to the gym. I work out from 11:30 to 12:30. I drive home. Sometimes I’m on a call or doing something in one of those transits. I get home at 1. I eat lunch. I work until 5. At 5, I go upstairs and I start making dinner pretty much immediately. Maxine at that point we’re sort of co-parenting. She stays on the clock until 6. At 6 o’clock, I’m trying to have dinner on the table. We eat dinner. That takes somewhere between 20-30 minutes usually. And then we do bath. First bath, then brush teeth –

Joy: Then jammies.

Claire: Then jammies. And then Miles goes downstairs and I turn on a movie for him. Then I put Evie to bed. So Miles gets a movie that starts usually around 7. Because that was the other thing we realized was we were trying to put both kids down at the same time. And Miles is five, he doesn’t need to go to bed at 6:45/7 o’clock at night. He should be going to bed at 8/8:30. And especially because he’s a later sleeper. He’s usually the last one in the house who’s awake, so we were just trying to put him to bed too early. So he goes downstairs, and he get to watch a movie. In the summer, that might change because it will be nice out. Maybe he can go on a walk with dad or something, but it’s January. Put Evie to bed. At that point, I clean, I sit on the kitchen floor for five minutes and then normally I just go downstairs and finishing watching Miles movie with him, put him to bed, and then I go to bed.

Joy: And curate memes. 

Claire: I curate memes throughout the day really. So that’s my day. There’s not a lot of free time in there, you may have noticed. My drive to and from gym, maybe I’ll listen to an audio book. Right now, I’m listening to Leaders Eat Last. It’s okay. And then on the weekends, it’s pretty much just parenting the whole time. And then also, you know when I’m working the kids are constantly coming in. You might be able to hear them screaming in the back right now. So it’s not as linear as that, but there you have it. Alright, Joy. Your turn.

Joy: Alright. Here we go. So I wake up to dogs. So Cadet’s on a schedule, and she usually gets up between 1 and 3 to go to the bathroom. It’s always going to be that way. She’s almost one year old, so it’s like, whatever, she gets up early. I’m waiting for the day that she sleeps through the whole night. So she gets up and then she gets me back up around 4:30/5 o’clock. So I’m usually up between 4:30 and 5, hang out with the dogs for about an hour, and I just putz around. I listen to The Daily. I make coffee, feed Cadet, and then I go workout at the gym or do a little treadmill walk. Come back, shower, go to work. Work all day. Then I usually come home and walk the dogs. During the day, I’ll usually take a lunch break, and I’m usually walking a dog during lunch. Then I come home at night and I walk dogs. Then I either end the podcast, depending on what day it is, or we have dinner and then we watch a show. Scott and I will pick a show or movie or something to watch. Or Scott will play a video game if I want to watch Bling Empire or some type of reality show that he doesn’t want to watch. He loves video games, so he goes and plays his video game. That’s our life. That’s been our life since March 2020. We don’t go anywhere, we don’t do anything. We walk our dogs outside, we come home, we watch TV, we go to the grocery store occasionally, we order food in. That’s a day in the life of Joy.

Claire: I should add that sometimes Miles goes to school. On Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, he goes to basically an outdoor playgroup from 1-4. 

Joy: Oh, that’s nice.

Claire: It’s really far, it’s like 25 minutes away. Why? I don’t know. I make bad choices. We try to have it so that the same person doesn’t drop him off as pick him up because then that’s just so much driving for that person. So usually I go one direction or the other a lot of the times. So there you have it. Those are days of our lives.

Joy: We have very exciting lives. You know, we shouldn’t have exciting lives right now. 

Claire: No, it’s so true.

Joy: Because we’re still in a pandemic.

Claire: Although this time last year that’s pretty much what my life looked like too, that I was at the office working and I would take a lunch break and go to the gym. Okay, the other thing that we were going to do today. So I was talking via text to Megan, who Megan and Joel were on our podcast that we did back in April where we were interviewing some of our listeners about being in quarantine. So Megan and Joel were on, and then Tina was on if you guys want to go back and listen to the episode. I don’t even know what number it was.

Joy: Oh my gosh, yeah.

Claire: That was so fun. And Megan and Joel also went to Iceland for us and came to Camp Timeout. The point of the story is I was texting Megan.

Joy: And they’re the best.

Claire: She’s the best, they’re the best. We were talking about my egg breakfast that I’ve been making with the oatmeal.

Joy: It looks great.

Claire: It’s so good. If you guys don’t follow my personal Instagram, it is quick oats made with unsweetened vanilla almond milk and then you put a soft-boiled egg on top. No, it’s not weird. Everyone’s like, “Okay, but here’s my question: is the almond milk too sweet?” Unsweetened vanilla almond milk has almost the exact same flavor as just cooked oats. So really –

Joy: It kind of blends right in.

Claire: The whole situation is very mild, but I love it. So we were texting about that, and I used an acronym in texting that she didn’t know. She was like, “Wow, I had a really good time figuring out what that acronym was going to mean. You guys should do a segment on the podcast where people send you these random acronyms and young people speak and you try to figure out what it means in real time.” We are going to do that now. 

Joy: Oh my God. I’m going to lose. I already feel like I’m 80.

Claire: So we asked for your submissions. If we don’t know what it is, we’re going to guess what it might mean and then we’ll look it up. Okay, let’s start with “yeet.” Yeet.

Joy: Like yeesy? I don’t know. Oh my God, I’m already losing.

Claire: I think it means… 

Joy: I think of Kanye.

Claire: Get rid of, go away. I just think of like the throw away, I guess. I don’t know. Let’s see what it means.

Joy: Okay, like get?

Claire: Okay. “Yeet is an exclamation of excitement, approval, surprise, or all-around energy, often as issued when doing a dance move or throwing something.” 

Joy: Oh yeah. Great. 

Claire: Okay, here’s the full Urban Dictionary entry. “To discard an item at a high velocity.” 

Joy: Okay.

Claire: Okay. The secondary definition is, “A word one may scream while propelling an object through the air at alarming speeds.”

Joy: Okay. 

Claire: So that’s kind of… those are all… to throw with some force. Great, now we know. “Cap, no cap.”

Joy: Cap, no cap?

Claire: Yeah. Like I don’t know, can you use it in a sentence? I think people just say it. No cap. I don’t know.

Joy: Does that mean like grammar? I don’t know. I feel so old. Okay, what is it?

Claire: I don’t know.

Joy: Cap, no cap. 

Claire: Cap, no cap. “The expression ‘cap’ is slang meaning a lie or B.S. The expression no cap is slang meaning ‘no lie’ or ‘for real.’” So if you say, “no cap,” it’s like, “for real.” And “cap” is like “B.S.”

Joy: No lie. 

Claire: Why? 

Joy: I don’t know.

Claire: Okay.

Joy: Okay. Lost number two. Let’s keep going. I love periot.

Claire: Periot-t-t-t-t. 

Joy: It’s so great.

Claire: Why? Why?

Joy: Periot. Because sometimes you just need a periot.

Claire: Periot-t-t-t-t.

Joy: I love that one. 

Claire: That one is just an emphasized. 

Joy: Someone said, “Please tell people that Netflix and chill does not actually mean watching a show on your lounge set.”

Claire: That’s true. If you guys didn’t know that, it means hanging out and having sex. Now you know. “Snatched.” Does it not –

Joy: Does not mean taken.

Claire: Not pertaining to the Olympic lift?

Joy: It does not. Or it does not mean taken. Snatched is the new fleek. “It’s used to describe anything that looks really good or on point.” I love how I’m reading this so proper.

Claire: Right, academically.

Joy: “Anything from your eyebrows to your outfit can be snatched. If your eyebrows are slaying, they’re snatched. If your outfit is slaying, it’s snatched.” 

Claire: Sounds very close to “fetch.”

Joy: I like “fetch” better. Okay. 

Claire: “Stan?”

Joy: Stan, nope.

Claire: I could use it in a sentence. Like you can stan a person, and I think it means that you really like them. “An overzealous or obsessive fan of a particular celebrity or to be an overzealous or obsessive fan of that particular celebrity.” So if you stan someone, you just love them.

Joy: I like that one.

Claire: I wonder where it came from. “Stan is slang for someone who is a very zealous fan, especially a celebrity or music group. Stan could also be a verb for liking something a great deal.” Like, you can stan something. “I can stan that” means like, “I love it.”

Joy: How about, what’s “bet”? I looked that up. “Bet is in response to a statement. Slang for ‘fo sho.’”

Claire: “Fo sho” is slang. You can’t have slang for slang.

Joy: “Slang for ‘fo sho,’ which is slang for ‘for sure,’ which means ‘sure’ or ‘okay.’”

Claire: Thank you. So bet just means for sure.

Joy: For sure. “Everything is set?” My friend: “Bet.”

Claire: Got it.

Joy: For sure.

Claire: “Ham?”

Joy: Going ham?

Claire: Yeah, going ham.

Joy: Going ham on… on ham.

Claire: Going ham on anything. Just means you’re going really hard. “FOMO.” We all know fear of missing out. 

Joy: Great.

Claire: “TLDR.”

Joy: Oh I love that one. Too long, didn’t read.

Claire: Too long, didn’t read.

Joy: That one didn’t come up. I didn’t learn that one until way later.

Claire: “IYKYK.” If you know, you know.

Joy: If you know, you know.

Claire: Let’s see here. We only have a few more left. At least I know the acronyms. Somebody says, “P.s. I work with a 23-year-old. Makes me feel old every day.” [laughing] “Slaps.” Like, that’s slaps? Like, that’s good, right? 

Joy: Okay.

Claire: Isn’t that what that means.

Joy: Sure.

Claire: Okay, great. “Ship?” I think it means if you ship somebody. Like, you can ship – I’m going to be wrong. I think it’s like you can ship two people, like you want them to be a couple.

Joy: “Shipping refers to the phenomenon. A ship is the concept of a fictional couple. To ship a couple means to have an affinity for it in one way or another. A shipper, or a fangirl/boy is somebody significantly involved with such an affinity. A shipping war is when two ships contradict each other, causing…” I don’t understand this at all.

Claire: This is a lot of ship. You can use it as a verb. Like, “I just ship them,” like you want them to be together. I only know that from Instagram.

Joy: Okay, now I’m going to Urban Dictionary. “Ship, usually two people who you ship. Meaning that you either want them to become an item, kiss, or enter into a romantic sexual relationship. Usually when you ship someone, you smile when they interact somehow or become extremely giddy when they do something together.” 

Claire: That hasn’t been clear at all.

Joy: I like this in a sentence. “I totally shipped Dean and Castile.”

Claire: Great.

Joy: I shipped them.

Claire: You like them together.

Joy: You like them. You would like them to be together. Okay.

Claire: Got it. I think that’s it. “Simp?” I think this is from an internet game. What’s that game…?

Joy: The Sims?

Claire: No, not the Sims, definitely not. “Simp is an internet slang term used pejoratively for someone who is seen as using excessive sympathy and attention toward another person in order to win their affection.”

Joy: Okay, I like that.

Claire: Urban Dictionary defines a simp as “someone who does way too much for a person that they like.” Great. Okay guys, well that just made me feel – I’m only 33 and that made me feel so –

Joy and Claire: Old.

Joy: At least I know what outfit of the day is.

Claire: OOTD. I’m glad I knew what “yeet” meant. That made me feel good.

Joy: Yeet.

Claire: Yeet. Oh my goodness. Oh, here’s the other one. “Suss.” That one’s the one’s that from a game. Suss. Isn’t it like, suspicious? Just a word for suspicious?

Joy: Sure.

Claire: “Giving the impression that something is questionable or dishonest. Suspicious.” Yeah, where does this come from? “A short term used by Among Us kids” – that’s the name of the game, Among Us – “to describe something or someone suspicious. When someone does something to show that they are a possible imposter.” I don’t know how Among Us works at all –

Joy: I don’t either.

Claire: But I did know that “suss” was from that. Thank you, guys, for allowing us to have no idea what stuff means. That was very fun. Do you want to give a quick update on JT and Cadet and then we will wrap it on up.

Joy: Yes. Absolutely. So JT retires this week. For those of you who missed the story that I put, I think I also posted this on Instagram, but JT has been working with me through Canine Companions for Independence. It’s a service dog agency that provides service animals free of charge for people who apply for them. Either you are someone who needs a service dog, a service animal. If you have a physical disability or some type of disability where you need an animal present to help you. If you’re a parent with a child with a disability that would be beneficial to them, you can have it’s called a skilled companion dog. And then they have a third category called a facility dog. So JT is a facility dog, and he’s been working with me in behavioral health since 2013. We became a working team in 2013.

Claire: I can’t believe it’s been that long.

Joy: I know. So I remember, we started the podcast that year and I’ll never forget I went out to California to train with Canine Companions and we had to record a bunch before I left. And so I think it just is so funny that I got him the year when we started recording. So over the years, he’s been working with me on and off. I worked at the diversion program for the DA’s office before I came over to Kaiser. So he’s been working in different settings with different groups with different types of patients. And then when he got sick this fall, you may or may not recall if you follow us on Instagram that he had pneumonia in the fall, so he got really sick. And then just since then I started noticing him kind of slowing down a little bit. Not in the sense that he was going downhill, but I just knew in my heart –

Claire: He’s just getting older.

Joy: He’s just getting older. He just turned nine. And by the time our office is really open back up again, he’ll be 10 and I don’t know if I want to keep working him that hard as he gets older. The other thing that led me to retire him was the agency CCI, we recertify every three years. So every three years, they contact you. You have to go through the commands. A trainer will watch you to make sure that you’re still a working team and that the dogs still know all their commands. So they emailed me and they said, “Hey, JT’s certification is up. It expires the end of January. We’ll just schedule you with a trainer to do a video over Zoom and we’ll watch the commands,” and I was like, you know what, I need to talk to the graduate office. They have people who actually talk to graduates and make sure that you’re a good working team. And so I talked to the graduate office and I said, “This is what I’m noticing with JT. I think it might be time for him to retire.” So we had a good conversation. They ran through all the things that you should be looking for in a dog that’s ready to retire, and they’re like, “Joy, we’re so glad that you called us. Because normally it’s us calling the graduates telling them that it’s probably time to retire their dog. And it’s actually better for the dog’s health to make sure that they’re living out their golden years relaxed and happy and just living as a dog.” So we made the decision together. His license, his certification, expires this week. So he’ll live the rest of his life with us as a pet dog, and we’re going to be just focused on training Cadet. So that’s the story with Mr. JT. A lot of people think that we’re going to keep Cadet or that Cadet is going to replace JT, and that’s not how CCI works. So when you sign up to raise a puppy, you’re raising the puppy to then give back to them after they are 16-17 months, and they go to advanced training. Once they go to advanced training, if they pass all the commands and all the benchmarks of advanced training, then they are matched with someone who needs a service animal. So the reason they do that is you don’t know when a dog gets to advanced training how they’re going to emerge, what their personality’s going to be like, what strengths are going to show. So they will evaluate what the strengths are for that certain dog and then match them with the type of person that is applying for the dog, so they do a really good job of matching people with the perfect dogs. So it’s going to be hard either way, but it was really cute. Someone recently DM’d us. I think it was your friend Heather. She was so cute. She asked if we were going to keep Cadet or if Cadet was going to replace JT, and I was like, no, explained what I just said. And she goes, “Oh, so either a family wins or the Parrish’s win?” I was like, yes, that’s a great simple way to put it. Either a family or an individual who needs a service animal is going to get her, or if she doesn’t pass training then we get to keep her as a pet. 

Claire: Win, win.

Joy: Win, win, yeah.

Claire: And you have said that you are likely not going to pursue getting another animal that you work with.

Joy: Right. Probably not, only because looking forward in my life over the next maybe 8-10 years because applying for another dog would take another year in and of itself, I don’t know what my career is going to be like for that long. I’m probably not going to be doing a lot of therapy moving forward. I’ve been doing a lot of management work in the clinic, which I’m still able to work with JT because I’m still around patients and stuff. But I don’t know what my job is going to look like even years from now. Back then, I knew that was my path for a long time.

Claire: And in a way, gives you more flexibility too because you aren’t kind of beholden to this contract to use a dog in a certain way in your job.

Joy: Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Claire: Versus somebody who, for them it’s a companion animal where they’re going to need them no matter what they do.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: Well there you have it.

Joy: There you have it.

Claire: So how much longer do you have Cadet? 

Joy: She will be with us through the summer, so I want to say her turn-in date that they gave us is August. I’m already preparing in my mind for July because it’s very likely that they will turn in dogs earlier, so I’m just preparing myself for July.

Claire: It’s going by so fast.

Joy: I know. She turns one in February, which is insane. 

Claire: It’s crazy. And it’s crazy because you got her after COVID started.

Joy: Yeah, right after COVID started.

Claire: She’s going to be COVID training dog. None of us will ever get to hang out with her.

Joy: I know. It’s just so funny because she’s such a cool dog. And like today, we worked on a lot of commands at work, and she’s such a cool presence to –

Claire: Has it been hard not being able to take her, you know, you can’t, like the mall’s not open or whatever. Like places where there aren’t crowds where she can be around. Is that a problem?

Joy: Not really because we’ve been around the office a lot. And I take her walking in places that are pretty busy, like traffic-wise, traffic noise.

Claire: To try to make up for that?

Joy: Yeah, to try to make up for that. And so with crowds, I think that’s a really good point because she won’t have that experience of being around crowds, but I do take her to work a lot and I’ll walk her around the clinics. We go over to primary care. We see the nurses and the doctors, and so there’s people around her. That’s been a good practice for her because she knows how to get into the car and get out of the car on her own. She knows the drill of waiting for me to open the door, so there’s little things that she’s already learning just from going to work with me. I was afraid of the same thing. Probably in a couple months, I’ll probably take her to Target or the grocery store when I don’t really have to have anything to go get just to have practice of taking her into a different store or a different environment. But work, it’s kind of cool because work already has scenarios that she’s going to encounter. Like doors that open, the revolving doors that open.

Claire: Right, your elevator.

Joy: Elevator, stairs. So there’s things that I just kind of walk around and practice with her. But it is going to be different, and CCI knows that. We’re in contact with them constantly. We have this blog that we read all the time and they’re like, “We know this is really hard during COVID. Just do what you can. These dogs are really smart. It’s going to be okay.”

Claire: Well, because I remember you saying that the family that raised JT would take him at Disney Land constantly. She’s not going to have anything like that, obviously.

Joy: No, yeah. The family that raised JT lives in Anaheim, and they’re just the sweetest family. They have like ten kids, and he had an annual pass to Disney Land, so he would just go every day and take JT to Disney Land.

Claire: That’s so amazing.

Joy: It’s the best. They’re the best. And their last name is Wolf, and so I’m a part of the Wolf pack when I got JT. 

Claire: How cute.

Joy: They’re like, “You’re a part of the Wolf pack,” yeah.

Claire: So will you know who gets Cadet.

Joy: Yes. So CCI, here’s the thing too. I will know, but it’s also – CCI does a very good job and I know why they do this. They don’t ever want the graduates to feel like they have to keep in touch with the puppy raisers.

Claire: Sure, yeah.

Joy: And I get that. I think it’s an important practice because these people are getting dogs for service. They don’t want to have to feel like they owe anything to the puppy raiser. But most people want to know who raised their dog.

Claire: For sure, you’re curious, like what were they like as a puppy.

Joy: Yes, totally. But there may be some people that they just need the dog or maybe they can’t verbally talk, those type of things, you just don’t want to ever –

Claire: Right, there’s other communication –

Joy: There’s other communication. So I mean, when I got – they give you a little card of who your puppy raiser was. And when they have the graduation ceremony, the puppy raisers can come to graduation and then they pass over the leash when they turn the dog over to the graduate. It’s all very emotional. Everybody cries. I don’t know if we’ll get that experience this year. Actually, we probably will because she probably wouldn’t graduate until 2022. So they give you a card of who the puppy raisers were. And so of course when I met them, I’m like we are keeping in touch. I text them all the time. I let them know JT was retiring. They’re just so sweet. They’re the sweetest people ever.

Claire: that’s so cute. Well, there you have it. A big dog update.

Joy: Yeah, I hope whoever she ends up with if it’s not us, I definitely hope they keep in touch. It’ll be really hard.

Claire: I mean, is there anything yet, if she was having a hard time, like if she wasn’t going to meet her training milestones if you will, is that something like a red flag that already would have started coming up or not necessarily?

Joy: No, not necessarily. Because I’ve had puppy raiser friends who are like, I will never forget one of my friends James raised this dog Pilar and she was a hellion and she graduated with this badass motorcycle guy in a wheelchair. It was the perfect fit because her personality was just like, oh my God, that’s so Pilar. And so it was hard to tell. I remember when we dog sat for her and I remember after she left, Scott and I were like, “Oh my God, she’s a hell-“ She was just a handful you know, so it was just really funny. But she passed, and so it’s really hard to tell.

Claire: I was really thinking the other way around. If she’s doing really well obviously and learning all her commands and she hasn’t really even temperament, would you be able to tell by now if she was, you know – 

Joy: If you’re like, oh this isn’t going to cut –

Claire: Pilar was more like, oh my gosh, we’re surprised she passed. But you’re more like, from what I’ve seen with you working with Cadet, it would be almost a surprise at this point if something came up where she wasn’t going to pass. Does that happen?

Joy: Yeah, for sure it happens, and it may happen as they get older too. For example, JT developed a fear of thunder and lightning that just got stronger over the years, so we just have to work with him and it’s fine. With his nature of work, it doesn’t affect his job. Because if we’re at work, he doesn’t usually react as much as when we’re at work as when we’re at home. I don’t know why, but that develops a little bit stronger, like we didn’t notice it for the first three or four years we had him and then over the years it kind of developed. There’s definitely things dogs can develop over time, and we just never know when she gets to advanced training she might all of the sudden be like, “I don’t like statues.” You just never know.

Claire: Right, like she only will go in the elevator with Joy.

Joy: Totally, totally. So right now, the thing that I pick up with her is she’s a very head strong dog and when she wants something she will tell you. She will sit there sometimes at work. When she’s ready to go, she’ll sit there and look at me and do this cute little, I can’t even mimic it, it’s this cute little honk that she does. It sounds like a honk. It’s not a growl. It’s not a whine. She just pushes this sound out of her. And I’m like, that is Cadet being Cadet. Cadet’s on a schedule, she’s very routine, she loves her routine. So that could be a really good thing because she likes structure and she will react well to training, or she’ll be like I don’t want to do that, I’m not going to do that. So it could go either way. So that’s the one thing I noticed about her personality. She’s just super headstrong, and it works great when you’re training with her because she’s very determined. 

Claire: But she wouldn’t do well in a flexible –

Joy: Yeah, if it goes against her, that’s something where she’s like, “I don’t want to do this training. I don’t want to do this, I don’t like this routine.” That’s where I could see her not doing well. But she’s a dog, I think she’ll be fine. Yeah.

Claire: Right. Oh my goodness. I mean, you probably have learned so much, but I really had no idea that so much went into this whole process.

Joy: Oh yeah.

Claire: And I think to this day we give people who reach out to us, and not to say that, again not to call anybody out, but we get people who reach out to us who are like, “Hey, I have this puppy and I want to train him to be a service dog.” Or like, “Hey, I just adopted a rescue and I want to train him to be a service dog,” and it’s like, that’s not how that works. 

Joy: That’s not how it works.

Claire: You can train a dog to do a lot of these behaviors, but it’s not the same thing as having a certified service dog that has been trained from birth.

Joy: Yeah, and I think it would be important – I haven’t watched it yet because I have this weird thing, I don’t like to watch movies with dogs because I just cry too much. So I’m like, if you watch Pick of the Litter, what I’ve heard is, it’s really good showing people what it’s like to train a service animal. People can email me and ask questions if you want, but the one thing I’ll say. Why can’t I just train my dog to be a service dog is because you don’t know the temperament of what that dog is going to be from a puppy. Yes, train your dog. Train your dog. I think it’s a good pet parent to train your dog. Make it have manners. Crate your dog. Train your dog. Blah blah blah. Do all those things. Wonderful, you’ll have a well-behaved dog. You will be happy. The dog will be happy. The dog likes structure. But let’s say you just adopt this dog and you’re like I want it to be a service dog, the dog may not like crowds. The dog may not get along with other dogs. The dog may bark at other dogs. The dog may be stressed out when it goes into a store. You just don’t know these things, so you can’t fit a square peg into a round hole type of scenario, which is why I think it’s so great that CCI raises these puppies, they go to advanced training, they determine if it’s ethical for the dog to be a service animal. So you can never make –

Claire: Well like we were just talking about, even after two years of dedicated training, they sometimes still decide sometimes this dog is not, there’s some weird freak thing that’s not going to make this dog a good fit.

Joy: Yeah, so surface sensitivity. Like if dogs get surface sensitivity. JT kind of developed that a little bit in his older years. He doesn’t like slippery surfaces, and that developed over time. Again, doesn’t bother our work because we don’t need him to be like right next to us –

Claire: But if you had to take him with you everywhere and he had to open the doors for you in a hospital with slippery floors, yeah.

Joy: And he’ll go, like at work he goes on the slippery floors, but you can just tell he tries to hurry a little bit. He’s like, “I don’t like this.” So those types of things. If a dog develops some type of sensitivity or starts to have a prey drive, you just never know. Yeah, a lot goes into it, so if you see puppy raisers just give them a little wink and a nod because it’s a lot of work. We love it. We will always look back on 2020 and be like that’s the year that we got Cadet and we raised her, which is so cool. Instead of being like, yeah, this whole pandemic year. We just raised a dog for CCI.

Claire: Alright guys. Well, I think that’s it for this week.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: We have some bigger topics we’re going to cover in the coming weeks. We’re going to take a break from voice memos. We ended up not getting too many voice memos about superstitions. If you guys are like, “But I sent in a voice memo.” 

Joy: We love you for it.

Claire: We love you for it, and we listened to them, and we loved them, and we just didn’t have quite enough to make a segment out of it. And it also made us realize, you know what, we need to take a little break. You guys kind of feel a little tired of sending in your voice memos. So in the next couple of weeks, we’re going to be talking a little bit more about reviving some old Girls Gone WOD themes around body image and around diet culture.

Joy: A lot of good topics.

Claire: A lot of great topics. People always want marriage hacks. We’re going to be talking a little bit more about that. We’ll continue to talk about politics. I think as we get through Biden’s first 100 days, we’ll have a lot to talk about.

Joy: Yep. Very important things.

Claire: I’ll be continuing to give you some updates on climate policy and all of that. We’re also going to try and get a few more interviews here in the next couple of months. It’s been hard with COVID. Even though we’ve always done interviews on Skype, the demand on people for doing digital anything is just so high.

Joy: They’re just so tired.

Claire: That it’s been weirdly hard to get, even when people are doing more Zoom and Skype meetings than ever, people don’t want anymore.

Joy: You just have screen fatigue. You’re like I don’t want to be on screen more.

Claire: Totally screen fatigue. Totally. We have so many things coming up in the next couple of months, and we are excited to just be here to chat with you guys. So send us anything that you want to talk about. We always really, really love that. Because sometimes we get to the point where we’re like, what are we going to talk about this week.

Joy: Yeah, send us questions, send us ideas.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: Send us ideas. We love answering questions.

Claire: We hope you guys are having a great week, and we’ll talk to you next week.

Joy: Thanks guys.

Claire: Bye.

Joy: Bye.

Deep breaths. We have a new president and (female!!) vice president. Some people still want to believe conspiracy theories, how do we have productive conversations with them? Joy’s health issue update, and a reminder to please not comment on people’s bodies.


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This is Joy & Claire Episode 58: Facts or Feelings


Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: And this is Joy and Claire. And I’m really excited because when you are listening to this, we will have a new president.

Claire: Officially.

Joy: Don’t say it too loud because I don’t want to jinx anything. Oh my gosh, a new, new world.

Claire: So good, I know. But you know what, it’s Monday night, a brand-new week. You guys are going to hear this toward the end of the week, and I feel like now after our first episode of 2021 when in between our recording and the release there was a violent mob that tried to attack the Capitol Building and knowing that there is a large presidential event planned for this week, who knows what could happen. Anything could happen.

Joy: Anything could happen. And I apologize in advance if you listen to this and the crap hit the fan. 

Claire: I apologize if you’re listening to this from a panic room.

Joy: Oh my gosh.

Claire: I know. Funny, not funny.

Joy: Funny, not funny. But here we are. You know what, I noticed? So, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I listen to a lot of news podcasts, and I try to vary my news. Scott and I try to be very good about that. We’ll watch Fox News sometimes for a mere moment just to see what they’re doing, but most of my podcast I kind of check – is the media bias chart still an accurate way to check where your news comes from?

Claire: I mean, I think so. And I think that they update it pretty regularly?

Joy: Okay, good. So I always look at the media bias chart to make sure that my news is not far, far left. Right. So I listen to NPR. I listen to the Daily, New York Times, and then I’ll listen to some other podcasts sometimes like NBC, ABC, whatever. And so I’ve noticed – I may be jinxing this too, but as of today they’re not talking about the president. They’re not talking about him. They’re moving on. They’re talking about Kamala. They’re doing interviews with Kamala. They’re talking about Biden’s rollout to vaccinate the entire United States. It feels really good to not have that negativity in my ears first thing in the morning. I know it’s my choice, but every day you hear some catastrophe. I’m really excited to not have that.

Claire: Well, I mean, who knows if we’ll still be hearing catastrophes.

Joy: Well, you know what I mean. The person who’s causing most of the catastrophes.

Claire: We don’t have to hear his voice anymore. I was getting to the point where I couldn’t even hear his voice and it would create this knee-jerk reaction that if I heard it on the radio I would just have to change the channel. I was like, I can’t have this stress reaction so much anymore. Okay, one thing though. Some people have called this out and I’m curious about it. Why are we calling Joe Biden “Biden”, but Kamala Harris “Kamala.” 

Joy: Oh, I didn’t know that.

C; I’m just curious. Everybody’s doing it. We don’t call her “Harris,” but we call Joe “Biden.” 

Joy: His brand was Biden. Her brand was Kamala Harris.

Claire: I don’t know. He’s Joe. 

Joy: I haven’t really paid attention though I guess.

Claire: Yeah. Most people refer to him as “Biden,” and then most people refer to her as “Kamala.” And it’s just an observation that I have made. I think it’s interesting.

Joy: She in the interviews calls him the President-Elect. I think she’s doing a really good job because I know people who will criticize her think that she’s going to take over or whatever wrong perception they have about her. They’re like, “She’s just going to take over.” She does a very good job of talking about Joe Biden being the president. So this is Joe’s decision. Because I think there’s just so much of, “She ran for president, so she’s got an agenda. It’s got to be Kamala’s agenda.” Everybody’s like, “Yeah, good, she’s got a great agenda.”

Claire: I would love that. I think that’s ideal. I think that’s what we deserved, and instead we got another old white guy.

Joy: Just another old white guy. Isn’t that a song?

Claire: No, you’re thinking “pretty fly for a white guy” I think.

Joy: [laughing] That was close, that was close, that was close.

Claire: So far, so far.

Joy: I’m really impressed you remembered that though. 

Claire: You know, I think it’s like the head motion you did. That’s the “pretty fly for a white guy” head move. Everybody does that.

Joy: That was the move for “fly for a white guy.”

Claire: That’s the move. Oh my gosh.

Joy: Oh my gosh.

Claire: That song was also, it came out when I was – gosh, I’m going to have to look up when it came out.

Joy: Middle school. Because I was in college.

Claire: I think it was before that.

Joy: Oh really?

Claire: It came out in 1998. So I was ten years old for most of 1998. 

Joy: Yeah, I was in college.

Claire: And the Offspring were the closest thing to a punk band that was mainstream, and 5th grade Claire was like, “I’m so hardcore, I listen to Offspring.” And I know that I didn’t get any of the direct references or sex references. I remember listening to that song on my Walkman at the mall.

Joy: That’s so funny. I listened to so much Pearl Jam when I was in junior high and Nirvana. I will never forget when I first heard “Smells Like Teen Spirit.” I was in my garage. Because we lived in my garage – not really lived, but we were always out there because my dad was always in the garage working on stuff. My brother’s friends loved my dad, so we’d always hang out in the garage. And I remember my brother playing that song, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, what is this?” And everyone’s like, “This is the best.” The grunge era was so cool. Okay, speaking of music. Today I asked Scott – he always asks what our topics are even though every time –

Claire: Brandon too.

Joy: – for the past almost eight years since we’ve been recording –

Claire: I don’t know.

Joy: – we never have a plan. And so he’s like –

Claire: Brandon’s always like, “What did you guys talk about?” I’m like why do you even ask that question anymore because the answer is going to be the same.

Joy: “I have no idea, listen to it.” But Scott won’t listen to this. He’s like, “What are your topics?” And he said, “Are you going to talk about the inauguration.” I’m like, “Maybe.” I said, “Are you going to talk about the inauguration?” So now I just start flipping it on him. I’m like, “What do you want to say about the inauguration?” He’s like, “[sigh] Well, I think art is going to have a huge renaissance after all this is over.” I’m like okay, I can appreciate that. So he thinks there’s going to be a huge wave of amazing art that came out of this Trump era and pandemic, and I can’t wait for it. If Taylor Swift has a third album, by God.

Claire: I know. If we got two albums from Taylor in the thick of it, imagine what she could come out with in the aftermath.

Joy: Right. It’s going to be amazing. So that’s what he thinks. It’s going to be this huge renaissance of art. He can’t wait for it.

Claire: I think that’s great.

Joy: He worries about music making a comeback. He’s like, people can consume art and books. I think he said he worries about music, not making a comeback but kind of being bolstered back up. Because concerts went away. There really was no great way to consume live events that way.

Claire: Right, like there’s only so many times you can be like, “Oh my God, Alicia Keys is going live on Facebook.”

Joy: Right, exactly. Exactly.

Claire: So today when we’re recording this is Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, and I have really found it very interesting to see people posting a lot of his less popular quotes or the popular quotes but in context. And it’s crazy to me, again, it’s actually not crazy to me because I’ve been thinking and reading about this stuff for the last now almost year. But for Martin Luther King, Jr. in particular, I read a tweet this morning that said, “MLK Day is the original Black square.” I was like, oh my God, that’s so true. For everyone just posting the “darkness cannot drive out darkness” quote. I thought it was really interesting and I thought it was timely also with all of the Capitol riots and all these people being convicted. It’s like, oh my gosh, I’m going to find my neighbor was there, this guy I went to high school was there, or whatever. My neighbor was not there, to be clear. But as an example. And my mom was telling me that my stepdad’s brother, the town he lives in is very conservative and the sheriff’s son was arrested for having stormed the Capitol. And everyone in the town, instead of being like, “Woah, maybe we should take a minute and think about the things that we as a town -“

Joy: Critique. Right, yeah.

Claire: Instead, they all went, “Oh my God, I can’t believe that guy was Antifa.”

Joy: Oh, dear God.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: Really?

Claire: Yes. 

Joy: Call your dad, you’re in a cult.

Claire: Yeah. And then now the people who are having these armed protests, which is your right, which I don’t necessarily, whatever. But they’re now starting to wear “f*** Trump” shirts so that more people will be like, “Look, they’re Antifa.” They’re trying to dress – and one of them had a gay pride flag. They are trying to dress the way that they think the “Antifa,” which isn’t real or whatever you want to think about Antifa, would wear.

Joy: As decoys?

Claire: As a decoy, yes.

Joy: Like, hey, we’re proving the point that Antifa is really responsible –

Claire: Antifa’s the one that stormed the Capitol.

Joy: Of course.

Claire: It doesn’t make any sense at all because now you, human, are being taken photos of on every social media platform. What’s your end game here? Everyone, they’re going to see you and be like, “That guy is carrying a gay pride flag, wait a minute.” Anyways, there’s just a lot of craziness continue to happen. We didn’t solve anything by electing Joe Bide and Kamala Harris. We didn’t solve anything. And we just, I think, prevented absolute – I mean, we saw a glimpse of a little bit of what we prevented. But I wanted to take this opportunity to just bring all this up because I don’t know if you’re read a couple of the articles that have come out recently. I think Apple News did one. I think SelfSelf? Elle? One of those fitness magazines did one that was talking about the role of white women health and wellness influencers in spreading these conspiracy theories and that it’s rooted in this type of personality that is very like, oh, I don’t believe in Big Pharma. I don’t believe in the traditional medical advice. I don’t believe in the traditional establishments, like traditional education. I want to ask all these questions. Which, that’s fine. American society is not perfect, and a lot of things are treated as one-size-fits-all that are not one-size-fits-all. But then QAnon and all of the conspiracy theories that orbit around that, their real tagline and thing that they do is they’re like, “We invite you to ‘do your own research.'” And so they’re really snagging those women – and I say women because it’s mostly women – who are in that headspace of I don’t want to vaccinate, I’m worried about the glyphosate in Cheerios. You know, like glyphosate in Cheerios is real, be worried about it, but who then are like I do my own research. So that’s how they’ve kind of been getting swept into this. Remember that girl on my Instagram about Joe Biden who went crazy about not wanting to vote for Joe Biden because he was going to force everybody to get vaccinated?

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: That. That is how it starts. So I wanted to bring that up because I feel like we tend to think this problem of these radicalized conservatives is far away from us because most of the people around us except for a few notable outliers are very similar to us. Or the differences that we do have in ideology, we’re really open about it, we have conversations about it, and it’s not whiffs of conspiracy theory. But that made me think, we actually are probably a lot closer to it than we think. And a lot of people listening to this are probably a lot closer to it than they think. And it’s not enough to – how am I trying to say this? I want to challenge us and everyone listening to stop thinking that it’s not your place to have that conversation or to make that comment or to ask that question or to call something out, regardless of where you think it’s going to go. I know we’ve said this a hundred times. “Well I just don’t want to put myself in that position because it’s not going to go anywhere.” Don’t do that anymore. We’ve crossed a line as a society. We’re on shaky ground. And if it’s not our job, then whose job is it? Who else is going to come in and talk to people and say, “Hey listen, I heard you saying that you think that Joe Biden is going to force everyone to get vaccinated. Can we have a conversation about that?” The other thing that I read that I thought was really interesting –

Joy: This is no longer about just saying this to your neighbor. This is saying this with hundreds of thousands of followers. Like people that would be like, “Woo” just like those dolls in Toy Story.

Claire: Yeah, and then you have like, we see even Sam Dancer, he’s been saying a lot of those types of things, people have mentioned him to us. And they were like, “Yeah, he’s always been doing a lot of [UNCLEAR 00:12:54.12] or whatever. But he’s a great example of somebody who – and I have not been following him. I’m just using him as an example because he’s been mentioned to us. But that type of person who’s very like, “I’m not just going to follow my doctor’s orders. I’m just going to send my kids to public school.” That’s all fine.

Joy: Challenging every single –

Claire: Yeah that, but where’s the line then?

Joy: Sure.

Claire: And now I’m wearing a tin foil hat every day.

Joy: Yeah, it’s a little bit of a crossing over from reality.

Claire: Right. And it’s just hard to know. But I think I know that I very much have had this feeling of well, I’m not going to say anything because what’s it going to do.

Joy: That’s what I think.

Claire: It’s not going to make a difference.

Joy: Nothing gets solved on social media.

Claire: Nothing gets solved

[CROSSTALK 00:13:29.29]

Claire: But then I think, yeah, maybe nothing gets solved on social media. But at the same time, I know that on my personal Instagram I shared a ton of stuff about people’s side effects from vaccines. And then even before that I shared a bunch of stuff that I found interesting that was written by science accounts that I follow about some of my concerns – we talked about this – about how quickly the vaccine was created. And a lot of people have said, hey, I had a similar question about this, and thank you for finding this information because this helps me and helps me talk about it. Even though, again, maybe I’m not the one who’s going to convince somebody to change their entire ideology, I might encourage someone else to encourage someone else. How many ripple effects does that have every time that you’re the person that says, “Hey listen, I hear that you’re worried about this. Here’s what I’ve heard, and here are the fact checked resources that I’ve gotten information from. Let’s talk about this.” That’s not always going to work. In fact, probably most of the time it’s not going to do anything. But I just want us to challenge us to speak more about it. Whoever you are and wherever you are. That’s the thing I think about with this Capitol incident and just everything recently is there have been so many articles that people have been writing about we have to stop this narrative that “Trump country” or whatever are just a bunch of uneducated people in the south. Ultraconservatives, QAnon, they’re just these uneducated white guys living in their mom’s basement snorting Cheeto dust. 

Joy: Right. Which is hard to not imagine that.

Claire: Right, but that’s not who these people are.

Joy: Right.

Claire: They’re the sons of judges. They are veterans, cops, you know. They’re educated, and white supremacists are recruiting on college campus. This is not – 

Joy: And underground thing.

Claire: This is not an underground thing. I’m not saying, “White supremacists are out there recruiting.” They literally are. Literal handouts of white supremacist materials have increased on college campuses.

Joy: Like blatant?

Claire: Yes.

Joy: Really?

Claire: Yes.

Joy: Like, hey, we’re white supremacists, come on?

Claire: Like, hey, white supremacist messaging that’s like, “Hey, if you’re white come to this thing.” And white, European decent, right. Because that’s the whole thing because white Middle Easterners have stolen all of the, anyway whatever. The whole anti-Semitism thing. I mean, not whatever about anti-Semitism. So I think that – who knows, maybe I sound like a left-wing conspiracy theorist where I’m like, “These white supremacists are recruiting.”

Joy: But here’s the thing. Here’s what I really want to point out too is even as we have this conversation, I want to have an educated discussion and not a heating discussion. I want to have a respectful conversation with someone who maybe, not a white supremacist, but a republican –

Claire: Who thinks Joe Biden is going to make us all get vaccinated.

Joy: Yeah. Because we’ve gone from that conversation – I read an article about this too. This is no longer about politics. This is about the deep, deep issues of the United States that is has just been bubbled to the surface. It’s always been there. But we can longer have a conversation about politics. It’s like, you can’t talk to someone about Trump without the Trumpers coming at you with evil and spewing hate.

Claire: And I think it’s like, that’s been my experience and that’s my assumption, and I don’t want to have that assumption. We thought once Trump is out of office that “Trumpers” would go away, and we’re seeing that that’s not going to be the case. By Trumper at this point, really what I mean and what I think we should be saying is white supremacist. However, it’s not just extremist white supremacist. And that is really I think what I have been thinking so much about recently is somebody doesn’t just wake up and become a white supremacist. They get there over time, and it’s not fact-based thinking. It’s emotional thinking. It’s based on your morals. It’s based on your fears, and those things are super, super powerful. And it’s important to make decisions based on your morals, but at what point does that value of being anti-establishment, at what point does that cross the line into now you are willing to get violent, willing to spread misinformation not caring about checking your sources and not caring – at what point does anti-establishment cross the line into every man for themselves.

Joy: Maybe it’s feeling special and there’s this huge group, so it’s maybe not even questioning that because you maybe lean strongly towards the right, so all of the sudden you have this group that’s willing to take you in. It’s back to that cult mentality where you’re like I need a family, I need a place to belong. And this is just me throwing out ideas because I really try to understand this. You need to feel like you belong. If it’s a male thing, you need to feel powerful in some way. You have a cause to fight for. When you have that many numbers of people saying the same thing, this is what you get.

Claire: I just think I want to really ask us all to stop turning the other way and worrying about agree to disagree. 

Joy: Agree to disagree is the worst.

Claire: And what’s the line also though, what’s the give and take of finally standing up and having those conversations versus going to a place of emotional burnout and just absolute energetic dump. I don’t know. I think that’s a thing that I need to work on, I need to figure out. Even if it’s not, hey, go into social media and start leaving a bunch of comments on everybody’s Instagram. It’s not just uneducated, white guys living in their basements with 30 years’ worth of food in a bucket who were storming the Capitol. It’s your sister’s husband. It’s your coworker who’s always posted weird right-wing stuff on Facebook. It’s your neighbor who –

Joy: It’s my neighbor from my hometown.

Claire: Right, it’s your neighbor from your hometown. If you are close enough to that person, stop thinking that it’s not your job.

Joy: Okay, here’s my question because I’ve been thinking about this a lot too. If I was to go to this person, and I don’t know him that well anymore but let’s pretend that I knew him very well, and when that person is so into his beliefs it’s almost a self-fulfilling prophesy when I come to him and be like, “Hey, I’m really concerned about what you’re posting. Tell me what you’re thinking right now.” And for him to be like, “You’re trying to change my mind.” And automatically be defensive and be like, “You leftists, this is what you do.” It’s that, you’re crazy type of mentality.

Claire: At that point, my question would be to you, if that guy were to walk into a government building and blow himself up or some super extreme activity, would you rather think “I tried to reach out to him” or “wow, I saw that coming.” And I think at that point it does sort of become a little bit, not completely altruistic. I want to feel like I’m making an effort. 

Joy: Yeah, just being like, “Are you okay? How are you doing?”

Claire: Slipping a note to them under the counter, “Do you need help?” I also think that that’s a huge assumption to think that immediately that’s just going to be –

Joy: That’s my fear.

Claire: And I think that’s valid. And maybe that person is far enough away from you that it doesn’t matter and it wouldn’t make a difference. And again, I know what I just said about him blowing himself up, that’s a crazy. extreme example, and I’m not saying that’s what we’re up against here. But for every post or comment or interaction that I’ve seen by someone that I know where I’ve thought, “Whew, that’s weird,” I want to challenge myself to comment back, just a quick comment back. “This is inconsistent with what I’ve seen.” Or hey, I’ve been talking about this with somebody else that maybe we mutually know, and that’s not how I heard this same information. You know, and just trying to open it up. What I was saying earlier about it not necessarily being facts based and being morals and values based is that no matter how many facts you come at a lot of those people with, that’s not what’s going to change it. So what is going to change it? I don’t know. I think we’re all trying to figure that out collectively right now.

Joy: That’s what I’m having a hard time with right now. We’re stuck in our feelings, we’re not looking at facts. Everyone’s just so stuck in those feelings that we’re not just looking at the facts. And then of course when facts are questioned, especially when you have a leader that makes facts look like they’re not facts, there’s just a snowball effect. I have what I would consider a good friend actually from my hometown just spewing horrible things on Facebook that I had to block her for 30 days. That’s the beautiful thing, snoozing people for 30 days. And she wrote me, and she was like, because she saw my posts, and I will passive aggressively post things sometimes just to be like I hope they see this. It will not change a thing, but that’s just me as a human. And she wrote to one of my posts one time. I think this was around the election. And she was like, “You know, I wasn’t sure about Trump for a long time. I wondered why everyone didn’t like him, so I started doing my own research.” The things that she was spewing was verbatim conspiracy stuff.

Claire: Right. And that’s the thing. There it is. There’s that line, “doing my own research.”

Joy: I said, “Oh, how many sources have you searched. You should get a variety of sources.” And she didn’t respond. She says, “I encourage you to do your research.” I said, “I do on a daily basis from multiple different sources. Where do you do yours from?” And she never responded, and it was just like [exasperated sigh].

Claire: Right. But I think that’s a great example of we wait to make a move until we think we know it’s going to work. And we need to stop doing that because that has resulted in this situation we’re in now where a lot of people are going very unchecked in both directions.

Joy: You mean left and right?

Claire: Left and right. But what we’re really seeing now on the right are just going unchecked. Who knows at one point if it ever would have made a difference. I know for me, there are things that I have strongly believed in my life that then over time as I started to see other people who I respect who are opposing things that were like maybe this isn’t quite right. I think a good example would be a home birth. And that’s not political, but talk about emotions over facts, right? That I think is a scenario where over time I started to be more open to it and started being more interested in it and eventually going on that path and having a really good experience. Another example would be the vaccine. I was thinking I don’t want to get this thing. Even Brandon was like, “I don’t know if I’m going to get this in the first year that it’s out. I’m not high risk. I’m worried about the timeline.” As soon as we started opening our, you know, kind of like, okay well I’m going to start listening to what other people are saying about this. That was when my mind was changed. No body reached out to me said, “Hey” – no, that’s not true, somebody did reach out to me. I posted something on Instagram stories and was like, “I get it. It’s scary. The vaccine was created in a record amount of time. That seems ridiculous to me. I don’t know how I feel about that.” And somebody reached out to me and was like, “Hey, I saw that you were worried about this. Here’s some information about it.” I was like, oh, you know.

Joy: That’s a great way to respond too. Oh I saw you posted about this, here’s some more information.

Claire: Right, okay.

Joy: Thank you.

Claire: You know guys, I don’t know what the answer is, but I want us to stop. And this is something we have said on the podcast a hundred times. “Nothing can be accomplished on social media.” Maybe something can. I just feel like it’s time to start trying.

Joy: It’s time to start trying. It’s time to start trying, and I just want to give a plug for – not that she needs a plug, but I’m just going to mention a podcast episode that I thought was really, really important for this time. It’s very timely. It’s Brené Brown’s Unlocking Us. If you haven’t heard it, just go listed to this episode. It’s the episode from January 13th. The title is “Brené On Words, Actions, Humanization, and Accountability.” And it’s really just her speaking her mind, but I encourage everybody to listen to it. Brené Brown is an expert. She’s a Doctor of Social Work, has done a ton of research, over 20 years of research on behavior really. Something I just wanted to point out was what she talks about of shame over accountability. And something that really resonated with me is when she said it’s so, so easy to go to shame when all of this is going on. She spoke specifically about what happened at the Capitol and how it’s so easy, and she’s like, hey if it worked, I would do it every day. She’s like, I’m just being honest with you. I would shame people until I’m blue in the face because there’s a part of me that’s just, “Oh, I got you.” But she’s like, it doesn’t work. For instance, being like how dare you, you white supremacist, blah blah blah. I mean, of course there’s white supremacists, that’s a bad thing. But even saying to someone like that guy that posted on my Facebook.

Claire: Right, even to be like, wow you sound like a white supremacist right now. It’s not going to do anything.

Joy: That’s not going to do anything. The shame is not going to do anything. So if I knew it worked, I would do it, but shame never works so we have to be holding people to account. She talks all about that. I really encourage everybody to listen to it. It’s only a half-hour episode, it’s great. And it just gave my mind a reframe because my go-to with all this – in my professional life when I’m talking to people in my therapy hat world, it’s so easy for me to preach what we should do. But when I am in my life and just reacting to this stuff, I’m so angry and I’m so mad that shit like this still goes on. I’m just angry. That’s not going to do anything. It was really good to be like, alright, so how do we start holding people accountable for their actions? And I love what you’ve said Claire over the years of just being like, you don’t get to do things and just not suffer the consequences. You don’t get to just say crap and then you don’t deal with the consequences, like everything that Trump has done.  Or people who –

Claire: Anything.

Joy: Anything, yeah. Do whatever you want, but consequences are consequences.

Claire: Yeah, you have freedom of speech, you have freedom to choose, you have freedom to do all these things. But you’re not free from the consequences of those choices that you make.

Joy: Exactly.

Claire: And the one other thing I just want to end this part of the conversation with is that no one out there has all the answers, and so don’t feel like you can’t enter the conversation because you don’t know enough. And then I also think that we as a society need to remind ourselves what research actually means. 

Joy: Yes, what is research?

Claire: “Oh Brené, has done 20 years of research.” If somebody tells you, “I have been doing my own research,” and that process has taken them less than several years – I mean, I’m not saying don’t go out there and look at different sources of information, but that’s not what research is.

Joy: No, it’s reading articles. So yeah, that’s a good point.

Claire: It’s having a hypothesis and consuming a body of work and also doing your own independent data gathering through experiments or interviews or through primary sources.

Joy: Interpreting data.

Claire: Interpreting data to either prove or disprove your hypothesis. It’s not reading a couple of articles on Fox News because you’re liberal and think I just need to hear the other opinion and now this validates what I believed, or any combination of those things. So I want to also stop using that term. “Oh, just do your own research.” Because that makes the process of gathering conclusions that have already been made from a variety of sources sound a lot more important than it really is. And again, I’m not saying don’t go out and gather different conclusions and then assimilate them and make your decisions based on those things. But understand that that’s not what research is.

Joy: And I would ask for more critical thinking. I think that it’s a lost art.

Claire: It is. So moving on a little bit. Moving right along. So another pretty big topic we’re going to talk about this week is commenting on other people’s bodies. So last week, Joy posted something on Instagram about how she was like, I really take for granted – and I don’t know why I’m the one telling this. You’re the one who wrote it. – But I really take for granted all the years I spent putting my body through so much diet culture B.S. and now having to heal and figure out this autoimmune disease is really pulling that to the forefront for you. Is that kind of the gist?

Joy: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I was at the gym, and I was like, man just don’t take your health for granted. I wanted to put a personal experience out there. And it really was tied to some guilt I felt about, God, I just put so much stress on my body about diet culture when this whole time maybe that was stressing my body and causing this. You know, you can go down that rabbit hole, but it just really felt like, hey people, stop stressing out over your bodies. Be grateful for your health. Be grateful for what your body can do today.

Claire: Right. And we are so critical of little thing. And in response to that, a good amount of people left comments or wrote messages to us like, “Joy, you look great.” And I don’t know if you’re comfortable with sharing this number, but you’ve lost a lot of weight since you unknowingly started developing this. How much weight have you lost?

Joy: About 20 pounds.

Claire: Which is a big percentage for you. And that’s also why I didn’t want to necessarily put a pound number on it. But a large percentage of your body.

Joy: For my body weight, for sure.

Claire: And you’re somebody, you’re tall, you’re lean. Just genetically you’ll always be tall obviously and lean. But your muscles really have changed.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: And the shape of your body has changed. Even when you post the pictures of yourself in the gym, it’s obvious that your muscles have really changed and you’ve lost a lot of weight. As I was reading those, I know this is coming from such a positive place but I just can’t help but feel like it was just landing just left of center. And so I’ve said something about it on Instagram stories the next day. I in no way want to call anybody out for saying that because I know –

Joy: Which you did a good job of that. 

Claire: Nobody says, “You look great” sarcastically. Everyone was coming there to say, “Joy, I know you feel like shit but you look great.” And in our society that has become an acceptable thing to say to someone. You might feel like shit, but hey you’re losing weight, that’s a plus. You may be going through chemo, but hey you lost those 10 pounds.

Joy: Or people who, I’m not even kidding, and I know again there has to be some laughter in this. There have been people who have been like, “Oh, I wish I had that.”

Claire: That’s the thing.

Joy: Not like people in my life have joked about that. How do you respond to that?

Claire: Right. There of course is always, you know, it varies person to person. But I think what it really just brought up for me was the reminder that there’s just no reason to comment on people’s bodies unless you specifically are being asked. I can think of few and far between scenarios in my life when I’ve asked anyone, hey, how do you feel about my body right now.

Joy: I don’t think I’ve ever. Maybe I’ve asked Scott, does this dress look okay. But I also think the intention like you said was positive of wanting to encourage me. But also, saying you look great shouldn’t be a compliment of how your body looks. You know what I mean?

Claire: So then I posted a series of Instagram stories, basically saying I noticed this and I just want to remind everybody that Joy is certifiably unhealthy right now.

Joy: Yeah, I’m not healthy right now. No, I don’t want to look like this.

Claire: All of your bloodwork is in unhealthy ranges. You’re by the books unhealthy. And as much as we say to people, oh it’s just about being healthy, then you can’t flip the coin and say, well you look great.

Joy: And even someone commented something very important that looking great isn’t thin. This shouldn’t be thin is the “look great.” The whole defining what “look great” means is fucked up.

Claire: So there were really two responses that I had. The first one was, sort of my knee jerk reaction before I wrote anything was how far do we think we had come only to then be so quickly congratulated on skinniness. And then number two, the big one, we just don’t need to be commenting on people’s bodies for so many reasons. The big one is, we just have better things to say. There’s better ways to encourage someone. There’s better ways to congratulate someone. There’s better ways to ask how someone’s doing. And even if I were to see somebody and notice, hey you’ve gained a lot of weight or you’ve lost a lot of weight. Instead of going up to them and being like, “Wow, you’ve gained a lot of weight. Is everything okay?” I might just say, “Hey, is everything okay?” Why even make it about their body.

Joy: Why even make it about their body, yeah.

Claire: So we had a lot of great comments as well, hey Joy you look great, thank you so much for this message, thanks so much for putting yourself – hey Joy, you’re doing great. I’m so proud of you for continuing to put in the work. I know this must be hard. You’re showing up. That’s awesome. It’s so inspiring to see you  continuing to go to the gym and continuing to try and do that for your mental health. We got so many great comments. And then we also got so many responses once I had posted those stories with these heartbreaking stories of going through different things in their lives where they either lost or gained weight.

Joy: Of people really praising thinness, which made me really upset.

Claire: Yeah. Somebody was like, my mom had terminal cancer and so many people were just like, “wow, you look great,” and it was just heartbreaking because she was dying. People were like, yeah, I have ulcerative colitis or I have gastroparesis and I literally can’t eat more than 100 calories a day because I don’t I’m “bigger” I don’t “look malnourished. And people are congratulating me on losing weight, and in the meantime,  I’m looking at having a feeding tube because my body can’t digest food anymore. All of these things. And even if it’s not to that degree, I was thinking about this more. I feel like I’m just on this huge soap box right now of this whole episode, so whatever, just run with it. Thinking about this more after we had gotten all those stories that really validated, just don’t comment on people’s bodies. But if your body goes through a change, you also don’t have to have a diagnosis to justify that. It can just go through a change because you discovered a brownie recipe that you really liked and you eat a bunch of times in a row. Or whatever the case may be. You got COVID and now you can’t taste anything anymore, so you’re not interested in food and you lost weight. Or literally anything. Or you could be trying to lose weight and you lost weight, still fine.

Joy: Let’s just start asking people, “How are you doing?”

Claire: “How are you doing? What’s something you’re working on right now?” And if that person brings up and it’s like, “Well thanks for asking, I’ve lost 25 pounds from CrossFit. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it.” Let them bring it up. We’ve talked about this in relation to post pardon where people always want to say, “Oh, your body created two babies. Isn’t it amazing? Just honor it for doing that.” I don’t want to have to honor it for anything except just holding my organs inside me. Thank you, body, for just holding my organs in place. There is no prerequisite to justifying weight loss or weight gain or the weight that you are the weight that you’ve always been. We all need that reminder.

Joy: And maybe question if your first instinct is to look at someone’s body and think about their body or think about commenting on their body, why you’re doing that. It could be something different that you’re noticing about that person instead of their looks.

Claire: And also guys, I think the other thing is to know is that this still happens to a lot of us as a knee-jerk reaction when we look at someone. You might see someone on Instagram stories and think, “Wow, they are really skinny.” We have all been living inside this diet culture world for so long that that might never go away. You can just kind of –

Joy: Take a pause.

Claire: Think that thought, and, wow –

Joy: That’s diet culture talking.

Claire: That’s diet culture talking. What an uninteresting thing to notice about someone.

Joy: Yeah, for sure. We’ve been really, really brainwashed through that, and I think that’s a very true statement Claire. When I posted that and when the comments came in around it, I wanted to just be like you have no idea what I would give to be able to run right now. You have no idea what I would give to be able to Fran right now. As much as that sucks, I would give anything to be like, “I’m going to go lift a barbell above my head.” I just got another result back that I really cannot do any exercise that gets my heart rate up other than walking. And not power walking – walking. Light weights. Can’t do anything that gets my heart rate up. I have to do some reps, rest. Light yoga, not power yoga. I’m on pretty strict orders. That is my health right now, and it’s because of an autoimmune disease and it’s making me very weak. I really want to have muscular arms again. And that may not happen, who knows. I’m just taking it day by day. Really just think that people and their bodies, remember health is not a number. It’s not a shape. 

Claire: And I think that one last thing about that is when you unknowingly comment on someone’s body if their going through something, that can stick with them forever and does stick with them forever. We also heard people telling us, yeah, I’ve had disordered eating or even eating disorders for a long time, and it started when I got really sick and lost a lot of weight and people commented to me so much that when I stopped being sick I was afraid to go back to eating. It was like when you were doing macros. You lost your period, but you were getting so much positive feedback that even now, years later, it still messes with your mind when your pants that you wore during your macro phase don’t fit.

Joy: Oh yeah. I remember texting you. Such a mind fuck.

Claire: That’s just another of seemingly endless reasons to just don’t go there. Again, then you may be basically telling somebody, “Your body looks the best when it’s sick.” And that’s a shitty thing to hear.

Joy: Yeah, for sure.

Claire: I know if you’re listening to this and you’re like, “Oh my God, Claire. You’re calling me out.” I know that everyone that wrote those comments were doing it from a place – and I say that completely unironically and not passive aggressively, and this is just an opportunity for us to think about it and be reminded not to do that.

Joy: Yes. Can we play a transition song?

Claire: Can we? I don’t know.

Joy: Okay, so this is Ty’s song. I forgot to play Ty’s song last week and the reason that I didn’t was because –

Claire: We didn’t have a file, right?

Joy: Yeah, she doesn’t have a file. It’s only on Spotify. So she’s the one that sang the song “Don’t Shoot Me Santa.” It’s so cute. So here, I’m going to play a little bit.

[playing “Don’t Shoot Me Santa”]

Joy: Isn’t that cool?

Claire: That’s so cute. Not cute, that’s beautiful.

Joy: It’s beautiful. I love it. She rocks. So I messaged her right before we were going to publish last week’s episode, and I was like “Do you have a file? I can’t play the song unless I have a file.” So Ty, you’re a badass. What was our next topic?

Claire: On Instagram last week. So the question last week was about superstitions. We didn’t get very many replies, so maybe let’s save those for next week so that we can talk about things that everyone called “the farts” when they were growing up.

Joy: Oh my God, let’s do it.

Claire: So we’ll save your voicemails  about superstitions from last week.

Joy: If you have some, you can still submit them.

Claire: Still submit them. Last week, I was starting to think that – we had a question several weeks ago of, what was something that happened in your house growing up that you didn’t realize was super weird until you left, and we got so many funny questions. And then I was thinking about – I can’t remember, something funny that one of the kids said. It must have been Miles because Evie can’t talk. 

Joy: [laughing] “One of my kids said” – the child that can talk.

Claire: The child that can talk. It made me start thinking that when I was growing up, we called farting “shooting a bunny.” And I was like, where the hell did that come from? If you farted, it was like, “Oh, you shot a bunny.” And I’m sure that people who heard it were like, “Oh my God, what?” But just got me thinking, what sayings did you say in your home that you didn’t realize until later on. Most of them, guys, were about what we call farts, which really was more than I was hoping for.

Joy: So good.

Claire: I would like to read some of these to you because they are very funny. This one says they called farting telling a bottom secret. Stepping on ducks. Air poop. Leaving a present. Was passing gas. Floating an air biscuit.

Joy: Oh, I heard a comedian once call it food ghosts.

Claire: Oh wow, that’s amazing. Let’s see.

Joy: Fart jokes and farts will never get old, will never be not funny.

Claire: Never. 

Joy: One time, Scott and I were sitting there, JT was sitting on the floor. He was sitting straight up and his butt was on the hardwood floor, and JT farted, like audibly farted. I’ve never heard a dog audibly fart. JT does not audibly fart. And it was so funny, we just started laughing so hard. We were like, “Was that JT?”

Claire: It’s never not funny. Even Evie when she farts, she goes, “Toot!” Let’s see here. Mr. Poo Poo knocking at the door. Ripped a turtle. These are all just fart things, there are so many other answers. Bumper was passing gas. 

Joy: Someone else said they said shoot a bunny.

Claire: This is a mind-blowing experience for me because multiple people were like, yeah, we shot bunnies too. This makes it worse. I was willing to accept that it was just some completely nonsensical thing that my family made up, but to know that it was not just us. It’s out there. Now I’m like, where did this come from?

Joy: Oh my God, that’s really funny.

Claire: So funny.

Joy: I love that we just ended this podcast talking about farts.

Claire: This one says, “We called farts hiney burps.” Hoofer because part was a bad word. Let’s see here. Barking spiders. 

Joy: Oh, I loved barking spiders.

Claire: Someone said stepped on a barking toad. 

Joy: That’s a classic one.

Claire: Also we called farts ducks. Example: “Did you just duck?”

Joy: Oh my gosh.

Claire: “Release the hippogater whenever my dad would pass gas.” At lot of you had specific names just for your dad farting, which I think is legit. So Brandon said – if he ever found out that I talked about this on the podcast, he would die of embarrassment – but he does that thing that some people do when if they’re walking and they have to fart, they lift of their hip. You know what I’m talking about? Sort of cock their hip a little bit. So now we refer to that as the “Jim Cook salute.” Okay, so there were a couple other ones non-fart-related. “We always said, ‘Lord love a duck’ when we were upset.”

Joy: I love when people said “cheese and rice” when they’re mad.

Claire: Yes. Or “shut the front door.”

Joy: “Shut the front door was my favorite.”

Claire: “Berser wersers” for “it’s cold.” That one sounds totally made up, but I love it. “My family uses the word “dingle fluts” instead of penis. Okay. A couple people said “skinning a cat” for getting undressed. This person says, “Calling overlays eggs ‘dippy.’ Ordering dippy eggs at Waffle House was eye opening.” That’s the other thing about, I would love to hear the backup story of like, the first time I said this in public and everyone just stared at me and I realized that most people didn’t call it “shooting a bunny.” 

Joy: Oh, that’s so funny.

Claire: So thank you guys for playing along with these because they were hilarious. So funny. And also, I really appreciated that there was a major theme in here of people who it was only their dads who said these weird things. Just so funny.

Joy: I love it. That’s such a dad thing.

Claire: My dad wants to mung bean, which meant to calm down. Okay, sure. This one says, “In response to ‘so,’ my dad would say, ‘sew buttons on your underwear and call it a dress.’”

Joy: I love that one, I love that one! I love that dad. Sew buttons on your underwear and call it a dress. Okay, can I end with my new favorite reality show?

Claire: Yes, please.

Joy: If you need a new reality fix, Bling Empire is your show. It is the reality show version of Crazy Rich Asians, and it’s fantastic. Now, these people have way more money than I think any reality show rich people I’ve ever seen. Unbelievable amounts of money. The characters are amazing. It’s just the right amount of trash reality, shots of California and Los Angeles and Beverly Hills. I’m in love. If you need a good brain break, do it. It’s the best. And then DM me about it because I want to talk to someone about this show because I love it so much.

Claire: And I thought it was great, people were like, have you seen all these other shows. And it’s like, yes, Joy has seen all the shows. 

Joy: If it has reality show – I haven’t watched – there’s one, oh, I can’t remember the name of it, but there’s one reality wives show that I haven’t watched yet, but I got into the Bling Empire first and was like first episode I’m hooked. I really can’t wait for Selling Sunset to come back. I love that show so much.

Claire: Alright, guys, thank you for hanging in there with us during a lot of soap boxing, and I feel like we ended on a high note. So we’re not going to do a question for next week since we’re going to play some of your superstition ones next week potentially. Go ahead and send us any more if you have them.

Joy: Or just a hello. What’s up? What is up? What are you doing? What’s going on today?

Claire: Just, how are you?

Joy: How are you?

Claire: You know what I would actually love. If someone has had a successful conversation with someone who you are not incredibly close with necessarily who was going down the conspiracy theory lane, let us know about it. I would be interested to hear how it went. That’s the end of that sentence. Alright guys. So don’t forget, you can find us on Instagram @joyandclaire_. You can always stream all of our content from You can always email us at We’re on Facebook sometimes I guess. We’re Joy and Claire. We don’t really Facebook anymore. 

Joy: Yeah, we don’t.

Claire: Does anyone?

Joy: Does anyone Facebook anymore? We are transcribing our episodes now so you can see transcriptions of our episodes probably soon.

Claire: Yeah, on They’re going to come out probably about a week after the episode itself, or a week to two weeks after the episode itself, so unfortunately it won’t be released the same exact day. And that’s because we – sorry if you can hear Evie yelling in the background. 

Joy: That’s okay. I thought it was my cat.

Claire: No.

Joy: I was like, is that Lua?

Claire: It sounds like a cat. And now she’s knocking. She can’t open the door to this room, haha. She really wants to get in though. Just because of the timeline. We only record a couple days before we release, so there’s just not time to get that all transcribed.

Joy: Right.

Claire: But we are excited to have that so you can search for things more easily and scroll through if you don’t want to listen to the whole episode. So coming soon for many of our recent episodes and coming later for some of our older episodes.

Joy and Claire: Alright guys.

Claire: Have a great week. 

Joy and Claire: Bye.

January 6th was a horrible day, we process the many feelings. Listener voice memos about your 15min of fame!


instagram: joyandclaire_

Joy: Hey guys. This is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: This is Joy and Claire. How’re we doing? Everybody? Everybody out there. Hello.

Claire: It’s been a big week.

Joy: It’s Thursday, it’s been a big week. 

Claire: Again, always. So many big weeks.

Joy and Claire: You know –

Claire: Both of us. 

Joy: I mean, it’s not funny. But people, after our episode last Thursday aired – we recorded it on the 4th of course. January 6th happened. And when we recorded it, I was like, “So far nothing’s happened in 2021” and everyone was like, yeah, that made me laugh. In an ironic, sad way, not laughing because of what happened.

Claire: I know. I think that, even now, what’s going to happen between now and when this episode comes out?

Joy: Yeah, I’m never going to jinx myself like that again.

Claire: No. Sorry guys, that was on us. 

Joy: Yep. Totally our fault. But you know, the other thing I think about is, what do people – and this is maybe opening a can of worms right off the bat – but what do people from other countries think of? What are they thinking of when they’re looking at everything that’s going on?

Claire: It’s not good, I’ll tell you that much. We’ve actually had some people send us some stuff about Canada and like… yeah, Jessie Govens who we also talk about, who is our token listener from Dubai who we love. She was posting some stuff about how listening to the news felt like being in the opening scene of a post-apocalyptic teen movie. Yeah, it’s bizarre. I saw this tweet that was like, “Really tired of living through another historical event every six minutes.”

Joy: Yeah. 

Claire: Tired of it. And this is one of those things, and again something that everyone has now seen, where it’s like this was only a surprise if you haven’t been paying attention. But at the same time, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t jarring. 

Joy: Yeah, you’re allowed to be jarred. It’s a very jarring thing to see.

Claire: Yes. Not just because, I mean, I definitely wasn’t, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this is happening.” I was like, “Yeah, I can believe this is happening.”

Joy: Absolutely believe it’s happening.

Claire: I feel horrified by what I’m watching, but not shocked. And I think we typically tend to associate those two. “I was shocked and aghast.” I was not shocked, but I was aghast. So it will be interesting to see. You guys are listening to this like in a time machine from Monday, January 11th. What’s going to happen? Will Trump be impeached between now and then, who knows?

Joy: Right, right. Who knows? But I have learned almost every time something like this happens how toxic I see social media being. And you and I kind of texted a little bit about this. I was thinking a lot this weekend. I was just like, where does this come from, kind of going the route of where did this wheel spin out of control. There’s many answers to that, I’m sure. But one of the things I think about is when you give someone or people a place to gather and be angry together, that’s pretty dang powerful. And in a space where it’s so easily accessible, I feel like social media has played such a part in all of this negativity that has gone to such extreme. And again, this is not a shock or surprise that any of this has happened, but I just feel like especially with this presidency who has used social media in such a dangerous way, I feel like a lot of people really glogged onto that. And people who maybe just were angry in the first place. I feel like there’s a part of it of fearful – and this is just me speaking of what I’ve seen in human behavior – people who are fearful and vulnerable tend to lash out this way. And when they find a group… it’s very similar to cult behavior. It’s very similar to that. 

Claire: I think when we’ve gone to the extreme situation that it’s at that’s very true. I’ve been reading that from mental health experts. And again, I don’t ever want to make my own – I’m not a mental health expert. Joy is actually literally a mental health expert. I don’t know if you consider yourself to be an expert, but a mental health professional.

Joy: And expert on what, that’s what I’m asking.

Claire: I know. But I just mean on these types of group behaviors and group behavior systems. But I’ve been reading a lot of things written by people who are like I am an expert on cult behavior and that’s what we’re witnessing.

Joy: Yep.

Claire: And I’m an expert on authoritarian regimes and we’re seeing a lot of components of that here as well. I reposted something on our Instagram today, an interview from The Daily Show, which was really, really well done and I thought really well spoken. And you kind of think of the daily show, you think of satire. But it really has moved away from that. It really hadn’t moved away from that a long time ago, and they still do those things of course. But I’m trying to find the name of the guy –

Joy: It was Timothy Snider. It was really good.

Claire: Yeah, really good. And he is –

Joy: Do you want me to play it?

Claire: No, that’s okay. You guys can go back if you want to find it, and we’ll post it in our show notes. He is an author who really specializes in authoritarian regimes and was speaking about if you want to just take out the heart of democracy, then you do that by making it feel like facts aren’t real. That really is what we’re seeing. And I think that’s why, for people who have not gone to that, whether you’re a liberal or conservative or anywhere in between, we’re seeing a huge, I don’t know if I want to call it a flare up, of extremist thinking. And if you’re someone who has gone over to that side of extremist thinking –

Joy: Call your dad.

Claire: Call your dad, you’re in a cult. And that’s what I think is so hard for, honestly I hope for the majority of people, to really wrap their heads around. How do you get to that point? It’s because you think that facts aren’t real. The thing that I keep coming back to, and this is just me. Maybe this is ignorance is bliss. I don’t really think that it is. Is that the government can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. You guys really think that they’re coordinating all this? I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to deal with federal government. They’re really not –

Joy: Like my brother’s in the military. He’s done some pretty secret operations. I’m pretty sure he’d be like, “Joy, we’re in trouble. Be careful.” He has a high rank in the military. I’m pretty sure guys there’s not a secret behind the wall. Beyoncé is not a part of the Slytherin people or whatever.

Claire: Yeah, there’s no catacombs below the Denver International Airport. Whatever the case may be, I just think that there comes a point where we’ve all sort of brushed this off being like, “Oh, those guys are wackos.” But now it’s like, okay, but now those wackos have really caused a huge rift in our society. And I’ve seen a ton of people who voted for Trump really come, I don’t want to say come around because I don’t want to say that they were wrong –

Joy: It’s not a taking sides type of thing.

Claire: I mean, we picked a side. You know the side we picked. But of them saying this is not – and maybe those are people who are shocked. Who maybe hadn’t been paying attention in that way and now are like I can no longer ignore or cover up or say that it’s not –

Joy: People are so sick of defending Trump, and they’re like, “I’m so tired of this.”

Claire: Even other – a ton of other republican lawmakers are like, “This has gotten out of hand.” And a lot of the people in the rest of the world are like, “This has been out of hand.” This was an inevitable conclusion and an inevitable way for this to go. And it’s just so hard to look at that and understand, for somebody with a logical brain, what somebody is thinking when they do storm the freaking American Capitol. This is the type of thing, it just defies logic. We talked about this talking about the Black Lives Matter movement and about people who are Trump voters. I can’t try to go there with my logical brain because however my logical brain is wired is so wildly different.

Joy: I guess you could flip it on its head and say, whoever they are, think the same about –

Claire: Oh 1000%, they think I’m –

Joy: The extreme left, you know, we’ve said that a million times. 

Claire: The leftists.

Joy: The leftists. We’re going to be a socialist society.

Claire: Which honestly the idea that anything that’s not – I’ve seen this type of commentary, and I who tend to veer very, very far left very much agree with the fact that there is no true left in America. There’s center right and there’s far right. And you can see that in the Capitol. Capitalists make up of every single thing that’s done by the government. And I wrote something about this on my personal Instagram a couple of weeks ago where I basically posted, you can’t call yourself a social liberal and a financial conservative. Those two things are at odds. You can’t be a social liberal while being a financial conservative because you can’t want programs to help people but then be unwilling to pay for them. So many people were like, that’s not true. I’m not against being a social liberal. The definition is that you are not anti these, like abortion, you’re not anti-social security, you’re not anti-Medicaid. But in my mind, if you’re not pro something, you might as well be anti it. So maybe my then response to those people was, maybe I would challenge your definition of a social liberal. You might be a social moderate where you’re not against those things, but unless you’re for them, unless you’re putting your money where your mouth is, unless you’re willing to do that, you’re not socially liberal. If you look at our government and you look at the way that decisions are made, it’s center and right. There’s very, very little that’s truly left.

Joy: Very little, very little. Which again, it goes back to the taglines and the words that are thrown around. And here’s the thing that I was thinking about too ever since January 6th. Not every republican thinks this way.

Claire: Right. And I have to challenge myself on that, I really do. Because the people in my life in particular, a handful, maybe two or three people off the top of my head, who are really extreme. Those are the ones I hear about. Here is somebody posting a picture at church at mass not social distancing, “This is going to piss off the leftist maskers.”

Joy: Okay.

Claire: Okay. That stuff is just like, you’re literally just asking for a fight. Literally that’s what you’re doing. You’re literally just saying, I’m doing this –

Joy: It’s so provocative. 

Claire: Your exact caption of it is, this is a verbatim post from that person. 

Joy: Oh is it?

Claire: Yes, it is. This is the true real-life example. Your caption is, “I’m trying to start a fight.” And unfortunately –

Joy: Just curious. Just curious.

Claire: Just curious. Pro tip. Somebody comes to your comments section and says, “I’m just curious,” they’re never just curious. 

Joy: They’re never just curious. They’re there to pick a fight. 

Claire: That could be the episode title.

Joy: It’s not funny because it makes me rage.

Claire: It’s not funny also because I think that those types of people are who we think about when we think about republicans, and I don’t want that to be what I think about. This week, we’ve heard a ton of people who are like stop calling for unity. I’m not saying that unity should not be the goal, but there’s no unity without equality, and we are a long ass way from equality. And I really think though that those – I have to challenge myself that – I have come up against several very confrontational conservatives in my life who – and I’ve also come up against a lot of other conservatives who disagreed with my social liberal conservative whatever post. Socially liberable – I can’t even say it. You guys know what I’m talking about. I’m not trying to gloss over it, my brain just can’t form that phrase again. But when I think of conservatives, I think of the people in my life who are very confrontational, and that’s not the place I need and want to go.

Joy: People who truly want to understand or are open to having a conversation. And that’s why I will say it until I’m blue in the face. Social media is not the place to have a conversation about politics. It’s just not. We can all say that, but my goal for this year is to just not post or reply to things that are triggering. By “triggering” for myself, I just mean getting me angry and hyped up because no point is going to be proven. The people who are trying to stir you up, like “just curious” or being provocative that way or truly not in it to understand. They’re there to just be a jerk. Plain and simple. They’re not truly there to understand. They’re there to be angry and mean. There’s just no way you can turn that into a productive conversation whatsoever. 

Claire: I wouldn’t necessarily say – I think I’ve had productive conversations on social media, but they’ve been in DM with somebody that I had to very consciously say, okay I’m going to take the time to really engage with this person. We talked about this months ago that the problem with social media is you might not always be in a place where you can, like you might be driving. And then all of the sudden you get hit with this four-paragraph long DM with, “I can’t believe you post this.” And it’s like, okay, I don’t have the headspace to reply to this right now. I got to make an appointment with myself to reply to this. I know a girl who I very briefly went to college with who is more leaning towards libertarian where I would consider myself leaning more toward socialist if we had to delineate. And we had a conversation the other day about vaccines. She was saying everyone should be able to make their own personal choice about vaccines. I was saying I don’t really agree with that. I think there are extenuating circumstances. Most people should view vaccine decision making as a public decision. This is a public health goal, not a personal health goal. And we went back and forth on it, and at the end it was like listen I’m not going to convince you, you’re not going to convince me, thank you for giving me some space to tell you my opinion, I hope you feel I’ve done the same for you. And that’s kind of where we left it. But I know that person personally. I don’t communicate with her any other way than really Instagram. But that was I think a very small handful of conversations I’ve had, and it’s because we both came to it really from a place of, first of all there’s not really human rights here at stake. You’re not trying to convince me that white supremacy doesn’t exist. Vaccines are one of those things where we can have our strong opinions and yes, I’m not saying that oppression isn’t involved with vaccine distribution, with public health, there isn’t racism inherent within the public health system. But in this conversation human rights are not really what’s up for debate. That’s the other thing. When you get down to it, it’s like I’m not going to debate with you about issues that deal with human rights, particularly given the fact that 99% of the time those rights are not mine. I am not debating my own human rights. I’m not going to speak for a group that I’m not a part of when it comes to going tit for tat about what’s right and what’s wrong. I’m going to tell you what I believe. I’m going to stand up for what I believe in. But I’m not going to sit there and debate with you about whether or not this is a valid argument. And it’s so hard to communicate any of that on freaking social media.

Joy: Yeah, it’s really hard. So I want to finish my thought too with the republicans, back to the republican piece. The mob and the rioters do not represent every republican. I’m sure that there are republicans out there that are like that’s ridiculous. Of course. And when I heard Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham, Mike Pence, Mitt Romney, what they said after the riots was really genuine and beautiful. And I’m not kidding, did you hear them? Why are you giving me that look?

Claire: Mitch McConnell said something genuine and beautiful?

Joy: Yes!

Claire: I did see the Mitt Romney thing. Which who would have thunk ten years ago that Mitt Romney, we’d all be like, “Yay, Mitt Romney.”

Joy: Yes. Mitch McConnell, again I don’t agree with everything that they do. I don’t agree with a lot of the things that they do. But to have that response after that horrific event, that attack on our Capitol, and for them to just really be the voice in the response. All I could think of was, this is what we should be hearing form the republican party. And for four years, they haven’t been able to have that voice. And I bet you that there’s a lot of them that are so glad – in a way, of course they want their majority, but I’m sure there’s a lot of them that are so glad that they can finally speak up without feeling like they’re going to be kicked to the curb by some crazy leader in charge. So that’s the thing that I thought was really beautiful afterwards. I was like, that’s really cool. Mitt Romney said some things. Mike Pence had a great response. Just really calm about it. And freaking Trump threw him under the bus that day.

Claire: Trump’s the worst. It kind of comes back to that thing though about like unity doesn’t mean anything without equality. And if you’re calling for equality, you have to be calling for justice. And if you’re not calling for justice, then you can’t call for equality.

Joy: Right. But for us to see that right after something so disturbing was really important.

Claire: I agree with you. It’s not nothing.

Joy: It’s not nothing. And after that, a lot of people flipped to throw out the electoral college votes. A lot of people flipped. That was really, I’m sure that they were like, “This is enough.”

Claire: I mean, I have the opinion that it’s sort of too little too late. It’s better than nothing.

Joy: Oh of course, of course, of course.

Claire: But I also think it’s just one of those things where it’s like we’ve been given so little to hold onto of positive reinforcement that we’re like, “I’ll take it!”

Joy: 100%. I just want to hear something positive from the republican side, and I got that and I was like, wow, okay. I felt better for a mere moment. Of course everything that happened, the people that were killed, it’s devastating. We don’t need to drone on about that. It’s terrible, it’s horrible. And I think that things that kind of stuck out for me… I have this, I don’t know, I think I’ve told you, we’ve talked about this where I need a burner account so I can just let my feelings fly. But this was just where I’m like, you know what, the reason that I don’t post on my personal Facebook page is it’s not productive. I always go back and forth of whether or not that’s productive. But I was like, I just need to say something. So I wrote, because I know what there’s a lot of people – oh here’s the thing. This drove me nuts. So I posted something on my – I don’t think you saw this, Claire – on my Facebook page, and I said, “Do you get that Black Lives Matter was because of years of oppression and violence towards Black people? Today was hateful white supremacy on parade. There’s absolutely no comparison. And white people not seeing that is the problem with America. It is the reason we will not make progress and the reason why today happened.” If people start comparing Black Lives Matter to this, I will go on a rage spiral and I will not get out of it. I saw that flying around and the people who are just like, “Well what about the rioters and the loot -” and I’m just like you’ve got to be kidding me. You’re missing the point. And the reason why we have had no progress for years and years is because white people refuse to see that. They always want to be like, well, what about this, what about this. “I haven’t had opportunities in my life,” and it’s just like you’re missing the point.

Claire: It’s not about you.

Joy: It’s not about you. And so I got – I grew up in a Mormon town. Do I need to say that again? Very white, very Mormon. Apparently, someone that I’m friends with on Facebook, and I did not know I was friends with him –

Claire: [laughing] That’s always fun when you find out you’re friends with somebody who’s going to troll your accounts.

Joy: Because here’s what I find funny too. When people from high school come out to comment on my post. I’m like, I haven’t talked to you in 25 years. Why are you here? And then I unfriend them because I’m like, I don’t need to have you comment on my posts. I haven’t talked to you in 25 years. The people that I want to have a conversation with are the people that I would go out to lunch with. So this guy replies and he says a lot of really horrible things. And he says, “I was there, and we all had a great, friendly time. I am so sick of being labeled. You are all wrong about this racism crap.” Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So he goes on and on and one.

Claire: He was where?

Joy: He was at the Capitol. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire: And you’re like, that’s not… that doesn’t go in the pro category of the comment, sir.

Joy: No. And first of all, I’m kind of taken aback because I’m like who is this guy? I vaguely remember him from high school, and I’m going to say something so assholery right now. But if you have your profile picture as the American eagle, I am worried about you. Put a puppy up there, but that’s what it is. American eagle. Oh, this guy. So yeah. I just sat there for a minute, and I was like I will have a conversation with you if I feel like it’s going to be productive but you are just here to spread hate and evil. And I unfriended him. Judge me for doing that, but I don’t even remember having a conversation with you in high school. Why are you here?

Claire: Why are we even Facebook friends? And I think that you know that just goes back right to the beginning of our conversation. Why even go on social media? If you’re not, you know. First of all, so much of this even started on social media from Parlor or what have you, Twitter, you know, and giving that megaphone… even going back to we’ve all totally just accepted that this is how Trump was on Twitter. When if you think about it, granted Twitter hasn’t been around that long, but the first couple years of Trump’s presidency, we didn’t all just accept that he was going nuts on Twitter all the time. And now that we’ve all normalized that, you kind of forget that Obama on Twitter was run by a PR manager, a brand manager basically.

Joy: Very thoughtful things to say. Not all caps.

Claire: I just remember being so shocked by that when Trump took office where I was like, where is his PR manager? 

Joy: No one.

Claire: No, I know. But to me, I remember being shocked by that. And in the last four years, I’ve completely just abandoned that thought. But I came back to that this week where it’s like in some ways the presidency is a brand and he is an elected official who should be held to a certain degree of decorum, and we have all just let that go. Completely let it go. And completely normalized these crazy things on Twitter. And I think a lot of people are freaking out about him losing his Twitter account. And it’s like, okay, we all get it. It’s not illegal. It’s not a violation of free speech. Twitter’s a private company. They can do whatever they want. But that being said –

Joy: Scott and I just talked about this before we recorded. And Scott’s like, “Anyone who starts to say that it’s violating their freedoms, that’s so stupid.” 

Claire: Your right to a Twitter account is not guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. It’s just not.

Joy: It’s not in the Bill of Rights. Stop it.

Claire: If you take a bigger step back, it’s like okay, you can sort of tongue-and-cheek say Twitter’s not in the Bill of Rights. But this has been the platform that he has used and therefore banning him from it is really cutting him off from speaking to the public in the way that he has.

Joy: The cowardly way that he’s done it. Speak to people face to face. You can’t do it, dude.

Claire: But I’m actually coming from the other angle. This is the way that he has chosen to connect with people and now he’s being barred from doing it. And I’m not saying that it was the right thing to do, but like e-

Joy: I think it was.

Claire: No, no, no, no. I’m not saying that him using it that way was the right thing to do.

Joy: Oh.

Claire: What I’m saying is that –

Joy: Wait, go back.

Claire: Okay, I’m not saying that the way Trump used Twitter was the right way to be doing it. What I am saying was that was the precedent. Right, I think cutting him off was the right thing to do. The precedent that he had set, however, does now create this tension of really Twitter having the power to sort of de facto silence him. Which while it is not a violation of free speech, it is unusual and unprecedented that Twitter would have that type of power to effectively silence the American president.

Joy: Right, that’s so weird.

Claire: It’s so weird. It should never have come to this.

Joy: No. That should not be your megaphone. 

Claire: It should not be your megaphone. There’s no reason that a politician or anyone in power should be using social media in that way. And it really begs a lot of questions about social media and about these privately-owned companies. Or I don’t know if Twitter has technically gone public, but these corporations that ultimately kind of hold the key to these what should have been official communication pathways. And I think that’s where we’re in a gray area of this is an unprecedented move given the fact that technically, no, it’s not a violation. Technically, no, it’s not illegal. But it is really unprecedented in the sense that a private entity, being Twitter, had the ability to effectively, publicly silence the president because of the way that he was using Twitter.

Joy: I mean, a lot of people followed suit too. 

Claire: For sure, for sure.

Joy: A lot of people took Parlor off their platforms.

Claire: Parlor effectively got kicked off, I mean as we all know everything letters up to the cloud on Amazon, and Amazon told them you can’t host your stuff on us anymore. And there really aren’t, unless you’re going to be hosted on Bob’s basement, there’s not a lot of other places.

Joy: Who’s Bob?

Claire: You know what I mean. 

Joy: That guy.

Claire: Like that guy at the beginning of Armageddon. Do you remember that guy? He’s in his underwear in the top of his planetarium. So I’m thinking about that. Looking at it objectively, not from a was this a right or wrong call. But I think just more from a, wow, this is an interesting moment.

Joy: It’s an interesting moment for sure.

Claire: In the history of social media and of media and communications that we should see that Twitter was even being used in this way.

Joy: Yeah. It is something that we will probably never see again I hope. But I also think that he made some of the people who really liked him feel special. Because you know how Instagram gives us almost a very intimate look into some celebrities’ lives? 

Claire: Oh, for sure, I mean it was the perfect way.

Joy: He really used it in a way that made people feel like, “He’s talking to me.” 

Claire: That’s why social media is popular, period. Because you feel like for the first time, it’s like what do they it, the royal castle something intrigue? Something like that. Palace? Palace intrigue. Where you feel like you’re getting that look behind the curtain that is exclusive to you, even though you cognitively know a million other people are seeing this. If you’re seeing Beyoncé’s Instagram story, you’re feeling like, “Oh my God, Beyoncé.”

Joy: “She texted me.” Hey, hey.

Claire: “We have the same organizer on our bathroom counter.”

Joy: “She’s just like us.”

Claire: “She’s just like us.” But truly, that’s why social media has become what it is. And that’s why social media influencers exist. And that’s why we get people, even, you know, we’re only at 15,000 followers on Instagram. We still get people all the time who are like, “I feel like  know you.” And we love that. But we don’t know 15,000 people. 

Joy: For sure do not.

Claire: For sure do not. And that’s the thing. I know everyone who’s listening to this, you cognitively understand that, but there is that emotional reaction of I am seeing someone post something very personal and intimate and therefore that connection is felt, even if it’s one way.

Joy: That worked for him.

Claire: It works for a lot of people.

Joy: I think people really felt like he was giving me secret messages and I’m going to fulfill my duty as a patriot. I’m sure that felt really good to a lot of people. But guess what, try again.

Claire: I know. So alright guys. I feel like now that we’ve yelled about democracy for 30 minutes, we’re going to take a right turn. You know, we are not proponents for giving you a space to disconnect from important issues. But we’re also not proponents of rubbing your face to the grindstone unnecessarily. So we are going to take a massive right turn, abrupt even.

Joy: Everybody just shake it off, shake it off, shake off the whatever.

Claire: Shake it like a whatever.

Joy: I’ve been listening to so much Taylor Swift lately by the way, speaking of “Shake it Off.” Not to that. But her –

Claire: Miles loves “Shake it Off.”

Joy: “Shake it Off” is a great, great song.

Claire: It really is.

Joy: I love her two albums that she released this year.

Claire: So good.

Joy: Thank you, Taylor Swift. I know you’re listening.

Claire: I know. Taylor, my best friend from Instagram. One of my favorite tweets that I saw was, “I can’t get over the fact that we got more Taylor Swift studio albums than stimulus checks in 2020.”

Joy: [laughing] I know this is treading on some territory, but do you have any favorite memes from the week that really punched it home for you?

Claire: So many. [clearing throat] Let me clear my throat and just pull some up.

Joy: Let. Me. Clear. My. Throat.

Claire: Oh wow. My favorite one that I think is probably the most on brand for us is, “Trump: I will not be attending Biden’s inauguration. Trump on January 20, 2021” and it’s Damien in the back of the gym with his sunglasses on.

Joy: The guy who says, “She doesn’t even go here.” It’s that guy. it’s that Damien.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy: I love that one so much because it’s so true. He can’t not be included. He cannot not be included.

Claire: I love that one. So if you guys don’t know, I take my job as a meme curator very seriously on my personal Instagram account. Pretty much it’s all I post. I just retweeting retweets of retweets of retweets. Let’s see if I can find some good ones. “Imagine thinking humans have a right to Twitter but not to healthcare.” Some of my faves. “Man, how the f do you get banned from Snapchat? I used to use that app to sell cocaine and total peace.” 

Joy: [laughing]

Claire: That one was a favorite.

Joy: I like the one where Billy Eichner was like, “Pull him off Twitter? Don’t just pull him off Twitter. Make him join Bumble.” 

Claire: “Okay, doom scrolling is bad, but have you seen the quality of the doom this week?”

Joy: Really some quality doom.

Claire: Let’s see here. Oh, this one. For some reason, something about this just made me laugh so hard. “2016: Maybe it won’t be that bad. 2021: The Axe Body Spray Corporation stands firmly against the attempted overthrow of the US government.”

Joy: I laughed so hard.

Claire: There was something about it being Axe where I’m like oh my gosh, it’s so random.

Joy: Axe Body Spray stands against [laughing]

Claire: The attempted overthrow of the US government. Oh no. 

Joy: This is not a political one, but what was the one where you said, “A true friend-“

Claire: Oh, “true friendship is letting a certain amount of ghosting go unnoticed.”

Joy: I love it. There’s something that just makes me laugh so hard.

Claire: Oh, this one is my favorite. So it was a comment on Donald Trump’s tweet when he saw on Twitter it said, “To all those who have asked, I will not be going to the inauguration on January 20th.” And the comment was, “HUGE ‘a lot of you have been asking about my skincare routine lately’… energy.”  I thought that was hysterical.

Joy: What about the one where it was like John Barren or something, a fake Twitter account, where it’s like, “Hey guys, I’m new to Twitter. What’s up?” “Hey guys, I’m new to Twitter. What’s going on?” It’s so great. Okay, so for all the seriousness, truly truly there’s a lot of work to do. We still need to do the work. And we can also just take some laugh breaks and let off some steam.

Claire: Totally. Laugh breaks are important.

Joy: Laugh breaks are important. So the question for this week, we got so many good voice memos. The question was, tell us about your 15 minutes of fame. And we got so many good ones that I just wanted to go through lightning round style and play them all because they’re so freaking funny.

Claire: Do you have a 15 minutes of fame before we –

Joy: Yes, I do. I kind of attribute it when I was doing all the video work with the kids. I was on the news a couple times. And then winning the Emmy’s, we got interviewed a couple times. I feel like that was the closest I could get, and I really, really thought that was really cool. So for people who don’t know that, that was back at my old job. I did some work with some television stations to create some public service announcements, and then they ended up submitting them to the Emmy’s and we won a bunch of awards. I just loved going to the award shows. Like, that was my favorite part.

Claire: Totally. That’s so on brand.

Joy: Getting a dress and going to the award shows. Yeah, what about you?

Claire: Honestly the only thing that I could think of, I’m sure that I, I sang the national anthem to open a CU basketball game once.

Joy: Oh, that’s awesome. That’s cool.

Claire: One time in middle school me and my girlfriends were on the front page of the paper ice skating.

Joy: Oh, that’s cute.

Claire: And my 7th grade math teacher taped it to the front of the math room door. So you know, that was fun. So just little stuff like that. It’s not like I’ve ever had a real, like, oh I’m famous.

Joy: We got some good ones. Okay, let’s start off with an email. This is from Veronica. “Hey Joy and Claire, for your prompt this week I wanted to share my 15 minutes of fame. I have two, but I’ll keep them quick. Growing up in LA (I’m sure you’re jealous Joy)” – Yes, I am!  “My dad directed commercials. Mostly Mattel ( I had every Barbie and Polly Pocket) and McDonalds happy meal commercials. I got to be in the Halloween commercial that can still be found on YouTube. Photos attached of me dressed as a purple witch including one of Ronald holding me gently in his arms. He was actually a really nice man named Jack, and I have a ton of pictures of me playing Chinese Checkers, hula dancing, and playing piano with him. It was an interesting childhood to say the least. After retiring from directing commercials, my dad had a photography studio doing mostly commercial photos and building websites. He roped me into being a model for a Bluetooth microphone, and they included me on their packaging. Just checked and there’s still a picture of me in the description on Amazon. A few years ago, a friend of a friend was in an Apple store and sent her a picture of the box asking if it was me. Small moments, but those are my claims to fame.” And she included some pictures we’ll put when this episode comes out of her with Ronald McDonald holding her, it’s so cute. And the picture she included of the Bluetooth packaging, she looks like she’s just enjoying her Bluetooth speakers while she’s on her laptop. Oh, that’s so great. Thank you, Veronica. Alright, this one the title is “My 15 minutes of fame on TRL with Carson Daly.”

Claire: Oh, you guys better know this is the first one Joy read I’m sure when it came in.

Joy: What? So good!

Melissa [recording]: Hi guys, this is Melissa in the Chicago area. I immediately had to respond to your 15 minutes of fame question because I will be proud of this until my dying day. I believe this was the summer of 2000. My friend and I were in New York for a summer internship at the United Nations, and we stood in line in Times Square and got to be in the studio audience for Total Request Live, aka TRL with Carson Daly. We were on TV but it was back in the day before cell phones, so we had to call my mom from a pay phone after the show was taped live to tell her to tape – as in tape the VHS tape – and tape for us the rebroadcast of the show that night so that we could see ourselves on TV. My mom still has that VHS tape to this day, and it’s pretty amazing and I will always remember my half an hour or however long that show was of fame with Carson Daly on TRL. Thanks guys, love the show.

Claire: Oh my gosh. 90’s dreams are made of right there.

Joy: 90’s dreams. I wonder if there’s any celebrities on that TRL episode.

Claire: Like Lance Bass. If I could just get on TRL with N Sync they would see me and choose me as their wife.

Joy: For sure. For sure. You have no idea what you’re missing. You just need to meet me.

Claire: Right, you’ll just see me, see my screaming face in a crowd and the clouds will open up.

Joy: Oh my gosh. How many people really think that? Okay, this is from our favorite Tina in Brooklyn. “Morning ladies. Maybe it doesn’t count because I was always around celebs” because this is the one who worked at the Today Show, “but these are a couple of standouts. I hope this provides some laughs.”

Tina [recording]: Good morning Joy and Claire. It’s Tina from Brooklyn. And of course you know I have a good story from the Today Show. So one day I’m in the kitchen and just doing my thing. Hilary Swank walks in and she’s like, “Oh my God. Look at your biceps.” She’s like, “Let’s arm wrestle.” And I was like, “No, I’m not arm wrestling you.” Long story short, we started arm wrestling and the camera turned around and caught it and it was just absolutely ridiculous. And then another time I was asked to come and pick up Al Roker on camera. So those are my stories.

Claire: Tina, did you win the arm wrestling? You left out some crucial details. 

Joy: I know. Great details, and I love that I could hear the sirens in the background.

Claire: Just an ambulance as she was walking by.

Joy: New York sounds in the background. I know people in New York are like, yeah, that’s not great.

Claire: It’s not romantic, it’s annoying.

Joy: So she shares her picture. I’m going to post this when we release the episode with her and Hilary Swank arm wrestling.

Claire: Oh my gosh.

Joy: And Hilary Swank’s got some guns too.

Claire: Seriously.

Joy: That’s so cute. That’s the cutest thing. I love that she picked up Al Roker. Oh my gosh, okay. This is from Laura.

Laura [recording]: Hi Joy and Claire, this is Laura from Canada. I’m just responding to your 15 minutes of fame questions from last week’s episode. So a few years back the Amazing Race Canada actually came to Winnipeg, and I was an extra in the crowd. I can confirm when it says 7th, 8th, 9th try that is the case. However, my actual moment of fame was they would cut to my face reacting to the challenges. The people had to sing, and when the one group came down one of the guys ended up kissing me and that made it onto the television. And he goes, “I kissed a few babes on the way out.” And then I had to say, “Not now, babes. Got to go meet my boyfriend John Montgomery.”

Claire: Oh my gosh, that’s so random but I love it.

Joy: It’s so random and I love it. That’s so good.

Claire: I have definitely heard that going to the tapings of those is really pretty anticlimactic.

Joy: Really?

Claire: They came to Denver several years ago, and everyone I knew, like a lot of CrossFit people went. And they were like, “Oh yeah, we were out there until like 3 in the morning. It was just take after take after take.”

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: But yeah, that’s hilarious.

Joy: Okay, this is great. This is great. This one’s from Kelly. And also, I love the picture proof.

Kelly [recording]: Hi Joy and Claire, my 15 minutes of fame is when I was in college at Florida State, Joe Biden was the Vice President and he came to speak. And when I was waiting in line with my friend and we got checked in, they asked us if we wanted to go sit on the stage. So from the crowd as you check in, they hand selected certain people and placed you in a certain way so that when you’re on the news you look a certain way. It looks a certain way behind him. And so when my family and everyone turned on the news, I was there right to his right watching as he spoke. And at the end, he was really nice and he came up to all of us because you’re watched by secret service and you can’t leave until he leaves. And he took pictures with all of us. It was just so nice and took time even though he was late to grab us and group and take pictures. Even now, my boyfriend at the time was so mad because he was so supposed to go and he offered me the ticket because he’s heard him speak before. And then I text him and was like, “Hey, turn on the news, you’re going to see me on stage here.” So he still does not forget that, especially now that he is the President. Have a good day.

Joy: Oh I love that. And it’s proof that they actually set up behind them.

Claire: Yes, totally. Brandon met Joe Biden at a coffee shop in Denver.

Joy: That’s right!

Claire: In like 2016 maybe… or 2015. No, 2014-2015 because that’s when he was the Vice President. I met Michelle Obama, did you know that?

Joy: No, where?

Claire: When Obama was running for President the first time, I was in college and she came as a campaign stop to the CU campus. And that morning I was getting to campus early to study for a test and I saw them setting everything up and I was like, “What is this for?” And they were like, “Oh this going to be the line to meet Michelle Obama.” And I was like, “Can I get in line now?” “Yeah sure.” So I was the first one in line, and I stood there for legitimately five hours.

Joy: No way.

Claire: But I was coming to campus to study, so I just sat there and studied instead. Yeah. And I met Michelle Obama. She smells great. 

Joy: I bet you she smells great.

Claire: Yep.

Joy: Celebrities that smell great. Bob Harper. I’ve hugged him, smells great. Who else did I hug that smelled great? I almost said Oprah, but I’m like no, I’ve heard she smells great.

Claire: No, every single time this comes up we bring up how we’re pretty good Oprah smells good.

Joy: She would smell so good. Oh my gosh, okay. That was so great. And also picture proof is the best. Alright, this next one is from Natasha.

Natasha [recording]: Hi Joy and Claire, this is Natasha from the San Francisco Bay area. I used to live in Los Angeles for a long time, so I ended up participating in a couple of little-seen reality shows. One of them was a team competition show where we built large Rube Goldberg machines, and that was super fun. And the other show was a Bachelor-esque type show where basically 20 of us showed up to date a guy. It was actually a really terrible experience. Didn’t like the guy, they made us stay up all night, we weren’t allowed to put on a sweater when it got cold, and was happy basically to go home quickly from that experience. But it was very weird to see yourself on TV. Thanks.

Joy: That would be so hard if you’re just like, “I want to go. Get me off this reality show.” I want to see Natasha if you have clips of it. I want to see what the show was. This is another – [gasps] Oh, I love this so much. Okay, this one is – I hope I’m saying her name right – Tyisha. “Hey Joy and Claire, my 15 minutes of fame story is this. I’m a musician, and in 2017 I did a cover of “Don’t You Be Santa” by The Killers for charity. My friend Jo and I recorded it in our apartment. Our moms, who are also friends and avid Catholics, were so disappointed we didn’t do something religious. The song ended up in the local newspaper next to Mack Miller and a few other big names. My mom called my partner to have his dad frame it for her. Since then I’ve been able to use my music to support causes I care about and gotten a reputation of being really silly in real life. The song is now a joke because it’s my only digitally streaming work for the past four years, and I’m hoping to fix that this year. Love your podcast and all that you do. I for one would be super sad to see you leave Instagram, but completely understand the pull to get out of there. Love, Ty.” Oh, It’s Ty. “P.s. Links to the song and newspaper article.” So I asked her if I could play this as the outro. She hasn’t responded yet as of this recording, but I’m super wanting to play it for you. It’s really a cool song, and she looks awesome in the photo. Alright, this is from, let’s do two, God this one’s so good. Okay, three more, three more. Real quick. This one’s from Molly.

Molly [recording]: Hey Joy and Claire, this is Molly calling to tell you about my 15 minutes of fame. When I was in first grade, I lived in Omaha, Nebraska and the zoo there was doing a donation drive so that they could get some new wallabies for their new wallaby habitat. I gave them $1 and in response I got a really cool letter and a photo and an invitation to come and watch the zoo release their new wallabies into their habitat. So I got to miss school that day. My mom took me, and I thought I was just going to get to watch, but at the last minute they pulled me into the wallaby pin and I got to actually open one of the big dog kennels that had a wallaby in it and watch it hop out into its habitat. And I got interviewed by the news, and first grade Molly just thought that was the coolest thing in the world. I have no idea what I said on the news. It was so long ago, but it’s a pretty cool memory to have. Thanks so much, y’all. Bye bye.

Joy: That is so cute.

Claire: That is the epitome of 15 minutes of fame. Got pulled into the wallaby pin.

Joy: You’re in first grade. You get interviewed by the news. You’re so excited. That is the cutest thing.

Claire: Oh my gosh, that’s adorable. Wallabies of all things.

Joy: So good. This one is probably one of my faves. Alright, this is from Ellen.

Ellen [recording]: Hey Joy, hey Claire. This is Ellen talking about my 15 minutes of fame. So actually about a year ago I submitted a question to CNN to ask the candidates for the democrat presidential election a question. Really, I just wanted to go to the town hall. I didn’t actually want to ask the question, but they called me and said, “Hey, you had a really good question. We want you to ask it to former Vice President Joe Biden.” And obviously I was peeing my pants a little bit, but I go and there was about 20 other people who were there to ask questions so I didn’t think I was going to go. But at the very last minute, they said, “Hey, you’re up.” And I go and ask Joe Biden a question. He didn’t answer it because he’s a politician. But yeah, I actually talked to the President-Elect, and I like to think I got him elected. And also, fun fact, after that day Trump did kind of subtweet me and tweeted about the question I asked and addressed it in his own Trump way. So yeah, that’s my 15 minutes of fame.

Joy: That is so cool.

Claire: I’m kind of shocked by how many people have met Joe Biden.

Joy: I know, so many people have met Joe Biden.

Claire: That’s amazing.

Joy: Did you see this picture of her? I’m going to post this too. Yeah, she looks so pretty. And then she actually also posted the tweet. She sent us a screenshot of the tweet that Trump responded to.

Claire: In all caps.

Joy: In all caps, of course. That’s so funny. That was so, so great. Okay, last one is from Tilly.

Tilly [recording]: Hey Joy and Claire, it’s Tilly calling with one of many 15 minutes of fame stories. This one happened a couple years ago. It was my birthday weekend and I got tickets to see Wayne Brady when he was in town at the Paramount Theatre doing a standup show, very Who’s Line is it Anyway-esque. at the beginning of the show, we all get little pieces of paper that said something like, “Have a question for Wayne? Write it down.” I was feeling extra gutsy on my birthday weekend, and so on my sheet of paper I wrote, “Do you think you could kiss me on or near the mouth since it’s my birthday?” And so I submitted the question. About halfway through the show got called up on stage for Wayne Brady to sing me a song and kiss me on or near the mouth in front of everybody at the Paramount Theatre. So that’s one of my 15 minutes of fame stories. Hopefully I can tell some more soon. Take care, bye.

Joy: On or near the mouth.

Claire: That’s so specific.

Joy: I know Tilly, so I’m going to text her right now. Where did Wayne Brady kiss you?

Claire: Tell her it’s our resident cupcake extraordinaire baker. That is so specific, I love it so much. On or near.

Joy: Just maybe a little bit, just a little bit, little kiss. Thank you, guys. That was such a much-needed comedy relief. Thank you for the laughs. You guys are the best. What is our question for next week? Or do we have one? Claire’s like –

Claire: Guys, sometimes I get to this part of the show, and I’m like – oh no, next week. I was so worried about your 15 minutes of fame. Okay, here’s the question we’re going to do. 

Joy: Okay… okay, Tilly just texted me back and she says, “Near the mouth. I have a video. Let me find it.”

Claire: That’s amazing. Alright, we will post that video for sure. Okay, so for next week’s question, this is again a little bit random. But I’m really enjoying these random questions that are just sort of like insights into people’s lives.

Joy: For sure.

Claire: So as you guys know, we talk a lot about rituals. We talk a lot about our habits that we do. I want to know if you guys have any superstitions. Especially if you have any rituals that go around those superstitions.

Joy: Oh my God, I have one.

Claire: What is yours? Tell us now.

Joy: Before I get on a plane,  I do this – way back in the day, I was trained in Reiki. And I do this Reiki symbol before I get on the plane. When you’re in the doorway, I do it very, very subtly. 

Claire: You do a subtle Reiki symbol.

Joy: I do a subtle Reiki thing. It’s a symbol with your hand, and then I touch the side of the plane.

Claire: You like pope cross the plane before you get on.

Joy: [laughing] Yep, I totally pope cross. 

Claire: It will not surprise you guys that I don’t think I have any. But what is you or your husband or something. Does he wear is stinky game day socks that he’s never washed because the Browns have never lost when he’s wearing his gameday socks.

Joy: Oh my God, we’re going to get so many sports ones.

Claire: Totally.

Joy: I love it, I love it so much.

Claire: So please tell us your weird superstition or weird thing that you do. You can send us a voice memo to You can write it in an email and we’ll just read the email. Or you can go to our Instagram account @joyandclaire_. Click the “contact us” button. That will take you to a Google Voice mail, and you can just leave it in a message. Can’t wait to hear them. Another random question. I love hearing insights into you guys’ life. Please send them. We can’t wait to tell what they are. I feel like Joy is especially excited about this one.

Joy: I’m so excited. This is going to be great. Don’t let me down. Alright guys, another week of just taking it one day at a time. I was reminded that this past week. Let’s just stay right where we are, really take it one day at a time. Alright, deep thoughts.

Claire: Alright guys, talk to you next week.

Joy: Okay, bye.

Claire: Bye.

Happy 2021! New Year’s Eve plans, Joy’s Graves’ disease updates, listener voice memos!



instagram: joyandclaire_

Joy: Hey guys, this is Joy.

Claire: And this is Claire.

Joy: Joy and Claire. It’s 2021, happy New Year!

Claire: Welcome to 2021.

Joy: Welcome. We are so glad that our voices are in your ears for 2021. Hopefully it’s been good so far. It’s only the 4th when we’re recording this. Nothing terrible has happened yet. I know we’re all kind of holding our breath.

Claire: Oh my gosh, I know. I know. We’ve just got to wait and see. We’re a whole week into the year. How was your New Year? What did you do?

Joy: It was great. How was your New Year’s Eve? Because we did the same thing basically.

Claire: I know.

Joy: How did you like your drive-thru light situation? In case you missed last week’s [episode], Claire and I both went to this light show where you go through this drive-thru display –

Claire: Parking lot basically.

Joy: – of lights. And it’s really cute. And they have the lights orchestrated to a radio channel that’s playing Christmas music, so it’s really cute. I thought it was great. We drove in and no one was there. And the second we got in, tons of cars came behind us. We were like, oh my gosh, we just missed it. But it was so great. It was super cute. The lights were fun. You kind of drive through this dome of lights.

Claire: Yeah, like a tunnel?

Joy: Yeah, like a tunnel of lights. 

Claire: I have a feeling that they were probably the exact same set up. Except that – okay, we went to the one at Water World. And it was sort of unclear. So Water World has two entrances, a north one and an east one. And Google Maps just automatically takes you to the north one. Well the north entrance was a COVID testing site.

Joy: Oh no. [laughing]

Claire: So we got stuck in this – if you’ve been to a drive-thru COVID testing –

Joy: Oh yeah, we have them in our business.

Claire: It’s just a maze of cones and lines. 

Joy: You can’t get through, yeah.

Claire: So you can’t get through. We had to spend five minutes, or more than that, just navigating this COVID testing. And as we were pulling in, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so funny. It looks like a COVID testing site.” Then I was like, “This is a COVID testing site.” We went to the wrong side of the parking lot. Because it just looked like there were cars lining up, and the lights were right there. We couldn’t tell the lights were on the other side.

Joy: The question is how many people have done that.

Claire: Right, a thousand. Because when we got up to the front and got to the guy, we were like, “We’re sorry, we’re here for the lights.” The ten cars in front of us had done the same thing. He was like, “Alright, go over there, turn around.” It just wasn’t well marked.

Joy: You’re like, “This was not on the ticket.”

Claire: Right, this is not on the ticket.

Joy: A COVID test while you’re going into the light show.

Claire: Exactly. So we kind of got into the COVID testing line accidentally. But it was really fun. It was perfect. Brandon had Miles sit in his lap while he drove, because you know you’re driving like 3 miles an hour around this cone thing. And then Evie sat in the front with Maxine. I just did the mom thing where I sat in the back by myself. But it was cute. It was the perfect amount of commitment for a New Year’s Eve activity with two kids. You don’t even have to get out of the car. 

Joy: Yeah, it was great, I loved it. I thought it was a cute thing to do on New Year’s Eve. Yeah, it didn’t take that long. It’s not like you’re sitting forever. It’s not like it took very long to drive through it. At the end, we went and picked up some food and then we hung out with the dogs and watched a movie and called it a night. We went to bed early, but then we woke up at midnight because there were fireworks and JT does not like fireworks. So we actually were awake on New Year’s at midnight. We didn’t stay up, we just woke up at midnight. It was really cute.

Claire: We stayed up. We watched the new Wonder Woman.

Joy: Yeah, how’d you like it?

Claire: It was fine.

Joy: Is it what I said where you were kind of like, it was a lot of action, a lot of pretty people, but not life-changing?

Claire: Yeah, I liked the first one a lot better. I thought the plot was a lot more interesting. I thought the villain was a lot more interesting. This one was like, eh, it was fine. Not my favorite super hero movie.

Joy: What did you think about Kristen Wiig being a villain?

Claire: I mean, I love her. But I think the way the movie was marketed, they marketed it as if she was the bad guy. She really wasn’t. The other guy, the wish guy was the bad guy.

Joy: Yeah, the other guy was the bad guy, but she was kind of this quasi-villain.

Claire: She just kind of had this anti-hero journey, but it was just not – they had one really short fight scene.

Joy: Which was weird because it kind of came out of nowhere. Scott and I were both like, wait a minute, how did she get that costume on and then how did she all the sudden turn into this cat? 

Claire: Right, right, yeah. I mean, that part I was kind of like, okay, I thought that she was going to be a little more –

Joy: A little more prominent, yeah.

Claire: Of an evil master mind, rather than just sort of this kid who is made fun of in high school and grows up to want to be a Cheetah Girl.

Joy: Okay, so how was your Christmas? Did you get any good gifts?

Claire: Didn’t we already talk about Christmas on the last one?

Joy: No, we didn’t talk about gifts, did we?

Claire: Brandon got me a necklace from my favorite jeweler. Her name is Claire Spmmers Buck. She’s out of Austin, and I have like five necklaces from her. I love her stuff. She just is very cute and simplistic and a lot of metal work, but very simple. Minimalist, I would call it, but really pretty. So I got a cute necklace and some mugs. I always love a good mug.

Joy: Always love a good mug.

Claire: I really do. Like people being like, “Oh I got another scarf” or whatever. I really love mugs so much. And then, my big thing is that Brandon and Maxine redecorated and cleaned out our basement guest room. So now I have a home office. I’ve been working in my bedroom for the last ten months. And Maxine painted this really cute mural, and they did this whole thing. So it’s been nice. I’m sitting in here right now. It’s been nice because I have my own little space.

Joy: Nice background for all your calls.

Claire: I know. Honestly, I was thinking about this. Ever since Brandon and I moved in together, which was in 2011 I guess. Since before then, since I left college, I’ve never had my own – because even in the interim between when I lived with Brandon, I guess I had my own room one time. But I even lived in a shared room. I haven’t had my own room in a house at all. I haven’t had an office. Brandon and I have always shared a room. If we’ve had an extra room, it was always Brandon’s office because he was in school. I’ve never had, as an adult, my own space in a house. So this feels really cool to be like this is my space, my room, it’s decorated for me, and I can keep my stuff in here. I mean, obviously I have a bedroom, but I share it with Brandon, and our bedroom’s really pretty small. So it feels good to be like look at my cute little room.

Joy: I love it. I know, you’re like, “This is my room. Let me show you my toys.”

Claire: Exactly. I’m going to hang out here and play Mall Madness or something.

Joy: [laughing] I also want to say happy anniversary.

Claire: Oh yeah, today’s our 7th anniversary, January 4th.

Joy: I had to go down a little memory lane this morning because I was like, oh my gosh, I totally remember you being at Beth’s house and you trying on two wedding dresses. And you were like, “Which one should I wear?” I totally remember that. And I just remember driving to your wedding, and it was so snowy, and we had to drive so slow.

Claire: It was a blizzard.

Joy: Yeah, it was – when I say blizzard, it was a blizzard. We had to drive so slow to Boulder. Barely could park and get out without my high heels just – 

Claire: For me, it was this magical, beautiful snow globe. For everyone else, they were like, “I can’t believe you made me drive to Boulder in the middle of the biggest freaking blizzard of the year.”

Joy: When everyone got it, we were all like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I made it.” Everyone was just so excited. And I remember your dress almost caught fire on the candles on the ground.

Claire: Yeah, uh huh. That was –

Joy: A then a hot chocolate bar.

Claire: Yes, instead of a wedding cake, we did a hot chocolate bar. Yeah, it was memorable. It feels like it was not that long ago, but also like it was a really, really, really long time ago. We got married on 1-4-14. The 7th anniversary is the copper and wool anniversary. But normally we don’t really do big anniversary gifts because we just had Christmas, so it feels a little redundant to be like, “And here’s an anniversary present.” I don’t think I got him anything last year. I definitely didn’t get him anything this year. But we are going to go this weekend and stay at the St Julien in Boulder, which is this really fancy hotel, and we’re just going to spend the night there this weekend and sit in our hotel room and eat sushi.

Joy: That’s so great, that’s so great. I also want to know, people out there who have birthdays really close to Christmas how you handle it.  One of my best friends has a birthday on the 28th. And I always make sure to send her a birthday present completely separate from a Christmas present because I know it must suck to, “Oh, well, Christmas and birthday combined.”

Claire: Totally.

Joy: This is your Christmas and birthday present. You must always feel like everybody just combines your birthday together. I want to hear some sob stories from people. Or if you have a good, like, hey this is how I’ve always done it.

Claire: Or I feel like sometimes your family, like you did for your friend, I have friends who have kids whose birthdays are right around Christmas, and they go way out of their way to make this huge deal of their birthday. Probably more so than they would at another time of year. So maybe it kind of –

Joy: Works in their favor, yeah. So I want to give you guys a quick update because so many people have been really kind about being like, “This is really helpful.” So my purpose in sharing is not to be droning on and on about all the stuff going on with my health but more to help you guys if you’re going through something similar or if you’re just not sure what to do when you’re experiencing something like this. So recently I had – I can’t even remember the last time that I updated you guys. But I think I had seen my naturopath a couple of times and some of the blood work that came back from one of the many blood tests I’ve done was still high for my liver. They wanted to recheck my liver, and they were like, “Your liver’s still high.” But my liver has dropped – I’m going to really simplify it because there’s these two panels that they look at, but they both have dropped 100 points since the beginning of November. Which is huge. It’s still high. It’s still over the minimum, but they were like, “We just want to do an ultrasound because your liver is still not looking good.” So that’s when I went and got this ultrasound, and that came back and they were like,  “Well you have this” – they called it a “starry sky.” I don’t really know what that means other than, it’s supposedly inflammation of your liver. But your liver looks inflamed, and they call it a starry sky on the ultrasound. so I was like, “Oh great.” So that day I was so frustrated because they were like, “We’re going to order more blood tests.” I was about to hit the fan. I was like, you want me to do another blood test? I’ve done probably ten in the past month. My arms can’t take it anymore. I was like, oh my gosh. I just remember that day when she’s like – my primary care doctor is awesome. I love her. She’s super supportive. She knows me. She knows that I’m freaked out by all this. And she’s like, “I ran your ultrasound by one of the GI docs.” And I work for Kaiser, so I have Kaiser insurance and it’s all integrated. They can just email a GI doc the same day. They all work together. Which is great and it’s really beneficial because everything happens so fast. You don’t have to wait to schedule with the GI or schedule with the –

Claire: Right, you don’t have to wait for them to get your insurance approval through the scheduler and the whole thing.

Joy: Exactly. That’s the huge benefit of working for them and having this insurance. So she’s like, “I just ran it by one of our GI docs, and he said he highly recommends that you do not do naturopathic medicine and that you just go the western route.”

Claire: Which, the western route is just kill your thyroid and take –

Joy: Let me back up real quick because I can’t remember if I told you guys this. When I met with an endocrinologist who was the one who interpreted my blood tests. Was that the first thing that I had? Oh no, no, no, no. My scan, when I scanned my thyroid. So she interpreted the thyroid scan and all my tests. And when I first met with her, she was like, “You’re not a candidate.” There’s three treatments you can have for hyperthyroidism. One is medication, one is iodine radiation, and one is to remove your thyroid. I’m not a candidate for medication or removal because my liver labs are not good and so the medication’s going to harm your liver. And the surgery, they’re like, no one’s going to put you under anesthesia with bad liver labs. So she’s like, “Really your only option is iodine radiation.” She really encouraged that, obviously. She said, ‘”I’ve never seen someone be helped by naturopathic medicine for Grave’s Disease.” And I just held my breath, and I’m like, “Okay.” I mean, I know they come from such a good place, I know it, and they want to give you all the information as possible. But the thought of zapping my thyroid and having to be on medication for the rest of my life is terrifying to me. So I told my primary care physician this, and she was like, “I totally get it. I totally understand.” And again, this is the doctor who’s known me since I’ve worked at Kaiser for 6.5 years. She knows me through this whole time. So this GI doc was looking at my labs and saying she should just go the western route, AKA zap your thyroid. I was like, absolutely not. I want to just put a caveat to that. I am obviously not against western medicine. I work for western medicine. But from my experience, not personal to any of these doctors, but my personal experience was like, okay, so you don’t even know me and you just looked at a lab – and I get that that’s what you’re trained to do is look at something and be like, “Wow, that’s not good, she needs to go western.” But to not even say, “Sure, let her try this for 6-8 months,” but instead to be like, “She needs to stop doing naturopathic medicine.” I know in my heart I’m going to keep doing naturopathic medicine because it’s working. But to hear from a doctor – I was upset. I know in my heart that I can get myself better, but to hear a medical professional just poo pooing your approach. I don’t think he even knows what I’m doing. And does he even know that my naturopath has a medical degree? She went to med school. I’m not seeing someone who’s rubbing crystals on me and burning sage. I’m going to a doctor, and you don’t understand the approach that she’s taking. How dare you just make a call that’s something I have to live with for the rest of my life. So that’s been kind of a roller coaster. Because truly any time I talk to one of these doctors, I just email everything to my naturopath and I’m like, “Just so you know, this is what they’re saying,” and she’s like, “That’s fine. This is just not in their paradigm. They don’t understand. I get that all the time. We’re going to stay the course.” They don’t see or want to talk to me about how my symptoms have improved. My appetite is up, I’m eating all the time, my sleep is way better, I don’t have the shakes anymore, my liver labs drop 100 points. Mind you, that has happened in 5-6 weeks. They’re not looking at that. They’re just like, “Nope.” 

Claire: And that’s the biggest thing you keep saying is like, “Listen, I’m not opposed to western medicine. I’m not anti-western medicine, but I’m anti – 

Joy: I’m just anti the killing of my thyroid.

Claire: Well, yeah. You’re just anti that being Plan A.

Joy: Yeah. I’m anti that being Plan A.

Claire: And that’s fine. It’s not life or death if you get this resolved in the next two or three days. 

Joy: Nope.

Claire: I think we talked about this last time a little bit, but the people that Brandon works with at his job – As you guys know, Brandon’s a nurse. He used to work on the telemetry. Now he works in the OR. And the hospital he works at is the only hospital in our town that really accepts Medicare and Medicaid, so he gets a lot of people who haven’t had the best access to healthcare and education throughout their lives. And say what you will about people and their own personal choices, but for the most part a lot of these people are dealing with lifelong access issues to the types of things that a lot of us take for granted. And so a lot of them are in really, really poor health. I talk to him a lot about the people he sees who they are really within a couple of days or a couple of weeks, if a couple of months at the most, of irreversible damage that is going to be life-threatening. And more than that, they are not necessarily in a position, whether that be with their lifestyle or financially or their living situation or their mental capacity, to take on lifestyle changes.

Joy: Right, right.

Claire: Those are the types of people that, yeah, let’s give that medication fix where they just have to take the pill for the rest of their lives. Let’s not burden them with these additional issues and additional expenses and things.

Joy: Yeah, exactly.

Claire: That is an important option for a lot, if not honestly most, people.

Joy: Most people, absolutely, absolutely.

Claire: And that’s not speaking down about those people.

Joy: No, no, no.

Claire: The average person that a doctor sees with your type of labs is the type of person who – not to overstate the severity of Joy’s labs, but after showing them to Brandon, Brandon was like, “Yeah, I’ve seen worse labs than this but with people who are in in-patient hospital care.” So the majority of people who have this type of condition are not, how do I put this? I feel like most of your practitioners have probably been surprised. Like, wait a minute, you’re so “healthy,” how are these your numbers?

Joy: Exactly, exactly.

Claire: But when you see people with numbers like that, a lot of the time there’s obviously other stuff going on here. These are not numbers that are indicative of a healthy lifestyle and therefore a lifestyle change or a lifestyle prescription, if you will, is probably not going to be effective for this person. Let’s give them the drugs because that is what’s going to be the best fit for them.

Joy: Sure.

Claire: To what you’re saying is like, if they knew you and could see your lifestyle and like, no, actually a lifestyle change and taking things a little bit slower and trying out a few other options is actually a good fit for this person. So let’s just give it a shot. You’re not going to collapse in 48 hours if action isn’t taken.

Joy: Exactly, yeah. And I think that’s the other thing that really made me feel good when I told my primary care physician. I said, “With all respect, I’m going to keep going with the naturopath. I so appreciate your help. I’ll keep in touch. We’re going to get labs retested in February, so I’ll talk to you in a couple months.” And she wrote me back and she was like, “Joy, I know you and I would tell you if I thought you were making the wrong choice.” Which I thought was so cool because, again, she knows me, she knows how determined I am and committed I am. When I talk to Dr. Cook, my naturopath, she was very clear in our first visit that if you are not committed to a lifestyle change, I can’t help you, I’m not going to take you as a patient. Naturopathic medicine is definitely the slower and harder way to go. Definitely the slower and harder way to go. Long term, I want to be able to look back in a year and be like, I am so glad I put in the time and the work instead of going the route of zapping my thyroid and in 10-15 years from now having horrible side effects from that. Who knows what could happen? I just don’t want to go that route. I know a lot of women out there have gone that route and maybe it’s worked for you. Like you said, Claire, I don’t want that to be my Plan A, and I’m so committed to not having it be my Plan A. So that’s the update. I think the hardest part for me right now is – that’s why I woke up on January 1st and I was like, you know what, I really want to focus this year on one day at a time because I cannot think about the future. I can’t think about, well what if in 8 months this doesn’t work. I just can’t do that to myself. Like we were talking about last episode, even if we think 2021’s going to be so much better than 2020, let us just believe this for today. And so that’s kind of where I’m at. Just for today. Objectively, I feel good. I’m been going to the gym –

Claire: I think it’s encouraging that your numbers are improving. And that’s the other thing, it’s not like the needle isn’t moving.

Joy: Right. Yeah, and my doctor was like – because my liver labs have really improved. My thyroid has stayed exactly the same. But she said, “Joy” – this is the naturopath. She said, “The liver is a very resilient organ, it will always respond first. The thyroid just takes a little bit more time to catch up.” She’s treating everything. I feel different, I feel better taking out the dairy and the fruit/sugar combo and all that, so I’m going to stay the course. Thank you guys so much for sending in your support and stories. I love hearing from you about anything that’s going on with you health-wise. I feel like knowing that there’s other people out there going through stuff is really encouraging, so please feel free to just email me and be like, “Hey, I’m going through the same thing.”

Claire: Or even just, I feel like everybody who’s emailed to say, “I have hypothyroidism” or Lyme or whatever the situation may be. We’ve gotten a lot of great DMs from people who are like, “Yeah, this is what they told me for my Crohn’s Disease, that I could only take this medication and have all these side effects, but I was able to manage it with a naturopath and under the supervision of my physician.” And I think about like, we talked about this a little bit recently. I kind of think about people, their reaction to my home birth where it was like they didn’t know what a true, modern home birth attended by midwives, what it really looks like. My in-laws, once I explained it to them they were on board. But at first when you heard “home birth,” it was like, “You’re going to give birth in a drum circle.” I was like, no, no, no, no. That’s not what that means. And so I think it’s just that perception of naturopaths and natural medicine.

Joy: And it’s not familiar to them, yeah. I feel like we’ve lost listeners – or a listener – who got so mad that you had a home birth. She was so offended that she stopped listening.

Claire: And spammed us for weeks.

Joy: And spammed us, yeah. I just feel like this is something that is such a personal choice, you really cannot judge someone else’s journey. I just encourage people who maybe disagree, you don’t need to agree.

Claire: You don’t need to agree. You absolutely do not need to agree. We are not asking even for you to agree.

Joy: I am not requesting feedback. Which, that’s something from, what’s her name? Melissa Hartwig. I guess she said that all the time on her Instagram page, and someone messaged me – it was starting, it wasn’t a lot. But I was just like, “My heart can’t handle this you guys.” I’m very sensitive to this stuff. Any shred of negativity sends me over the edge, I can’t take it. I just remember someone said, “Oh, you should be like Melissa Hartwig and be like, ‘I’m not requesting feedback.'” So that’s my tagline right now. Any time I talk about my health, not requesting feedback. Thank you, goodbye.

Claire: Let’s talk about BluBlox. It’s a new year.

Joy: New year, new you.

Claire: Same great sponsor. We love BluBlox, we love their glasses. The discount code is “JOY.” Get yourself some blue light blocking glasses. They have so many great frames. I love all their styles. They’ve also had some really good sales recently. Not saying to not use our discount code, but if you’re not ready to take the plunge right now, maybe at least go sign up for their newsletter and get on their mailing list because they had some really good deals over the holidays and they tend to have some good sales. So just keep an eye out. Hahaha, fish and pun. Get it? They have all different types of lenses. Lenses that are better for daytime, lenses that are better for night time. You can have prescription lenses put in. You can send in your own frames if you really just love your frames and don’t want new ones, if you can’t part with them. And as a reminder, they’re based in Australia, so you’re not going to get two-day shipping, but you really get what you pay for. We love this brand. We would not be referring you still to this Australian expensive blue light blocking glasses brand if we didn’t truly think that their product was amazing and we didn’t love the company.

Joy: They’re such good people.

Claire: They’re such good people. And as a reminder, when you purchase a pair of BluBlox glasses, they will donate a pair of glasses to someone in need through their non-profit partner. Go to The discount code is “JOY.” Thank you for supporting the sponsors who support our podcast.

Joy: And just a quick note, I’m on their website right now, and I am digging the Melissa computer classes. They’re so cute. There’s a lot of really cool styles on here. And I’m looking for a new pair of computer glasses myself. I’m digging the Galaxy computer glasses and the Melissa computer glasses. Just a hot tip from Joy. Joy’s Product Corner. So last week, we had a question for you to submit some voice memos, and the sound was great you guys. So what was the question, Claire?

Claire: Okay. So the question last week was very random and it was, what beauty tip or personal care tip have you subconsciously internalized that was from a magazine in the 90’s.

Joy: I have one. I’m laughing because I just remembered one.

Claire: That you maybe didn’t even realize that you were still holding onto. And now you’re thinking about it and you’re like, this can’t be right. We got some really great, hilarious answers.

Joy: Yeah.

Claire: Did you just think of one for yourself?

Joy: I just thought of one and it was the horse mane shampoo. Did you ever use that shampoo?

Claire: No, but I can see it in my mind’s eye.

Joy: It’s a white bottle with blue writing and it’s just like, this is horse mane shampoo. It’s going to make your hair so thick. You know, like, it’s shampoo.

Claire: Because we all want horse manes. Okay, the one I want to start with just cracked me up so much when I read it. It is from Rosy, and the subject line, which I love, “That’s why you don’t take dermatology advice from your uncle.” So this is an email – so funny. “When I was about 8 years old, I was in a grocery store and my lips felt really chapped. I wanted chap stick, and I’m sure I was whining about it. Finally my uncle picked up a tiny bit of iceberg lettuce, and said, ‘Here, press this against your lips’ as thought it was a perfect solution for chapped lips. My 8-year-old brain did not understand that he was just trying to get me to stop whining. Neither did my 9-year-old brain, 10-year-old brain, 11-year-old brain. It wasn’t until I was in my 20’s sitting in a restaurant pressing some garnish against my lips that I realized that this is bogus advice.” I thought that was hysterical because I can just see that. When I was a kid – this isn’t personal care advice, but my older brothers told me so many lies just to get me to stop whining that I didn’t think about. They told me that squirrel tails were poisonous because I wanted to touch a squirrel’s tail so bad. And they were like, “You can’t, they’re poisonous.” And I was like, “Oh yeah, that makes sense.” And finally when I was in high school, I was like, “Wait a minute.” 

Joy: [laughing] Oh, that’s so good, that’s so good. McKenna wrote in and said, “Random beauty hack. Hey Joy and Claire, love this question today. Reminded me of looking through all the old magazines, taking quizzes, and fighting over who got what cute poster of said cute boy with all my girlfriends.” Oh my God, Seventeen Magazine, for sure. I remember in junior high I had Balthazar Getty. If anybody knows who Balthazar Getty is, I’m going to be so happy. Because I think it was that movie… oh my gosh, it’s going to drive me nuts. Balthazar Getty, they had magazines with all your favorite heart throbs.

Claire: Oh my gosh, like Tiger Beat or whatever.

Joy: Oh my gosh. And the posters were amazing.

Claire: And you only bought it for the poster, let’s be honest.

Joy: Totally. And when I was 8 years old, I had my house plastered with Madonna. Plastered. So Balthazar Getty was in Young Guns, which was the hottest of the hot movie with Kiefer Sutherland, Emilio Estevez, Lou Diamond Phillips. I remember me and my little girlfriends would be like, “Emilio Estevez is my boyfriend.” “Kiefer Sutherland is my boyfriend.” And I was like, “Okay fine, I’ll get Balthazar Getty,” and I didn’t even know who he was, but I just wanted a boyfriend. Oh my God, that’s so funny. Sorry, I just had to go on that tangent.

Claire: Back to the email.

Joy: Okay. “One that I still do to this day” – this is the email – “is that I brush my teeth both in the morning and night before I wash my face. Apparently this is supposed to prevent you from getting chin acne. I have no idea if it’s true, but don’t think I will break this habit any time soon. One that I do not nor have ever done but was in a lot of magazines still makes me cringe at the thought that there were young girls that did this and really hope karma caught up to whoever spread this. I remember reading that it was amazing for your skin acne, glow, aging, you name it to wash your face with your pee. Specifically your morning pee as it is the most pure. Also thought I would see if I could dig up an old article, but apparently this is still a thing.” And she sent an article.

Claire: Oh my goodness.

Joy: What? No. That can’t be right. Please no one do that if you have ever read that. 

Claire: If you have ever washed your face with pee, please report back and let us know how it went.

Joy: Is it really true though when you pee on a jelly fish sting that it helps? Because I just saw that from a Friends episode and I still think it’s funny.

Claire: I have no idea.

Joy: Someone who knows the truth, please let us know. Okay. 

Claire: I have heard that though.

Joy: Okay, this next one is a voicemail from Amelia.

Amelia [recording]: Hi Joy and Claire, this is Amy in Maine. I was just thinking of a weird skincare thing – skincare’s probably not the right word – thing that I do that I have no idea where I got. But basically whenever I get a pimple on my face or something, I put toothpaste on it. And specifically the original Crest with the red stripe on it that’s an opaque, light green color, mint green. That specific toothpaste, I use as pimple treatment. I don’t know why. I’ve done it for years, and I forget where I got it. I swear it works. I think. I feel like it does. That was a weird skincare thing, so I thought it was funny. Thanks for podcasting, love you guys.

Joy: That’s so funny. Toothpaste.

Claire: It dries it out or something.

Joy: Yeah, it totally dries it out, and I know exactly that toothpaste. It totally reminds me of the 90’s. It’s so great. That is a good one. I’m sure a lot of people do that one. Okay, this one is from Kari, and she said, “This is weird but seems to work.” And her voice memo is so great.

Kari [recording]: Hi Joy and Claire, my name is Kari and I’ve been a listener for about five years. The weird beauty tip I got I received when I was about 13 years old. My mom’s friend was a Mary Kay sales consultant, and my mom purchased skincare for my sister and I. We’re three years apart. My mom’s friend told us to always apply our face products in an upward motion to prevent wrinkles and to use eye cream from the outside in to prevent wrinkling around the eyes. I’ve done that ever since then. Now I’m 40, my sister is 37, and my brother’s 26. Last fall at my brother’s wedding, someone asked how much younger my sister and I were than him. So there must be a little bit of truth to it. Thanks and have a great day.”

Joy and Claire: [laughing]

Claire: Oh my gosh, I feel like everyone out there had a friend’s mom who sold Mary Kay who was the first person who ever showed you how to put on makeup.

J Oh totally. Mine was Avon though. We had an Avon lady in our neighborhood, and I love their mascara, it was so great. Avon was so fun. I loved going through the magazines and looking at all the makeup.

Claire: So great.

Joy: Well I think that’s all we have for the makeup tips. Did you have any funny ones, other ones that you thought of? I like the upward motion. I’ve totally thought about that, put moisturizer on upwards. That does not work for me.

Claire: I need to get better about just moisturizing in general. I hate the feeling of lotion. I never wear it, and I really need to because I’m getting wrinkles.

Joy: You’re just acclimated to Colorado. When I first moved here, I thought Arizona was dry – no, no, no, no, you don’t know dry. You do not know dry until you’ve been in Colorado. It’s so dry here. 

Claire: I know. I mean, I don’t know because I’ve never lived anywhere else. But no, those are all my beauty tips.

Joy: Pod tips.

Claire: The question for next week – this is another random one. But we need to know, and I really hope we get some good ones here. Please tell us about your 15 minutes of fame. I can’t wait to hear these answers. 

Joy: Just let it rip.

Claire: Your moment in the spotlight. Let it rip. Try to keep it short. Keep the audio quality good. Keep it a little bit short, write it down if you need to, practice it a little bit, rehearse it a little bit. But guys, I can’t wait to hear about the time you got pulled on stage at a Guns N’ Roses concert. I don’t care what it is, I need to know what is your 15 minutes of fame. How did it happen?

Joy: Or maybe it’s your partner. 

Claire: Or maybe it’s your partner. You or your best friend or your partner or whatever that had this unbelievable 15 minutes of fame. If you were on the news and you got interviewed because somebody broke into your dorm room or something, I don’t know. I want to know what it is. I’m trying to think of what mine is. I’ll have to think of it for next week.

Joy: Oh, that’s great. 

Claire: I mean, I feel like this podcast is my 15 minutes of fame.

Joy and Claire: [laughing]

Joy: Do you want to tell anyone else about all the Insta stories questions that you’re doing?

Claire: I’ve just been asking a lot of questions on stories about social media and how you guys consume Joy & Claire. We are really trying in 2021 to get maybe not completely off social media. Originally our plan was we want to be off social media. The more I’m learning about it, the more I’m like okay maybe there is a time and place for a little bit of social media.

Joy: For sure.

Claire: But we really want to find better ways to more intentionally connect with you guys.

Joy: Yeah, like an integrated approach.

Claire: We both want to intentionally connect. Because I feel like, you know, scrolling is good and fine, but you don’t most likely go onto Instagram to be like, “Oh let me see what Joy and Claire are up to.” You just sort of instantly see our stuff.

Joy: You kind of passively see us, yeah.

Claire: Which is fine. Brain breaks are important. That’s what social media is really for. But we want to find other places where we can connect with you guys in a true way that’s like a two-way connection and not just us putting up random stuff on the internet and on social media. Because we do have some great interactions that happen on Instagram, but for the most part it’s just howling into the void. So we are considering a Patreon. We’re considering revamping our newsletter. We’re considering revamping our website and having more of a blog component. Any or all of those things. If you follow somebody or do something or have a podcast or anything –

Joy: That you really love and are engaged.

Claire: – that you love and feel connected with through something like that. You know, we have this Facebook group that we talk about sometimes. It kind of ebbs and flows in its activity lately. 

Joy: Probably just because we don’t have a purpose for it. We just defaulted from one of the health challenges we did way back in the day, and we just kept it.

Claire: Yeah, right. And it’s like, if somebody has a question they go in there and ask it, but it hasn’t been super active for the past year or so. So if you have any great ideas or you have something else out there that you love that’s another community that you feel like might work for this community, we would love to hear your advice. Because of course we have ideas, but we want to know what you guys want. And it’s not worth it for us to just do what we want. 

Joy: Right, what do you love?

Claire: The point here is for it to be for you guys.

Joy: Yes.

Claire: If you have any ideas, please let us know.

Joy: I just love the girl who DM’d us and was like, “I will give you my life savings for you guys to go through the entire British Bakeoff series.”

Claire: That was our plan already, so…

Joy: [laughing] “I’ll give you my life savings,” I laughed so hard. I was like, “Wow, I’m so glad you liked it.”

Claire: I accept. 

Joy: I mean, I accept. Just kidding, that is so funny.

Claire: Kidding, not kidding. Alright. So thank you guys for spending another week with us. Don’t forget to support BluBlox, The discount code is “JOY.” Send us your voice memos, send us your recommendations. You know, just drop us a line, say hi. 

Joy: Yeah, say hello.

Claire: Welcome to 2021. We’re so glad you’re here, and we will talk to you next week.

Joy: Happy New Year! 

Claire: Bye.

Joy: Bye.